Outer Kharkistania
TNPer
Oh no, we need a legal code. Just a new one or a rewritten version of the old one that doesn't make references to offices that no longer exist.
Reforms to z13
- Thread starter Outer Kharkistania
- Start date
Knockavale
TNPer
I liked the old constitution. My only suggestion would be moving the delegacy between 3 trusted high influence members who wouldnt mind just being a figurehead.
Winter Vacationers
TNPer
Agreed. I think 3-4 months between delegate elections is good.
Kanbei
TNPer
I like again to repeat myself.... 
but like In say in another post if you need just a figure head then just dont make a shift in the deleguacy and let the one in power here choose the delegate. In the ancient constitution the Prime Minister will have been this one. Again only my opinion.
but like In say in another post if you need just a figure head then just dont make a shift in the deleguacy and let the one in power here choose the delegate. In the ancient constitution the Prime Minister will have been this one. Again only my opinion.
R
Romanoffia (Guest)
Guest
That's not what this Constitution does - it allows judicial review of the constitutionality of laws without a court case having to be filed and it establishes a totally independent judiciary that the delegate can't remove.
The Judiciary cannot make up any laws, just review the constitutionality of those laws (as any supreme court should be able to do and which has never been done in NS history).
If you read - my draught clearly states that only the RA can establish laws. The only difference here in terms of very unique features, is that it allows the court to initiate legal action on behalf of the people/constitution; and it creates a totally independent judiciary in which the justices serve until they resign or go inactive. That way, you have judges that don't serve at the will of the Delegate.
It's just like the courts in the US and UK. With that feature, you can't have the Delegate seed the court beyond the delegates terms - in fact, you can't have the delegate seed the court because the RA has to confirm all appointments.
Naivetry
TNPer
Actually, it has been done. In Equilism.
But I'd assume there are other regions who've tried it as well.A few suggestions for that rough draft:
1) Use numbers. Large paragraphs listing duties are hard to read and impossible to reference.
2) I still don't understand this Guardians thing. Just chunk it in with the powers of the RA.
3) Why should the Delegate get to select new Justices to the Court every term? Why not have them be appointed as life positions and only vacancies filled as you suggest? (again, a la Equilism... and the U.S.)
Typo:
- Pronouns
- he/him/his
- TNP Nation
- Zemnaya Svoboda
- Discord
- Eluvatar#8517
I think the old constitution had serious problems and the current one is significantly better. It may not be perfect but it's fairly good.
R
Romanoffia (Guest)
Guest
Well, under the right conditions, even Equalism has its good points.Actually, it has been done. In Equilism.
A few suggestions for that rough draft:
1) Use numbers. Large paragraphs listing duties are hard to read and impossible to reference.
2) I still don't understand this Guardians thing. Just chunk it in with the powers of the RA.
3) Why should the Delegate get to select new Justices to the Court every term? Why not have them be appointed as life positions and only vacancies filled as you suggest? (again, a la Equilism... and the U.S.)
Typo:
But you bring up a number of good points:
Points:
1.) If you make those duties simpled and defined, the legislation takes care of the rest. Restricting various branches of the government to a handful of very specific duties relevant to that branch's purpose and nothing else prevents the infringement and overlapping of the different branches. It also provides for specialization of functions and allows each branch the opportunity to stop other branches from horning in on governmental functions that they have no authority or business being in. In a nutshell, as an example, it prevents the judicial branch from legislating and executing; prevents the legislative branch from executing and administering legal judgments except in specific instances; and prevents the executive branch from being judge, jury and executioner in all instances.
2.) The guardians are a dedicated and voluntary group of people with UN Nations who stay in the region to either endorse or unendorse the Delegate as conditions require. In an over-simplified format, if you have a Delegate with 300 endos and require a vice delegate to have at least 250 endos or about 75% of the delegate's endorsements, you can use 50 RA members with UN nations (and it might be a good idea to require UN Membership for RA members), you can reasonably remove a rogue delegate in a couple of days through endorsement/unendorsement campaigns. It would have the effect of requiring the Delegate to act accordingly and within the Delegate's powers only or get the boot.
