Dalimbar

Haor Chall

Haor Chall

The Power of the Dark Side
TNP Nation
Haor Chall
Few things; obviously need to look at our response- whether to still hold scheduled elections (start pretty soon IIRC), need to look at rounding up support internationally (statement from UK be good)- particularly considering the stuff from TWP's FM.
 
I'm not happy about Schwarz's tone and him trying to act as some kind of feederite Blair, I hope TAO does not have the same idea.

I am in the process of contacting the other feeders for their stance/views.
 
Haor Chall:
Few things; obviously need to look at our response- whether to still hold scheduled elections (start pretty soon IIRC), need to look at rounding up support internationally (statement from UK be good)- particularly considering the stuff from TWP's FM.
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I see little choice but to put elections on hold for the meantime. Finding how our allies stand on this would be highly beneficial, as well. EM, can you round up for us a list of treatied allies?

I am also awaiting a more detailed statement from UK.
 
Haor Chall:
Few things; obviously need to look at our response- whether to still hold scheduled elections (start pretty soon IIRC), need to look at rounding up support internationally (statement from UK be good)- particularly considering the stuff from TWP's FM.
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I have been busy with the, you know, 'doing stuff' side of affairs. This includes meeting with various members of the Order of Gryphons, trying to talk to Dalibmar, and discussing Schwarzchild with TAO.

Jumping in banners high like a bunch of kids gallivanting on hobby-horses is about the best sod way to go about this if what you want is a quick angry reaction and an escalation of the situation. TallyHo! and trumpets blare, but don't expect quick success or him to quickly forget about it.
 
Upper Kirby:
This includes meeting with various members of the Order of Gryphons, trying to talk to Dalibmar, and discussing Schwarzchild with TAO.
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As th Chapter Master of he Order in TNP, i would appreciate being kept advised of such discussions. The Chapter House is available and my duties would extend to discussions concerning the Order in NP.

As to elections, I would be adverse to allowing Dalimbar's behavior to interfere with elecions, That would be the same as letting his incorrect views prevail.
 
Grosse, logs of the discussion will be posted either here or on the Gryphorum once consent of all participants is acquired.

Also, such discussions took place at ungodly hours last night (2am - 4:30am CDT). However, I will try to better inform you of such activities in the future.
 
Right, I have messaged The East Pacific, The New Meritocracy, The Pacific, The South Pacific, Lazarus, England and The West Pacific with this message:

The North Pacific's democratically elected Delegate Dalimbar, under the nation of Chodean Kal,  went rogue on July 15th, no longer recognizing the legitimate government of The North Pacific, changing the factbook entry removing the link to the forums and attempted to take control of the government.

This is in no way acceptable in the eyes of the region as Dalimbar has broken his oath to the region and violated the trust of her members. Measures are being taken to secure The North Pacific back from this rogue Delegate.

However The North Pacific respectfully requests a statement from relevant region as to where she stands on the issue.

Kind Regards,

Emperor Matthuis
Minister of External Affairs for The North Pacific
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Now I'm going to bed.
 
Guys,

You are goign to need - quickly - to formulate some sort of response to Dalimbar's latest statement. You cannot assume that the rank and file will just support the elected goverment. in the absence of a voice from this side of the fence, people WILL fall in line behind DAlimbar, if they perceive no alternative.

There is a difference between Dali and GB or Pixiedance. Dali is still being friendly(ish) and displaying a willingness to talk. I urge you to use that. Come out with fists flying and his position will harden, and a chance of getting through this without war will be lost.

Post something that:

1. Expresses regret at the delegate's actions, and points out that you are the legally elected government of the region.
2. Recognises his frustration and desire to do what is right for the region.
3. questions whether the course he is on is in fact the best one for the region.
4. Offers to enter talks with him in order to see some way through this that unites rather than divides the region.
5. Says that should this be successful, there will be no trials, charges, recalls etc.
6. Suggests the setting up of a commission to look at how the Constitution can be altered to reflect better our current society and leads the community into a period of growth.
7. Looks forward to getting through this difficult period in North Paicfic life with friendships and community intact

I know this goes against the grain, but you need to do this FAST. If you do not do this today, tomorrow at the latest, you will be too late. And to many of those watching you will prove that Dalimbar is right when he says the government is slow, unwieldy and needs replacing.

Act now to save the constitution the easy way. PLease.
 
