Limitless Events

There is conflict between the Administration and the Government, so I will allow both to present and defend their case regarding Limitless Event's Writ of Coram Nobis. I understand the seriousness of the situation and ultimately it is in the hands of TNP to decide.

flem and L & C, you are given 48 hours to make your arguments. You may call witnesses if you desire.

There are materials in Flem's control possession that are relevant to this discussion. I have already set to you by PM links to the archived threads that I can recall that are relevant to this matter.

Since he holds the Root Administrator position, and was the administrator who originally imposed the ban, it would be more appropriate to allow Flemingovia to present the information and arguments.

I have received the information, thank you.

I will allow flem to present his case.

Limi was removed from thus forum for a number of reasons, but chief among them was obtaining and then posting on another forum a complete list of the e-mail addresses and IP addresses of every member of this forum.

This placed them into the hands of at least one individual who was extremely hostile to members of this forum, to the point of making real-life threats towards people, including threats of violence.

This action using real-life data of players transcends the playacting of a role playing game. In the cases of some people (including one player called (IIRC) Nem, who left the game over this) it involved work IP addresses and e-mails. Things they most certainly did not want in the public domain.

I maintain this goes beyond the realms of the government and into the domain of the administration team of this forum. It was a clear breech of TOS, and was dealt with accordingly. Please remember, if anyone had complained to invisionfree over this, the whole forum could have been shut down.

The action against Limitless Events was ratified by the then cabinet and the Secuity council. Limi was not placed on trial because he requested not to be put on trial.

The details of the original case are in the threads you have been sent. I will happily answer questions as needed.

EDIT: I forgot to add that at the time we were contacted by Invisionfree, who had received a complaint from a person whose private data had been taken from this forum. Do not underestimate the seriousness with which Invisionfree took this matter.

The statement of the Security Council on the matter was as follows.

Though we find this situation worrisome, the Security Council has unanimously approved them.

More to the point, the Security Council has approved the following actions:
- Removal of Eluvatar and The Truth from the Regional Assembly
- Removal of Limitless Events from the Cabinet
- Restriction of forum posting and access rights to Limitless Events
- Temporary refusal of Regional Assembly application.
- Banning Very Odd and Random from the North Pacific as it is the nation Limitless Events was planning to use to take over the delegacy.

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The originally proposed statement specifically endorsed the banning of Limitless Events from the forum, while this final official statement states "restriction of forum posting and access rights" rather than banning. However, it does also "approve" the actions of Flemingovia, albeit reluctantly, thereby approving the ban. There was considerable concern as to how the situation was handled by Flem at at the time, and understanding this himself, he had offered himself for impeachment.

It was not a matter of what actions Flem took, but rather how he took those actions that were of concern. But that is really of no relevence, and the question at hand concerns the actions Limitless Events.

Limitless Events is not here to defend himself, and I am not here to speak on his behalf. All I can do, is review the materials I have been provided.

While evidence of the information that LE had obtained and provided to The Lexicon was provided, the means that such information was obtained was not determined. LE, as MoIIA did have access to IP numbers, but that does not give an account access to Email accounts. The origin of obtainment of that information was not discovered or determined from what I have read.

The obtaining and use of IP addresses and email addresses is common in NationStates as an Intelligence and security device. Defenders do not often venture onto invader forums, and vice-versa, for this very reason. It is part and parcel of NS Intelligence work and has been for years. I can assure you that there are a number of others here on this forum that have engaged in the same work of obtaining and listing IP's and emails.

But Limitless Events was caught, due to counter-intelligence from an unnamed source.

LE did not face trial for his acts in court, nor had the opportunity to defend himself. He resigned his posts and moved on at the time. As Flem has said, he approached the matter as an issue of violation of the Invisionfree TOS. Again, though, there are a number of others here, that would fall under this same issue if revealed.

However, the real reason for concern here, to me, is not the supposed violation of TOS, or the clandestine actions performed. But rather the providing of such information to parties that had indeed made potential RL threats against persons. In this digital world, such threats must be taken seriously and at face value. Whether or not LE realized that his actions created a RL risk is unknown, as there was no pursuit of the issue with him, and he is unable to speak here for himself.