Ironically, in order for the Guardians to act as one, the Delegate has to do something very pissy that would warrant removal and thus avoiding coups. Essentially, the idea is to retain a group of UN nations in a quantity that matters to always remain in the region to support or not support a delegate as needs be. This will eventually develop into a large number of active nations who have sufficient influence levels so as to prevent any upsetting of the balance of power.
3.) The Delegate cannot select new justices every term under my version of a Constitution. The Delegate can nominate a justice if a position opens up (should a justice go inactive, resign or be removed for criminal offenses) but otherwise, one a justice is appointed, the justice is there until he resigns, goes in active or otherwise abandons his post. That way you have a group of justices who do not depend upon anyone for sustaining their positions - hence, you have an independent judiciary who doesn't have to kiss-ass to stay where they are. Sort of like the US Supreme court. It allows for judicial change but limits radical change in violation of the Constitution.
Additional points:
There is no problem with all executive authority being vested in the Delegate, as long as the Delegate sticks to and only to executing the laws and Constitution within the confines of 'reserved rights'. Essentially, the Delegate is charged with executing the laws and the Constitution and cannot suddenly come along and say, "The Constitution doesn't say I can do it so I can therefore do it". The Delegate can only do what the Delegate is delegated to to and nothing more.
Constitutions should restrict governments and leave the people to be otherwise totally free to do whatever they want to do excluding the authority delegated to the government. And under such a 'social contract', governments exist at the consent of the governed and if a government becomes destructive the people have the right to alter or abolish it and establish a more suitable government in compliance with liberal and democratic ideals set forth in the TNP Bill of Rights.
Naivetry
TNPer
Yes, Equilism does have its good points. Thanks for the clarification in point 3.
1) Erm, yes... but all I suggested was that you use numbers. You have paragraphs right now. Put the powers of each branch in a list instead, and number them. You don't need to add any new text. Numbers just make it easier to read, organize, and reference in subsequent legislation.
2) I commented on this the first time you brought it up (I've lost that thread) and those comments amount to: good luck getting it to work. You get 50 members active on *any* forum and I'll crown you the god-king of NS. Look at the RA now. See 50 members there? No? And this is a peak of activity in recent months. I don't know what other games you play, but NS politics don't have that kind of draw now, and I don't know that they ever did outside of multi-regional organizations.
Your idea is fine on paper, but although you can draw a 600 m tall building with a 2 cm diameter, you can't build one that stands. I'm not criticizing your political theory, I'm simply telling you from a political engineering perspective (if you will), that it can't be done. Lump this Guardians thing in with the RA, and give up on controlling the game mechanics; population on the forum is a prerequisite, and it's one you can't meet.
And as I argued earlier, if you have 50 politically active players - heck, even 20 regular contributors - your delegates won't be going rogue at every given opportunity, anyway.
1) Erm, yes... but all I suggested was that you use numbers. You have paragraphs right now. Put the powers of each branch in a list instead, and number them. You don't need to add any new text. Numbers just make it easier to read, organize, and reference in subsequent legislation.
2) I commented on this the first time you brought it up (I've lost that thread) and those comments amount to: good luck getting it to work. You get 50 members active on *any* forum and I'll crown you the god-king of NS. Look at the RA now. See 50 members there? No? And this is a peak of activity in recent months. I don't know what other games you play, but NS politics don't have that kind of draw now, and I don't know that they ever did outside of multi-regional organizations.
Your idea is fine on paper, but although you can draw a 600 m tall building with a 2 cm diameter, you can't build one that stands. I'm not criticizing your political theory, I'm simply telling you from a political engineering perspective (if you will), that it can't be done. Lump this Guardians thing in with the RA, and give up on controlling the game mechanics; population on the forum is a prerequisite, and it's one you can't meet.
