The Pacific Issue

:2c: Not sure that the NPIA operation was a /bad/ thing in theory. Working against a sister-feeder is ill-advised though, especially when we can't trust the operatives fullfilling the missions.
 
Lord Valentine:
:2c: Not sure that the NPIA operation was a /bad/ thing in theory. Working against a sister-feeder is ill-advised though, especially when we can't trust the operatives fullfilling the missions.
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It was a bad idea, and unnecessary.

Will other NPIA operatives be questioned so that the cleaning up of the NPIA will be thorough in its scope?
 
I would be in favor of giving Flem posting permissions.

Also, I agree with Vitrionia. An intelligence agency should be willing to take a calculated risk to infiltrate any region--even friendly regions--if necessary. Few things should be outside the scope of what an intel agency can and can't do, in my opinion. The problem with our judging this operation is that it ultimately resulted in a flop. Hindsight is 20/20, and although the risk/benefit of this op may now seem to be disproportionately costly, it may not have been so in November.

By the way, where is EM? Has someone started a draft of an apology yet?

(Sorry for the recent absence, btw. The boyfriend came yesterday and will be visiting me for 2.5 weeks or so. :tb2: )
 
Upper Kirby:
<snip>I intend my focus to be on setting affairs right in our own house. Before I get to that, I'll remark that No, I don't intend to provoke the NPO into a war and I do hope to set a few things straight with them. Who wants to join the Super Diplomat Crisis Action Negotiation Team? Inquire within. </snip>
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:bunny:
 
Upper Kirby:
Upper Kirby:
<snip>I intend my focus to be on setting affairs right in our own house. Before I get to that, I'll remark that No, I don't intend to provoke the NPO into a war and I do hope to set a few things straight with them. Who wants to join the Super Diplomat Crisis Action Negotiation Team? Inquire within. </snip>
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:bunny:
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I would like to join the team UK! :D
 
Also, I agree with Vitrionia. An intelligence agency should be willing to take a calculated risk to infiltrate any region--even friendly regions--if necessary. Few things should be outside the scope of what an intel agency can and can't do, in my opinion. The problem with our judging this operation is that it ultimately resulted in a flop. Hindsight is 20/20, and although the risk/benefit of this op may now seem to be disproportionately costly, it may not have been so in November.
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I would like to disagree. Everything needs some boundary to it, without boundaries then things can run amuck and that is how we wound up in this gigantic mess. And I firmly believe that the NPIA's missions/operations need to deal with the maintaining and protection of this regions security. Isn't that why we have an intel agency?

I suppose I could stretch that and see us allowing the NPIA to help out an ally, but the SU was no ally, and neither was the NPO. And the infiltration of the NPO and the aiding and abetting of the region Supreme Union did not relate or pertain to one of our allies or to our own security.

That mission did not have to occur and I see no reason for it. This is why more oversight needs to happen and the reformation of the NPIA needs to happen. And if the NPIA needs to act outside of its mandate then it should have the approval from the PM and/or cabinet.
 
What I meant was that the NPIA should have no boundaries in carrying out its mission of protecting TNP and its allies. If that means infiltrating our very own allies, so be it. It is up to the good judgment of those in power and those with oversight to prevent such boundaries from being crossed without due reason. The operation itself may be, in hindsight, ill-advised, but mainly in that it got public. Let's review:
  • The NPO was stretching its military might by taking over the SU.
  • It is arguably bad for TNP if the NPO got too cocky and tried to take on imperialistic ideals.
  • It is far easier and efficient to nip something in the bud than to try to contain a sprawling power.
  • An early defeat would set back any blooming NPO imperialistic tendencies.
  • According to Mesian, the end result of his NPO activities was that he was able to muster up some forces to dedicate to an organized liberation of the SU. This is undeniably an operational success.
Therefore, a mission to aid the SU in some fashion without disturbing formal TNP-NPO relations would have made some sense. When one factors in the danger of having it be uncovered, well, then, it's a guessing game. It's still a worthy mission, but the costs may outweigh the benefits. Hersfold, apparently, did not think so. Anyways, the mission was undeniably successful, and it would have continued being successful if this freak occurrence hadn't happened.

In short, I thought it to be a worthy mission. However, its devolution has underscored lingering control issues within the NPIA, as well as matters regarding agent competence and protocol. Those are the things that need to get fixed. Trying to limit the scope of an agency that makes it its job to circumvent rules and knowledge seems rather pointless to me.
 
Just to note, SU wast never liberated. The NPO left the instant its demands were met, and SU was only invaded when several days of diplomacy failed be met with any response beyond disdain.
 
