Ideas on Executive

I was going to put this in the current discussion on the MoC/MoCE merger, but decided it would be a little too off-topic, so, here we go.

What I would really like to see is....probably not going to happen. But, since I'm in a sharing mood: Cut the Executive down to something like the Prime Minister, Minister of External Affairs, Minister of Internal Affairs, Delegate (and Vice Delegate, but that would be a deputy position, essentially, just elected separately), an appointed (by PM) and nonvoting Director of the NPIA, and possibly a Minister of Military Affairs. Give the Prime Minister power over the individual ministries (with the rest of the cabinet being able, as a whole, to override the Prime Minister, perhaps), and possibly give the Delegate a vote in the Cabinet.

Then allow the various Ministers to oversee they're respective areas, but leave them to largely delegate things and actually create a Ministry. For example, the MoIA could appoint a Dean of the University, a person to process RA applications, and an Editor of the Wire, and the MoEA could appoint an ambassador-general, or create some hierarchy within the Diplomatic Corps. While the appointees could be removed by the next Minister, the idea would be that people would get to positions who really wanted to do that particular job, would stay in that position by proving that they are fully capable of doing it, and such. The Ministers would manage everything and help keep everyone on track, and also handle the political end of it, allowing their appointees to focus on their jobs.

While it would significantly reduce the amount of elected positions, if implemented correctly, I believe it would create more room for people to advance within the region and, more importantly in my view, allow for more diverse ways of advancing. As it is, just about the only way to make a place for yourself at the top of the region is to be in the Cabinet, which I've never liked. We need to diversify, and allowing for people to be able to find their niche, if you will, and have more varied opportunities, would help us, I believe.

I disagree that the only way to be known is through cabinet, Cathyy and Flem (during Moldavi) can attest to that. It certainly is intriguing but not to fearmonger, there is a corruption issue by having the elected ministers rule over disposable workers who want to do good but clash with whatever pet project, poor coffee making or whatnot with the elected minister.

To give the elected minister less to do is something I don't personally get. Nor the idea that those we elected "get to positions" but doesn't "really want[sic] to do that particular job."

Put it in wording and I'll move it along but if the Dean/Chancellor/TNPU planning commission really takes off then this will definitely strengthen this proposal.

mr_sniffles:

I disagree that the only way to be known is through cabinet, Cathyy and Flem (during Moldavi) can attest to that. It certainly is intriguing but not to fearmonger, there is a corruption issue by having the elected ministers rule over disposable workers who want to do good but clash with whatever pet project, poor coffee making or whatnot with the elected minister.

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The Cabinet really is just about the only way to advance within this region. There aren't very many other opportunities. This change wouldn't foster corruption, I don't believe, but increased activity and a more meritocratic (in the true sense of the word, not a reference to the region) atmosphere. People would be able to find the thing they enjoy doing and advance in it based on how competent they are, not based on either how popular they are or how well at politicking they are. It would leave people to run things like the University and the Wire able to not have to worry about the political side of things if they didn't want to, and it would also avoid giving people who only joined the ministry for the political side of it a responsibility they don't particularly care for.

To give the elected minister less to do is something I don't personally get. Nor the idea that those we elected "get to positions" but doesn't "really want[sic] to do that particular job."

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In the case of the Minister of Internal Affairs (which is quite probably the only area that things would be greatly changed), the Minister's portfolio would be greatly expanded, and it would be unreasonable to pretend that one person (even with a deputy) could be expected to (competently) carry out all of those duties. They would, instead, oversee everything, coordinate things, keep up with everyone, and handle the politicking duties.

As for the second part, it seems evident to me that quite a few people run for Cabinet positions simply because they feel like it's what they're supposed to do, or some other such thing, not necessarily because they want to or can handle the responsibilities of the position for the entire term.

Put it in wording and I'll move it along but if the Dean/Chancellor/TNPU planning commission really takes off then this will definitely strengthen this proposal.

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This wasn't really meant to turn into legislation, but be a bit of a brainstorming session in coming up with ideas on how to improve things. I don't hold any illusions that such a proposal would actually pass at this point, but I would hope that at least some of the ideas can begin to take root.

To be honest, other than AlHoma being the MoAE, I really don't find that nor hold such a cynical view about current and past administrations. Given your assumption though, I can perfectly understand what you're trying to do. But as you said, if placements are awarded due to popularity then what's to stop these showman ministers from packing all the appointed roles with friends and political allies?