And as I argued earlier, if you have 50 politically active players - heck, even 20 regular contributors - your delegates won't be going rogue at every given opportunity, anyway.
R
Romanoffia (Guest)
Guest
Points:
1.) Codifying in list form would be more efficient as to governmental powers (a cross index of which powers belong to which branch as a 'help' footnote could help also. Will get too in and have it prepared in a day or so.
2.) I think I can get people motivated in sufficient numbers - nOObs, Old-timers and in between. I'm good at building fires under people's arses via private means and there's no reason not to use that ability in the public arena. ;D
You are right, even 20 constantly active members could prevent Rogue-ism. Even 20 properly motivated people could exert sufficient force to motivate the rest. This is why a democratic approach, or rather a representative approach that rewards activity is the way to go. This flies in the face of L&C' idiocy of denigrating the so-called 'Old Guard' precisely because it is the 'Old Guard' that is primarily responsible for motivating others.
You see, the so-called 'Old Guard' has always been here and always will be here. L&C goofed when he went rogue because he relies on a constant flow of new-comers that in the long run only show a passing fancy for his bogus scheme. And for that reason L&C is a decadent parody and his days as Delegate are numbered no matter what he does.
L&C also has sealed his doom because he has pissed off the very perennial forces that NS depends upon. He constantly lives in a state of siege and that means he is always on the defensive. He will fatigue as will his followers. Causing conflict for some elaborate scheme to maintain power for the sake of power is an exercise in futility.
I'm suggesting a democratic means to governing The North Pacific by a Constitution that allows for non-UN nations to have an equal say in governance.
R
Naivetry
TNPer
That's lovely, Khark. I don't recall mentioning Gatesville; did you have some reason to?
Naivetry
TNPer
2) Good luck. We'll all be holding you to that.
If you want to preserve all you've done here, you have to continue putting in as much time as you ever did to make it work (*nods at TAO*), or step aside and let others have their chance unimpeded by the cynicism of experience.
If you don't, all TNP will ever see is a constant flow of new-comers that in the long run only show a passing fancy for their bogus enfranchisement. And for that reason, your greater wisdom will become a decadent parody and your days as a democracy will once again be numbered no matter what you do.
(C whut ay did ther??
)
The "Old Guard" fades in and out. The only difference is that you always come back when you're threatened.
This attitude towards newcomers is not going to help anything. A "constant flow" of newcomers is the only way to keep this region and this game vital, because despite the best intentions of older players, y'all can't and don't keep things going on your own. Transitioning power to a new generation is the only way for this game to survive. You old-timers get bored. You've seen it all before. My generation has not. This is our story; this is all we have experienced first hand of politics in NationStates. If you let us, we'll play the game... we'll try new/old things, we'll make mistakes, we'll screw things up royally, we'll mess with your legacy. But we just might create a living game again, instead of a hall of fame.
If you want to preserve all you've done here, you have to continue putting in as much time as you ever did to make it work (*nods at TAO*), or step aside and let others have their chance unimpeded by the cynicism of experience.
If you don't, all TNP will ever see is a constant flow of new-comers that in the long run only show a passing fancy for their bogus enfranchisement. And for that reason, your greater wisdom will become a decadent parody and your days as a democracy will once again be numbered no matter what you do.
(C whut ay did ther??
)
Outer Kharkistania
TNPer
Newcomers are alright, but I want GV out.
Outer Kharkistania
TNPer
Nope, because none of them are delegate, and I have a feeling they won't be staying around long once GMB becomes delegate again.
Besides, my beef isn't with specific individual nations, but Gatesville's policies of occupation. Just because someone is on the other side of the war doesn't mean you have to be a jerk about it, but apparently several people didn't get that memo.
Also, I'm still waiting for the termination of my interests.
Besides, my beef isn't with specific individual nations, but Gatesville's policies of occupation. Just because someone is on the other side of the war doesn't mean you have to be a jerk about it, but apparently several people didn't get that memo.
