Dalimbar

Emperor Matthuis:
If we have the upper hand then I see no reason why we should weaken our own position to appease him.
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But we don't. We don't have the upper hand. We want our region back, sure, but we need to either remove him (not impossible, but far from a sure thing now) or take a good hard look at what it means to have our region "back".

Let's stop thinking about "when Dalimbar's gone" wishes. If this universe suddenly collided with the Realm of NotGonnaHappen and Dalimbar left the region and let one of our people become delegate then we can have whatever we want happen next. Heck, we can even reneg on any and all promises to Dalimbar we might have made to get there --there's no reason to think Dalimbar hasn't considered that. Why should he believe us? But say maybe it's possible we can talk him through some sort of agreement. What can we offer him? Be it tangible or intangible or some moral victories. What do we have the ability to withhold from him unless we choose not to withhold any longer, that is, what would he ever need us for?


If anyone has any questions or worries about me my position and the position of this government (to the extent that the cats are willing to be herded) is to keep things calm until we can quietly retake the delegate position, but failing that or until that ("every day is a failure until the victory") I do not want us to kill this tenuous peace and possibly put us into another North Pacific Directorate situation. It's possible we may find ourselves in a Reunification situation a la West Pacific Triumvirate and if that's the case that isn't too terrible . Certainly better than having to become an Underground movement for six months, or another Radio Free Pacific :(.

I want us to keep our options open, everyone, not blow through them.
 
True, but Dalimbar has less support that the WPD did, as far as I can see only Thyatira has thrown his support behind him.

Dalimbar does have the upper hand but it is certainly slim and I am confident that his regime will not last.
 
Emperor Matthuis:
True, but Dalimbar has less support that the WPD did, as far as I can see only Thyatira has thrown his support behind him.

Dalimbar does have the upper hand but it is certainly slim and I am confident that his regime will not last.
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...What? :blink:

Apparently, you've been talking to different people than I have, but it seems quite clear to me that he does have a good deal of support. And even more so behind closed doors.

So here's what we offer:

1) No unendo campaign.
2) We won't try to push our people up, although certain nations, i.e. GBM, Eras, Kitabo, Unter, etc. will be allowed to keep a high endo count.
3) Constitutional convention to take place and end within a certain time period.
4) He can keep the Delegacy during the transitional period.
5) We won't prosecute him for anything during this period.
6) A government structure that gives the Del a far greater role in government.

And here's what we demand:

1) No bannings or ejections of members of "our side".
2) He must submit to open delegate elections that take place immediately after the new governing document is approved.
3) A fundamentally democratic, electoral system of government. Even if not wholly so.
4) A meaningful system of representation for nations, both those who are forum-goers and those who aren't.
5) Open communication.
 
I concur. I'd also like to see Grosse take a backseat in any discussion of the constitution wink.gif
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In exchange for what? And why should I penalized and not Dalimbar? II haven't done anything wrong or inappropriate in the entire time since the last power-hungry Delegate.
 
Grosseschnauzer:
I'm pretty sure it's the usual suspects -- Poltamaa, Fulhead and Blue Wolf.
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Fulhead has actually been fairly helpful and pleasant the couple of times I've spoken with him about this. Do you have any proof of this assertion Grosse or is this just a Chertoff "gut feeling"?
 
Blue Wolf hasn't logged into his nation or account for thirteen days and both Fulhead Land and Polts have endorsed me, while both being quite critical of Dalimbar.
 
Emperor Matthuis:
Then who is supporting him?
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First of all, I'm sure you could find a bunch of disgruntled newbies that would support Dali.

Moreover, just about everyone in our Embassy List. And even if he doesn't have their material support, he has their moral support. And it's not like regions are supporting us, either, so it's even, really. And in an "even" battle against a del, those of us who are not the del typically get the short end of the stick.
 
Upper Kirby:
Lord Valentine:
I already suggested to TAO that Schwarz was a problem in my discussion with him earlier; hope I didn't overstep the mark :P
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Kirby won't hold it against the Valentine. Kirby thinks the Valentine a smart, reasonable Lord with correct posture.
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Kirby spoke with Schwarzchild. A very very nice man, and quite agreeable, although we found ourselves not seeing eye-to-eye on many things.

As far as you telling him to go stuff himself (or stuff it however he wants so long as it's not at TNP), Lord Valentine, he says he'll "respectfully decline", but he does send you his best.


Grosseschnauzer:
I'm pretty sure it's the usual suspects -- Poltamaa, Fulhead and Blue Wolf.
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Please, show us any proof you have of this, Master Knight Grosseschnauzer, because I am dying to know.
 
Upper Kirby:
Kirby spoke with Schwarzchild. A very very nice man, and quite agreeable, although we found ourselves not seeing eye-to-eye on many things.

