Take 2... :)

Haor Chall

Haor Chall

The Power of the Dark Side
TNP Nation
Haor Chall
Suggested ammendment. Please discuss sensibly.


TNP Constitution @ Article III:
C - There is to be a North Pacific Intelligence Agency whose duties are to collect and analyse confidential intelligence information relating to matters of the security for the benefit of the Regional Government and the region as a whole. The Prime Minister shall appoint the leadership of the North Pacific Intelligence Agency after consultation with the personnel of that agency. Any matter concerning the Agency's activities and personnel, except in the case of a criminal prosecution, shall be discussed in confidence without reference in any public record; however, there must may  be disclosure of confidential information if it is to be used in connection with a criminal or impeachment proceedings. The Prime Minister shall chair a body, consisting of the Minister of Defence, the Chief Justice and two members of the Security Council who are not in the North Pacific Intelligence Agency. This body will be responsible to the Cabinet and the Regional Assembly for the ongoing oversight of the Agency.
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These are the sorts of changes I'm talking about.
 
however, there must be disclosure of confidential information if it is to be used in a criminal or impeachment proceedings
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Yes, I can see people tripping over themselves to disclose information to themselves knowing that, if it results in a trial, the information must be disclosed publically which would, more than likely, give at least a clue as to the identity of the informant. [/sarcasm]

No, no, nope. If this were law back in the day, Shoeless Joe would probably never have come forward with information about the lexicon vital to our security. I can also think of two other occasions when I received information where complete discretion was a condition of the information being handed over.

once we demand that information used by an intel service is disclosed openly, we might as well not have an intel service.
 
Haor Chall:
Suggested ammendment. Please discuss sensibly.
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No!


TNP Constitution @ Article III:
C - There is to be a North Pacific Intelligence Agency whose duties are to collect and analyse confidential intelligence information relating to matters of the security for the benefit of the Regional Government and the region as a whole.
<snip>
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Why change that line? I understand what you are getting at with other parts of this amendmenting (though I don't believe I'm yet prepared to speak on them), but I don't see the link between that -transparency- and this. It seems like only a cosmetic change, which may be well-intentioned (I guess?) but warps the stated mission (and therefore the character) of the NPIA.
 
Haor Chall:
The Prime Minister shall chair a body, consisting of the Minister of Defence, the Chief Justice and two members of the Security Council who are not in the North Pacific Intelligence Agency. This body will be responsible to the Cabinet and the Regional Assembly for the ongoing oversight of the Agency.
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But what if there are not two members on the SC who are not in the NPIA? What if the Minister of Defence and Chief Justice are in the NPIA as well? What if the Prime Minister is in the NPIA!?! What if all of the above are all NPIA!?!?!

OMFG! IT'S A CONSPIRACY! AEEEEEEIIIIIIII!
Violent_sterb035.gif
 
My suggestions in green:

TNP Constitution @ Article III:
C - There is to be a North Pacific Intelligence Agency whose duties are to collect and analyse confidential intelligence information relating to matters of the security for the benefit of the Regional Government and the region as a whole. The Prime Minister shall appoint the leadership of the North Pacific Intelligence Agency after consultation with the personnel of that agency. Any matter concerning the Agency's activities and personnel, except in the case of a criminal prosecution, shall be discussed in confidence without reference in any public record; however, there must may  be disclosure of confidential information if it is to be used in connection with a criminal or impeachment proceedings. The Prime Minister shall chair a body, consisting of the Minister of Defence, the Chief Justice and two members of the Security Council who are not in the North Pacific Intelligence Agency selected by Security Council vote. This body will be responsible to the Cabinet and the Regional Assembly for the ongoing oversight of the Agency. The Legal Code may provide for a code of ethics in the NPIA enforced by the aforementioned body.
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After all, we can't know who in the Security Council is NPIA :ADN: . The second suggestion is more malleable and I am unsure of.
 
Yes but if that happens then NPIA members might end up included in a committee overseeing themselves, which would not be acceptable or fair.
 
flemingovia:
Yes, I can see people tripping over themselves to disclose information to themselves knowing that, if it results in a trial, the information must be disclosed publically which would, more than likely, give at least a clue as to the identity of the informant. [/sarcasm]
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For you Flem it shouldn't be an issue, you don't normally bother with trials or following the constitution if it gets in the way.