I have yet to re-read this or anything. Anyways, it's my suggestion for a statement. A bit (read: a lot) preachy and not exactly typical government decree fare, but oh well.

something quick:
It would be an understatement to say that we find the events of the past few days regrettable and alarming. We understand that you perceive there to be problems within the organization of the government. However, if you had grievances, there were and still are legitimate avenues of action available to you. At this point, we must re-emphasize that we are the legally elected officers of The North Pacific. Our democratic institutions may be imperfect, but they nevertheless allow any and all citizens a large degree of representation in regional affairs. We are disappointed that you chose to exchange our imperfect republic for tyranny instead of working from within its legal and democratic institutions for change.

Though by attempting to overthrow our government, you may have the region's best interests in mind, we must remind you that you are but one voice in a region of over four thousand. You do the entire region--every single nation--a disservice by removing their only avenue for formal representation. Remember that the Constitution that you declared void was the same one that elevated you to your office in the first place. What assurance do we or anyone have that this yet-to-be-unveiled new plan of yours would be little more than rule by fiat? What assurance can anyone have that you will not overturn whatever new government that may be formed?

However, this is not the time for admonishment. We hope that none of the parties involved wish war to break out. To this end, we propose a meeting during which we may discuss grievances and negotiate and implement solutions. Change does not have to come through revolution. (Is it not preferable to effect change through words of reconciliation and compromise?) We will listen and discuss things in an open and civil manner, finding answers that will be mutually appeasing.

As a sign of good faith, if such a meeting was successful, we, the current members of the elected TNP government, pledge not to pursue criminal charges now or ever regarding this, your overthrow of the Constitution.

At the most basic level, our goals are identical. We wish to see our community be healthy and more inclusive; we wish to see our region grow and prosper. Let us escalate the situation no further. Come together with us so that we may speak like rational men.
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We definately need to get something out ASAP. Personally I think that's a little too concilatory but maybe that's just me. I like the first paragraph however.
 
I would favour some a lot more tough that mentioned him breaking his oath and violating the truth of the thousands of members of The North Pacific. But I will support this as it is a start, I am slightly concerned that some of the Cabinet may not be totally loyal to The North Pacific however.
 
Personally, I think the time has passed for discussion and compromise. Dali clearly has a plan of his own for this new "government." I don't think anything we say will change that.

Perhaps this is the military side of me that is uncompromising. But I honestly think a statement to our delegate will not change his mind. I assume this has been in the planning for some time, and it is unlikely he will just throw it away.

We must take action while we have the chance. The NPA is already carrying out the statements of the Security Council and endorsing FEC to become delegate. But we need to be united in our struggle.

Flemingovia:
There is a difference between Dali and GB or Pixiedance. Dali is still being friendly(ish) and displaying a willingness to talk. I urge you to use that. Come out with fists flying and his position will harden, and a chance of getting through this without war will be lost.
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Friendly does not consist of declaring our government to be without authority. If he had a willingness to talk, he would not be putting a new regime hours from now. Our attempts to negotiate have been seen as attempts to distract him.

However, I will give my support to a statement should the Cabinet still wish issue one.
 
Emperor Matthuis:
I completely agree with what Ator says, but I think we should conduct future discussions in the Security Council area.
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I don't think it makes much difference.


Regarding Ators point. I agree slightly, however we must make some public statement -in fact as many as we can- not aimed at Dalimbar but aimed at the region and at other regions. At the moment our government appears silent as it is upsurped. We must give voice to our government, I'd suggest we even have more than one statement. If the Prime Minister releases one, then slightly later the cabinet releases one and perhaps a few more- we can keep things going. Make sure we get stuff posted in our embassies, that we are the TNP seen abroad.
 
What? Urm? I didn't say anything!

[edit]

Dalimbar has always had a touch of the Emo about him. Demoralising him should be our goal for as long as we are without external support.
 
Haor Chall:
Regarding Ators point. I agree slightly, however we must make some public statement -in fact as many as we can- not aimed at Dalimbar but aimed at the region and at other regions. At the moment our government appears silent as it is upsurped. We must give voice to our government, I'd suggest we even have more than one statement. If the Prime Minister releases one, then slightly later the cabinet releases one and perhaps a few more- we can keep things going. Make sure we get stuff posted in our embassies, that we are the TNP seen abroad.
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That's the best idea I've heard yet. In order to have a hope of being taken credibly, we must be seen as trying to actively do something about this.

Furthermore, as I said, my statement is a draft, written while half-awake at 3am. I agree that it is conciliatory. This is because, whether you like it or not, he has the upper hand. Dali is, unlike GB or PD, likeable. He has strong personal ties with many foreign regions, many of which we consider friends and allies of TNP. Our government is, despite being democratic and legal, seen with a bit of disdain across the NS world. Though definitely not wholly true, we are seen as slow, bureaucratic, and cliquish. It doesn't matter if it's true or not, but the fact of the matter remains that this view has (as we can see) lead many to give tepid support to our government. Moreover, who gets the moral support? It certainly isn't us.