As far as you telling him to go stuff himself (or stuff it however he wants so long as it's not at TNP), Lord Valentine, he says he'll "respectfully decline", but he does send you his best.
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Hey, I simply suggested that as a foreign agent and one who supposedly is their chief diplomat, it might be more diplomatic to keep his scathing commentary on our system of governance to himself.

Grosse, I want you out of the constitution convention because I know you'll take it over and fill it up with legal mumbo-jumbo :P


As for support, He's got the tacit support of the Pacific, Gatesville, West Pacific and East Pacific that I know about. Whether any of those are providing material support remains to be seen.

The one thing that has come out of this is that our delegate was much more liked than we were, and that's a serious issue we'll need to address should we come out of this on top.
 
I'm sure that he has enough personal support worldwide that he won't have to rely on Gatesville support. :P

If anything, we'd come out in a blend of his personal vision + a mix of everyone else's. But hardly a "Gatesville proxy".

And I would still not rush off to civil war at this point. Sorry. Especially since a war would be so unfavorable to us right now.
 
Lord Valentine:
Agreed.

Civil war is all the more likely, if we don't want a Gatevillian proxy running our region.
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I've reversed my thinking on this.

If Gatesville and Dalimbar are working together then I would support a military strike against an obvious invasion. However, we have yet to see just what Gatesville think they will get out of this situation and if Dalimbar actually wants them here.
 
Haor Chall:
I don't think Dalimbar will be willing to negotiate, particularly not now Gatesville has come out of the closet.
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It has been a long morning. We reached a consensus, news was good, news changed, we got a sh!t sandwich, OMGYOUBASTICH, back and forth, things are calm. They're good for right now. We haven't had much of a united front on this --I've stated my position but as I've said before there's only so much the cats of TNP feel like being herded. That has hurt us.

Some of us are trying to talk some sense into him while others are covertly trying to overthrow him. Not even covertly -whispers of moles aside, standing NPA orders are public knowledge, the Security Council resolution, the Regional Assembly petition, even the blaring red ALERT banner does not try to hide it. Difficult to take a rose as genuine if you know the roses are poison tipped.

We've been talking. I spent my entire morning in talks. Schwarzchild decided to become self-appointed busybody and mediator (aside: There wasn't a soul online I was talking to who had not also been talking to Schwarz...). We write out a joint statement, the two sides. I guess the analogy would be the SALT treaties. Both sides went and stuck themselves in a real tit for tat here going on a bad spiral, but somehow the sides decided to scale things back a bit.

So we're talking.

We made a joint statement. Not much eh but it's a start. Things are still pretty tense and for good reasons. Got to work out the trust thing a little more, and for that both sides need to make some good faith gestures. Expect me to hear that phrase a bit more. Dalimbar told Gatesville to withdraw, if anyone asks we're asking Tajitu to withdraw too. We're talking, which is a big thing. And we got to take down the banner. See paragraph #1.

Sorry gents but if the forced takeback strategy is still feasible it's better to have Gatesville out of the region than both in. They'll pump us ragged and not even bother with the tissues. If you're one of the endorsers don't resign from the UN, don't start adding your endorsement to Dalimbar, don't ask anyone to unendorse you or anyone else. And if you should just so happen to accrue endorsements well I won't go kiss and tell.
 
Ator People:
We hold a Constitutional Convention, he recognizes the government. No further restrictions on Dali and he will have all rights of a TNP nation. No criminal charges will ever be pursued.

Whilst I would rather him step down from delegate, I doubt he'd do that.
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This solution I like.

Just a personal comment.

Yeah I know, I know I can't vote. So?
 
Sorry to butt into a private cabinet meeting but

I DONE CODE. I DONE THE BANNER THINGY, INCLUDING LOTS OF COMPLICATED </BIG> THINGIES.

A bit of gratuitous praise would not go amiss.


On a more serious note, I have too been talking to Dali on and off. I am sure he wants what is best for the reigon, although his idea of what is best may not be ours. I have great hopes that we can talk our way out of this.
 
flemingovia:
Sorry to butt into a private cabinet meeting but

I DONE CODE. I DONE THE BANNER THINGY, INCLUDING LOTS OF COMPLICATED </BIG> THINGIES.

A bit of gratuitous praise would not go amiss.


On a more serious note, I have too been talking to Dali on and off. I am sure he wants what is best for the reigon, although his idea of what is best may not be ours. I have great hopes that we can talk our way out of this.
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:clap: :clap: :clap:

And yes, I do have hope as well.
 
Nation names and movement times from Gatesville to TNP.

This includes only those that moved directly, not just around update, and isn't guaranteed to have them all either:

Yes almost all of them are here twice: that means that they /really/ came here :P Also that shows that the time they actually moved was probably roughly average of the two times shown.