Why change that line? I understand what you are getting at with other parts of this amendmenting (though I don't believe I'm yet prepared to speak on them), but I don't see the link between that -transparency- and this. It seems like only a cosmetic change, which may be well-intentioned (I guess?) but warps the stated mission (and therefore the character) of the NPIA.
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Because "benefit" is a very vague description and, based on the comments of others, the primary role of the NPIA is security, so it makes sense to formalise that as well. It is related.


But what if there are not two members on the SC who are not in the NPIA? What if the Minister of Defence and Chief Justice are in the NPIA as well? What if the Prime Minister is in the NPIA!?! What if all of the above are all NPIA!?!?!
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(@ EM and ZS as well)

If, as we have had in the past, the PM is in the NPIA it is impossible for them to carry out their oversight. Whilst it is still a possibilty with this body that all its members might be in the NPIA as well, it reduces the chances of that and spreads the responsability out from the one person, which will help in that respect.

Secondly, it is of course impossible to police whether NPIA members are within the SC as things stand, so you'd have to rely on them not putting themselves forward. So I wouldn't have a great issue with the ZS' suggestion as it would in many ways be a more practical change.

In many ways I'd prefer that it was the Cabinet as a whole but that wasn't liked when suggested before. IMHO just more communication from the NPIA would be better, it's a case of one hand not knowing what the other is doing... And the idea that somehow releasing any information poses such a massive threat is complete nonsense. Why can't I, as MoEA, at least be informed by the Director of the NPIA of some of the regions he considers to be a threat, for example? Secrecy is all very well and good, and necessary don't get me wrong, but taken to the extreme that it is here (bizarrely as we claim to be a democratic and "open" region) it actually ends up potentially being more damaging.
 
I agree with Haor Chall and actually I had in mind that NPIA members on the Security Council would voluntarily refrain from putting themselves forward. :bunny:

On the other hand, I am a bit intrigued as to why the Chief Justice is on this board, which should in theory be executive; perhaps the Minister of Justice or of External Affairs instead would be more appropriate?
 
I would like to keep the benefit in the first part, maybe security and benefit for the region can be combined?

The oversight body is a good idea, but I would prefer to keep out the Chief Justice. If you have the Chief Justice in this body it means mixing up duties.
 
For you Flem it shouldn't be an issue, you don't normally bother with trials or following the constitution if it gets in the way.
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mmm. Is this what you meant by "discussing sensibly"?

Perhaps you could address the issue rather than making a personal jibe.

My point is that in an intel organisation the knowledge that at some point disclosure may hamper seriously the operation of that organisation.

As far as I can see, that section of the proposal as it stands would effectively wrap up the NPIA.
 
flemingovia:
My point is that in an intel organisation the knowledge that at some point disclosure may hamper seriously the operation of that organisation.
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I believe it's called selective disclosure, governments use it all the time. Instead of "John Doe stole the top secret documents and thus exposed the spy within out very government" it's "Agent Monday procured several foreign documents that clearly exposed Joe Shmoe as a spy.

You don't need to give every detail just the base important stuff. That way our own members don't feel as if the NPIA is always hiding something from them.
 
I'm sorry. The legislation as it stands makes no mention of "selective disclosure". It simply says "there must be disclosure". Presumably, in the case of a trial, the defence would be pressing for a complete and full disclosure. I know I would.

On another note, I may be over sensitive, BW, but I seem to sense in your post the implication that there are those in TNP who do not trust members of the NPIA. I have sometimes suspected that the repeated attempts to regulate the NPIA stem from a lack of trust from some quarters.

If anyone does not trust members of the NPIA, perhaps they should say so, so that the discussion can be held in the open.
 
And as I read it, the only intel info that needs to be made public is that which is going to be used for a trial. Anything gathered outside of that remains confidential. And while this seems like common sense since the prosecution will need all of that information to get a guilty verdict anyway, it's comforting knowing that it is written down. Plus then the government can't just say, "We are uber-banning Putzball for actions unbecoming a member of TNP." A trial needs to be held in which the reason WHY this is taking place needs to come out and the intel which proves Putzball is just that, should then be made public.
 
A question, which I am attempting to phrase "sensibly"...

Why does the NPIA need external regulation?

As it currently stands, the NPIA is overseen by the Prime Minister. I can testify that Grosseschnauzer has done a very good job of this oversight during his term as PM. Why is this not enough?