It is true that Dali has been slow to act and slow to disseminate information. I am frustrated by this, as well. However, open lines of communication still hold hope for compromise.

Perhaps I'm being too pessimistic. Perhaps a homebrew effort with our high-influence citizens will restore democracy to the region. Regardless, outright war will ensure that the greater region loses out. This is why I am not as quick as some of you to jump on a military solution.

EM:
But I will support this as it is a start, I am slightly concerned that some of the Cabinet may not be totally loyal to The North Pacific however.
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What do you mean? The Private Cabinet Meeting Room is the best place to call people out like this, as we're equal peers and in private. Lay your claims openly.
 
Fine, I don't entirely trust all members of the cabinet.

I think Dalimbar has the upper hand but he must be seriously concerned by the high influence members working against him, maybe he expected that they would ally with him, I don't know.
 
My question is "where in the hell is Upper Kirby?" He is the Prime Minister, and he is the head of government. and he should be playing a role of visibility.

Second, One tactic is to get the remaining signatures for a recall. A vote in the Regional Assembly that goes against Dalimbar would be useful. As soon as the 15 signatures are in place, DD can proceed to call a recall elecion within 48 hours.

As to exactly what to say in a statemen, I'll leave to the surrent governmnt, my only role these days is that of an RA member and a member of the SC. But getting a demonstration of support from the RA would be a good move at this point. The statement should also recognize the Security Council's actions from the other day, and should be adopted by the Cabinet.
 
Emperor Matthuis:
Fine, I don't entirely trust all members of the cabinet.

I think Dalimbar has the upper hand but he must be seriously concerned by the high influence members working against him, maybe he expected that they would ally with him, I don't know.
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Okay, where do they stand? After all, you can't seriously imagine that he hasn't been courting them, as well?

*makes a mental note to go talk to Eras and co. soon*

As far as UK goes, I'm pretty sure he's working the backrooms like crazy right now. To be honest, there hasn't been that much to publicly respond to, unless you want to rip apart foreign leaders like whoa. In this case, I think it would be better if we pushed out a statement collectively than cast UK out there all by his lonesome.
 
Monte Ozarka:
As far as UK goes, I'm pretty sure he's working the backrooms like crazy right now. To be honest, there hasn't been that much to publicly respond to, unless you want to rip apart foreign leaders like whoa. In this case, I think it would be better if we pushed out a statement collectively than cast UK out there all by his lonesome.
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I agree.

We need to be doing three things now (and frankly, I'm surpised they haven't been finished already).

We need to be ensuring that our current old-guard and high rankers are sufficiently comfortable with remaining in the old system. Dalimbar --if he's sensible-- will be attempting to woo them with power and influence under his new regime, so we need to ensure that the put the need of the region over their own personal gains.

Secondly, we need to be ensuring our allies understand that Dalimbar either poses a threat to them or will not provide them with the support of the North Pacific. This is a little more difficult now because TNP has very little external influence, and the NPA is so small that it's hardly a threat to most organised regions. Even so, a priority must be made on isolating Dalimbar's regime from the rest of the world.

Thirdly, we need to be speaking to the public. Keep the forum on the RMB, get newbies on to the forum. War is good for activity.
 
Well Great Bights Mum, Former English Colony and Unter have all said and started helping us, as I'm sure that Kitabo will as well.

Secondly, I might need some help with that MO and LV.

Thirdly, well I've telegrammed every UN nation in the region detailing what has happened and with a link to the forums, took me about six mind-numbing hours.
 
Emperor Matthuis:
Secondly, I might need some help with that MO and LV.
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I'd be happy to pitch in. Who have you talked to so far, and what's the general mood?

I was going to prod at least prod TAO, Westwind, and check in with Eras, GBM, and Unter today. Maybe Gatesville and Taijitu, too, but I don't really know anyone there too particularly well (besides Kor and Elu and a few Gryphons in Taijitu)... :/
 
I have used my Admin powers to change the statement at the top of the forum page to urge endorement of FEC, and the others (Unter, Kitabo, GBM) and to unendorse Dalimbar.

EM, I know I should have added you, but is here anyone else UK has approved?
 