Also, I'm still waiting for the termination of my interests.
Joshua
TNPer
That is not a valid counterpoint to my argument. You are endorsing numerous Gatesville nations that are present in TNP, and you openly express your dislike for Gatesville being in TNP. That is a clear conflict of interest, their length of stay has no relevance to this argument. If you truly dislike someone than you will not endorse them.Nope, because none of them are delegate, and I have a feeling they won't be staying around long once GMB becomes delegate again.
And I highly disagree with the leaching influence away from L&C argument. Eluvatar has also expressed their hesitance about this.
Emperor Matthuis
TNPer
This is incorrect.
Siege mentalities frequently have the opposite effects on uniting and bonding a region, the best example is the NPO with Francos Spain. You may not like his policies or government no one can disagree that they were always loyal to each other.
For a real-life example, perhaps the Soviet Union in World War II.
R
Romanoffia (Guest)
Guest
Siege mentalities always end in the self-fulfilling prophesy of failure. The Soviet Union in WWII metaphor is faulty because the 'siege mentality' (if there ever was one in that instance) had nothing to do with uniting the USSR. What had everything to do with it was the fact that if anyone disobeyed orders, they were shot on the spot. And ultimately, the USSR collapsed in total abject failure.
As for the second point, there are quite a few people who resent that by game mechanics that the UN is the only game in town. I think a paradigm shift that allows non-UN nations in the region to have a say about how the Delegate casts his/her UN vote would help level the field a bit.
Once again, L&C and his crew are a major mechanical failure in every aspect there is. The L&C machine was defective right off the drawing board and a perfect example of a doomed enterprise. It's like a bus load of people who, upon cresting the hill, suddenly realizing that not only does the bus have no brakes but the driver doesn't know where the steering wheel is. Oh, and there is a big nasty brick wall at the bottom and no way for L&C to avoid kissing it at 120 mph. ;D
Every here the one about what the last thing that goes through a moth's mind as he hits the windshield of a speeding automobile? The moth is L&C.
Emperor Matthuis
TNPer
If this was directed at me I do not get it, I assume it is some 'internet thing' but there you go.
Yes, but that was some sixty years when the USSR wasn't under siege mentality. The Russian people united to defend their country against foreign invaders, whether they supported the Bolsheviks or not.
Why is L&C a moth? If he were a moth you would have defeated him by now. The longer he stays, the weaker you get.
Outer Kharkistania
TNPer
Not yet. There is eventually a point where we start getting weaker and start giving up, but we haven't reached it yet. The longer he has to fight us, the weaker his position gets.
Granted, we can't drag this out forever, but we could last another couple months before I'd start getting antsy about weakness.
Granted, we can't drag this out forever, but we could last another couple months before I'd start getting antsy about weakness.
You compared the L&C's regime to the Soviet Union in WW2, thus more or less obliquely casting us (being L&C's opponents) as the Axis. Godwin's Law of online debate has it that as a political discussion grows longer, the probability of someone calling someone else a Nazi approaches one, this event is then called "a Godwin". Hence.
R
Romanoffia (Guest)
Guest
Hehe! I love the .png file name for that image.
How long ago did you do that run? Look like you have a real-time report on the endo levels.
R
R
Romanoffia (Guest)
Guest
The fact is that not everyone, in fact 293 people were ejected for not uniting under L&C. Something is rotten in Denmark with your theory because a good chunk, in fact more than 50% aren't united under L&C and if L&C didn't go on a banject spree, he'd be gone by now.
The wholesale slaughter of one's opponents is hardly an honorable way to 'unite' a region. ;D
First off, the longer L&C stays, the longer he stays. All we have to do is to survive - L&C has to be forever vigilant and his influence cannot increase one iota because he must expend it in order to keep banjecting people in order to stay in power.
In fact, nothing L&C can do will ever weaken those nations he lacks the influence to eject. At this rate, he will never progress beyond 'minnow'. In case you haven't noticed, the number of endorsements a nation has figures more prominently in the amount of influence needed to be spent on ejecting a nation than what 'ranking' a nation has.
