Reforms to z13

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Outer Kharkistania

TNPer
As a former supporter of the Crimson's I am well aware of many of the reasons why some people joined over there- the ones that aren't just WW's support staff, I mean, but regular people.

There's several things we need to do to address some issues, namely we need to throw a provisional government together, streamline the constitution, and eliminate the sole question of legitimacy they keep bringing up.

1) We need to have the RA make a vote affirming Vice Delegate GBM as our provisional delegate due to the line of Delegate Succession, since our delegate has rejected the office. This will kill their argument that GBM was appointed by Gros.

2) We need to adopt a streamlined constitution. I believe someone posted such a constitution someone around here. This will kill their argument that we are inefficient. In particular, the CLO has to go.

3) We need to appoint a number of ministers and other positions, particularly in the foreign department and set them to work. This will let us set up embassies again and take up the day to day operations of a government again.

Now, I've been staying out of the RA to avoid accusations that I released those documents in order to "grease the wheels" and help me get back in here quickly, but if required to help put this together, I will join.
 
Outer Kharkistania:
As a former supporter of the Crimson's I am well aware of many of the reasons why some people joined over there- the ones that aren't just WW's support staff, I mean, but regular people.

There's several things we need to do to address some issues, namely we need to throw a provisional government together, streamline the constitution, and eliminate the sole question of legitimacy they keep bringing up.
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Some good points there. Some.

Outer Kharkistania:
1) We need to have the RA make a vote affirming Vice Delegate GBM as our provisional delegate due to the line of Delegate Succession, since our delegate has rejected the office. This will kill their argument that GBM was appointed by Gros.
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This might actually be a good idea.

Outer Kharkistania:
2) We need to adopt a streamlined constitution. I believe someone posted such a constitution someone around here. This will kill their argument that we are inefficient. In particular, the CLO has to go.
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Here I'm not sure. This constitution is already significantly streamlined, but more importantly we could face accusations that we were taking the moment while the region was disunited to reshape the Constitution.

Outer Kharkistania:
3) We need to appoint a number of ministers and other positions, particularly in the foreign department and set them to work. This will let us set up embassies again and take up the day to day operations of a government again.
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Hmm this might be a good idea for GBM to do. GBM?

Outer Kharkistania:
Now, I've been staying out of the RA to avoid accusations that I released those documents in order to "grease the wheels" and help me get back in here quickly, but if required to help put this together, I will join.
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Why of course.
 
The argument that our constitution is inefficient is from people who don't believe in democracy. Obviously if we just had a dictator things would be "faster" but is it really worth it?

Change the Constitution his, change the constitution that. It doesn't work! We streamlined it! We eliminated the check and balances and now look what we have, the most organized rogue government since Pixiedance. Further "streamlining" or as I like to call it concentrating power in the wrong hands, is just asking for trouble.

Also the CLO's were the only thing exposing L&C and at the time YOUR'S, agenda. To eliminate the only thing the people had check government abuses is unfathomable.
 
You're just mad because you're in it.

The CLO's functions can easily be carried out by the Regional Assembly, and frankly if a delegate decides to go rouge, three guys on a forum complaining about how its illegal won't stop them. The disadvantages and red tape it causes far outweighs the benefits.
 
Outer Kharkistania:
1) We need to have the RA make a vote affirming Vice Delegate GBM as our provisional delegate due to the line of Delegate Succession, since our delegate has rejected the office. This will kill their argument that GBM was appointed by Gros.

2) We need to adopt a streamlined constitution. I believe someone posted such a constitution someone around here. This will kill their argument that we are inefficient. In particular, the CLO has to go.

3) We need to appoint a number of ministers and other positions, particularly in the foreign department and set them to work. This will let us set up embassies again and take up the day to day operations of a government again.

Now, I've been staying out of the RA to avoid accusations that I released those documents in order to "grease the wheels" and help me get back in here quickly, but if required to help put this together, I will join.
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Thank you for your suggestions. I am sure they have been offered in a spirit of helpfulness.