Well I asked all the leaders of The Pacifics, Gnidrah, TAO and Moo came here to give a statement/opinion, although TAO said that The West Pacific was considering its position. Jasque said he would get an answer from the Consul of The New Meritocracy soon. I don't really expect a reply from Fudgie, Delegate of The South Pacific. I meant to ask Kandarin, so I will do that now. I guess I could ask the ACCEL and Gatesville? PoD Gunner gave a fairly neutral answer on behalf of Taijitu, but I'm a Supreme Court Justice over there so I will go and get an official answer.
 
As an aside to the election commissioner thing, I plan to run for SC, but nothing else besides that. If that takes me out of the Electoral Commissioner job, ok. If not, I'll do it.

More on the Dalimbar thing later, busy w/ work right now.
 
Since my draft as it stands is unlikely to get a majority of aye's, someone please make some amendments or forward your own suggestion. It'd be great if this could be wrapped up in the next few hours so that we have something to show the NS world before they go to bed.
 
The SC has never been considered an "elected office" so being a candidate wouldn't be affected. You need to find out wat UK intends to do. If he's not running then you'll have 2 Commissioners, if he is running, then you could run it yourself.

As to the author authorized nations for endorsements, I'll add them in in a minute.

Edited to note that AP, EM, and HC have been added to the banner notice.
 
I'd rather not do it all myself, if we can find someone else. It's quite a bit of work, and I do have duties as MoIIA around election time, what with auditing the entire RA roster, etc.
 
This is my version, shorter and tougher.

The democratically elected government of The North Pacific finds the actions committed by Chodean Kal (Dalimbar) both regrettable, deplorable and alarming. We understand that our government is not perfect, however it does allow all citizens a great degree of representation and in our opinion is one of the best democracies in NationStates. We are disappointed that Dalimbar has broken his oath of the region, ignored the Constitution and most importantly violated the trust of this region's members.

Dalimbar did not attempt to explore any of the legitimate avenues of change and instead is attempting to overthrow the legitimate governent of The North Pacific. Although we sympathise that he may have had the region's best interests at heart, we are forced to remind him that you are but one voice in a region of over four thousand. Dalimbar does the entire region--every single nation--a disservice by removing their only avenue for formal representation. It must be remembered that the Constitution that Dalimbar declared void was the same one that elevated him to his trusted office in the first place.

Although Dalimbar has provided no assurances that his new regime will not be dictatorial, we are still willing to, in good faith, meet Dalimbar and pledge not to pursue criminal charges now or ever regarding this crisis and the overthrow of the Constitution if we are satisfied with the results. Nobody wants a civil war but we must stress that we will to see a return to the fundamental principles of democracy and tolerance that The North Pacific stands for.
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Just a note about the forum box at the top of the page:

What if we re-designed it with just that message about endorsements. Because most of the other news is really outdated. I can design something if you want.


And yes to the above statement if the grammar is corrected. (we are forced to remind him that he is but one voice in a region of over four thousand)
 
Grosseschnauzer:
My question is "where in the hell is Upper Kirby?" He is the Prime Minister, and he is the head of government. and he should be playing a role of visibility.
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Do you just choose to ignore my posts, or... what? *waves* *jumps up and down* I don't know how many times I have to remind you that I'm here.

Second, One tactic is to get the remaining signatures for a recall. A vote in the Regional Assembly that goes against Dalimbar would be useful.  As soon as the 15 signatures are in place, DD can proceed to call a recall elecion within 48 hours.
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Why? Hasn't the Security Council already made its vote? Isn't the obvious action of the government either: a) reconcile or b) remove him, for the sake of the continued existence of the government? If the latter, then it isn't necessary. Not that I'm entirely poopooing it, but red tape isn't going to save our skins back to a life where we can afford to be hamstrung by red tape again, and beginning open recall/overthrow efforts will nix a in the butt without hope of trying that again.

And we haven't even had a full and transparent vote, to be conducted between 48 and 72 hours with an extra 10 hours for ballot counting, about which of the two options we collectively want to delegate some people to st up a study commission to recommend which of a and b we'd like to pursue. :eyeroll:



You know I love you Grosse.

Emperor Matthius:
Well I asked all the leaders of The Pacifics, Gnidrah, TAO and Moo came here to give a statement/opinion, although TAO said that The West Pacific was considering its position.
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They blame us for communication problems that I thought I had resolved with them didn't actually exist.
Jasque said he would get an answer from the Consul of The New Meritocracy soon.
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Expect the Consul to be pro-Dalimbar.
I guess I could ask the ACCEL and Gatesville?
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The first one is dead, but expect both of them to act (or not act) in favor of whichever side will benefit them more.
 
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