Gaspo:
Just to note, SU wast never liberated. The NPO left the instant its demands were met, and SU was only invaded when several days of diplomacy failed be met with any response beyond disdain.
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I'm aware of that. But judging from Mesian's orders to get a group together and be prepared to move, it seemed like his mission was successful, even if the overall purpose is not.
 
But if his mission was to oget people together, h ow exactly does riling up the NPO and raising their alertness work to accomplish that goal? And how exactly does causing trouble on the NPO forums at alll fit into that? Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but when your orders are to get people together, you generally, y'know, get some people ready. On IRC and IMs and such. Not on the forums of your foe. >_>
 
Monte Ozarka:
What I meant was that the NPIA should have no boundaries in carrying out its mission of protecting TNP and its allies. If that means infiltrating our very own allies, so be it. It is up to the good judgment of those in power and those with oversight to prevent such boundaries from being crossed without due reason. The operation itself may be, in hindsight, ill-advised, but mainly in that it got public. Let's review:
  • The NPO was stretching its military might by taking over the SU.
  • It is arguably bad for TNP if the NPO got too cocky and tried to take on imperialistic ideals.
  • It is far easier and efficient to nip something in the bud than to try to contain a sprawling power.
  • An early defeat would set back any blooming NPO imperialistic tendencies.
  • According to Mesian, the end result of his NPO activities was that he was able to muster up some forces to dedicate to an organized liberation of the SU. This is undeniably an operational success.
Therefore, a mission to aid the SU in some fashion without disturbing formal TNP-NPO relations would have made some sense. When one factors in the danger of having it be uncovered, well, then, it's a guessing game. It's still a worthy mission, but the costs may outweigh the benefits. Hersfold, apparently, did not think so. Anyways, the mission was undeniably successful, and it would have continued being successful if this freak occurrence hadn't happened.

In short, I thought it to be a worthy mission. However, its devolution has underscored lingering control issues within the NPIA, as well as matters regarding agent competence and protocol. Those are the things that need to get fixed. Trying to limit the scope of an agency that makes it its job to circumvent rules and knowledge seems rather pointless to me.
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The NPO felt violated and took measures to correct that. That is a much reduced and simplified version of those events, yes.

[*]The NPO was stretching its military might by taking over the SU.
[*]It is arguably bad for TNP if the NPO got too cocky and tried to take on imperialistic ideals.
[*]It is far easier and efficient to nip something in the bud than to try to contain a sprawling power.
[*]An early defeat would set back any blooming NPO imperialistic tendencies.
[*]According to Mesian, the end result of his NPO activities was that he was able to muster up some forces to dedicate to an organized liberation of the SU. This is undeniably an operational success.
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First I agree with Gaspo, and he is most certainly correct here. The NPO forces left once their demands were met, so your argument that Mesian was able to organize forces for a liberation was a success is not all that true. Organizing the forces is the easy part, had he carried out the liberation that would have been the true challenge and a whole other story.

The NPO stretching its military might into SU had no, no bearing on our region or our allies what so ever and any reasoning opposite to that is a mere fallacy. Imperialistic ideals or not, until it actually effects us or our allies or that we have CONCRETE evidence that it WILL effect us then we have no damned business sticking our hands into the cookie jar.

It was obvious TNP's government was against the NPO incursion into Supreme Union and so were some of the backers of that government. It would have been one story to have sent in NPA forces for a liberation and it is a whole other thing when the NPIA takes matters into its own hands that far excedes what its reach and grasp should be. And that is how we got oursevles into this wretched mess. We thought we should get involved in matters that had no effect on this region.

There was no worth in this mission for the members of this region. Other then to serve the righteous indignation of certain people.

The operation itself may be, in hindsight, ill-advised, but mainly in that it got public.
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Hindsight, foresight, or anything else the mission was a bad idea from the conception of it.

I do not apologize for the harsh tone of my message. I feel it is what I need to say and convey. I am not attacking one person, and lord knows what I would have done if I had been in the shoes of the Director of the NPIA. All I am offering is my perpsective, honestly and earnestly.

And finally...

Who are we to judge the actions of one set of people who we consider to be imperialistic when our own intelligence agency was operating basically outside the grasp of the legitimate government and we must figure out how that happened and how to fix that.
 
Gaspo:
But if his mission was to oget people together, h ow exactly does riling up the NPO and raising their alertness work to accomplish that goal?  And how exactly does causing trouble on the NPO forums at alll fit into that?  Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but when your orders are to get people together, you generally, y'know, get some people ready.  On IRC and IMs and such.  Not on the forums of your foe. >_>
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I believe that it was stated somewhere that Mesian needed to rile up the NPO and build an image as a disgruntled subversive to get some street cred with the SU people. Too lazy to find the post right now; gotta go get Sarah Silverman tickets.

