the constitution is failing..

Good idea or not you all are bringing the cart before the horse.
First let's get a few amendments or a rough draft and then you can proceed to praise or blast the proposed changes at your leisure.
 
actually I freely admit, the PM being ead of gov makes little sense to me. Its an invented position. The delegate is, under game rules (we do play a game remember, its on Nationstates.net?), the head Of Gov. I dont see why we need 2 positions. With the strict elections we have now, more so than ever before, i dont see the problem with making the delegate more important.

Not all the ministries have been fully functioning this term, in fact due to a number of them leaving not many have.
Click to expand...

And why do you think so many have left? Come on really??
 
Durnia:
Just write another Constitution? Do you have any idea how long that might take?
Click to expand...

I wrote Taijitu's Constitution in roughly 3 days time, though it is nowhere near TNP's lengthwise. Though, to offer my opinion as an outside observer, that's probably the biggest problem I see with it: it's just too obscenely long, filled with all sorts of unnecessary details and redundencies.

As you were...
 
Fulhead, there is a fundamental disfference between TNP's experience with Delegates as head of governments, and other regions.

We've had lots of bad experiences before the current system was introduced. The Delegate is a ceremonial head of state, has all of the authority of the in-game delegate, but the government, headed by the Prime Minister is responsible for the rest.

I doubt you can ever convince many of us who were here for UPS Rail, Great Bight, Pixiedance, or any combination of them, to go back to a system that did not work here.

A lot of you also forget that much of the detail in the Constitution at the time of the Constitutional Convention has in fact gone over into the Legal Code, piece by piece, and it was always intended to be handled that way. Article III has been shortened a lot in that time. That's one reason why there is an amendment process, and the amendment process has been used to transfer provisions concerning Elections, Treaties and Agreements, and the Cabinet.

Just remember though that shorter isn't necessary better because it opens up all sorts of loopholes that cause far more problems that would not have arisen had it been left alone.
 
If a normal person cannot understand it then it can't really work. Period.

If it cannot be understood in one sitting, loopholes are likely to be created with each amendment.

When writing a program, programmers quickly learn that a very good tool to use is the idea of 'abstraction'. Instead of writing machine code for instance, programmers write in readable languages that are translated to machine code-- these languages allow programmers to build up a program in incremental bits which form a hierarchical whole. Each bit should always be very simple.

Grosseschnauzer, may I make a request of you that you read the Taijitu constitution and then tell me reasons why the TNP constitution is superior? (I know of a few reasons why the Taijitu Constitution is ill-suited for a feeder)
 
Eluvatar, Taijitu is a young founded region without an internal history to deal with.

TNP has a lengthy history, and the Constitution is not the problem of one person in one process, but a whole group of people in a series of revisions reflecting negotiations and compromises.

K-I-S-S- is a nice principle in theory, but in practice, not so much.
 
I think TWP's system is really the best but perhaps it's just because their forum administrator is such a ruddy genius.
 
Grosseschnauzer:
Just remember though that shorter isn't necessary better because it opens up all sorts of loopholes that cause far more problems that would not have arisen had it been left alone.
Click to expand...

The funny thing is, as our experience should surely point out if you look at it objectively, the longer something is, the more loopholes you actually get. This is made worse when it is too complicated for the vast majority to be able to understand.

Amending it one step at a time is just really papering over the cracks in the walls, and amendments often have unexpected consequences (generating more confusion and potential loopholes) because the whole darn thing is so flipping complicated.

The arguement always given against replacing the constitution (which is slowly suffocating the region and has been for some time) is that we will end up in some kind of dictatorship or something. Which, lets be honest, is pretty stupid. Look at TWP for example, and other democracies, and create a document which is shorter, simpler, and less (rather than more) open to abuse.

As can be evidenced from this discussion, we are also largely lacking in vision. The past informs the present true, and certainly we should not forget the past; but we should not allow ourselves to become enslaved to the past and blinded to the future. We must look forward and we must move forward. Change is the fundemental nature of the universe in all things, and eventually change will happen. I think our current system, in trying to restrict change, makes it more likely to happen in a form (i.e. delegate overthrow and dictatorship) which is bad rather than good (constitutional reform). When looking to the past we should also learn from the mistakes of the past, which those who do so have not done.
 
