Chosen by one man

Ermarian

Ermarian

TNPer
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Felasia's rhetoric is getting on my nerves.

the leader [GBM, presumably] who have been chosen by one man
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I must be that man he is talking about, but I rather fear the position shall be broadly contested.

Can we have a quick roll-call of "No, I'm Spartacus" here? Think of it as a petition. We can have a precise number to counter Felasia's argument with.
 
What I mean is that Gross "appointed" GBM as interim delegate. I have no doubt that GBM have more then 1 supporter. Sorry for the confusion.
 
Felasia: Are you using the process of "interim appointment", a clause from a constitution you do not accept, to argue against GBM? Or are you arguing against this constitution itself?

You do know that this same constitution places restrictions on the interim delegate, which make up for the "appointment". And if GBM were not popularly supported, nobody would care what Gross had to say. I think this is unnecessary legalese.

Basically, you can interpret it two ways:

1.) Our constitution is toilet paper. Gross has no legal position. He is a rebel. He happened to shout "Long live GBM!" and we followed suit. No "appointment" can be spoken of.
2.) Our constitution is valid. Gross is legally empowered and mandated to appoint an interim delegate, who will have to abide by certain laws. Power is guarded by checks and balances, and elections will be held once the war is over.
 
Note: Better move this to NS discussion.

You go around NS proclaiming your "democracy" which contradict to this little fact that you leader aren't elected. The fact is still the same, GBM was appointed and doesn't represent the people of TNP. It is one man decision to appoint her. I don't recognized the constitution or GBM as delegate and only recognized the codex and L&C.

GBM was supported by z13 members that believe in the intepretion #2. Others TNPer take the interpretion #1. Me? I take number 1, but not the toilet paper, but as a piece of history.

This also raised some question of where is Gross... haven't seen him for a while.
 
Gah, GBM was originallly appointed ViceDelegate by Lewis and Clark, not Grosseschnauzer. Lewis and Clark at that time accepted the legitimacy of the Constitution.
 
Ah, but then, L&C "invalidated" the constitution (which the constitution says he can't do, but he invalidated that too, etc.), so the appointment "lost" legitimacy. Or that's what Felasia's going to say next, I suspect.

We can continue this, but basically, at this point, we're doing nothing constructive. We're drawing on two sets of laws whose legitimacy we mutually reject. In such a case, we have to move beyond words.

Let actions speak!

What has Lewis and Clark done since he came to power to preserve his delegacy? Regardless of what his Codex or our Constitution mandates, is this a state we or anyone should want TNP to remain in? By now, Lewis and Clark's "legitimacy" as elected leader is about as meaningful as the "legitimacy" as heir to the throne of King Louis XVI of France.
 
GBM was appointed by the constitution, not by Gross. When Lewis and Clark stepped away from the role for which he was elected, Gross simply followed the constitution under which GBM became delegate.

If there is one person who appointed GBM, it is Lewis and Clark, not Gross.
 
If there is one person who appointed GBM, it is Lewis and Clark, not Gross.
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Exactly.

At the time Lewis and Clark renounced the Constitution and his authority under it, GBM was the legally appointed Vice Delegate. All I did was simply recognize that fact, and state the obvious. (Something I'm often accused of doing.)

(And I've been around....but I've had to check all the RA members activity status and there are a few problems with some of them, and I was also getting my tax return done -- a lot of work when I haven't had to pay anything.)
 
I'm not Spartacus, but I play him on TV...

Gross is 100% correct.
 
I don't recognize your constitution so I can't claim that whether it have the power to appoint someone as delegate or not. What I don't understand is why you keep claiming yourself as free TNP when all of your cabinet were also within a certain group of members.

I don't intend to said that the Crimson government is different (They did appoint BIG D though), but it's quite funny when you keep shouting in RMB about "democratic government" when you're not.

Another point, the reason you selected GBM is because she have the highest influence and highest endo count. (and she is nice :P) That is hardly a democratic way of choosing a leader.
 
Felasia:
I don't recognize your constitution so I can't claim that whether it have the power to appoint someone as delegate or not. What I don't understand is why you keep claiming yourself as free TNP when all of your cabinet were also within a certain group of members.