To respond:

1) I have no problem if the RA wants to make a confirmation vote. Although, clearly the CO is beating the dead horse of "legitimacy" because they don't have much else to go on. I mean, who hasn't read those transcripts?

2) We are always open to proposals for new constitutions. First we discuss them, then we vote on them. Majority wins. Same for revistions: Proposal-discussion-vote. Sometimes they pass; sometimes they don't.

3)Foreign Affairs is the only office in which there is a vacancy. The other positions have already been filled.

Finally, it is entirely up to you whether or not you apply for RA membership. You do have rights. Frankly, I can't imagine why you would care about any accusations that might be made.... by either side.
 
Ok help me to clarify something with me:

The UN Delegate for The North Pacific and the UN Vice Delegate shall be elected through the process described in Section 1 of this Article and the North Pacific Legal Code. The Delegate shall be considered as the ceremonial head of state, but not as head of government, for The North Pacific. The Vice-Delegate shall be considered as the deputy for the Delegate, and who may, where circumstances warrant, act as the Delegate.
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Then for TNP the problem is with deleguate? Why I have the impression that in TNP we make so a big deal about this position.
 
Yeah, that needs to go to. Having the delegate as a ceremonial head of state is unrealistic, considering that the delegate is the only part of this government with any real power outside of this forum.

Granted, that means you should only elect delegates that you trust, but since all regional power is concentrated in the delegate, he can always just ditch the forum if things don't go this way.

That's why we need to streamline processes of legislation, and maybe make a clear separation between moderation/administration and government, since that's the other accusation I've heard leveled at z13.
 
Granted, that means you should only elect delegates that you trust, but since all regional power is concentrated in the delegate, he can always just ditch the forum if things don't go this way.

That's why we need to streamline processes of legislation, and maybe make a clear separation between moderation/administration and government, since that's the other accusation I've heard leveled at z13.
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I dont think you need a streamline, I have read the constitution and all his clear but is surely the interpretation of the constitution that his a problem but we will always of someone to think otherwise. Look I am new here and it's really difficult for me to understand the way of TNP. For any new player their head must hurt after all you need to read to understand. That is my vision.

Moderation and Administration must be given on the person who has be given the power by the people. I think the deleguate must not have the power of Admin but the prime minister can have. There is again my humble opinion.

The deleguate cannot have the power on the forum and the game, The power must be in the Forum and this one must control the game. To this end, I think the deleguate must be choose not elected, Choose by the true power of this forum, The Prime Minister. With that I think the deleguate position will become more a ceremonial position and with tradition the delegacy will become the place of a permanent citizen of TNP.

There is just my simple opinion, like or not that will not hurt me.
 
The delegate represents our elected government on NationStates. Controlling the World Factbook Entry and controlling (in a limited way) the ejection of nations from the region, their endorsement of the elected government and the forum goes a long way in establishing technical legitimacy. As far as the game is concerned, the delegate wields sole power.

Like religions, our laws carry only as much weight as the faith we have in them - and without the enforcing ability of the delegate, as well as the influx of new members through the WFE, our government and constitution become shells of paper.

---

We do our best to disguise this problem, and to counterbalance the incredible unofficial power that the delegate has, by giving the delegate no official authority.

Personally, I am not certain this does not worsen the problem. The high rate of delegate-organized coups d'etat may be explained by the delegate's frustration that the constitution severely restricts them without repaying them with legal authority - giving them only the option of coup d'etat to wield real power. Though I have no alternative solution that would solve this, other than "get a delegate you would buy used cars from".
 
Personally, I am not certain this does not worsen the problem. The high rate of delegate-organized coups d'etat may be explained by the delegate's frustration that the constitution severely restricts them without repaying them with legal authority
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That is why I dont think the Delegacy seat must be elected. True power must be given on the Prime Minister.....OR You give the opportunity to the Deleguate to choose the Prime Minister.
 
The delegate represents our elected government on NationStates.
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Represents! That is a good word if he his just a representant then he must be choose by the elected power of this forum. If he has to be a voice on the game then give him the power to recruit, be the voice of TNP and so on.....but all power that can be entrusted to a representant of TNP.
 
