Giving the Delegate the Vote

Emperor Matthuis

Emperor Matthuis

TNPer
For a long time I have seen no reason why our elected should not have the right to vote in the Cabinet. Therefore I have come up with this.

Section 2. Elected Offices of the Regional Government.

The following offices shall comprise the Cabinet of The North Pacific Regional Government. Except for the UN Delegate for the Region, The Prime Minister, the UN Delegate and each Cabinet minister shall have a vote on any Cabinet action. The UN Delegate for the Region, the UN Vice Delegate, each Cabinet-level position, and all other positions established in the Regional Government, has the responsibility to uphold and enforce this Constitution, and to implement and comply with the actions taken by the Regional Government pursuant to this Constitution or The North Pacific Legal Code. Each Cabinet-level position shall have the duties and responsibilities as listed in this Section or as provided elsewhere in this Constitution or in The North Pacific Legal Code. Each Cabinet-level position shall have such authority as is necessary and proper to exercise the powers granted to, or to execute the duties imposed upon, that position under this Constitution, or by The North Pacific Legal Code, or by the other laws enacted pursuant to this Constitution, and subject to such limitations on those powers and duties established under this Constitution.
1) UN Delegate for the Region and Vice Delegate.
A - The UN Delegate for The North Pacific and the UN Vice Delegate shall be elected through the process described in Section 1 of this Article and the North Pacific Legal Code. The Delegate shall be considered as the ceremonial head of state, but not as head of government, for The North Pacific. The Vice-Delegate shall be considered as the deputy for the Delegate, and who may, where circumstances warrant, act as the Delegate.
B - The UN Delegate for the Region shall maintain the Delegacy in accordance with this Constitution. The UN Delegate for the Region shall securely hand over the Delegacy to the Nation that is duly elected as the successor to the office of UN Delegate in accordance with the provisions of this Constitution. The Delegate's primary role shall be to represent the interests of The North Pacific's UN member Nations through votes on UN resolutions at quorum; it shall be understood that this objective can be best achieved through open and regular communication with member Nations at The North Pacific off-site forum, via private message at that forum, or by telegram through NationStates.net. The Delegate shall have authority to approve proposals submitted by UN member Nations for consideration in the UN at the discretion of the Delegate.
C - The UN Delegate for the Region shall vote on UN resolutions in accordance with the majority of UN member Nations in the Region as determined by a canvass of votes cast concerning each specific UN resolution on the floors of the UN on the Regional off-site forum, or through the other specified means of communication. The Delegate shall be required to post the names of all UN member Nations and their votes the Delegate has received or noted as to each resolution at vote on the floor of the UN. Each such canvass shall be posted on the Regional off-site forum in an appropriate thread, so that the votes of each UN member Nation may be confirmed and verified by the UN member Nations of the Region. The Delegate shall maintain and modify the World Factbook Entry on the Region's homepage at NationStates.net from time to time in accordance with the wishes of the Regional Government.
D- In certain specified circumstances,the UN Delegate for the Region may vote to break a tie between candidates included in a runoff election for the UN Vice Delegate, the Office of Prime Minister and for the Offices of the other Ministers of the Cabinet.The Delegate shall have no vote in meetings of the Cabinet, however, the Delegate is authorized to participate in Cabinet discussions and to attend such meetings.
D - The UN Delegate and Vice Delegate for the Region shall have no authority to act in any other manner with respect to the Regional Government, unless such authority is expressly granted to the Delegate or Vice Delegate through process of Amendment of this Constitution, and not by implication. The North Pacific Legal Code may not alter the powers or authority of the office of Delegate or Vice Delegate.
E - At all times during the term of office, the Vice Delegate shall have the second greatest number of endorsements in the Region which shall be exceeded only by the number of endorsements held by the Delegate. The Vice Delegate may be authorized, by a vote of the Security Council on grounds of regional security, to temporarily assume the Delegacy under NationStates procedures whenever the Delegate may be unable to act or is not recognized within NationStates as the UN Member with the greatest number of endorsements within the Region or for other similar reasons of regional security. Upon the subsequent formal posted declaration of the Delegate that he or she is able to again act as Delegate of the Region within NationStates, the Delegate and Vice Delegate shall take any necessary action to cause the transfer of the Delegacy back to the elected Delegate.
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Your thoughts?
 