In my comments here, I am neither advocating for or against the lifting of his ban, but rather attempting to place it into perspective for this consideration.

But Limitless Events was caught, due to counter-intelligence from an unnamed source.

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Incorrect, the source was always known. It was Shoeless Joe, former co-founder of The Lexicon.

Okay.

From the threads provided to me, Flem repeatedly refused to identify the source, sighting an agreement with the source to hide his identity, so I had no further information.

That was true in the initial phase, but Shoeless Joe came forward a bit later and acknowledged his role as the source of the screenshots, and other information.

That and he was outright caught and ejected from The Lexicon. Perhaps the reason that Flem didn’t want the source disclosed is because Shoeless Joe had been implicated in a plot to take over TNP himself and had been ejected from the region some time before this incident occurred.

On that note, I request the chance to testify on behalf of Limitless Events , if it pleases the court, seeing as may have a bit more firsthand knowledge on the Lexicon-Limitless takeover plot than most.

Blue Wolf II:

That and he was outright caught and ejected from The Lexicon. Perhaps the reason that Flem didn’t want the source disclosed is because Shoeless Joe had been implicated in a plot to take over TNP himself and had been ejected from the region some time before this incident occurred.

On that note, I request the chance to testify on behalf of Limitless Events , if it pleases the court, seeing as may have a bit more firsthand knowledge on the Lexicon-Limitless takeover plot than most.

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Granted. I will keep the discussion open.

Blue Wolf II is granted immunity from charges in exchange for his testimony.

For the record, when I became Prime Minister in November2005, just after these events occured in ate October 2005, I received aPM from a forum member requesting to see any iformation that related to his user account that was included in the screenshots.

He epressed mentioned his concerns that RL information about him havingbeen taken from these forums. I forward his request to Hersfold and Hersfold later advised him that he had provided that information to the forum user. Because the forum policy here prohibits the posting ofthe texts of PMs in public areas of the forum without te writer's consent, I am unable to quote the PM here.

But the PMs do exist, I still have them in my inbox and sent folders. I do not know if this person complained to Invisionfree or not. One of the roblems we're going to have with this (as was the case with actions taken with Mesian some months later) is that Hersfold deleted all of his PMs when he retired from Nationstates. I suspect that any communications from Invisionfree would havebeen to Hersfold, unless he happened to hav shared those communications with Flemingovia. (Since I did not become an Admin here until February of 2007, there would have been no reason to share those with me.)

I Would also add that as far as I am concerned this matter has nothing to do with petty in-game manouverings. This is a matter of Terms of service and real life details of people being sent to someone who I feel was capable of real life actions against people.

I repeat. This goes beyond any assurances or decisions that an in-game minster of Justice can make.

NK:

Blue Wolf II is granted immunity from charges in exchange for his testimony.

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Thanks Kerv, I really need that. Ok let me start of by saying this, I was planning on saving this for a retirement statement (one day, way off in the distance) but since the subject came up and I've been granted immunity I thought it would be amusing to just come out with it now.

First off, for the record, the Limitless-Lexicon plot is really a misnomer; a more correct term would be the LWU-Lexicon plot. You see, although never officially acknowledged until now, this operation was fully sanctioned by all members of the Lone Wolves United High Command. We knew just about every operational detail and were involved every step of the way. LWU even went so far as to send its own undercover agents into TNP to influence the up-coming elections by voting for Limi, none of which are involved in the forums at this date, by-the-by.

To be honest, I'm surprised that our intelligence didn't pick up on this one from the start, after all Limitless Events was and still is a General in LWU and a member of its High Command, you would have thought the link was obvious. Perhaps this is a testament to the ingenuity of the Wolves as a whole, in fact I feel confident in saying that the entire plot would have gone off seamlessly if we hadn't gotten The Lexicon involved.

In any case, I'm getting off topic; let's get right into the meat of the issue, shall we? Around, oh, September-ish, Limitless came to us with a great idea. We would take over The North Pacific by using his position in the cabinet to sneak LWUers into the RA. In the next elections he would run for delegate, all the Wolves would vote for him and *boom* instant feeder control for us. Sadly, our plan had a slight flaw; although we had the members needed to rig the elections we didn't have the numbers needed to hold the region. Thus we went looking for someone to help us accomplish this task.