The main problem with external oversight, especially oversight from a committee, is this: You get a bunch of people in one room who don't know what they're talking about telling people who do know what they're talking about what to do, because they apparently know better when they really don't. If you can follow that, then please explain to me why that's a good thing. The NPIA has functioned perfectly well over the past several years on it's own. We have an effective internal leadership structure, we report what needs reporting to the people who need reporting to, the region remains safe, and everyone turns out happy. Except, apparently, one person named Haor Chall.

The purpose of the NPIA is to seek out information for the benefit of the region. Not just for the region's security - while that is a very high priority, it is not the sole priority and should not be made as such. We have other organizations that handle the security end of things just fine. We don't need another one.

I agree completely with Flemingovia. These attempts at legislation are no more than attempts to cripple a fully functioning agency at best, or a disguised attempt to subvert our region's security at worst. The fact that this legislation has been suggested multiple times tells me, and the rest of the NPIA, that there are people who do not trust the Agency or its motives. The Agency is based firmly in trust. If the members of the Agency do not trust a potential recruit to be able to handle the rigors of the duty, they will not be allowed into the Agency regardless of how popular or powerful they may be. If you do not trust us and cannot openly tell us that you do not trust us and why, we have no reason to trust you in return.
 
Hersfold:
Why does the NPIA need external regulation?
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Because it's our ass on the line if it screws up. Because it’s the only department in The North Pacific government which no one but the Prime Minister seems to be able to watch over and regulate. Because of past actions which were unbecoming of the organization in the manner in which they handled both operations and information when it comes to trial. Because it's basically an organization unto itself at this point. Because there are no laws regulating its actions and therefore it is justified in doing just about everything short of treason. Because the worst thing that will ever happen to a NPIA agent for breaking a TNP law is expulsion from the NPIA where as regular members could be ejected from the region. Because if an NPIA agent breaks the law, it’s “classified”. Because everything the NPIA ever does is “classified” Because it has such an elitist feel.

I can go on, I have a list...


Hersfold:
As it currently stands, the NPIA is overseen by the Prime Minister. I can testify that Grosseschnauzer has done a very good job of this oversight during his term as PM. Why is this not enough?
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Is Grosses a member of the NPIA or is he not?

Hersfold:
We have an effective internal leadership structure, we report what needs reporting to the people who need reporting to, the region remains safe, and everyone turns out happy
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Right, how many reports have you actually issued to the people?

Can you count them on one hand?

Hersfold:
The purpose of the NPIA is to seek out information for the benefit of the region.
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On a personal note, what information did you hope to find when you sent a NPIA spy into my region? I don't care about what happened to the spy or whatever, I just want to know what in the hell you were looking for and whatever possessed you to do such a thing.

Hersfold:
These attempts at legislation are no more than attempts to cripple a fully functioning agency at best, or a disguised attempt to subvert our region's security at worst.
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Not at all, if it were the case then the document above would say the following:

C - There is to be a North Pacific Intelligence Agency whose duties are to collect and analyse confidential intelligence information relating to matters of the security for the benefit of the Regional Government and the region as a whole. The Prime Minister shall appoint the leadership of the North Pacific Intelligence Agency after consultation with the personnel of that agency. Any matter concerning the Agency's activities and personnel, except in the case of a criminal prosecution, shall be discussed in confidence without reference in any public record; however, there must may  be disclosure of confidential information if it is to be used in connection with a criminal or impeachment proceedings. The Prime Minister shall chair a body, consisting of the Minister of Defence, the Chief Justice and two members of the Security Council who are not in the North Pacific Intelligence Agency selected by Security Council vote. This body will be responsible to the Cabinet and the Regional Assembly for the ongoing oversight of the Agency. The Legal Code may provide for a code of ethics in the NPIA enforced by the aforementioned body.
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Hersfold:
If you do not trust us and cannot openly tell us that you do not trust us and why, we have no reason to trust you in return.
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Should we highlight our reasons next time?


/RANT!
 
For the record, I have not been and am not now a member of the NPIA.

As I understand it, you can't volunteer for the NPIA. Haven't seen a recruitment campaign for them, either.
 
Ok, I really didn't know, that's why I asked :P

Well, you can volunteer for the NPIA, you just may not make it in. As for recruitment, they may not campaign but there is an entire forum dedicated to them on this site and I remember seeing a post about PMing someone if you were interested somewhere around here...