We don't have a prime minister. The closest to that is the speaker of the Assembly, who has power to control legislation.

And your complaints about reading is what I'm getting at. By streamlining, I'm not necessarily talking about eliminating government processes or positions (while I think the CLO is unnecessary, I can live with it because there are more important issues) but rather making a constitution with the same content but in a smaller, more organized form instead of various legacy documents and parts of old constitutions stuck together. We need to start with a simple frame and attach stuff as necessary rather than starting with a large, somewhat disorganized mass of legal codes, Constitution, and bills of rights with various amendments slapped on.
 
We don't have a prime minister. The closest to that is the speaker of the Assembly, who has power to control legislation.
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EHHHHH!? :blink:


2) Prime Minister.
A - The Prime Minister is the head of the Regional Government. The Prime Minister shall preside at all meetings of the Cabinet. The Prime Minister shall have such authority as is necessary and proper to exercise the powers granted to, or to execute the duties imposed upon, the Prime Minister under this Constitution, or by The North Pacific Legal Code, or by the other laws enacted pursuant to this Constitution, and subject to such limitations on those powers and duties established under this Constitution.
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It's seem is written on your constitution, did I miss something!?

We need to start with a simple frame and attach stuff as necessary rather than starting with a large, somewhat disorganized mass of legal codes, Constitution, and bills of rights with various amendments slapped on.
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This constituion you have dont begin like that? It's will be always be the same with written constitution. If you dont like it, dont play here.
 
Change when you were out! This post was made in Nov 29 2005, 03:39 AM and This post has been edited by Grosseschnauzer on Dec 18 2007, 08:25 PM.

Did you read correctly your constitution!? Come on!
 
1. The Delegate shall serve as TNP UN Delegate and as Head of State. In any instance where the Delegate is absent, incapacitated, or unwilling or unable to act as the UN Delegate at nationstates.net, or to act as Head of State, the Vice Delegate shall exercise the powers of the Delegate.
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The link was not good there is the new description but I think it's a mistake to made this change, I see that WW was the one to make the post in the Regional Public Hall, Did this change was made by the RA?

With this change you give all the power to the deleguate, dont you see? Why then you are in the moment whinning on the power of the delegate.

There is the link for the new and that is the old

You need to revise your link in the welcoming center.
 
Aye, this kind of confusion is exactly what I was talking about.

While I was looking for where Karastot found the mention of Prime Minister, I also noticed that the legal code DOES make several references to it, and has never been revised.
 
I am sure that confusion have helped a lot in the move of WW. The constitution was streamlined and there what you got Khark, a King seat on a throne. The ancient one was really good but never use to his full potential. The streamlined one have too much hole and have serve the purpose of WW.

Who write this?
 
Constitution, Bills of Right and legal code.....Ok I see now.

One another thing, I dont see in the new constitution the Deleguate must follow the constitution, did I am wrong?
 
At least we have a constitution and not a set of Papal Bulls from a dictator like Lewis and Clark.

OK, everyone, do we want a streamlined constitution? Just say the word and give me two days and I'll write up a new constitution that will have people demanding we use that constitution on all sides. It will be so compact, streamlined, efficient and entirely acceptable to all concerned that it shock you all.

Just say the word.
 
Heh.

Roman, you made a constitution remember? And it was turned down. :eyeroll:

And if writing it would suddenly stop the conflict, why not do it now?
 
Emperor Matthuis:
Heh.

Roman, you made a constitution remember? And it was turned down. :eyeroll:

And if writing it would suddenly stop the conflict, why not do it now?
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Why do it now? Because I'm sure that we are all getting very tired of these itinerant rogue delegates who declare themselves God.

Because if we adopt something like what I am about to start working on, people will be drawn to it and rogue dictators like L&C won't steal the idea because it would mean that they would have to acknowledge that they are rogues and criminals.

Because it will set in stone that all delegates serve at the pleasure of the people and not the other way around.