Enter The Lexicon. Lone Wolves United Founder Scardino had been a founding member of it, and, oh, just to let you know, the whole reason why The Lexicon was founded was to take over TNP, I believe that was Scar's idea. Sadly the little punks had screwed the pouch. Instead of coming up with good ideas to take over the region they "declared war" on TNP. Scar, then realizing that Cathyy and IP were idiots, and I, who never really trusted the two, came out publicly and opposed the "war" knowing Lex would accomplish nothing. The reaction of Lex was predictable, they banned us for their forum, removed Scardino for the list of original founders, and deleted the Lone Wolves United Embassy, just for starters. Insane Power and I exchanged some nasty words later on where he said something to the effect of "LWU will amount to nothing" and I said something to the effect of "You're a fucking asshat."

Now, this all happened before Limi's idea. Weeks later when Limi came forward with it we were like "DAMN! Those idiots have screwed both us and them! Now not only can't we work with them but we don't even have the resources to pull the entire operation! Plus TNP is on high alert! Shat! Arse!" Limitless, however, was ever imaginative. He worked The Lexicon through other channels, the Lexicon High Council. Through people like TGR and Elu we were able to convince The Lexicon into backing our plan even though the majority of the High Commands on both sides hated each others guts.

And so the plan was going smoothly. The Lexicon would get to see TNP taken over, and I'm sure they planned to double cross us, and LWU would get control of a feeder and then crush The Lexicon in a monumental betrayal for all the grief they caused us, it was a friggin work of art. And then the shit hit the fan.

This infamous "IP list" showed itself on The Lexicon forums. Now, I don't know where the list came from, I stated to Flem before that LWU does not have such a list and I stand by that statement. I will say that if LWU did have such a list we didn't not and would not authorize its release. Personally, I think Limi got the list through defender channels. Limitless, being a former defender himself, still had access to a lot of defender sources and since defenders are the ones who typically compile huge friggin' lists and then give them to all their allies (which is why half of the internet knows my IP address) all roads to them.

In any case, I never saw this IP list, even though I had access to the forum it was posted on. The Lexicons told me they deleted it soon after it was posted, so I can not confirm nor deny it's actual presence. I will say, however, that Limitless' intent was not malicious. I'm sure he was only following well set defender protocols on IP information sharing and, might I add, that list was posted in a mask and password secure forum with very few people being able to see it. May I also add that any ToS violations that occurred did not actually happen on this forum, unless, of course, you can prove that Limi used his Mod powers here to obtain that whole list of IP addresses.

Anyway, back to the story. When this IP list was posted I guess someone grew a heart. At the time we didn’t know it but former Lexicon co-founder and traitor to The North Pacific Shoeless Joe wasn’t so keen on the plan to start with. When he saw the list I guess he pounced on the opportunity to clear his conscience. He ran to TNP with it in hand and gave it to them; Flem freaked out, somewhat rightfully so, and banned Limi.

Needless to say the whole of the Lex was completely confused. However, using my masking as a Duty Minister I had access to all the screen shots Flem posted regarding the source. On that information we were able to figure out Shoeless was the one who ratted. He could have gotten me caught in the deal too but he had neglected to take screen shots of any of my posts and, luckily, I forced either TGR or Elu to delete all traces of my presence and LWU’s involvement, thus avoiding a potentially disastrous situation.

After that The Lexicon fell apart and may they rot in hell. All the good members who actively worked with LWU moved to Taiji, thank god for that. I still despise Insane Power and will never work with him again now that he’s proved himself to be a complete retard.

Speaking of IP, I think that the real issue here is not LE release of the list but who he released it to. IP and Cathyy are well hated here, and there is no love between them and Flem (understandably, all you need to do is look around NS for a while to find some rather not so nice things they’ve posted about him, in fact, just search his name on the internet in general to find that). Still, I can’t help but feel that if they [IP and Cathyy] were not involved this issue would not be as big of a deal as it is, but still a rather large deal just the same.

