Lexiconian Applications

Former English Colony

Former English Colony

InFECtious
-
-
-
-
Pronouns
she/her
TNP Nation
Former English Colony
Discord
Erastide
Well ladies and gents, I need some input here. What should be done about Lexiconian applications? (And Hers, as an admin I'd like your input into helping us detect people applying twice as Flem says one Lex has done)

I'd like to get going on applications, but I want to know if I should just accept the Lexis or should we do something else? As Flem said to Eluvatar earlier, both sides have declared the war to be over, but the question is do both sides trust each other....
 
My personal oppinion is that if we cant prove malious intention then we should not deny their aplication. However we should NOT let our guard down and we should consider passing some duality legislation, (like the revised oath) before we let them in.
 
First, I want to ask all the members of this term's Cabinet, who were not part of last term's Cabinet to read the thread "Limitless Events" in this private forum. Towards the end of the thread, Hers in his capacity as director of the NPIA provides information that we all need to be aware of and keep in mind.
We have to make a determination as to whether there should be prosecutions based on that information (or any other information the NPIA may have that has not et been disclosed).

At the moment, the moritorium put in place by Flemingovia before the elections and approved by both the Security Council and the previous Cabinet remains in place.

The next factor to keep in mind is that a proposal started by Flemingovia to amend the oath to join the RA is in formal discussion and about to head to a vote as a constitutional amendment. Under that amendment, everyone will be required to execute the amended oath. That amendment, I believe, at least in part addresses the duality issue, and the question is whether anything else should be considered at this time. There is one complication -- the trial of Fulhead Land is still in progress. Since Southwest Asia is now Attorney General, he has the authority to supervise the prosecutor, and it's evident to me that some supervision may be in order so that case can go to the jury and the trial concluded.

I'm of two minds of how to describe what our current status is vis-a-vis the Lexicon. One mind says we are in a cold war where they are concerned, the other says we are at a cold peace. Either way, it is not a war, and there is no normalcy.

I do not yet have a specific plan of action as to what we should do. I do want to have everyone's toughts on these concerns, since they are inter-related and we have to resolve them in some sort of way that is fair and which enhances our regional security.
 
The whole thing is a bit of a stiky wicket. I'm not in favor of allowing an openly hostile region with a history of hostility and acts toward our region any say in how we run our region. Eventually it will lead to the problems that resulted in the previous actions. I would bet that IP and Cathyy despite supposedly not being involved that they are, in fact, involved. We can never be sure that The LExicon is not a tool of theirs for incursion attempts.

Until we have absolute agreement by both regions that there will be no monkey business, and until we have the means to soundly thump them on their own turf if needs be, I wouldn't even begin to trust them.
 
Aye... I wouldn't support letting them in at the moment.

It's too bad, because there are a couple (like Eluvatar) that I trust, but we can't just pick and choose IMO.
 
No Lexiconians at all, just that simple. Adopt a policy of plain NO to Lexis. Also I'll rush a vote on the fifteenth. FEC, this is your chance to provide a true update to the RA lists, obviously take your time but I'm damn near giddy at the idea of a REAL updated list of RA members.
 
I can try and run a security check on any account you want me to - I'll reference the email and IP address against all others on the forum, as well as run a proxy check on the IP address.

If anyone seems to be using a proxy, you will have a legal right to deny their application. It's in the Legal Code that proxies are illegal. I have a feeling a lot of people are using them anyway, but it's often hard to prove, especially with dial-up connections.

If anyone comes up without an e-mail address, that could probably be used as sufficent cause to deny they application.

The Lexicon has proven to be a risk to our region. The fact that they were able to convince a member of our government to turn traitor is enough for great concern. There are still some people in the government I have concern with, however there is not enough information to completely legitimize these concerns.

Until we have absolute agreement by both regions that there will be no monkey business, and until we have the means to soundly thump them on their own turf if needs be, I wouldn't even begin to trust them.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, with a region of their size, such an attack would be rather difficult. They also still have an active founder, which I believe is controlled by Fulhead Land. They have 517 nations (Isn't that half of what they had a few months ago? :blink:), 117 of which are endorsing the Delegate. Even if we managed to stage a mass invasion (which is something that has been suggested in the NPA before, but always shot down), it wouldn't last long, and we wouldn't be able to ban or eject many people at all.