EDIT: In the same post, I think he said that he got into contact with them first, but they didn't believe him (being a third party with no official TNP authorization, after all). Thus, forum hijinks.
 
Monte Ozarka:
I believe that it was stated somewhere that Mesian needed to rile up the NPO and build an image as a disgruntled subversive to get some street cred with the SU people. Too lazy to find the post right now; gotta go get Sarah Silverman tickets.
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Those were the orders supposedly given to him by Hersfold. Still was a bad move.
 
Thank you for permission to post in this area. Perhaps I can help shed some light on this?

One issue I want to address immediately: The allegation the NPIA members were instructed to vote in the RA in a certain way, and that NPIA members constitute a "Bloc" of voters.

It is bollocks. Pure and simple. I am drawing on my own recollection of the time, and an extensive trawl of NPIA threads.

I cannot say what Mesian was instructed to do (although he is losing credibility in my eyes with each post), but I can say for certain that there was no general orders to vote in a certain way.

Knowing the people in the NPIA, who tend to be independently minded people at the best of times, I am sure such an attempt would have been met with derision and mockery. I was not told to vote in a certain way on that or any other occasion.

It is tempting with a "whistleblower" to assume that ever tittle they come up with is the truth: after all, you usually have no alternative version of events to compare it to. But be aware that Mesian has a political agenda of his own that he is promoting, and filter what he says with that in mind.

And that leads me to another of his assertions.

it was standard operating procedure to find ways to manipulate the law to ensure that NPIA controlled almost everything from the media to the juries in the court room.
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What a load of crap. I think Mesian is confusing us with the Illuminati. The NPIA has been barely active in the past few months: the suggestion that we have been secretly controlling the whole region from our secret bat-cave is, frankly, laughable. The NPO may lap such things up, but I hope we have more sense. I really hope any statement from the Cabinet lays such rumours to rest.

In fact: Look into my eyes. Look into my eyes. The eyes. The eyes. Not around the eyes. Don't look around my eyes. Look into my eyes... You're under. You WILL tell the NPO exactly what I tell you to. 1,2,3 you are back in the room.

See? It doesn't work, does it?
 
Thanks for clearing that up, Flem.

I don't want to argue that the NPO operation was a good idea, because I'd hate to advocate spying on our allies, but I believe we must all take a step back and realize that most things are acceptable in the terms of furthering our interests. I perhaps wouldn't have advocated this mission to defend SU, but I'd hardly want to cripple the NPIA so we can't use it when we need to defend ourselves.
 
Concerning operations involving the Pacific.....

The Pacific is probably the most volatile of the feeders. During my time in NS I have seen it (discounting the thedoc period) move from militaristic, anti-TNP, NPO to a more open PRP. Then it closed ranks again with the NPO mark 2, with more quasi-religious overtones. With each new regime there has been a realigning of their postition regarding the North Pacific ranging from at war to hostile to indifferent to friendly. Who knows what their government type or attitude to TNP will be in the weeks to come?

What is certain is that in the past the Pacific has interfered in the life of this region. Most obviously this was in the UPSRail and Great Bight era, but also in the Pixiedance/Stars of Sky era. There are a number of other, less serious, occasions that I am aware of but are not the matter of public record.

What this means is that you lot ought to be getting worried if the NPIA are NOT keeping an eye on the NPO (who, by the way, are not our allies. We have an embassy sharing agreement with them, not an alliance treaty).

There are no NPIA operations currently authorised against the NPO, but with the possible exception of the Lexicon, they are historically the group we ought to be watching. I would be remiss in my duties as director if I did not make that logical assessment.

Moo Cows with Guns has said....

Any nation ordered to our region to stir up trouble or even just to hang around and "see what is up" is a violation of our sovereignty.
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...but there is a lot of difference between keeping an eye on a neighbour and trying to impinge on their regional sovereignty.

I will not be ordering any direct action against the NPO without authorisation from our PM. But I would be remiss in my duties if I said we would not be keeping an eye on the NPO.
 
I do not want to impinge on your private forums for longer than necessary. Does anyone have any questions or areas you would like me to comment on?
 
Why does the NPO keep claiming they have never sent an agent into our government to disrupt or infiltrate it? Basic history knows otherwise. I am not still holding actions from three years ago against them, but it would do them (and all of us) much better if they could act like grownups and recognize that, yes, Great Bight did happen, so did Pixiedance, as well as a handful of other events, and the both of us move on.
 
By the way, IF they are goign to start lecturing us on respecting regional sovereignty, what are two Pacific Senators doing engaging in a discussion and telling us how to run our region on a thread in this regionl set up to discuss a trial taking place in this region?

Can someone with cabinet authority tell them to fuck off, before I get admin-happy on Darkesia and New Kervoskia.
 
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