On a different note, LWU’s TNP takeover plots ended with The Lex. LWU will continue to pledge its support for the native government the next time it's taken over sometime within the next 10 months (yes, I'm taking bets). We have not made another attempt since and I have this semky "The North Pacific Champion” badge, created by Thel, ladies and gentlemen, to prove it.



Thank you.

Edit: The more I type, the worse the spelling gets. Also, Khark, why did you blend togeather your TNP Champion badge with the rest of your sig? Now you've forced me to host my own via image shack. >_>

I'm going to let Flem respond, and then I may have a couple of questions that deal with relevant facts that I've noticed since I became an Admin here that may well relate to this.

But to say that any TOS violation did not occur here, is disingenious. The information cam from here, so I seriously doubt that it can be asserted that no violation could have occured here.

Thank your for your testimony BW; it was highly informative.

PS: You just got owned by Khark

Grosseschnauzer:

But to say that any TOS violation did not occur here, is disingenious. The information came from here, so I seriously doubt that it can be asserted that no violation could have occured here.

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Forgive me, but from the information that I was provided, as far as I saw it did not give proof that the IP and email information came from the forum here. Mearly a presumption due to Limitless Events access to IP's as MoIIA, and confusion as the source of the email addresses. An unsourced list of IP's and emails is not proof of this forum being the source. There may well be additional information and proof, but I have not seen it, nor am I aware of it.

Again, collecting and listing IP's and Email is common Intel practice in NS. The contention that the information may have been sourced elsewhere, unless otherwise proven, seems a valid possibility. And considering LE had no access to email addresses here on the TNP forum, it makes it even more likely the source comes from elsewhere. In fact, I have a personal suspicion now, due to what BW has shared, as to exactly which person could have been the origin of this list.

I will personally attest that such lists of IP's and emails have been commonly maintained by numerous persons in NationStates including members of this forum. They exist in many defender regions and organzations, and raider organziatons as well. This is common knowledge, and accepted practice. There are full-fledged databases of such information in existance in various regions and organizations.

EDIT: I said too much.

There is perhaps something I should have added, then, in my earlier testimony. Hers and I saw the entire list as published in the lexicon.

1. There is absolutely no doubt that the list came from this forum. It was several hundred names long, in exact order, with the exact IP addresses and e-mails used in registration.

2. By working back on registration dates, we even know the date that the list was stolen from the forum: 31st March/1st April 2006, depending on your time zone.

3. Hersfold always maintained that he suspected, but with insufficient proof for a court, who originally lifted the list from our forum - a player he gave temporary access to the admin CP to on that date in order to help him with a skinning problem. If this is correct, the source was most assuredly NOT a defender.


I would also add that I did not disclose the name of the player who passed the screen shots on to us simply because I gave my word that I would not reveal his name. I did not know at the time that BW was spying on us, and would be passing details back to Insane Power.

Edit: Still reviewing new testimony

What specific testimony has led to this opinion?

flemingovia:

I did not know at the time that BW was spying on us, and would be passing details back to Insane Power.

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Allow me to clarify and perhaps easy your mind Flemmy. It would be unfair to say I was spying, spying suggests that my intent was always to gather information to use against TNP from the start. This is not the case. LWU's attempted takeover of TNP was nothing more than an opportunity that was too good to pass up and not something that was planned well in advance. As for who I turned those screen shots over to when they fell into my lap, well, it sure as hell wasn't Insane Power. It I remember correctly I turned them over the Elu who, in turn, gave them to Wilkshire who them use them to identify and ban Shoeless Joe. I wouldn't have trusted IP was such information, I thought that if he ever got it he would just hand it over to you guys with the tag “Ban Blue Wolf” just to spite me.

I'm fully prepared to identify who had access to the ACP and or the MCP on the dates in question; and the circumstances under which it appears to have happened. The ACP keeps records of who is given access to both. I've been aware of the two identifies involved since shortly after I became an Admin, and I will add that the one name given to me by Hersfold when I became Prime Minister is consistent with the documentation I have seen.

BW, I don't think you've told the whole story yet, have you?