Eras, for the time being, it may be best to simply deny any applications from known Lexiconers (or those who have been deemed connected to the lex via a security check), due to "ongoing investigations into regional security caused by recent events." Or something like that.

The United Federation of Hersfold
Director of The North Pacific Intelligence Agency
 
Doesn't the Constitution provide for the presumption of innocence? If we deny TNP resident nations membership in the RA simply because they have another nation in the Lexicon, you better believe they will be entitled to the moral high ground.

Also consider the effect of closing our doors. Nations who want to join will be driven underground and compelled to conceal any Lexi affiliations. Wouldn't it be better to know up-front who we are dealing with?
 
We know who we're dealing with and trust me, they're not up front about it. If they were then Limi wouldn't be our newest dirty word. I'm all for an open and tolerant society but there are limits as Limitless has proven. These people are out to destroy us, they play the peace card and then try to rig our elections out from under our noses. It's too soon, too fast to start accepting them now. After they've PROVEN that they are actually interested in peace, in respecting our sovereignty then we'll start the talks.
 
I am REALLY in two minds about this.

On the one hand, I welcome the declaration by SD that the war is over, and I am sure many in the lexicon are sincere in their desire to put this behind them. Objectively, I think the war has harmed the lexicon far more than it has harmed tnp.

On the other hand less than a month ago the lexicon used peace negotiations as a cover for an attack on our region; and this attack was approved and encouraged by all the high council, including those we like to think of as moderates. What reason have we to trust the sincerity of this peace approach?

In addition, the cessation of war is not just a matter of words and declaration. It has to be accompanied by acts. Yet only last week (after the declaration of the end of the war) a Lexicon founder, Cathyy, has declared that NO member of the TNP government is welcome on the lexicon chat channel on irc. Another founder, Fullhead Land, is delaying my appeal for my forum ban on the lexicon forum to be overturned.

I am not that bothered about visiting the lexicon forum, but since the ban was imposed for no other reason (flaming etc) other than as an act of the war, I take it as something of an "acid test" that the war is actually over.

Actions speak louder than words.

My opinion is this. Less than a month ago they were trying to stack our RA, and now they want us to put out the welcome mat? Before the lexiconians start talking about “rights” such as rights to become RA members, they should be talking about trust. It will take time for trust to grow between our regions, and if they are not willing to give that trust a time to grow, I immediately become suspicious of their motives.

I feel we should ask the Lexiconians to withdraw their RA applications. Their response to that should tell us a lot about their motives. If they will not withdraw their applications, then they should be denied for the reasons Hersfold gave above.
 
Can we not offer them provisional RA status of some kind with very limited masking to see what their intentions are.....???
 
I agree with Flem, ask them to withdraw and judge by their actions, but Dai's idea, we could mix that in.

Maybe set them on a limited RA membership, without the right to vote, and see if they mention anything? If the majority of them are outraged by that, then wouldn't that mean that they are planning on swaying votes?


*Monumental Proportions goes to search the Constitution about this.
 
I would hesitate at finding some sort of compromise to them, I would either say fine and let them all in or say no and let none. We cannot afford to be weak and make concessions to us when they refuse to do any to us.
 
The only way a half-way could be created constitutionally would require either a constitutional amendment, or a treaty with the Lexicon on some type of political relationship other than a commonwealth that would create such a status.

I'm doubtful the latter is possible, and I'm not sure the former would even pass.

There is one way to test the waters with the RA as a whole.

I filed a petition for Cabinet review of Limi's acceptance of two of the applications just before Flem took action based upon the NPIA's information. Since the Cabinet upheld Flem's actions (as did the SC for that matter) the Cabinet effectively reversed the acceptance. Under the Cabinet Review process that should have already gone to the RA for approval of the Cabinet's decision to reverse. There is no timeframe as to when the RA can vote on it, but I would suggest that it could be the mechanism under which the RA can confirm that acceptance of applications from Lexiconians is a security risk thereby barring them, or at a minum effectively shifting the burden of proof to the applicants on that concern. Is there any reason not to allow that question to go to a vote of the RA?