Because it will provide for a real and effective means that *will* to remove a delegate rapidly should that delegate go rogue by legitimately exploiting game mechanics to do so. :D

Put on your thinking cap, Matty, you should be able to figure out what I am going to write up.
 
Keep it simple, and use as plain of language as you can.

Also, don't worry about a Bill of Rights/Criminal Code, we can use the current until we agree on a constitution.
 
It's funny that every time the Bill of Rights has been put up to a vote, it has been overwhelmingly approved. It seems that it fairly states certain principles The North Pacific holds as the foundation of our community. I, for one, will not support any attempt to alter or repeal it. Whilt the current Constitution barely attained the two-thirds majority needed to pass, the Bill of Rights proposal was nearly unanimous.

And neither the current Constitution, nor the Bill of Rights is all the long. The current text proved to have problems, because it sacraficed clarity and functionality for the sake of "shortness for shortness' sake," with no regard for its impracticality. And if I recall correctly, O.K., you voted for it.

Finally, the legal code is not considered part of the Constitution, and never has been. It is a code of laws that address specific matters under the authority of the Constitution.
 
The bill of rights will be in tact in toto with one addition.
 
The current text proved to have problems, because it sacraficed clarity and functionality for the sake of "shortness for shortness' sake," with no regard for its impracticality.
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That is totally true, the ancient constitution was good and explain a lot. This constitution was not exploited to his maximum, he can have become a great text if you want my opinion.

That some people dont read or understand the constitution is irrelevant, the constitution is there to protect the region and his member without the knowledge of that text, there is why you have a judicial system. The only people who need to know all the principale is the one who want to have a office here. What is important is the necessasity of the people to get their RA membership and that he have right.
 
Perhaps the draft could be edited in wiki form before being finalized? Depending on how many people want to contribute, obviously.
 
Outer Kharkistania:
I can't reply to that topic, so I'll reply here.

That is exactly what I had in mind.
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:winner:

This is a simple solution - it enumerated specific limited powers to the Delegate and government, restricts them to only what is laid out for them and spelled out for them in the Constitution, reserves right to the people, and provides for the orderly removal of rogue delegates. There's enumerated powers of government (the government cannot claim powers not *delegated* to the) and it provides the people with the inalienable right to revolt legally against a rogue delegate or regime, and forces the delegate to perform a set of specific duties.

The purpose of the government and delegate is to serve the people, not rule them. Governments exist to serve, not to be served.

You let RA legislation take care of the fine details via legislation in accordance with the Constitution and only in accordance with the Constitution instead of amending the constitution to adjudicate parking tickets, if you know what I mean.

The one unique feature is that Judicial Review of laws (as to their compliance to the Constitution) can be initiated by Judges who are appointed until they resign or otherwise cease to be judges. This assures the absolute independence of the judiciary.

Impeachment procedures are automatic if a government official violates the Constitution because violating the Constitution is automatically a criminal act in and of itself.

Checks and balances prevent any rogue Delegate or government from claiming legitimacy because no one, not the RA, not the Courts, not the People, can 'revoke' or otherwise 'nullify' the Constitution or body of law in one fell swoop.

It's time we establish a system that affords the most freedom to the most people and actually limit the authority of government and preserve the right of the people to alter or abolish and reestablish a more suitable government if needs be.

"The best government is the government that governs least" - Thomas Jefferson

Power to The People!
 
To be honest, to only have short Constitution and no legal code only empowers the judiciary to make uplaws as they go along on their own interpretation of the Con. Meaning a lot of bad illegal stuff like spying or even account hacking would be legal.
 
Ok, I love to repeat myself but your ancient constitution was perfect. You dont need to rewrite something, or make it more simple. A constitution is not simple and we all know that not everyone know perfectly the constitution of RL country but we all know that we have rights.

Where I think you need to focus, It's the principle of Citizen, That is more important, Citizen have right but have DUTY. You need make clear what is duty of a citizen in TNP, where is reponsability. When right and duty are assemble then a balance is made.
 
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