Anyways, all this really wasn't relevant to this topic and I apologize in advance for this post :P
 
OOC:
Sorry I missed this thread. For future reference...I would suggest naming the thread properly "Replying to Take 2..." doesn't help in knowing what the thread refers to.


After reading the first thread on this matter, NPIA members can confirm (but better not), that I was very disturbed. I was mainly upset over the fact that people assumed that because I was no longer in the game that I couldn't be reached. I believe I have said many times that I can always be contacted in matters of importance....retired or not. My emails and Messenger screen names have not changed in 4 years.

I will be addressing many of the issues mentioned in the RA forum with a public post that will include:
- Complete history of the NPIA from its inception to its current state.
- Myths and legends of the agency.
- NPIA current rules and regulations.
- Complete breakdown of its structure.
- Discussion on legislation proposal.

At the moment, as director, I am organizing the agency and we will be voting on some of its internal procedures and rules.

This is taking sometime due to RL responsibilities and the current security problems that the region is having.

I would like to kindly request that this discussion be paused until I can provide in depth information about the agency. This will help further this discussion in a more fitting and informed manner. I will post the afore mentioned thread by Feb. 20 before 12am ET.

My schedule for the organization of the agency is as follows:
Feb. 16th and 17th - Final discussions on structure and other matters.
17th, 18th and 19th NPIA vote on the fruits of the discussion.

Please keep in mind that I have 5 pages of questions, misconceptions, ideas and arguments about the agency to look through and address. I have been away for close to 10 months and have to skim through everything that has occurred in order to have the knowledge to properly address all concerns. I have to endotart in order to become the 3rd or 4th highest endorsed nation in the region...for security purposes. I must organize the vote, send PM's out as reminders and still keep tabs on what is happening in other areas of the forum and region. This does not include any of my RL responsibilities or any emergencies that may come up within the region.

I thank you all for your patience. I am making it a point to answer all questions found in the NPIA threads as well as clearing up all gray areas. :o :yes: :clap:

- Tresville
 
I would write further, but I am beset with the most horrendous of hangovers and the mental strength needed to extricate the rediculousness of this situation from this Intertron would leave me an inert mass. I offer a slow, underhand lob to any citizen (preferrably Haor Chall) and I am intently eager to see said citizen (preferrably Haor Chall) knock it out of the fucking ballpark.
 
Well after the usual bash of ideas, it seems what could really move this forward is a respect for "privilege." It's already defined in the Court Rules as secret information learned from having a special position and is decided whether it can or cannot be identified by the Judge in the case.
 
Oh I am ever so glad that someone came up with the intelligent idea to actually give "privilege" along with power! As if willingly giving away our authority to elected officials wasn’t already enough, let’s give them a special side bonus just to make sure they are totally happy. After all, I hear it’s ever so hard to operate a government with the hopes and aspirations of the people constantly on your back.
 
That wasn't the point, it's about disclosure of information that might unduely harm the region. By having a judge to check and balance what information may be released on the stand.

But if this is just rag on people for being elected to power then by all means, keep going. Really makes you wonder why we had such a low turnout rate for nominations...
 
Hmm, as I seem to remember I ran in those elections. I am not railing on people who get elected; I am however saying that you really can not deny the disclosure of information when it comes to trials. If it's real secretive then don't have a trial at all.

What's up with this? Why the hell is it all or nothing in this region?! People just want a small compromise and not to disband the NPIA. Mr Sniffles you're being paranoid.
 
Because it's our ass on the line if it screws up.
Because it’s the only department in The North Pacific government which no one but the Prime Minister seems to be able to watch over and regulate.
Because of past actions which were unbecoming of the organization in the manner in which they handled both operations and information when it comes to trial.
Because it's basically an organization unto itself at this point.
Because there are no laws regulating its actions and therefore it is justified in doing just about everything short of treason.
Because the worst thing that will ever happen to a NPIA agent for breaking a TNP law is expulsion from the NPIA where as regular members could be ejected from the region.
Because if an NPIA agent breaks the law, it’s “classified”.
Because everything the NPIA ever does is “classified”
Because it has such an elitist feel.