In addition, the constitutional amendment concerning the oath will come to a vote on the floor of the RA within a day or two, and the new language being added will have the effect of barring some Lexiconians since it prohibits waging undeclared war on TNP.

What this comes down to is how willing we are to bar the Lexiconians who we have knowledge that they participated in waging war on TNP and whether there are sufficient intelligence resourses (or can add additional resources) concerning any applicant who may have Lexiconian connections.

The reality is that at best, there is a "cold peace" between TNP and the Lexicon, if not a "cold war." What we need to do is settle upon a strategy to address this state of affairs that limits the security risk to TNP.
 
Daimiaena:
Can we not offer them provisional RA status of some kind with very limited masking to see what their intentions are.....???
Click to expand...
And create a sub-class of RA members? You mean like second-class citizens, no thanks. NP-ers deserve better.
 
mr_sniffles:
Daimiaena:
Can we not offer them provisional RA status of some kind with very limited masking to see what their intentions are.....???
Click to expand...
And create a sub-class of RA members? You mean like second-class citizens, no thanks. NP-ers deserve better.
Click to expand...
You mean like the RV's used to be? >_>

I wonder whether we ought to actually *have* a two tier system, where the RA's vote in elections and RV's vote on laws and constitutional amendments. *shrugs*
 
To be honest my Idea of a provisional membership was posted at 9.05 am after a sleepless nite.....

It's a stupid idea....I don't want a two tier system either...

Looking at how things stand at the moment I would have to agree that the oath amendment will force their hands one way or the other....
 
John Ashcroft Land:
Splitting RAs with RVs would mean a lot of beaurocracy. I really like our system as it is.
Click to expand...
It was hard enough smashing the two together. Plus, as has been pointed out, a "sub-class" would not only be illegal, but would probably piss off anyone stuck in it, not just Lexiconians. That won't do it.

I think Flem's idea is best so far. It allows us to try to get rid of them without much diplomatic or legal hassle, and if they refuse, they end up giving us a reason to kick them out anyway.
 
Flem's idea is the most politick* solution there is.


*Pardon the archaic spelling - is just has a little more punch than 'politic' as a simple adverb. :P
 
As far as a two tier system, I think thats a step backwards in what I consider a very special NS democracy. Our region is special, one that offers equal chances for anyone to get involved. I personally am glad I was never part of the RV and RA system, and will be against any system that creates an elite and sub class.

Now with the Lexiconian Applications I stand with what I say, we might not want to let them in now, and pass some legislation first, but I think it would speak highly of us to let them in eventually. That doesnt mean trust them all out, we can still have the admins look for proxies and such, but sometime in the future we may want to reconsider having the Lexiconian joining the RA.

This is not people that have links to the overthrow plot, I think they should be revoked of RA, however people like Elu and the resent ex-lexi who joined us, should be able to.
 
dont pick it up:
As far as a two tier system, I think thats a step backwards in what I consider a very special NS democracy.  Our region is special, one that offers equal chances for anyone to get involved.  I personally am glad I was never part of the RV and RA system, and will be against any system that creates an elite and sub class.
Click to expand...
The original voting system on legislation was the RVs. At the constitutional convention, a RA was introduced, but it was total voluntary -- any RV who wanted to be in the RA simply reqested it. There were no additional requirements. (I actually prefer just having the RV, but the symbolism of an RA seemed to be important to others.)

Now with the Lexiconian Applications I stand with what I say, we might not want to let them in now, and pass some legislation first, but I think it would speak highly of us to let them in eventually.  That doesnt mean trust them all out, we can still have the admins look for proxies and such, but sometime in the future we may want to reconsider having the Lexiconian joining the RA.

This is not people that have links to the overthrow plot, I think they should be revoked of RA, however people like Elu and the resent ex-lexi who joined us, should be able to.
Click to expand...