Maybe Cabinet fortpolios and the legal recourses of registration might need some fic up but the declaration of rights is sacrosacnt. Everything else is open game.
 
:agree:

I think its not just a constitution revamp we need (though it is necissary) we need a whole change in direction and attitude too. get out of this slup of arguements and bitching and actually do something
 
I cannot help but feel that the involvement of Jessica Simpson would do more to revitalise the region than any codex FL might come up with.

I vote let Jessica try.
 
We could invent our own!

TNP Acne Solution!

Slogans:

It will make your fulhead a free head!
No more grosse! (sorry grosse. had to use this)
Maybe the sniffles, but no acne!
Strikes it away like the Industria!
Better no acne than a dead frog!
Release the Blue Wolf inside you!
Saves you from sins: the Messiah. Saves you from acne: the Mesian.
Acne has just been punk d!
It's gaunt-a go away!
For the Dezz ahead!
Wow like TAO!
 
IIRC correctly, there were 3 choices on the table when we had 'finally' gotten to the point where we were 'finally' addressing the need for a 'new' constitution while Stars of Sky was delegate.

I had offered the 'Watery Document' - something that was based upon the KISS principle and something that had holes built in so that the 'new' make-up of TNP could organically modify it.

Gross' proposal won a plurality against mine (which came in second) and another proposal (which escapes me).

I detail all of this because I wrote the 'Watery Document' because many thought the revisioned Constitution was too voluminous, myself included. Yet, there were not many at the time putting forth completed founding documents.

I think it's a gross mischaracterization to fault Gross (pun intended) with the Constitution and/or its faults. I believe there 40+ votes in that election, far more than many votes that occur in many feeders today.

If the system is broke, there are ways to fix it. If anything, the Constitution is a natural and conservative response to the events that occured well over a year prior to its acceptance.

FL, you were there. I'm sure you remember the times. This was not the Gross' show with everyone saying, "Yes, sir." We all decided and went with it. The fact it has lasted this long says something about, not Gross' brilliance, but of the committment of the members of this body towards a democracy and upholding this one which for far too long was usurped and run by dictators.
 
Let me check. I've never believed in delegate-as figurehead. It can be found at the constitutional discussion board that Stars ran...I think it's on s9 but I can't recall the linkage.
 
To Punk D, those were the proposals over two years ago. The approaches may help but we need a re-working that will work for our current situations with our current active ministers.
 
mr_sniffles...I wasn't re-proposing this document.

At the time, I understood the mood of TNP and what current problems needed addressing. Since, I have not been an active member since losing to Flem in a delegate election in August of 2005, I have no idea what current problems face the constitution in its present form.

I merely posted because I wanted to reinforce the fact that the decision made two years ago was made by the collective people of TNP and there were two alternatives to Gross' submission.
 
Here is the original post of the document I proposed which had more support than I originally remembered. All the bolding and formatting is gone so it's a bit harder to read

The Watery Document:
Ladies and Gentlemen,
over the past few weeks we've seen as much infight (though slightly less flaming)
as we saw in the early days of the NPD in late January. How come? I believe that
we have many who have opinions and ideas, but we do not yet have the mechanisms to get those ideas/methods into motion. NPC v. NPD, Stars v. NPD, Stars v. NPC, etc. etc. etc. are all fighting for their vision of a 'democratic' TNP.

The constitution is too big, some say.
The Codex was too undemocratic, others say.
Stars' document has too many holes, still others say.


Blah, blah, and blah again.
Look, if we spent half as much time working together as we have spent working
against one another, this would be the greatest of all regions....but I digress.
The following is what I call the Watery Document. Watery because I am hoping that it is a watered-down version of all that we would like to see in this region. I
don't think our governing document need be the large document that is the
constitution nor be as undemocratic as the NPD Codex. I hope that the Assembly
(noted within) will have plenty to do if this document is approved by the masses.