To my shame, i always thought that the delegate DID have the vote!
:blush:

I can see no reason why this should not be the case.
 
Emperor Matthuis:
Monumental Proportions:
I give this the good ol' thumb up, but what about adding the Vice Del in there?
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I would like to give them the vote as well since it is the only other fully elected position with no vote, but I thought that me suggesting it would sound...well improper. But I am more than willing to add it in.
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I would say that it makes sense to put it in. Plus, since it's coming from someone else it doesn't make you seem any different.
 
The VD shouldn't get a vote, they may be elected but the VD is essentially a 'deputy' position so I don't believe they should have a vote. As for the Delegate, I'm not that concerned either way, I wouldn't have a problem with it anyway.
 
Haor Chall:
The VD shouldn't get a vote, they may be elected but the VD is essentially a 'deputy' position so I don't believe they should have a vote. As for the Delegate, I'm not that concerned either way, I wouldn't have a problem with it anyway.
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Ah. Yes, I did not realize that before.
 
The Delegate is specifically described in the Constitution as te ceremonial head of state of the region, and the Primie Minister as the head of government.

The Delegate's role is to handle the aspects of the region related to Nationstates, and the Cabinet is to handle the executive functions of government.

Giving the Delegate a vote in the Cabinet (except to break a tie vote in a runoff election) undercuts the authority of the Prime Minister as head of government; you might as well abolish the government and go back to a system that all but destroyed this region twice in the last three years.

I strongly oppose giving a Cabinet vote to the Delegate or Vice Delegate. They have the right of participation in Cabinet meetings, because there s an overlap through Nationstates between the Delegate's role and the government's role, and because there will be issues that require co-ordination between the Delegate or Vice Delegate and the remainder of the government.

In short it is a separateion of powers issue, and it is a check and balance against the type of abuse of power when too much power is placed in the Delegate's office.

Besides which there is nothing to show that there is a need to give the Delegate a vote in the Cabinet. From the time the office of Prime Minister was created, nothing has happened that point to a need to change that element of separation of power.
 
A single vote isn't going to let a Delegate go rogue. They can still act as a ceremonial head of state - this proposal isn't removing that authority from the Prime Minister. It simply gives them a tad more authority than our paranoid society has seen fit to give them in the past.
 
And I believe firmly in maintaining a separation of powers. I don't agree that it doesn't weaken the Prime Minister, it does because you are giving the nead of state equal power in the Cabinet to the supposed head of government.

And I predict that after the Delegate is given a Cabinet vote, the next thing the same forces will want is to replace the Prime Minister with the Delegate as head of Government, and along with the efforts to abolish most of the ministries, it'll be indistinguishable from the excessive concentration of power that the NPD/NPG attempted.

Tearing down the separation of authority is a bad, bad idea.
 
:agree: The Delegate doesn't need to have a Cabinet vote. I think an RA vote, control of a huge block of UN votes, and the big bad ban button is enough power for one nation.
 
the next thing the same forces will want is to replace the Prime Minister with the Delegate as head of Government, and along with the efforts to abolish most of the ministries, it'll be indistinguishable from the excessive concentration of power that the NPD/NPG attempted.
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Urr...is this aimed at me?

I think the Delegate deserves a vote in the Cabinet for all the work that the position requires, it takes a lot of time and effort to get elected and stay there and in my view it warrants a simple vote in the Cabinet.

One vote will not make the difference to a rogue Delegate and the Delegate can still easily remain as Ceremonial Head of The North Pacific.
 
It's not a question of one vote, it's a question of precedent. I have no illusions that this would result in a new NPD next weekend, but each erosion of the separation of powers pushes us that much closer to the oligarchy we experienced during those bitter days.

Also, why would we need to reward the delegate for the hard work of doing the job they volunteered to do? Not to say it isn't a hard job, but that was no surprise when they signed up.
 