The problem is knowing who could be trusted. Keep in mind that the group of applicants with Lexicon connections applied at the same time as the plot was being put into place. Who can say with any certainty that none of them had any connection to the plot or the plotters? Can you be sure that the group making the applications did so coincidentiallY?

This is the dilemma that both the previous Cabinet and this Cabinet is faced with. There is no easy solution. In other words, how would we be able to "trust, but verify"?

I have no problem with asking that group of applications who we reasonably believe were connected to the Lexicon and irs plot to withdraw their applications because of it, as Flem has suggested. Nor do I have a problem with the idea of otherwise rejecting those applications on the basis that Flem and Hersfold have both mentioned.

However, it does mean that, from what I can tell, we will need to increase our intelligence capacity (however that might work) in order to deal with what I expect would be further efforts on the part of the Lexicon or its agents to gain entry into TNP and this government. And based on their history, I would expect nothing less. As I've said before, we're either in a "cold war" or a "cold peace" where the Lexicon is concerned.
 
I have a suggestion, how about we actually use the NPIA?

I mean the Intel agency exists for that sole purpose, defending TNP from outside threats through use of advanced operations information acquired by any means. I am quite sure the NPIA director had some sort of trace or something on Fedele and I when we joined TNP hallowed halls (not to mention Hersfold's oh-so-discrete agent) then why not do the same with applicants admitted they are from The Lexicon? Its only natural and fair and would keep both sides happy.
 
I'd like to ask for a Cabinet vote that will allow me to process RA applications. Chapstickisfun is in line to be a deputy, but they are not yet an RA member. I've sent the requests to Hersfold for checking, based on teh results I will decide whether people can immediately be admitted or must wait. I don't want to process any until *after* the new oath goes into effect, so feel free to debate for a little while.

As to the Lexiconians (that we know of) I plan to sit on those until we come to a consensus on what we want to do (if it takes us that long).
 
I had opportunity to ask Eluvatar last night why, if the war is over, my petition to be readmittted to the lexicon forum had not been successful.

His response was thus:

[01:52] <Eluvatar> We may not be entirely friendly, yet, but we are not at war.

Since that is a lexiconian position, they can hardly explode if we deny them RA status on the grounds that "we are not entirely friendly yet"
 
flemingovia:
Since that is a lexiconian position, they can hardly explode if we deny them RA status on the grounds that "we are not entirely friendly yet"
Click to expand...
Agreed. Unless they're waiting for us to act first (admit them) and we've turned this into a staring contest.
 
Alright Flem, five days should be enough for the "diplomatic approach" but RA applications have been suspended for about 3 weeks, this is unacceptable. Just think of all the players we've lost let alone the legality of it entirely, anyways if this fails then we vote.

Let them in (decide on extra security and some snooping later)

or

Keep them Out

Anyone else with a third option?
 
Well, if we really wanted to engage in some Realpolitik and make them oblige or expose their true colors, we can approach it from a diplomatic viewpoint.

What we do is require them to first normalize diplomatic relations with TNP first in order to solve the previous 'state of war' and the current level of 'hostility' they have for us; second, we require the drafting of a treaty to solve any issues (which of course would require a long, drawn out constitutional process, of course); third, we require that for every Lexicon citizen admitted to our RA that we are permitted to admit the same number of TNP citizens to their rolls, etc., etc., tit for tat.

Put in blunt terms, we bury them with so many obstacles that they have no choice but to play nice because causing trouble would be too much effort for them to engage in.

And, of course, we'd have to pass a lot of legislation first to arrange this and that could take years. :shifty:

Sooner or later their frustration will either subside or they will blow up looking like fools in the process. Hey, after all, they have their own region to run, why do they want to try to 'help' run someone else's region?

If they are serious about being productive participants in this region, they will oblige. If they are up to no good they will either go away never to be heard from again or do something really aggressively stupid that will only give us an excuse to put their knickers in a twist and have done with it.

We have a good bureaucracy as a tool. It would be a shame not to put it to use. :P

The idea is essentially to redirect any hostile intentions they might have in a direction that is easy for us to handle, manage and direct (direct into a dead-end if needs be).
 
