Investigative Comittees

mr_sniffles

mr_sniffles

TNPer
The point of this procedure is to allow committees to be formed within the RA to investigate any wrongdoing or potential wrongdoing by the ever distant Cabinet Ministries. This allows the citizens to be informed or at least make recommendations as to how better run the the Ministry outside of Constitutional duties.

To be a citizen is to be informed, while I opposed permanent comittees for each specific Ministries from the beginning, I believe given recent examples of gross incompetence the citizens should have the right to know the how and why whether a Ministry or Cabinet as a whole to be investigated. As you can't delete posts and edits are timed, if they have nothing to hide then no harm will be committed.

And so I propose a new RA Procediure, requiring quorum and 50+1% approval.

Article 1:
a) By a petition of at least ten members of the Regional Assembly, the Speaker must form a comittee of 5 elected Regional Assembly members not involved in the matter being investigated.
b) The Speaker holds the right to call a comittee without a petition, if they choose so.
c) Members of the comittee would be elected as they would within the Security Council, where the top five number of candidates with the most votes shall form the comittee. The election shall be within the 72 hours as defined by Art 4.1.F of the Consitution. A quorum will need to be reached as per Art 4.5.

Article 2:
a) Each member investigated will testify to the best of their ability and live up to the Oath taken, when granted citizenship:
"I, ______, pledge to obey the Constitution and Laws of The North Pacific Region, and to act as a responsible member of its society. I understand that if my Nation leaves The North Pacific region for reasons other than participation in North Pacific Army deployments, that I may be stripped of my right to vote and required to reapply. I pledge to only register one Nation to vote in The North Pacific. I understand that if any nation under my control directly wages war against the North Pacific, or allies themselves with a region waging war, declared or not, against the North Pacific, this shall warrant the summary withdrawal of my right to vote from all my Nations, past, present, and future, as well as possible expulsion from the Region. I understand that my registration of, or attempt to register, multiple Nations to vote in The North Pacific shall warrant the summary withdrawal of my right to vote from all my Nations, past, present, and future, as well as possible expulsion from the Region. In this manner, I petition the Regional Government of The North Pacific region for membership in the Regional Assembly."
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b) The new subforum for comittees shall be open to all Regional Assembly members however only comittee members and those testifying will be allowed to post.
c) A public gallery thread, separate from that of the investigation thread will be allowed.
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Yes I know we don't have perjury laws but we do have recall. So let the public decide. Alright hounds rip it apart!
 
1 point...elections for the commitee. Will that be quick enough for the committee to be effective.

Second point: what does the committee do post formation? What is the end result?
 
Fulhead Land:
1 point...elections for the commitee. Will that be quick enough for the committee to be effective.

Second point: what does the committee do post formation? What is the end result?
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It airs testimony to the public, offers recommedations if need be, explains why a certain something happened but more importantly serve as evidence should anything illegal happen.

Obviously it can't overpower the courts, it's not the point; the point is to have a real group of fellow members see what's going on when something seems off.

3 days is too long for an election? It's tough to meet quorum with a one or two day vote unless using the dreaded mass PM's.

Since we can't exactly give votes of non-confidence and ship off a naughty minister, but we do have recall which can only be signed off by a judge. This way we can not only show how disgruntled the citizens are but proof that an impeachment recall gets rid of him/her quick, and charge them so they can't run later.
 
Er. This all seems rather advisory, no? Does it actually have the power to do anything?

Does it have the power to issue subpoenas? Does it have the power to compel testimony from the ministries? Does it have the power to request and/or receive sensitive information (i.e. NPIA ops)?
 
This seems pointless to me and just adds another layer of bureacracy. My first concern is whether we really have enough members to start forming comittees to oversee our Ministers. This seems to be like the Regional Task Force idea, which has not been a success.

To be a citizen is to be informed, while I opposed permanent comittees for each specific Ministries from the beginning, I believe given recent examples of gross incompetence the citizens should have the right to know the how and why whether a Ministry or Cabinet as a whole to be investigated.
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What 'gross incompetence' have happened?
 