I didn't say that it should be a reward, I said that the job should deserve a vote in the Cabinet. Also anybody who believes that this is one little step to a Dictatorship couldn't be further from the truth.
 
it'll be indistinguishable from the excessive concentration of power that the NPD/NPG attempted.
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Interesting historical side note, to correct the PM: The NPG, under its first guise as regional government under the IP delegacy actually offered a peaceful world, with the NPC (opposition) becoming an "opposition government, or party and later being allowed to participate in free elections. This was rejected by the heads of the NPC.


On the topic, I dont see why we shouldnt give the delegate the cabinet vote. Lets face it, one vote isnt going to be enough to ablosih the constitution now is it?
 
Yes, it is. It's called doing things piecemeal, and hoping no one can connect the dots as each piece gets put into place to see what is going on.
 
So your saying you dont trust yourself and your cabinet collegues to have the wherewithall to notice if the power of the constitution were being eroded by a delegate with the delegates potential one vote?
 
Hmm, I could, if I stretched and took it out of context (it's like a game! "Accusation!", like Operation but not), but, yea, I'm going to have to go ahead and say that no, there is not any real accusation.

Of course, I didn't really read the thread, but, meh, does that really matter?
 
In aggreance with Gross, giving the delegate (a ceremonial head of state) a vote in the cabinet is essentially the same as granting an additional prorogative power to those powers which already exist in the nature of the function of the Delegate.

Giving the Delegate a cabinet vote would be tantamount to having the Queen of England preside and sit in Parliament and the cabinet Cabinet, and thus essentially change the role of the Delegate to something more than a ceremonial head.

In the same fashion but approaching it from the other direction, the Delegate, like a constitutional monarch, is an instrument of the people above politics and not a proactive governmental element.

Making the Delegate a voting member of the Cabinet (instead of just an advisory role in the cabinet) would shove that position towards the 'imperial'.
 
I've said it numerous times and I guess I have to say it again as the same old people trot out the same old alarmist bullshit yet again!!

The Delegate having a vote or not having a vote has no effect on whether another "rogue Delegate" occurs!! None at all!! Saying this is the case is utter crap!!

If a Delegate wants to go rogue, they can go rogue right now and no wall of text called a Constitution or RP handwringing in the Cabinet or Regional Assembly will stop that!!

I couldn't care less whether the Delegate gets a vote or not!! It matters little in the scheme of things!! But seriously, lose the whole NPD boogeyman routine everytime someone wants to amend the Constitution!! Yes, I'm talking to you Mr. Prime Minister!!

If you need any evidence to back up my claims, give me the password to the Delegate nation for 10 minutes and I'll demonstrate!!
 
Grosseschnauzer:
Giving the Delegate a vote in the Cabinet (except to break a tie vote in a runoff election) undercuts the authority of the Prime Minister as head of government; you might as well abolish the government and go back to a system that all but destroyed this region twice in the last three years.
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This is an alarmist non-sequitor, and has no bearing on the current discussion. The Prime Minister is given broad authority to act as head of government, and having the Delegate as one vote among many in the Cabinet does not change that one iota.

Schnauzer:
And I predict that after the Delegate is given a Cabinet vote, the next thing the same forces will want is to replace the Prime Minister with the Delegate as head of Government, and along with the efforts to abolish most of the ministries, it'll be indistinguishable from the excessive concentration of power that the NPD/NPG attempted.
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This is another alarmist non-sequitor. I would oppose replacing the PM with the Delegate as Head of Government, but I wouldn't be as obtuse to compare giving the Delegate an offical vote in the Cabinet to establishing a Dictatorship.

I don't think that the Delegate really needs an official vote in the Cabinet, since anyone who has the level of trust to be elected Delegate will have a substantial amount of unofficial say in the governance of the region. In that respect I believe that the Delegate is absolutely a proactive political element, should they take the time to be so.
 
Roman presented the argument in a different way than I did, but i suspect it probably the best framework for it.

If a Delegate thinks it that important to have a vote in the Cabinet, then let them run for one of the voting Cabinet posts.