I don't intend to said that the Crimson government is different (They did appoint BIG D though), but it's quite funny when you keep shouting in RMB about "democratic government" when you're not.

Another point, the reason you selected GBM is because she have the highest influence and highest endo count. (and she is nice :P) That is hardly a democratic way of choosing a leader.
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We didn't choose GBM. Your L&C did! And as you frequently say, he was elected.

And what is the 'certain group' that our cabinet is in?
 
Actually, highest endocount is a very democratic way of doing things.

Unfortunately, Westwind has a policy of ejecting people that is undemocratic, but people are still voting against him by withdrawing endorsements- he's fallen twenty endorsements in just under a week, while GBM is able to rapidly make up for her ejected supporters.

I guess she's just better at endotarting or something.
 
Yeah, not to mention the fact that her allied foreign force keep using switchers and L&C still got the highest endo count.

Certain Group: Same old people with no new policy or idea for TNP. I don't have the problem with the people, but no new idea is dissapointed. For Example: NPA is falling. I still remember a day that NPA used to be a notorious defense force. Now they just keep bickering about others while sitting and do nothing. (Central America was defender by TNP RDF, TITO and E-Army, but they claim that we invaded for example)
 
Westwind has the highest number because some 30 Gatesville troops are here endorsing him.

While I don't deny some of GBM's supporters have had to resort to creating new nations, I don't doubt that most are native TNPers.
 
I know for a certain that at least 3 regions with combined 20+ WA nations are here and keep switching UN and moved in. (Example would be The Chinchillawater Republic and AWP.)
 
Well, two of those regions are Gatesville and Equilism, so that would either leave on for GBM or mean there's another region here endorsing WW.

Maybe The Last Kingdom. Are they still here, or did they move on to better things?
 
The Chinchillawater Republic? Oh come on. TCR contains 75 nations and 9 of those are in the WA.

Are we supposed to have solicited their support?
 
This smells of a false flag operation to me. It's ridiculously insignificant, nobody of us has heard of it, and it seems perfectly tailored to undermine our credibility.
 
Do you want me to take a picture of at least two nations that I can confirm have move in from TCR?

AWP is far more better with the covert and during the first couple of weeks I even saw TITO here. (I should know it since I do defence with both of them :P) Anyway, I don't need to make things up. AWP and TCR both confirm to me that they're here and I'm perfectly fine with it on OOC. (Atl least with AWP)
 
Do you want me to take a picture of at least two nations that I can confirm have move in from TCR?
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I want you to tell me who of the Crimson regime told them to do so.

Flem doesn't even know who TCR is. I didn't before yesterday. I have this inkling that Great Bights Mum is likewise unaware of them.

Gleiwitz much?
 
I want you to tell me who of the Crimson regime told them to do so.
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Believe me, inviting someone to come here and endorse GBM while shouting "Endorse GBM and L&C is an ass" is not my idea of how to get L&C endo up. We never done this. It's not operation "Operation Canned Goods" like you claim because Crimson Government already confirm that both side have foreign forces here. No sense at all with why the Crimson Government should do it.

The Allied States of The live people
Received: 2 days ago

DOWN WITH LEWIS AND CLARK so gatesvilles is dumb and Great bigs mum!!!!!!ROCKS!
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The Allied States of The live people
Received: 1 day ago
Forgin Focre of TCR. 7 wars won and out plan is working right now....poor gatesville oh well.
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More of Anti-Gatesville anyway.
 
Do you want me to take a picture of at least two nations that I can confirm have move in from TCR?
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Two whole nations? Gosh. At least that would be a 100% increase on the number that were able to actually be named when this was challenged on the RMB.

Crimson order supporters are very big on shouting that GBM has "lots" of foreign supporters; when asked for specifics, numbers and names, their claims immediately become less grandiose. The best one Gatesville trooper could come up with on the RMB was "I do not know who these foreign supporters are; my superiors tell me they exist and that is good enough for me."