Also how is meritocratic if authority is held by the unjust, those you believe to be undeserving of their roles? If anything this is one of those band aid solutions you usually decry (personal opinion) but it is radical and completely innovative (both roles nodding in affirmation.)

In the case of the Minister of Internal Affairs (which is quite probably the only area that things would be greatly changed), the Minister's portfolio would be greatly expanded, and it would be unreasonable to pretend that one person (even with a deputy) could be expected to (competently) carry out all of those duties. They would, instead, oversee everything, coordinate things, keep up with everyone, and handle the politicking duties.

As for the second part, it seems evident to me that quite a few people run for Cabinet positions simply because they feel like it's what they're supposed to do, or some other such thing, not necessarily because they want to or can handle the responsibilities of the position for the entire term.

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Still, if say the MoAE or MoC is already bored and turned off from their lack of day to day duties, how do you reconcile keeping them interested? (you know the ones who don't enjoy pushing around underlings.)

Also do you think the Minister should have the power to create the positions under him at will or should they legislated and named, or a mix (must-have legislatively defined with the power to make more at will?)

I have to say though, this is one of the most interesting proposals I've heard since becoming Speaker....

I think the idea is an interesting one and well-thought out.

I would agree with giving the Delegate a vote in the Cabinet, I know the reasons for them not having one by the way, I think the position deserves one anyway.

As to the idea of the region becoming more Meritocratic I think you may be right. One of the things that I dislike here is that for members who join soon after an election, they have about three months or so before they can get any real chance of getting involved and we are likely to lose their interest before the next elections.

So I certainly find your ideas interesting however I am sure that others will disagree.

But as you said, if placements are awarded due to popularity then what's to stop these showman ministers from packing all the appointed roles with friends and political allies?

Also how is meritocratic if authority is held by the unjust, those you believe to be undeserving of their roles?

Still, if say the MoAE or MoC is already bored and turned off from their lack of day to day duties, how do you reconcile keeping them interested? (you know the ones who don't enjoy pushing around underlings.)

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These are all sort of related. The idea is that, with significantly less ministers, the candidate turnout for each position will be correspondingly increased, leading, in general, a higher chance of someone getting in who is deserving of the role and won't abuse the position. Of course, if they do, than either they won't get voted in again or, apparently, the region approves of their friends and political allies anyway.

(regarding the third paragraph) Similarly, with a larger candidate turnout and with it commonly known just what the duties of the ministries are (and, in reality, this would mainly affect just the internal affairs area anyway), I find that situation unlikely to occur. And the internal affairs minister will need the assistance to effectively carry all of those things out, and I'm pretty sure will still have plenty to do.

Also do you think the Minister should have the power to create the positions under him at will or should they legislated and named, or a mix (must-have legislatively defined with the power to make more at will?)

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My tentative answer: Ministers should have the power to create (and, consequently, dismiss) positions at will, however, it would still be possible legislate positions, and only legislated positions (such as Deputies) would be able to be in the line of succession for taking over should the Minister resign or disappear.

I would agree with giving the Delegate a vote in the Cabinet, I know the reasons for them not having one by the way, I think the position deserves one anyway.

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I've never quite understood why, but I just classed it under "Things that aren't important enough to bring up." But it would make sense to go ahead and slip that in, if we were to go ahead with the rest of this.

I like this idea.

Sounds like a good way to get around the whole merging of ministries problem.....

Delegates getting a vote gets my support....

I agree that this would encourage post election membership feeling more engaged in the region rather than just waiting for three months to not get voted in against the more "known" players.....

I think legislating the deputy position but allowing ministers to set up their ministries as they choose (as the MoD currently does) would work well...

Dai....

I didn't like the idea at first, but then I realized it would allow for more activity if you aren't in the cabinet - not less. Just because we have less ministers would not put everyone else out of a job, rather, it would let people get more involved. I like the idea.

mr_sniffles:

To be honest, other than AlHoma being the MoAE,

Still, if say the MoAE or MoC is already bored and turned off from their lack of day to day duties, how do you reconcile keeping them interested? (you know the ones who don't enjoy pushing around underlings.)

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MoAE or MoEA

If I am reading the above statements wrong, please clarify

Wait, people are actually supporting this? I feel tingly.