Code: 
+------------------------+---------------------+
| nation_name            | event_time          |
+------------------------+---------------------+
| dreamtime_warriors     | 2007-07-17 22:50:32 | 
| dreamtime_warriors     | 2007-07-17 22:50:59 | 
| domocolees             | 2007-07-18 21:42:47 | 
| domocolees             | 2007-07-18 21:43:10 | 
| bar_tortuga            | 2007-07-18 22:20:20 | 
| bar_tortuga            | 2007-07-18 22:21:00 | 
| rocket_saws            | 2007-07-18 22:46:13 | 
| rocket_saws            | 2007-07-18 22:46:48 | 
| agricoast              | 2007-07-18 23:02:59 | 
| agricoast              | 2007-07-18 23:03:14 | 
| god_and_people         | 2007-07-18 23:09:59 | 
| zemiah                 | 2007-07-18 23:16:59 | 
| lazega                 | 2007-07-19 00:13:10 | 
| lazega                 | 2007-07-19 00:13:44 | 
| riot_rus               | 2007-07-19 00:26:24 | 
| riot_rus               | 2007-07-19 00:26:44 | 
| the_red_phoenix_nation | 2007-07-19 00:32:08 | 
| the_red_phoenix_nation | 2007-07-19 00:32:55 | 
| ultimate_master        | 2007-07-19 01:02:39 | 
| ultimate_master        | 2007-07-19 01:03:20 | 
| lareyna                | 2007-07-19 02:40:33 | 
| the_viking_warlords    | 2007-07-19 03:49:08 | 
| the_viking_warlords    | 2007-07-19 03:49:14 | 
| lucretz                | 2007-07-19 04:06:19 | 
| lucretz                | 2007-07-19 04:06:22 | 
| aegis_firestorm        | 2007-07-19 04:25:57 | 
| aegis_firestorm        | 2007-07-19 04:26:19 | 
| sol_reyalda            | 2007-07-19 04:35:45 | 
+------------------------+---------------------+
EDIT: Sorted. Times are PDT. (PST is UST -8)
 
With regard to what Gatesville will get out of this...

Nevadar is the one who really runs Gatesville these days. She considers Gates to be impotent and to have his head in the clouds. Furthermore, she has stated on numerous occasions that she believes Gatesville, and herself in particular, to be "entitled" in some way to possessing and controlling a Pacific. She's been working toward this goal for many months now, but I was unaware her target was TNP. There may be more information that I can provide, but I do not wish to provide it even here, in such a relatively open forum. It is of a more...sensative intelligence nature.
 
Probably not. We shall see. I need to check with sources, compile and parse through some data, and look at my records.

Edit: To be clear, I have nothing against the SC or anyone here. I'm just very, very, very paranoid.
 
The steps that were taken were obvious and necessary steps that common sense would show had to be taken to counterbalance Dalimbar's actions in the first place.

I doubt the joint statement of overnight would have happened without it.

As to the NPA, Ator, what is done publicly nee not distate what is done privately, I would think.

Gaspo, you could run your information by Flem as NPIA director, and the two of you could decide what is fit to be disclosed to the Security Council and the Cabinet. That is similar to the pproach I followed when the MoD had specific credible information that had to be tailored for public discussion on the proposal some had to wage offensive war. (That time we could let the SC make that decision; but since you feel this information is even more sensetive, using the NPIA would be your best bet. But if i were you, I'd also consider the possibility of briefing Upper Kirby directly.
 
Lord Valentine:
Grosse, I want you out of the constitution convention because I know you'll take it over and fill it up with legal mumbo-jumbo :P
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You still haven't responed to the point I made before.
Lord Valentine:
I concur. I'd also like to see Grosse take a backseat in any discussion of the constitution wink.gif
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me:
In exchange for what? And why should I penalized and not Dalimbar? II haven't done anything wrong or inappropriate in the entire time since the last power-hungry Delegate.
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If you are going to make such a demand of me, you need to put something of equal value to me on the table in exchange. And I don't have time these days for cow manure on the question.
 
Grosseschnauzer:
You still haven't responed to the point I made before.
Lord Valentine:
I concur. I'd also like to see Grosse take a backseat in any discussion of the constitution wink.gif
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me:
In exchange for what? And why should I penalized and not Dalimbar? II haven't done anything wrong or inappropriate in the entire time since the last power-hungry Delegate.
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If you are going to make such a demand of me, you need to put something of equal value to me on the table in exchange. And I don't have time these days for cow manure on the question.
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My point was seperate to the negotiation with Dalimbar; it was a personal request and somewhat of a joke.

[edit: Calmed down]

This discussion is about the problems with Dalimbar, rather than you, me, Blue Wolf, Poltasmaa, the invader hordes or anyone else. If you want to find out why exactly I don't believe you'd serve the best interests of TNP in any constitutional convention, then please feel free to PM me and I'll be happy to fill you in.
 
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