Point being, as long as the will to resist L&C exists, the weaker he becomes and the stronger the resistance becomes. All the resistance has to do is to keep resisting in any capacity it can, non-stop, and eventually L&C will fall. But I think that L&C will fall by his own hand before he gets to the point of 'influence failure' because he will blink at the wrong time. It generally happens that way. And once Gatesville finds a more effective and friendlier way to promote the anti-UN agenda, L&C will be hung out to dry and blow away in the wind. ;D
The moth metaphor:
Q: What's the last thing that goes through a moth's mind when he hits the windscreen of an automobile?
A: His arse.
Distilled into simpler terms, L&C won't even know what hits him when he finally falls despite everyone pointing it out to him.
Eventually, as I say, when Gatesville finds a more friendly and political way of convincing people and getting their voluntary help by logic and not force concerning the mass repeal of certain overbearing UN resolutions that rob nations of their sovereignty, L&C will be left twisting in the wind and looking like a jackass.
Zemnaya Svoboda
TNPer
I think, Romanoffia, that Gatesville wants to repeal all UN resolutions, not just the overbearing ones. 
Emperor Matthuis
TNPer
Interesting, I had not heard this before, nor realized that referencing WWII was some sort of issue for people on the internet. As for me "obliquely casting" you as a a Nazi, well it seems rather ridiculous, and somewhat amusing to me. No matter.
This is a riduclous assumption, the longer Westwind remains the more confident he will become, no matter about his influence. The resistansce after a few months will slowly lose members, and its efforts will drop off, until only a few of the 'Old Guard' remain.
Not real time. I'm running the thing about once a day. I'll put in a timestamp to signify how old the numbers are.
Hehe! I love the .png file name for that image.
How long ago did you do that run? Look like you have a real-time report on the endo levels.
R
And I find it hilarious that board software is written to disallow certain file extensions. After all, those URLs all don't actually exist as files - my script is just configured such that "/signature" will output a certain image. The board wouldn't let me use /signature, so I tried it with /signature/*.png. It would return the same image if the URL said /signature/virus.exe or signature/helloworld.txt
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Romanoffia (Guest)
Guest
I've asked Gates about a related issue involving repeal of UN resolutions and it would appear that it doesn't involve all UN resolutions, just the leftist, socialistic sovereignty resolutions.I think, Romanoffia, that Gatesville wants to repeal all UN resolutions, not just the overbearing ones.
I may disagree with Gates' methods and means but I tend to agree with his anti-UN stance. All in all, I do believe that as a region and government our inattention to detail on UN resolutions (and how they affect one's nation's influence - pipe your own nation feed for the various other goodies that aren't shown when you simply look at your nation sometime) is a severe problem.
For instance, let me pull up a sample of what can be found out on the surface about Lewis and Clark and how he has played his nation:
Founded 1502 days ago
population of 7040 million live in The North Pacific
Democratic Socialists government
Defence as its priority
Arms Manufacturing - major industry
Civil rights - Very Good
Economy - Good
Political freedoms - Good .
68% income tax
Government spending:
Administration 22%
Welfare 15%
Healthecare 6%
Education 9%
Spirituality 5%
Defence 23%
Law and Order 90%
All this plays into influence, especially population and the government spending crapola.
I tells me that he largely just dismisses issues that don't fit his aim to become an authoritarian state of some kind, etc.,, and how he goes about endorsing nations (blind tarting).
How you vote on UN resolutions affects all these items and can hinder population growth whether or not the codemonkeys intended it as such. But by comparing this information with other nations you can glean whether or not he has the influence to eject a particular nation and how much influence he has to do what with in the Regional Control department. ;D
And there is a lot more 'easter eggs' out there that the designers left for everyone to find that no one has discovered yet (or at least very few have discovered).
And it's all out there if you look hard enough.