Don't forget, one can phish for IP's off of IRC, and get emails from various sources.

I believe I've already stated Lone Wolves United’s official story Grosse. Any conflicting information presented in spite of my testimony is outside of my knowledge as acting Commander-in-Chief of the LWU.

Does that include your role with the so-called April Fool's "joke" in 2006? There is direct evidence that you and Scardino , respectively, had access to the MCP and ACP and exercised that access on that date. There's also documentation that Scardino made a change in his own account during that day when he had access to the ACP.

Now there is no way of showing exactly what the changes were, since the system only documents that a change was made to a member's account. But why would either of you have any need to do anything during the day in question? The fact that there is only circumstantial evidence, and not direct evidence, is the only reason why further action wasn't taken when information about the full list came to people's attention here.

And why else would you have needed immunity now, if you didn't do anything wrong here?

Giving an "official" account and giving a "truthful" account ain't necessarily the same thing.

Don't forget, one can phish for IP's off of IRC, and get emails from various sources.

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I tell ya what. If anyone here (other than a South Pacific Admin) can provide an exact list, in order, with registration IP addresses and e-mails of the members of (picking a forum at random) the South Pacific on (picking a date at random) 30th July 2006, then I will happily accept that the list that Limited Events gave to the Lexicon may not have come from this forum, but might have been lifted from irc etc.

Does that include your role with the so-called April FOol's "joke" on 2006? There is directly evidence that you and Scardino , respectively, had access to the MCP and SCP and exercised that access on that date. There's also documentation that Scardino made a change in his own account during that day when he had access to the ACP.

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I vaguely recall that. The forums skin was changed to one that suggested that LWU had taken over both the region and the forums. However, I was not involved in that re-skinning and I don't believe that I ever had Admin access, in fact I can't honestly even recall having global mod access on that day or any other, mind you it was just one day 2 years ago. If it was giving to me I never knew about it.

Now there is no way of showing exactly what the changes were, since the system onl documents that a change was made to a member's account. But why would either of you have any need to do anything during the day in question.

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You mean why would Scar need to do anything, seeing as he is the one who made the change and not me? I wouldn't have a clue, he was working with Hers, as stated, that change easily could have been a wide range of things. Why don't you go ask him directly? I'm sure he'll remember more of what he personally did 2 years ago than I ever will.

And why else would you have needed immunity now, if you didn't do anything wrong here?

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Why? Why would I need immunity? Well, let’s see here, it might be because, I:
1.) Violated the Regional Assembly Oath
2.) Violated my oath of office as Deputy Minister of Culture and Education
3.) Worked and plotted with a power with had declared war against TNP
4.) Stole information from the secret cabinet halls
5.) Provided an enemy of TNP with information also from the cabinet halls
6.) Abused my power as Deputy Minister of Culture and Education for personal gain
7.) Sought to stage a free and democratic election by stuffing the ballot box
8.) And, finally, sought to violate just about ever single right guaranteed to a nation by the Bill of Rights.

But I like your theory that I'm the one who stole the IP list even though I never had Admin access and asked for immunity here just in case it came up. Brilliant work Mr. Watson, you've caught me red pawed.

Let me ask you this. If I am the one who stole the IP list and if I had access to the same forums in The Lex that Limi had then why didn’t I just post it there instead of Limi? Must be part of my mind numbingly evil plot to confuse the crap out of people, eh Grosse?

Serious though those other things mentioned by BW are, in the specific issue of stealing a list of IP addresses and e-mails from this forum, there has never been any suggestion that Blue Wolf was directly involved.

It would seem, at least from an outsider looking in, who was around at the time and has a complete list (well, complete from several months ago) of IPs and email addresses from most of the people here, that the sharing of the IP/email list itself isn't an OOC act because it has become part of the intelligence establishment of NS. I believe the ROOT here was involved in a similar activity against the NPD in which Dilber lifted the IP addresses from the s4 forum in order to identify members of the Ministry.

However, I believe the Admin to be wholly justified in upholding a ban if it is true that the list was shared with someone known to be seeking OOC harm to certain individuals. (Anyone that believes IP, after seeing some of his attacks against Flemingovia here and elsewhere, was in his "right mind" and capable of using the information responsibly is an idiot.) The use of OOC information to make threats against another member of the community should transcend any IC government institution.