...we may want to change the name....


The Watery Document of The North Pacific

PREAMBLE
Recognizing the instability of this region's past, it is with great respect,
honor, and courage that the ratifying nations of the North Pacific do hereby
embrace this Watery Document and codify it as the governing, guiding, and ruling
law of this great region.

Article 1 - Membership

a. There shall be two steps of membership; member nation and citizen
1. Member Nations
- Member Nations shall be considered as any and all residents within the
region whose national sovereignty shall not be infringed upon by any other member nation. By national sovereignty it is meant to mean, any action a nation would take that only affects that nation and no other such as, and not limited to,
issues, the right to enter/leave the UN, national flag or currency, and the like.
- Member nations shall be subject to and granted liberties by this Watery
Document where applicable usage of 'all nations' is found.
2. Citizens
- Citizens are member nations who choose to participate in the offsite
forum's government. All nations are encouraged to visit the off-site forum.
However, not all shall be required to become citizens in order to participate in
non-government activities.
- Member nations seeking citizenship must do all of the following:
a. Sign the Oath of Citizenship (as produced/regulated by the Secretary
of Immigration Affairs).
b. Post on the offsite forum at least 5 times within government threads
or have been a registered user of the forum for no less than seven days whichever comes first.
c. Post any interregional affiliations which may be subject to review
based on their nature. Witholding information is cause for Citizenship Review.
d. State why they would like to be a citizen and answer subsequent
inquiries made by the MoIA and his/her deputies for a period of no less than 3
days and no longer than 5 days.
- The MoIA shall determine citizenship eligibility based upon the above
procedures. Using guidelines produced by the Assembly, the MoIA shall administer
citizenship applications. Every and all nations shall have right of appeal for
their citizenship applications. The appellate process shall be the purview of the
Assembly and upheld by the Cabinet via up or down vote whenever changes are
announced.

Article II - The Assembly

a. Eligibility Minimums
1. Population of 100 million or more
2. Public Disclosure of UN Nation at the time of application. (Citizens may
apply to the Cabinet, for an exemption. The Cabinet shall set exemption criteria
and publicly post those rules.)
3. Forum activity for 14 days

b. Other Criteria
1. Each citizen must look at respective departments (outlined later) and post
which one they would like to join and why. Assemblymen will be able to question
the applicant at this time any question relating only to the department for which
they are applying. This is NOT the time to ask any intel, political persuasion, or
such questions.

c. Vote
1. After no less than 3 days and no more than 5 days, the President of the
Assembly shall set up a poll (lasting 72 hours from the time of posting) for the
acceptance of the applicant. An application is considered approved when 50% plus 1 of all votes within the current poll have approved the candidate. In ALL
applications there must be a quorum of no less than 65% of Assemblyman on record. Abstentions will not be allowed.

d. Assembly duties
1. The Assembly shall function as the Legislative branch of the North Pacific
Government, having jurisdiction and function to create changes to this document via 2/3rds majority vote, pass laws for the region, create Assembly bill passage procedures, as well as review procedures of departments as noted