Emperor Matthuis:
This seems pointless to me and just adds another layer of bureacracy. My first concern is whether we really have enough members to start forming comittees to oversee our Ministers. This seems to be like the Regional Task Force idea, which has not been a success.

To be a citizen is to be informed, while I opposed permanent comittees for each specific Ministries from the beginning, I believe given recent examples of gross incompetence the citizens should have the right to know the how and why whether a Ministry or Cabinet as a whole to be investigated.
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What 'gross incompetence' have happened?
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It's not bureaucracy when they're elected officials. The Regional taskforce was just a handpicked group of volunteers without a clear leadership or mission. These committee members will run for an election to demand a response from those in leadership, to fish out the facts, and to see how they can better serve the Regional Assembly.

It's to truly inform the public and investigate matters before the courts draw them out in their usual state of time.

Gross Incompetence:
Limitless Events' spying and questionable approval of RA candidates.
The inefficient and disorganized state of our Intelligence Agencies
The Vice Del being shoved into the Del
GBM's banning of Activini
The trial of Fulhead Land
Inactive ministers and ministries
Stray deputies
and lastly off the top of my head, the University.

Currently there is no organized way for citizens to know how their government is run. Allowing the whimpered consent every three months in the hopes of an honest and open official has been the dream and has been partially fulfilled. But when misconduct happens, should we not as citizens have the right to ask questions in a public forum?
 
I have to take issue with the accusation of gross incompetence with regard to my banning of Activini. This was a nation who not only endotarted the entire region, but also ran a successful unendorsement campaign against me. The SC gave me authority to ban him. When it looked like I would indeed be unseated come update, I ejected him in order to preserve the influence levels of the next Delegate.

Explain to me what was wrong with that.
 
mr_sniffles:
[...]
Gross Incompetence:
[...]
and lastly off the top of my head, the University.
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As the new Chancellor of the University, I would just like everyone to know that we are well on our way to opening the doors of the University very soon. I have received approval by the Board on a number of my proposals, and this week I will be posting the schedule to begin the opening of the University.
 
This does not have my support for reasons mentioned in this thread. Can't see a good way to improve it to my liking, so I'll leave it at that.
 
Great Bights Mum:
I have to take issue with the accusation of gross incompetence with regard to my banning of Activini. This was a nation who not only endotarted the entire region, but also ran a successful unendorsement campaign against me. The SC gave me authority to ban him. When it looked like I would indeed be unseated come update, I ejected him in order to preserve the influence levels of the next Delegate.

Explain to me what was wrong with that.
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The problem was the legality of it. If you remember it correctly, I supported your actions but a large number of citizens thought it went beyond the parameters of what the SC authorized. (Should Activini continue to endo-tart, not overtake you in the endo count before the SC demanded he stop tarting.) Not saying you should've been impeached but thought it should've been better explained to the region with recommendations as to how it could have been better dealt in the future.

There are still questions around it and what I'm saying is that that's not right. Not the action but the questions and the feeling by some citizens that this was buried only because you were at the end of your term, thus impeachment a useless tactic.

I was asked why these committees needed to be formed should the citizens demand answers, and this is my answer. I'm not here to attack people but to set up a system, in which elected officials justify their duties should the citizens feel left out, ignored, or wronged. Don't we deserve to be better informed?
 
Ator People:
mr_sniffles:
[...]
Gross Incompetence:
[...]
and lastly off the top of my head, the University.
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As the new Chancellor of the University, I would just like everyone to know that we are well on our way to opening the doors of the University very soon. I have received approval by the Board on a number of my proposals, and this week I will be posting the schedule to begin the opening of the University.
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Yes, and I'm glad that's happening and in fact I hope to be a teacher. But what went wrong when it was originally announced and ever since then? (The past two years at least.)
 
I have this sudden picture of us endlessly raking over things that have taken place long ago, forming committee after committee with no authority to actually do anything about the things they are investigating, for no better reason than to give folks an opportunity to whine and bitch.

Generally speaking, when things have gone wrong, people with half a brain cell can learn the lessons from that and move on, without an "House Committee on Un-North Pacifican Activities" to rake over the ashes.
 