I can go on, I have a list...
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Well, someone's got a bit of a chip on their shoulder.
  • If we "screw up", yes, the region will undoubtedly take some bad PR from it. That is the risk of having an intelligence agency. That's why we try very hard not to screw up and do our job right. That's why we have high, strict standards about membership. So we get people who don't screw up.
  • As I've said, it's a hell of a lot better having only one person who hopefully is intelligent enough to know when they don't know what they're talking about than a whole bunch of them who collectively think they do leading an organization like this. Then, to relate back to the first point, if we do "screw up" it's mainly on the PM's shoulders (sorry, Gross) instead of the whole Regional Assembly or whatever your genius plan is.
  • We have had some cases in the past where things weren't handled as they should have been. I will admit that. However, I cannot think of any circumstance in which we withheld information as you seem to be implying. Care to give an example rather than throw accusations around?
  • "An organization unto itself". What the hell does that mean? Of course we are - so is the NPA, so is the Diplomatic Corps, and I don't see anyone trying to shut them down. NPA answers to one person - the MoD. DC answers to one person - MoEA. Both of them are just as capable, if not more so, of creating wonderful little PR mishaps as the NPIA is. So very good at stating the obvious. The NPIA is an organization, everyone.
  • If there were laws regulating what we could do, there would be a lot less we could do. But I suppose that's the point of this legislation, to shut down that which protects our region. The NPIA is working for the benefit of the region. If there is a threat against the region, we may have to appear to join up with the enemy in order to relay information back to us. Oops! RA Oath violation, we're all under arrest. Forget that we're still working for TNP, we all get booted out of the region and now the enemy's even more pissed off at us because we blew our own agent's cover. Brilliant idea!
  • That is libel. And if you would like to keep making statements such as that, we can talk to the Chief Justice about it. I hear they're much faster with civil complaints than they are with actual trials. There is nothing to support your claim that an NPIA officer would be treated differently than anyone else in this region were they acting against us. If it was determined that one of our number were in fact a traitor, they would be out of the NPIA and region faster than they could sneeze.
  • Duh. See two bullets up.
  • Duh. We're an intelligence agency, genius.
  • Duh. See the first bullet - we have to pick the best, or else we're all screwed. That's not elitist at all....

Go on, by all means. I can probably give a perfectly good reason for every complaint you seem to have about the NPIA. $100 TNP bucks for everyone you don't make up out of thin air.

Is Grosses a member of the NPIA or is he not?
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Normally I'd say this question couldn't be answered, for what should be obvious reasons, but since he's already said it, no, he is not and has never been in the NPIA.

Right, how many reports have you actually issued to the people?

Can you count them on one hand?
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More than you apparently think. Perhaps you haven't seen any because you're not one of the people who needs reporting to. DMoCE isn't exactly a high ranking office, and I speak from experience. If you ever get elected Prime Minister, then we'll see if you have any right to complain about that particular topic.

On a personal note, what information did you hope to find when you sent a NPIA spy into my region? I don't care about what happened to the spy or whatever, I just want to know what in the hell you were looking for and whatever possessed you to do such a thing.
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Oh, bringing this up again, are we? Well, let's see. The NPA is a defender force, is it not? Ok. Lone Wolves United is an invader group, is it not? Ok. It would make a defender's job much easier if he knew ahead of time where his adversaries were going to strike, would it not?

If you can't figure it out from there, I see no further point in continuing this conversation.

Not at all, if it were the case then the document above would say the following:

C - There is to be a North Pacific Intelligence Agency whose duties are to collect and analyse confidential intelligence information relating to matters of the security for the benefit of the Regional Government and the region as a whole. The Prime Minister shall appoint the leadership of the North Pacific Intelligence Agency after consultation with the personnel of that agency. Any matter concerning the Agency's activities and personnel, except in the case of a criminal prosecution, shall be discussed in confidence without reference in any public record; however, there must may  be disclosure of confidential information if it is to be used in connection with a criminal or impeachment proceedings. The Prime Minister shall chair a body, consisting of the Minister of Defence, the Chief Justice and two members of the Security Council who are not in the North Pacific Intelligence Agency selected by Security Council vote. This body will be responsible to the Cabinet and the Regional Assembly for the ongoing oversight of the Agency. The Legal Code may provide for a code of ethics in the NPIA enforced by the aforementioned body.
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No, instead you disguise it and give false reasons why the NPIA is a bunch of mindless thugs bent on evil. Or whatever story you lot are coming up with this time.

Should we highlight our reasons next time?
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Maybe you should make them make sense instead.
 
So much to rebut and defend, I don't think I will be able to get to it all...