The role of the Delegate is to handle the Nantionstates functions related to the UN for the Region, which is apart and separate from the the role of the government offices. Since the Delegate is ceremonial head of state, they should not have a formal vote in the Cabinet which would blur their ceremonial role with the functional role of the Prime Minister as head of government and who has a vote. The role of the Delegate is extremely limited with respect to the government; it is necessarily so in order to preserve long-term stability which is easier to maintain with a head of government separated from the head of state.

I;ve yet to see one good argument why the ceremonial head of state, and is the symbolic representaitive of the region, should then have a formal role in the government. It will cause destabilixation. If other proposals some have made were to be added to it, it would bring it back to the instability that existed in the original constitution that gave rise to the Pixiedance era.

It's a bad idea that weakens the careful balance of authority given the Delegate separate and apart from the Cabinet and government. The system as it is has worked, had not malfunctioned, and does not need to be fixed.

It has to say something that the sitting Delegate, the sitting Prime Minister, and the sitting Chief Justice have all described it as a bad idea.
 
Grosseschnauzer:
Roman presented the argument in a different way than I did, but i suspect it probably the best framework for it.
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Yes. He didn't resort to strawmen to get the point across, although, as such he presented a far more compelling argument against the Del getting a vote. Ultimately, I don't think it is neither here nor there, so I see no point in changing it from the way things are now.
 
strawman.jpg


Oh noes, not the strawman!!
 
I really didn't expect this issue to be so contentious.

However.

I've yet to see one good argument why the ceremonial head of state, and is the symbolic representaitive of the region, should then have a formal role in the government. It will cause destabilixation. If other proposals some have made were to be added to it, it would bring it back to the instability that existed in the original constitution that gave rise to the Pixiedance era.
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We need to move on from the paranoia of the Pixiedance era, the Influence system means that it would be virtually impossibe for any Delegate to go rogue and stay there because of a number of trusted Pacificans influence rankings.

The Delegate's position and status deserves a vote in the Cabinet and I have yet to see a good reason why they shouldn't have one.

It has to say something that the sitting Delegate, the sitting Prime Minister, and the sitting Chief Justice have all described it as a bad idea.
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Hmm. It also has to be said that three former Prime Ministers and one of those who served as a Delegate as well as a few Cabinet Ministers have not opposed or are for the idea.
 
I have to agree with both Polts and Unter. And with the point EM made:

We need to move on from the paranoia of the Pixiedance era, the Influence system means that it would be virtually impossibe for any Delegate to go rogue and stay there because of a number of trusted Pacificans influence rankings.
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Mr Prime Minister, in one of your ramblings you said

It will cause destabilixation. If other proposals some have made were to be added to it, it would bring it back to the instability that existed in the original constitution that gave rise to the Pixiedance era.
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I still fail to see your point here. One vote will not cause destablaisation unless it is supported by the other 5 or more voting positions in the cabinet. And lets face it, the cabinet could vote to do some "destabilixation" now should they so chose to. So why are you making the delegate out to be such a bad influence?

Okay, the delegate has the power to go rouge. But again I refer you to Polts' point. The Delegate can go rouge anyway.

This amendment will not cause destabalisation. If there was going to be destabalisation due to the delegacy, its well within the delegates real ingame powers to do it already.


As for good reasons why the delegate should be entitled to the vote, heres one for you.
Despite what the constitution says, game mechanics make the delegate THE most powerful person in the region.
Thanks to what the constitution says, the delegate must go through a tough battle to become delegate anyway.
The Delegate elect ten has to work hard to gain the endorsments needed.

The power given to the delegate by the game is reason enough for (currently) her views to be considered with the vote. But the safeguards built into the constitutuion to ensure she is trustworthy menas that it is almost risk free.
She deserves it
 
I have to say this. Being delegate never restrained me from firmly arguing my point to the cabinet members. Whether I had a vote or not wasn't that important to me. I don't feel as delegate you "deserve" anything. You've already got a huge amount of power and you know it. You are often the first person to contact nations and hear their viewpoints. As a protector of the region, I kinda feel like that should be your sole duty.

For the people discussing eroding of the powers, I'll just note they got eroded a bit when deputies were allowed in on Ministerial discussions. Given the specific provision that the Delegate would be allowed to discuss things, I doubt deputies were also put in there. ;)
 
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