e. Assembly Officers
1. The officers of the Assembly shall be the Speaker, President, and Secretary
of the Assembly
- Role of The Speaker
i. Every Ten Weeks, the Assembly shall appoint(elect) a Speaker who
shall function as a cabinet level position and serve as the voice of the Assembly
to all other cabinet members. The Speaker shall have the ability to bring one bill
per week to the floor regardless of procedures ratified by the assembly with
regards to the bill passage process. The Speaker shall also create the committee
structure and is in no way bound to the structure of the previous Speaker. The
Speaker shall have the ability to veto decisions made by the President, but will
not have the ability to usurp the power of the President in functionality. If the
Speaker Vetos the decision of the President more than once in a single Speaker's
term, a vote of no-confidence will be called for the President. If the President
succeeds, the Speaker will be removed vice versa if the President does not prevail
- Role of The President
i. Every Ten Weeks, and two weeks subequent to the Speaker appointment, the Assembly shall appoint (elect) a President who shall preside over the floor of the Assembly. The President shall have the authority to sit on any committee so desired and be an ex officio voting member. It shall also be the responsibility of the President to assign committe memberships/chairs to Assemblyman.
- Role of The Secretary
i. The Secretary shall be responsible for maintaining a list of all
Assemblyman, updating this document and any other law/procedure changed/created by the assembly, and maintaining a current list of assemblyman and their committees. The Secretary shall be appointed by the President and serve the same term as the President.
e. Termination
1. Persuant to Article V, Sub d any five Assemblyman may call for the immediate termination of duties of a fellow Assemblyman. The Speaker, or designee, shall act as prosecutor and the charged Assemblyman shall have the right to appoint counsel.
2. The trial shall proceed pursuant to Article V, Sub c-2 (Impeachment Procedures)
3. If the Assemblyman is found guilty, their membership shall be terminated immediately. Any outstanding legislation may be sponsored by remaining Assemblyman, but if any remain unsponsored after three (3) days they shall be considered dead.

Article III - The cabinet

a. Make-up
1. The cabinet shall consist of the following members (6)
- Speaker of the Assembly
- Secretary of Immigration Affairs
- Secretary of Internal Affairs (aka intelligence)
- Secretary of External Affairs (Delegate)
- Secretary of Culture and Arts
- Secretary of Defense
b. UnderSecretaries
1. Each Secretary shall have the discretion to create the role of "UnderSecretary" and delegate any responsibilities to this nation as necessary.
2. All UnderSecretary appointments must be approved by the cabinet via majority vote.

d. The Delegate shall be a member of the cabinet insofar as they are the de facto Secretary of External Affairs once duly elected by the North Pacific citizenry. Other Delegate functions shall be limited to the following:
1. Upkeep of the World Factbook Entry: The delegate shall maintain the entry and list the valid forum(s). Forum(s) may only be changed via Assembly vote.
2. Banning nations: The delegate shall only ban nations after a 60% majority vote in the assembly or by 2/3rds vote of at least 5 members of the Cabinet. Any bannings by the delegate not meeting this requirement shall make the delegate subject to immediate trial proceedings as spelled out by the Justice Department
3. Soliciting votes for UN Resolutions and voting, in a timely manner, based upon majority vote.
4. Welcoming new nations to the forum.
5. Maintaining adequate level of endorsements as to provide for the security of the region.

c. Cabinet Position Descriptions
1. Speaker of the Assembly
- Vice Head of State. In the event the Delegate becomes incapacitated, the
Speaker shall take up the duties of the delegate. The term incapacitated shall be
determined via judicial review and/or can be specifically detailed by the Assembly
2. Secretary of Immigration Affairs
- Jurisdiction over citizen applications. Procedures submitted by the Secretary
and ratified by Assembly.
3. Secretary of Internal Affairs
- Responsible for recruiting intelligence agents, gathering pertinent
information with respect to credible threats to the region and/or her allies, and
being an overall secret badman...or woman.
4. Secretary of External Affairs (Delegate)
- Responsible for maintaining a Diplomatic Corps, embassies, and consulate
at various regions. Responsible for creating and maintaining Ambassador Handbook for new ambassadors.
5. Secretary of Culture and Arts
- Responsible for keeping OOC areas fun, fun, fun!!
6. Secretary of Defense
- Coordinates and directs ALL military operations. Recruits as necessary.

Article IV - Elections

a. All Elections shall occur every three months with delegate elections occuring
two weeks prior to secretary elections (exception being the Speaker of the
Assembly). Delegate Candidates who have lost the Delegate Elections may run for
cabinet positions.
b. All citizens shall be eligible to vote.
c. An elections commission shall be appointed by the Delegate to create and
implement election procedures. The commission shall have 3 members (A commissioner and two deputies) whose function shall be to administer all elections.
d. At least 30% of all citizens must vote in order for election results to be
certified.