We have never denied that there may be representatives of other regions who are here supporting GBM. Tell us who they are, and we will happily tell them to go home: the moment Lewis and Clark does the same to his foreign supporters. This offer has been made many times, and ignored by Lewis and Clark for a very simple reason. He cannot win on native support.

I am totally confident, on native support alone, we would absolutely whup Lewis and Clark's ass.

I simply do not believe that GBM has more than a handful of foreign supporters. One thing being a longstanding resident here gives you is a long memory. I remember several scaremongering stories before about how there were "hundreds" of ADN troops flooding into TNP. When this bluff was called and exposed it led to the myth of the invisible ADN ninja warrior which is still spoken of today.
 
Crimson Government already confirm that both side have foreign forces here. No sense at all with why the Crimson Government should do it.
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Errr... not quite. The Crimson Government confirms that its own side has foreign forces - Gatesville.

What it asserts is that we do as well, and among the evidence supporting that claim is the TCR.

What you're saying is "1.) it's true because we have evidence, and 2.) there is no reason why we would use fake evidence to prove something we've already established as true, see 1.)".
 
So you're saying that GBM have never call for foreign forces to help her overthrown L&C?

Or do you want me to ask for a statement from AWP and TCR confirming this?
 
They're not like Gatesville. They don't fly their flag openly and I admit that I can't put all the names on the forum. Anybody who could do that would be a really good intel person. I can name about 3-5 persons that used to be here from TITO, but that is purely because I saw them in defence mission before.

They do used switchers. And they're good at what they do.
 
All right, enough of this. Who here is good at math? Since L&C is able to ban 200 of my supporters, in order to win I need 200 more than he has. If he is hovering around 300, that means I need 500. Since there are only a little over 500 WAs in the region, well.... you do the math.

The truth is, if we play Lewis & Clark's game of choice, "King of the Hill," we can't win without outside help. I don't care where the help comes from, I'll take it. I don't ask anyone for an ID before I hand out the rum. :jack:
 
They do used switchers
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So would I if banned, and so should anyone. By switching UN membership between nations, we are able to not only siphon off influence faster, but also block more than one space in the banlist. Are you saying we are being unfair by doing this?

Because it's interesting that, as a contrast, it would be fair to ban nations for no other reason than that they endorse GBM and not L&C. And don't even try to claim that the nations banned are all foreign supporters - you said yourself that they aren't easy to distinguish, so you don't even know how many there are.
 
Anyone endorsing GBM is doing so entirely voluntarily
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Yeah, then you should have no problem with Gatesville voluntarily endorsing L&C huh?

Considering that L&C's foriegn support includes the biggest user-created region in the game, I have no problem with GBM's foriegn support.
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Thank You, then you also agreed that Gatesville present isn't a problem?

So would I if banned, and so should anyone. By switching UN membership between nations, we are able to not only siphon off influence faster, but also block more than one space in the banlist. Are you saying we are being unfair by doing this?
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No, I'm stating the fact that most native wouldn't know how to do that. (Non-forum member at least because they would concentrate more on RP on Jolt) which mean if either they have been teached or they're a specialist.

Because it's interesting that, as a contrast, it would be fair to ban nations for no other reason than that they endorse GBM and not L&C. And don't even try to claim that the nations banned are all foreign supporters - you said yourself that they aren't easy to distinguish, so you don't even know how many there are.
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Native that attempt to overthrown the delegate lose their right as a native. They've always been a notice at the official forum about the ejection along with the right to appeal.
 
Felasia:
Native that attempt to overthrown the delegate lose their right as a native. They've always been a notice at the official forum about the ejection along with the right to appeal.
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Ahhah!

So the Delegate, in your worldview, is legitimate by definition no matter their actions, therefore it is the duty of all nations of the region to support them no matter their actions?

There's an interesting point of political philosophy!

If to be a native one must be supporting Lewis and Clark, then by your definition all nations endorsing Great Bights Mum and not Lewis and Clark, even perhaps all nations endorsing Great Bights Mum, are not natives! Indeed Great Bights Mum isn't a native!

Of course, one could go and look at the in-game pseudo-definition of native; influence.