@mi: I think he meant MoEA in the first line, just a typo (never noticed how close MoEA and MoAE are before).

Anyway, I suppose I can bring out the constitutional editing pen now then?

I didn't like the idea at first, but then I realized it would allow for more activity if you aren't in the cabinet - not less. Just because we have less ministers would not put everyone else out of a job, rather, it would let people get more involved. I like the idea.

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Exactly!

I think legislating the deputy position but allowing ministers to set up their ministries as they choose (as the MoD currently does) would work well...

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This leads me to another point. In reviewing art III sec 2 (elected officials and whatnot), there really is very little about the MoD. There is essentially nothing about what structure the NPA is to take, what internal policies it is to have, or anything of the sort. Similarly, there would be very little put into the constitution about the other ministries. For example, the University would not actually be mentioned, but just some more general lines about enriching regional culture or knowledge or somesuch. At least, this is the idea I'm getting so far.

Another thing I realized was that I had sort of forgotten about the Attorney General (Minister of Justice). Oops? Anyway, since the AG is really just the "chief prosecuting officer" (something like that), and not really a Minister with a specific portfolio, is it entirely necessary? The judicial system is really run by the Justices, the AG just represents the government or whatnot in trials, unless I missed something (possible at 1, 2 am).

Keep in mind that this isn't meant to be final, and was done late at night. But I think this is the general idea.

Section 2. Elected Offices of the Regional Government.

The following offices shall comprise the Cabinet of The North Pacific Regional Government. Except for the UN Delegate for the Region, The Delegate, the Prime Minister, and each Cabinet minister shall have a vote on any Cabinet action. The UN Delegate for the Region, The UN Vice Delegate, each Cabinet-level position, and all other positions established in the Regional Government, has the responsibility to uphold and enforce this Constitution, and to implement and comply with the actions taken by the Regional Government pursuant to this Constitution or The North Pacific Legal Code. Each Cabinet-level position shall have the duties and responsibilities as listed in this Section or as provided elsewhere in this Constitution or in The North Pacific Legal Code. Each Cabinet-level position shall have such authority as is necessary and proper to exercise the powers granted to, or to execute the duties imposed upon, that position under this Constitution, or by The North Pacific Legal Code, or by the other laws enacted pursuant to this Constitution, and subject to such limitations on those powers and duties established under this Constitution. Each Ministerial position shall have the authority to structure their Ministry as they see fit, including, though not limited to, the authority to create and dismiss positions and make appointments by their own initiative. However, these appointed positions shall have no authority outside their Ministry, nor the authority to act as a Minister, unless such authority is specifically granted to them by a constitutional amendment or law. Each Ministerial position shall have the authority to structure their Ministry as they see fit, including, though not limited to, the authority to create and dismiss positions and make appointments by their own initiative. However, these appointed positions shall have no authority outside their Ministry, nor the authority to act as a Minister, unless such authority is specifically granted to them by this document or The North Pacific Legal Code.
1) UN Delegate for the Region and Vice Delegate.
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D- In certain specified circumstances, the UN Delegate for the Region may vote to break a tie between candidates included in a runoff election for the UN Vice Delegate, the Office of Prime Minister and for the Offices of the other Ministers of the Cabinet. The Delegate shall have no vote in meetings of the Cabinet, however, The Delegate is authorized to participate in Cabinet discussions and to attend such meetings, as well as to vote in official Cabinet votes.
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2) Prime Minister.
A - The Prime Minister is the head of the Regional Government. The Prime Minister shall preside at all meetings of the Cabinet. The Prime Minister shall have such authority as is necessary and proper to exercise the powers granted to, or to execute the duties imposed upon, the Prime Minister under this Constitution, or by The North Pacific Legal Code, or by the other laws enacted pursuant to this Constitution, and subject to such limitations on those powers and duties established under this Constitution, including, when necessary, the authority to take charge within any individual Ministry. Any power not expressly granted to any other government official or contrary to the laws and ideals of either this document or The North Pacific Legal Code that is necessary to the continued running of the Government shall be granted to the Prime Minister.
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3) Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs.
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D - The Minister shall encourage the Cultural and Educational arts and industries, protect The North Pacific's heritage, and advance the public information system of the Region in order to maximize their contribution to the region's awareness and social vitality.
E – The Minister shall be responsible for ensuring that the domestic populace of the region has access to sufficient resources to become informed and educated citizens.
F – The Minister shall encourage the growth of initiative among the citizenry of The North Pacific by fostering ideas and supporting programs designed by and led by the region’s citizens.
G – The Minister shall have the responsibility of appointing an Attorney General to serve as the chief prosecuting officer in The Court of The North Pacific, and who shall exercise those responsibilities and duties imposed on the Attorney General under this Constitution and as provided in The North Pacific Legal Code.
4) Minister of External Affairs.
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C – The Minister shall ensure that the interests of The North Pacific are sufficiently and competently represented abroad, that the position of the region is presented properly and diplomatically to other regions, and that the opinion and status of The North Pacific among other regions is protected and, whenever possible, improved upon.
D – The Minister shall be expected to brief the Cabinet, any other organ of Government, or the region itself, on foreign events and The North Pacific’s place in them, while being mindful of any sensitive information, and to make recommendations to any of the aforementioned bodies as to what course of action would be in the region’s best diplomatic interests at such bodies request.
5) Minister of Defense Military Affairs.
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6) Attorney General, serving as Minister of Justice.
A - The Attorney General shall be the chief prosecuting officer in The Court of The North Pacific, and shall exercise those responsibilities and duties imposed on the Attorney General under this Constitution and as provided in The North Pacific Legal Code.
7) Minister of Communications.
A - The Minister shall be responsible for initiating, directing and moderating debates on subjects of Regional and national interest, such as legislative and Cabinet issues within the Regional Government, UN proposals and resolutions, and general interest discussions.
B- The Minister, in conjunction with the Prime Minister or the minister with appropriate jurisdiction, shall be responsible for the publication of the actions of the Regional Government, both within and outside of the Region.
C- The Minister, unless required for specified identifiable reasons of regional security to withhold specific material (as determined in each instance by a majority vote of the Cabinet), shall provide the publication if full of the records and minutes of Cabinet proceedings and debates. The vote of the Prime Minister and each Cabinet Minister in a Cabinet meeting shall be a matter of public record.
8) Minister of Arts and Entertainment.
A - The Minister shall be responsible for moderating the Out-of-Character, Role-Playing and Games forums at the Regional off-site forums.
B - The Minister shall initiate and oversee activities and topics for the general entertainment of The North Pacific's member Nations.
9) Minister of Culture and Education.
A - The Minister shall encourage the Cultural and Educational arts and industries, protect The North Pacific's heritage, and advance the public information system of the Region in order to maximize their contribution to the region's awareness and social vitality.