As I've said, it's a hell of a lot better having only one person who hopefully is intelligent enough to know when they don't know what they're talking about than a whole bunch of them who collectively think they do leading an organization like this. Then, to relate back to the first point, if we do "screw up" it's mainly on the PM's shoulders (sorry, Gross) instead of the whole Regional Assembly or whatever your genius plan is.
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Ok, first off, this is not my idea, its HC's, your actually making me the object of your rage when I have not put forth any ideas at all. Second off, I really don't see the problem in letting a few other people who are trusted by the people in on your little secret society, unless, of course, you're trying to hide something, which, for your sake, I hope your not.

However, I cannot think of any circumstance in which we withheld information as you seem to be implying. Care to give an example rather than throw accusations around?
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Well, ya did withhold all information pertaining to the Limitless Event's affair for several days until public pressure forced it out.

NPA answers to one person - the MoD. DC answers to one person - MoEA. Both of them are just as capable, if not more so, of creating wonderful little PR mishaps as the NPIA is. So very good at stating the obvious. The NPIA is an organization, everyone.
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Yes, but there is a difference between the NPIA and the rest. NPA doesn't hide all of it's actives, nor does the D.C. We know what they are doing and we know we can trust them to do their job. On the other hand just about nothing is known about the NPIA, and I mean nothing, not even things that should be public knowledge.

If there were laws regulating what we could do, there would be a lot less we could do. But I suppose that's the point of this legislation, to shut down that which protects our region. The NPIA is working for the benefit of the region. If there is a threat against the region, we may have to appear to join up with the enemy in order to relay information back to us. Oops! RA Oath violation, we're all under arrest. Forget that we're still working for TNP, we all get booted out of the region and now the enemy's even more pissed off at us because we blew our own agent's cover. Brilliant idea!
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HA! Did you really just say that? Did you really just say that all NPIA agents are immune to the laws by which all citizens are legally obliged to follow? Please, please tell me that’s not what you just said.

That is libel. And if you would like to keep making statements such as that, we can talk to the Chief Justice about it.
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Bring it to trial, I'll bring the rope, I don't care, I believe I have a right to say it and, by god, I will say it.

Duh. See two bullets up.

Duh. We're an intelligence agency, genius
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Hersfold, do you think that the NPIA should be able to do anything they want without fear of consequences? That seems to be what you're implying...

No, instead you disguise it and give false reasons why the NPIA is a bunch of mindless thugs bent on evil. Or whatever story you lot are coming up with this time.
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Again, not my proposal, your being paranoid again.

More than you apparently think. Perhaps you haven't seen any because you're not one of the people who needs reporting to. DMoCE isn't exactly a high ranking office, and I speak from experience. If you ever get elected Prime Minister, then we'll see if you have any right to complain about that particular topic.
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First, you dodged the question. Second, I said "the people" not "the Prime Minister". I restate my question and this time I expect a response and not an excuse and a pitiful personal attack.

Ok. Lone Wolves United is an invader group, is it not? Ok. It would make a defender's job much easier if he knew ahead of time where his adversaries were going to strike, would it not?
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That's so important to regional security...

Let me rephrase my question so as to not confuse you. Why did you choose to order a spy operation specifically on LWU and not a different raider region like Invaders, DEN, Children of the Grave, or the Black Hawks? Did you have a reason or was it just at random? Also, have you ordered any spy operations on raider regions since then?


Hersfold, relax. I feel as if you're about to just out of your skull over all this. Just justify the NPIA's very existence and give 10 good reasons why the NPIA does not need to be watched over. You're going about it all wrong by attacking people out right; it makes you look like your hiding something.
 
Haor Chall:
C - There is to be a North Pacific Intelligence Agency whose duties are to collect and analyse confidential intelligence information relating to matters of the security for the benefit of the Regional Government and the region as a whole.
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I don't see much point in that change. Security is mainly the provence of the Security Council, the NPIA is involved in things outside that sometimes, not necessarily related to security, but possibilities. If it couldn't absolutely be connected to security, but could benefit the region, does that mean the NPIA shouldn't look into it?

Haor Chall:
The Prime Minister shall appoint the leadership of the North Pacific Intelligence Agency after consultation with the personnel of that agency. Any matter concerning the Agency's activities and personnel, except in the case of a criminal prosecution, shall be discussed in confidence without reference in any public record; however, there must may  be disclosure of confidential information if it is to be used in connection with a criminal or impeachment proceedings.
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I have much less of a problem with this, in the sense of disclosure solely to parties concerned with the case, such as defendants, lawyers, and judges. Wide dispersal would be much more of a problem in my mind. And definitely, names of informants would need to be guarenteed safe.