Article V - Trials

a. Justice Department
1. The Delegate shall appoint justices to serve on the Head Court. These
justices shall be confirmed by the Assembly and must carry a 60% plus one in order to be so confirmed.
2. Appointments are for six month periods commencing with the date of
confirmation. Nations may be reappointed a maximum of two additional terms.
3. Head Court
- The Head Court shall be considered the supreme interpretation body of the land. Seven members shall serve on this body and members shall appoint a Chief Justice if the position is vacant via quick vote.
- The Head Court shall preside over cases of upmost importance, but each
justice will preside over cases within the seven secretarial areas themselves and act
as first arbiter for cases therein. Example, if a citizen app believes that his
application was denied/revoked unWatery documentally (LOL) one justice shall hear his/her case and make a ruling.
- Citizens who still feel concern over such rulings may petition to bring
their case to the full court. The Court shall decide which cases to hear,
excepting a 2/3rds vote by the Assembly forcing the court to hear a case.
- The Chief Justice shall have the authority to preside over any case in
any department for any reason supplanting the justice assigned to that department. In
other cases, the Chief Justice shall be assigned to hearing cases falling within
the Delegate's jurisdiction. The Chief Justice will have no veto power in
determining which cases may be heard, but may force a case upon the full court for consideration without a vote.
- The Head Court shall create a sentencing structure for offenses which
shall be certified by both the Cabinet and Assembly via up/down vote.
b. Regular Trials
1. The Head Court shall spell out trial procedures but all trials need to be
fair (as in proof of guilt standards must be established), each side afforded
representation, and defendants are considered innocent until proven guilty.
2. All trials shall be publicly viewable by member nations, citizens, Assemblyman, Cabinet, and justices. Foreign dignitaries or regional residents shall not be able to view trials until a verdict has been rendered. None of the aforemention shall be permitted to speak during proceedings unless otherwise involved with the pending case.

c. Impeachment
1. Any citizen (excepting justices) may call for the impeachment of a citizen,
Assemblyman, Justice, or Cabinet member needing one of the following for the Head Court to commence proceedings:
- Petition signed by
i. No less than 10 citizens
ii. No less than 5 Assemblymen
iii. no less than 3 Cabinet members
iv. No less than 20 member nations
2. The Head Court shall create trial/conviction procedures in accordance to Article V, Sub b
which shall be ratified by the Assembly. These procedures shall have force of law
and subsequent changes must be certified by the Assembly with 2/3rds majority
vote, but unless revoke shall carry force of law until such time as the assembly
has had the time to vote on procedures.
d. Impeachable Offenses
Any Nation may be impeached from The North Pacific for the following violations:
1) Violating any of the NationStates rules as provided on the NationStates.net website or as determined by a NationStates Moderator.
2) Violations of The Watery Document.
3) Violating the Regional membership regulations as outlined in Article I, Section 2, Sub a of The Watery Document.
4) Violating any departmental procedural code that has been codified by the Assembly or other laws of the Region.
5) Violating the Rules and Regulations for Cabinet.

Article VI - Amendments

a. Whenever this document is changed, a notation shall be included within this
section noting only the date and section changed.

b. Amendments to this document shall occur via method explained within Article II, Sub d, 1.
Click to expand...
 
The vote when as follows

Tresville's Approach: 20 votes
Punk D's Approach: 16 votes
Grosse's Approach: 13 votes


But in essence, the original reformed constitution was largely penned by Grosse because, he was one of the very few who actually understood it. But it is quite ironic that although his 'approach' received the least amount of support, the document he was proposing is what we have today. Tresville's was similar and looking at the same document, just in a different manner.
 
What you wll find is that Tresville and I negotiated a compromise on the primary document. The base document to which the convention voted on changes was a blend of my proposal (which actually tried to move away from certain terminology and introduced the idea of a Declaration of Rights, a Court system and the Security Council) with Tres' desrie to base changes on the NPC revision of the Constitution.

Once the compromise was reached, then there was a majority in favor of one approach.

When I make a political agreement as part of a compromise, I keep my word; simple as that. And I will add this -- there have been admendments that have been passed that I did not agree with or support, but I have followed through with enforcing those.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top