I have a bunch of comments, but not the time at the moment.

Among other things, I'm sorting out who would be good to have on that commission.

First, the Ministers basically have a lot of the flexibility already that you've suggested they don't have. Both the Constitution and the Legal Code contain some things, but that does not preclude Ministerial initiative in other ways.

Second, none of the actual Ministries are limited to just the one constitutionally required deputies. I'm still trying to figure out how that conclusion was ever reached, since there is nothing currently in the Constitution that prevents it.

The Attorney General is not only the chief prosecutor of the region, that office selects and maages any prosecutors in all cases (criminal or otherwise) and decides whether criminal indictments will be filed. He would also be involved in impeachment proceedings (presumably helping to compile and present evidence to the grand jury.) While the courts might end up deciding the merits of the case,, the Attorney General decides whether there is a case to be brought. So the role is not minor, and abolishing the position would be a very bad idea in terms of checks and balances between the three branches of governance.

Grosseschnauzer:

The Attorney General is not only the chief prosecutor of the region, that office selects and maages any prosecutors in all cases (criminal or otherwise) and decides whether criminal indictments will be filed. He would also be involved in impeachment proceedings (presumably helping to compile and present evidence to the grand jury.) While the courts might end up deciding the merits of the case,, the Attorney General decides whether there is a case to be brought. So the role is not minor, and abolishing the position would be a very bad idea in terms of checks and balances between the three branches of governance.

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I'll add more after I eat something, just wanted to touch on this. I missed that particular section, since I was focusing on just the one section here, and, as I said, it was quite late when I did this. I imagine that would make the MoIA appointing the AG a little awkward, though. So, I'll have to figure that out, I suppose.

I would have to agree that it would trim down the government a bit and increase seperation of powers of the various branches of government.