Haor Chall:
The Prime Minister shall chair a body, consisting of the Minister of Defence, the Chief Justice and two members of the Security Council who are not in the North Pacific Intelligence Agency. This body will be responsible to the Cabinet and the Regional Assembly for the ongoing oversight of the Agency.
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To this one, I give a big no.
MoD doesn't necessarily need to be involved in all NPIA operations/discussions, and NPIA isn't all about the NPA, otherwise I imagine it'd be the NPAI.
CJ has *very* little to do with the intelligence matters, only in court cases could I see such a thing being sensible.
SC, plus not being in the NPIA... I'm not quite sure *why*. NPIA informs the SC of anything that could be a security risk, sometimes before they notice, sometimes not.

Basically, is the point that we can't trust our PM to provide adequate oversight? We elect our highest official but think they can't be trusted to evaluate what's in the best interests of TNP and what would be harmful to our image and region?
 
Thanks for making my job harder people.

Op...if your looking for someone to knock anything out of the park....eh....nevermind...i expected as much.

Patience people please. You have been asking for answers....I'd like to give them to you. :eyebrow:
 
In re to FEC's comment about MoD involvement with the NPIA -

Technically speaking, the MoD shouldn't overlap with the duties of the NPIA for any one of a number of obvious reasons. Should the NPIA have intel that is of military use (applicable to matters of defense involving the NPA, that is) then obviously the information should be shared. Likewise, any intel that the NPA comes across that might be of interest to the NPIA should also be shared between agencies/ministries.

Strictly speaking, I am of the opinion that as far as oversight of the NPIA, that oversight should be strictly the Prime Minister's dominion. Intelligence agencies need to be afforded a large degree of automony due to the nature of the techniques involved. Of course, intel activites should be by neccessity regulated in a practical sense by a code of ethics and a logical policy of intel evaluation. Transparency is not conducive to good intelligence work unless certain information must be made public as a matter in prosecutions.

Also, should intel information need to be scrutinized as to its veracity, the methods of collection and evaluation, those (possibly the SC functioning as an intel committee of the RA) reviewing it should be held to the strictest confidence as to the intel gathering techniques that would be exposed by such a process.
 
Former English Colony:
Haor Chall:
C - There is to be a North Pacific Intelligence Agency whose duties are to collect and analyse confidential intelligence information relating to matters of the security for the benefit of the Regional Government and the region as a whole.
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I don't see much point in that change. Security is mainly the provence of the Security Council, the NPIA is involved in things outside that sometimes, not necessarily related to security, but possibilities. If it couldn't absolutely be connected to security, but could benefit the region, does that mean the NPIA shouldn't look into it?
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Please explain, while I might agree with you the tone here has been whether a governmental organization acting outside of its power is good for the democratic whole of the region? Where do we benefit from the NPIA acting outside of its security mandate, if at all.
 
As promised, we are on schedule. The NPIA is currently voting on our Rules and Regs.

I will be posting the following come wednesday night:
- Complete history of the NPIA from its inception to its current state.
- Myths and legends of the agency.
- NPIA current rules and regulations.
- Complete breakdown of its structure.
- Discussion on legislation proposal.

If possible....I would like to post this on a seperate thread. The topic of the current conversation doesn't really tell u what the discussion is about.

I'd like to thank those that were patient...the rest eh.... :headbang:
 
Tres, my thought would be that except for any legislative proposal for the RA, the remainder should be posted either in the main RA forum, or in the main Cabinet forum. (Difference is that only RA members can post in any of the RA forums, and others can post in the main Cabinet forum. Another option, if you feel its relevant is in the main SC forum (same access as in the main Cabinet forum.) The actual legislative proposals should go in this forum, but it does sound like it can properly be in a new thread.
 
OPArsenal:
I would write further, but I am beset with the most horrendous of hangovers and the mental strength needed to extricate the rediculousness of this situation from this Intertron would leave me an inert mass. I offer a slow, underhand lob to any citizen (preferrably Haor Chall) and I am intently eager to see said citizen (preferrably Haor Chall) knock it out of the fucking ballpark.
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Well I'll see what I can do... :P
 
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