The trial of Fulhead Land
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I am neither gross nor incompetent!


To go back to MrS's first retort to me, prehaps we should be looking at a vote of no confidence system rather than a powerless comittee type dealio
 
Grosseschnauzer:
You already have a vote of no confidence system.

It's known as Recall. And it was adopted last term.
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A Vote of No Confidence is done by majority vote.

"Recall shall pass if at least three-quarters of the votes cast support Recall." (TNP Constitution Article V Section 9 Clause E sentence 2)

I think there's somewhat of a difference there.
 
The point is that the RA already has a system to remoe a officeholder by a vote in mid-term. A three-quarters requirement is used to prevent abuse.

A ote of no confidence system on top of it, with a majroty vote would be easily abused. It's more prudent to try the recall system first before adding something that can be so easily abused.
 
It means using it before there is discussion of yet another duplicative approach.

I introduced the recall proposal when it becme apparent that impeachment by trial usally ended with a statute o limitation solution. And the Prime Minister has the authority to request the removal of a Cabinet Minister due to inactivity.
 
So let me get this straight.

Until we go ahead and try and gather 3/4 of the RA to vote to recall some official it will not have been tried? Or do I misunderstand?
 
Eluvatar:
So let me get this straight.

Until we go ahead and try and gather 3/4 of the RA to vote to recall some official it will not have been tried? Or do I misunderstand?
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We're not trying anybody. We're just setting up a system where elected officials can get some answers when things seem fishy and cabinet members are just blank faces.
 
So let me get this straight.

Until we go ahead and try and gather 3/4 of the RA to vote to recall some official it will not have been tried? Or do I misunderstand?
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Eluvater, are you sure you even bothered to read the Recall process in the Constitution?

fail to see any justifiable reason to treat motions of no confidence to remove officeholders when there is already a recall process in place. The lack of any constraint will lead to abuses of such a motion of no confidence, and lead to wholesale paralysis of government.

In addition, I believe the current proposal for "investigative" committees will lead to witch hunts and persecution of whoever a particular committee wants to harrass and intimidate to promote a minority political agenda.

There is no evidence to show that "investigative" committes would be benefitial or useful. It's a pipedream,. It may sound to the untrained ear like a good idea, but it is not.

Citing the university is a bad example, since th problem appears to have been a personnel issue involving several people who took on the responsibility but found themselves unwilling and unable to do their job. One left office at the end of their term, the second agreed to resign so a replacement could be elected, and a third resigned from the region, and the RA elected a replacement.

You will notice that once the new people were in place, the process began to move along much more quickly. Would any meaningful purpose be served by an investigative committee? I don't think so.
 
I must speak vehemently against this proposal. Those who have the power will use it as a rod and spoil the child! Why what if George Orwell were a member of The North Pacific and he enraged many of its distinguished citizens with his socialist rhetoric. I assure you, gentlemen, that we would soon discover Mr Orwell's cross-dressing rituals. Saucy black numbers with frilly sidings. What a dreadful sight it would be. No one wants to see an old man in women's knickers and that's exactly what would happen if this proposal progresses any further.
 
I can see this proposal offering security issues. Though the public has the right to be informed, what's to happen when an investigation of say...the intelligence agency reveals critical classified information potentially threatening the safety and stability of our government from would be adversaries? Perhaps something more simple and less invasive.

What about initiating weekly reports from cabinet ministries open to all RA. The reports would highlight important things happening in the cabinets we may not otherwise know about. This will allow the people to be more informed, and keep the intergrety of security concerns.
 
It's a matter of allowing the cabinet to function to its fullest extent and excellence. Think of it as a Wizard of Oz scenario. The Wizard's government ruled fairly well until that ungrateful wretch Dorothy and her dog pulled away his curtain and revealed that he was just a five-foot-tall swindler. What was Oz left with? A cowardly lion, a tin man, and a mentally challenged straw man. If the curtain is removed we'll be left with nothing but straw men, lions, and Glinda. To protect the government, and by extension the body that elected it, the cabinet should not be subject to these committees.
 
I agree. Perhaps I worded my last post poorly because I get the feeling you're trying to convince me of what I already believe.