Given the current arrangement, the Prime Minister, who should be the supreme executive officer, lacks a level of authority to act in an executive authority befitting the position.

One solution, suggested by Poltsamaa and a couple others a while back was to have most or all of the cabinet appointed by the PM with confirmation by the RA. This approach would reduce the number of elected positions, but considering that the RA would have to confirm PM appointments, it would not reduce the level of democratic input.

It essentially establishes a 'to the victor goes the spoils' system, but isn't that what politics essentially boils down to?

One solution, suggested by Poltsamaa and a couple others a while back was to have most or all of the cabinet appointed by the PM with confirmation by the RA. This approach would reduce the number of elected positions, but considering that the RA would have to confirm PM appointments, it would not reduce the level of democratic input.

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That was suggested at least as early as the NPD/NPC negotiations (failed), and I would be willing to go for that as well (just as I was then), except I considered it even more of a longshot than this proposal. I do believe the PM needs to be beefed up somewhat, hence the little addition I made in this proposal (allowing the PM to take charge and override individual Ministers, thus giving them, essentially, supreme executive authority. As it is, the PM has really been more akin to a cheerleader role than an actual Head of Government.

Anyway, back to the AG: I don't really have much of a problem leaving it as is, except for the concern of cabinet votes. Under the proposal, we would have Del, MoEA, MoIA, MoMA (heh), and PM. Adding the AG would leave the possibility of a tie. Solutions I'm seeing so far: Give the Prime Minister the tie-breaker vote, give the Speaker the tie-breaker vote, make the AG nonvoting, or leave the Del as nonvoting, in order of most prefer to least prefer.

First, the Ministers basically have a lot of the flexibility already that you've suggested they don't have. Both the Constitution and the Legal Code contain some things, but that does not preclude Ministerial initiative in other ways.

Second, none of the actual Ministries are limited to just the one constitutionally required deputies. I'm still trying to figure out how that conclusion was ever reached, since there is nothing currently in the Constitution that prevents it.

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I realize this. This proposal, however, would basically force the MoIA to delegate out tasks and actually use that flexibility. Also, as it is, the various internal affairs ministries are somewhat limited in their scope, and sometimes it isn't entirely clear whether something falls in one category or another (for example, the NPWire was originally the jurisdiction of the MoCE, not the MoC). This would remove that and consolidate those ministries into one, which would allow for greater freedom of movement, if you will.

I had not realized that you had posted a proposal just before my previous post. (I was responding to what had preceded that in the thread.)

do not believe that philosophically, the delegate, being the ceremonial head of state should have a vote in the Cabinet. If the PM is to be head of government, then the position should not have competition for the functional role by giving the Delegate a vote. The obly time the Delegate votes as Delegate is to break tie in a runoff election (which has not yet happened. Under your proposal, then, that solves the AG having a vote, which the AG currently had. You wouldn't have a even number of ministries.

And I think the Prime Minister has more authority in the Constitution than you think it does. I'll have to put that together for you later. I've been working on other issues (such as dealing with the registration proces and the commission you and I have previously discussed) but I will get back to this when I can.

The only problem I have with giving the PM that kind of power, under the current set up, is that it kinda undermines Ministry elections. If someone is elected PM, and they don't like the person elected MoD (or MoMA if you like) they can effectively replace that person. Which is fine in itself, but sort of has the potential to make Ministry elections much less important, especially if you don't get on with the PM candiate.

But then, I personally like the idea of appointed/confirmed ministers. Which would mean this isn't an issue.

Whilst Grosse is right, there is no reason why this can't already been done (I've done it with the MoEA in past terms, with the Ambassador-General and the MoD essentially does it with their rank structure) it doesn't tend to be used. In part, I guess, because in the case of most ministrys (MoAE, MoC, MoCE) it has to be said that there is barely enough for a minister to do to keep active, let alone any more positions.

Romanoffia:

One solution, suggested by Poltsamaa and a couple others a while back was to have most or all of the cabinet appointed by the PM with confirmation by the RA. This approach would reduce the number of elected positions, but considering that the RA would have to confirm PM appointments, it would not reduce the level of democratic input.

It essentially establishes a 'to the victor goes the spoils' system, but isn't that what politics essentially boils down to?

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I think that would turn the region into a Dictatorship and it would certainly be a lot less democratic.