That being said, it has never been a secret that Lexicon was established as a means of seeking revenge against TNP. Those that didn't know had blinders on.

*Laughs*


This is a bit one sided.


A few clarifications:

An IP address list was, likewise, delivered by The Traitor Shoeless Joe, from The Lexicon to TNP. The same security issue was present on both sides. I would look to Flemingovia for clarification this was (as the list delivered by limi) destroyed.

as Pierc states, IP addy stealing was begun in earnest by defenders eons ago

The Lexicon was never created to establish dominion over TNP. A war was held between the two regions following a ridiculous spy/hate campaign perpetrated by the NPIA and Hersfold.

The LWUs involvement in events is overstated.



As for this whole situation..is this best for NS? Who knows..


Hello btw

An IP address list was, likewise, delivered by The Traitor Shoeless Joe, from The Lexicon to TNP. The same security issue was present on both sides. I would look to Flemingovia for clarification this was (as the list delivered by limi) destroyed.

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*laughs* I am surprised you swallowed that twaddle. Such a list was never given to us by SJ. He would not have offered it, and we would not have accepted it.

Not everyone in this game is pond-slime.

I do not trust anything that particular charcter says. So by that note he may not have done. But regardless, I cannot trust him not to have done.

*edit: Pondslime? Of course your not dearest flem. Hug?



You missed me right?

flemingovia:

An IP address list was, likewise, delivered by The Traitor Shoeless Joe, from The Lexicon to TNP. The same security issue was present on both sides. I would look to Flemingovia for clarification this was (as the list delivered by limi) destroyed.

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*laughs* I am surprised you swallowed that twaddle. Such a list was never given to us by SJ. He would not have offered it, and we would not have accepted it.

Not everyone in this game is pond-slime.

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You were not a part of the TNP Underground?

I seem to recall you being a leader in the Underground, one of the nations that planned the theft of IP addresses from the s4 forum.

It is good to see that hypocrisy is alive and well in TNP.

Fulhead Land:

The LWUs involvement in events is overstated.

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Pfft. Whose General was going to become delegate of TNP again?

lol. This is slightly pointless a debate really. It was a different time. Sad the fun died really.


I think its time, Limi-wise, to forgive and forget really.

Group hugs?

Fulhead Land:

It was a different time.

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Precisely.

Lewis and Clark:

Fulhead Land:

It was a different time.

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Precisely.

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Is it the government's position that the Lexicon and other hostile regions are being a given a new chance to make nice?

You''ll be my hero if it works by the way.

With some exceptions, I would say that is correct. We have a new Constitution, a new Government, and new policies. We have to put the past behind us as much as is reasonable. It's a new age, and we need to be proactive about it.

The current state of NationStates demands that we do whatever it takes to create a new environment of interest and activity. And part of the attempt to accomplish that, is to clear the detrius of the past, and to reach out from our past interregional isolationism.

Those that insist on preventing this region from becoming a vital member of the NS world again, and insist an tying the hands of government from accomplishing the resurrection of the region from it's stagnated death as I was elected to do, will hopefully realize the harm they are causing.

To make one thing clear however, I will not consider reconcilliation with Insane Power or Cathyy.

Lewis and Clark:

With some exceptions, I would say that is correct.  We have a new Constitution, a new Government, and new policies.  We have to put the past behind us as much as is reasonable.  It's a new age, and we need to be proactive about it.

The current state of NationStates demands that we do whatever it takes to create a new environment of interest and activity.  And part of the attempt to accomplish that, is to clear the detrius of the past, and to reach out from our past interregional isolationism.

Those that insist on preventing this region from becoming a vital member of the NS world again, and insist an tying the hands of government from accomplishing the resurrection of the region from it's stagnated death as I was elected to do, will hopefully realize the harm they are causing.

To make one thing clear however, I will not consider reconcilliation with Insane Power or Cathyy.

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good luck! You'll need it!

PS - your Justice Minister is needed in the private CLO forum.