Or maybe you're just stating you agree also.. hmmm.
 
This proposal came out of the problems that came to light shortly before the elections in May. Theremedy t those probems require something other than "investigative committees," especially where there is a Security Council, and where the current constitutional procedure is for the NPIA to report to the Prime Minister diectly.

The Prime Minister is the head of government here. Issue affecting regional security usually go to the securty council (and the Delegate, the Prime Minister and the Minister of Defense all have access to the council, along with the NPA and the NPIA.

here are other problems with this proposal, that I've not made a point of previously, but one should be mentioned now. Having an eleced committee may or may not result in having a commitee membership tha is qualified to handle the "investigation." It may or may not result is the selection of the most popular raher than the most ualified, especially when it's being done in the he and passion of a particular issue de jour.
 
Grosseschnauzer:
Having an eleced committee may or may not result in having a commitee membership tha is qualified to handle the "investigation." It may or may not result is the selection of the most popular raher than the most ualified, especially when it's being done in the he and passion of a particular issue de jour.
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That be said of democratic government in general.
 
I feel that my sentiments are best expressed with the following parable.


There was once, or perhaps twice, a young man named Ragnoktic. For the sake of simplicity, we will focus on one such instanse in particular. In this instance, Ragnoktic was a young boy living in Fedele with nary a penny to his name. You see, the government before the GLORIOUS REVOLUTION had taxed the lower class heavily and had brought many of them further into poverty than they already were. The people in general said nothing but Ragnoktic asked his mother, "Mother, why does the emperor take our money and keep it for himself?" Ragnoktic's mother quickly struck him in the face and told him not to ask such questions. Ragnoktic then, being an insubordinate bastard (literally), went out to find the answer for himself. He asked a group of elders sitting around an impovershed camp fire and they grumbled without answering his question. Ragnoktic continued his quest. He walked along the road until he found an imperial guard extorting due taxes from a fellow citizen. He crept up behind the guard and drew his knife. The citizen opened his eyes and mouth wide in astonishment as Ragnoktic slipped his knife quickly into the back of the guard's head and dropped the limp body to the ground. He then began to undress the guard's corpse, not out of perverse sexuality but rather in line with a brilliant plan. He put on the guard's clothes and suited himself up as neatly as possible. Ragnoktic then mounted the horse and rode toward the palace. The guards, seeing his uniform, let him through and he rode to the door where other imperial debt collectors were unloading their bounties. Ragnoktic followed the others through the halls and into the throne room of the emperor. The emperor called them forth one at a time and had them show what bounty they had collected. He then gave them their share and sent them back out. When Ragnoktic was called forth, he placed the money on the table. The emperor was pleased and gave him six silver pieces in reward. Ragnoktic then asked, "Esteemed Emperor, what is done with this money? Does it feed the hungry? Does it clothe the naked? Does it heal the sick? Does it protect our borders from foreigners? What good comes of this?" The emperor, shocked, said that the money was for his use and his use alone and commanded Ragnoktic to go back out unto the streets to collect more. Ragnoktic was infuriated and pulled his knife from behind and hurled it at the emperor, catching him in the top right segment of his chest. Ragnoktic was immediately gunned down. Though Ragnoktic died, the story of his bold act was quickly relayed to the public and the seeds of the GLORIOUS REVOLUTION were planted in the hearts and minds of the people.


That said, a committee is not necessary. The people simply need to ask questions and demand answers.
 
I am pretty sure nobody has ever been shot in the course of TNP history. Mind you, it is not for want of trying.
 
Eluvatar:
flemingovia:
I am pretty sure nobody has ever been shot in the course of TNP history. Mind you, it is not for want of trying.
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Under some interpretations, hundreds of nations were 'shot' and 'killed' in the Pixiedance wars.
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Oh lawdy the humanity of it all. We lost so many puppets. They'll never be replaceable... They were our friends...
 
Gaspo:
Oh lawdy the humanity of it all. We lost so many puppets. They'll never be replaceable... They were our friends...
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*Namyeknom spares a thought for the ventriloquists of The North Pacific, for who this is sadly true...
 
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