Of the 19 WA nations in TNP with influence greater than Minnow, 17 are endorsing Great Bights Mum (of those 17, 8 are also endorsing Lewis and Clark). I don't have the resources to figure out what Minnows have more than just a little influence so I can't count for them, unfortunately. Oh, and those 19 WA nations include Great Bights Mum, who can't vote for herself, meaning only 1 non-minnow TNP WA nation is not endorsing Great Bights Mum, and Jayzer doesn't seem to be very active right now anyway. Would Great Bights Mum and the 9 non-minnows who are not endorsing Lewis and Clark be considered non-native by you?
 
Felasia:
No, I'm stating the fact that most native wouldn't know how to do that. (Non-forum member at least because they would concentrate more on RP on Jolt) which mean if either they have been teached or they're a specialist.
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So you are saying the average native is too stupid to know how to change their UN, er WA nation?
 
Oh, and those 19 WA nations include Great Bights Mum, who can't vote for herself, meaning only 1 non-minnow TNP WA nation is not endorsing Great Bights Mum, and Jayzer doesn't seem to be very active right now anyway.
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Not that it means anything, but I spoke to Jayzer while I was delegate and he does care about the region, so he decided to unendorse GBM.
 
So the Delegate, in your worldview, is legitimate by definition no matter their actions, therefore it is the duty of all nations of the region to support them no matter their actions?

There's an interesting point of political philosophy!
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They've been several notice to follow regional policy by endorsing the delegate, but when they failed to follow the policy and the delegacy is threaten then it is the delegate duty to protect the region regardless of who they are.

If to be a native one must be supporting Lewis and Clark, then by your definition all nations endorsing Great Bights Mum and not Lewis and Clark, even perhaps all nations endorsing Great Bights Mum, are not natives! Indeed Great Bights Mum isn't a native!
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When the nations refuse to accept the regional policy and attempt to overthrown the delegate. I think the matter of whether they're native or not is out of the window. Anyone who is threaten to overthrown the delegate regardless of whether they're native or not will have to accept this simple fact that they can be ejected and banned.

Of the 19 WA nations in TNP with influence greater than Minnow, 17 are endorsing Great Bights Mum (of those 17, 8 are also endorsing Lewis and Clark). I don't have the resources to figure out what Minnows have more than just a little influence so I can't count for them, unfortunately. Oh, and those 19 WA nations include Great Bights Mum, who can't vote for herself, meaning only 1 non-minnow TNP WA nation is not endorsing Great Bights Mum, and Jayzer doesn't seem to be very active right now anyway. Would Great Bights Mum and the 9 non-minnows who are not endorsing Lewis and Clark be considered non-native by you?
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Influence can be increase by three main factors: 1 Whether they're UN or not 2. How many endorsement they have 3. How long have they been in the region.

What about the other two factors? I could be a very good endo-tarter that stay here long enough and never participated in the forum? Is that mean I'm a native as well? Your defenition of native means only the old members that stay here for more then a year while endo-tarting the whole region is a native. You aren't even one so you and many other nations aren't native right?

And no, it doesn't matter whether you're a moving in from Taijitu or staying here for a long time, if the security is threaten then you can be banject.
 
So the Delegate, in your worldview, is legitimate by definition no matter their actions, therefore it is the duty of all nations of the region to support them no matter their actions?

There's an interesting point of political philosophy!
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They've been several notice to follow regional policy by endorsing the delegate, but when they failed to follow the policy and the delegacy is threaten then it is the delegate duty to protect the region regardless of who they are.
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So the Delegate, in your worldview, is legitimate by definition no matter their actions, therefore it is the duty of all nations of the region to obey the regional policy he declares?

There's an interesting point of political philosophy!

---

See what we did? We both made a reply, but not an answer. You have rephrased your argument by renaming "whim of the delegate" into "regional policy", and I have rephrased the counter-argument to update that. Shall we continue this pseudo-debate? It is amusing, but ultimately fruitless.
 
I don't really care really. As long as the conflict make the region active, whoever win will need to make sure the region is active on long term after all of this affair. Either L&C win and he used his plan to change TNP or GBM win and used her plan to revive TNP.

TAO idea is not really bad....
 
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