Blue Wolf II:
I have a suggestion, how about we actually use the NPIA?

I mean the Intel agency exists for that sole purpose, defending TNP from outside threats through use of advanced operations information acquired by any means. I am quite sure the NPIA director had some sort of trace or something on Fedele and I when we joined TNP hallowed halls (not to mention Hersfold's oh-so-discrete agent) then why not do the same with applicants admitted they are from The Lexicon? Its only natural and fair and would keep both sides happy.
Click to expand...
:mad: Keep your furry blue nose out of my agency.

I have been working on increasing the activity and efficency of the NPIA since the recent incident. I remind the Cabinet that the direction of the Agency is my duty, not that of the Cabinet or its Ministers, certaintly not their deputies. I am growing tired of people attempting to override my authority.

I am not an incompetent and I am perfectly capable of directing the Agency with which I have been entrusted.

And as a reminder, the "not-so-discrete agent" was not acting on my orders. If you're really so paranoid about what I have my agents do, quit giving me reasons to be suspicious.

The United Federation of Hersfold
Director of The North Pacific Intelligence Agency
 
Constitution Article III Section 2 Part 2:
C - There is to be a North Pacific Intelligence Agency whose duties are to collect and analyze confidential intelligence information for the benefit of the Regional Government and the region as a whole. The Prime Minister shall appoint the leadership of the North Pacific Intelligence Agency after consultation with the personnel of that agency. Any matter concerning the Agency's activities and personnel, except in the case of a criminal prosecution, shall be discussed in confidence without reference in any public record; however, there may be disclosure of confidential information in connection with a criminal or impeachment proceeding. The Prime Minister shall be responsible to the Cabinet and the Regional Assembly for the ongoing oversight of the Agency.
Click to expand...

It's my responsibility to oversee the NPIA. It's part of the job description for the Prime Minister.

edited to point out the italicized sentence in this section. All Ministers and Deputy Ministers are strictly reminded to observe this limitation against public discussion. The NPIA Director and I will determine whether and to what extent there will be public references to the NPIA -- Obviously some public reference has been and is going to be necessary, but speculation as to the NPIA activities is going to be discouraged, since there is no way you will truly know what is factually correct.
Suffice it to say that the NPIA is aware that we are encouraging that it have additional resources, and I have already stated both publicly and privately that the NPIA has my support in that respect.
 
My apologies, Prime Minister. I did not mean to say that you did not have the authority, I was referring to the rest of the Cabinet, mainly the members who have attempted to step outside their authority.
 
Blue Wolf II:
(not to mention Hersfold's oh-so-discrete agent)
Click to expand...
A}Then why mention it after posting the "not to mention" part?
B}The nation in question was never a member of NPIA.
C}The nation in question was never a member of TNP.
D}The nation in question had no communication with Hersfold at all...prior to, during or since the incident.

I thought we'd been through all that...ages ago.....

Dai....

EDIT: Excess rantage removed.....
 
Hersfold:
Daimiaena is (probably soon to be was, pending an ongoing vote of no confidence) an Officer of the North Pacific Intelligence Agency. She volunteered her services in the region of The Lexicon, due to her supposed secure IP address, which reportedly could not be traced to her identity. Daimiaena stated that she would forward any intelligence to me, without recieveing any orders to do so. Despite some rumors of a possible threat to our region stemming from the Lexicon, amongst other regions, no viable information was ever supplied from Daimiaena.

I should remind everyone that information regarding the NPIA is largely based on a need-to-know basis, and that the grand majority of non-members do not generally need to know. You have my assurance that all other Officers and Agents are well secured in their current postings, if they are indeed posted at all.
Click to expand...

Link is provided here.


Would you like salt or pepper with your hat?


Also, Hersfold, it is not outside my authority to suggest, as I did.
 
First, would it theoretically be possible for GBM to ban the various relatively-high-influence known and loyal endotarts in our region?
 
Nope. I could ban either Unter or FEC but not both. And I have Truckler status, which is two above Minnow. They are either Handshakers or Duckspeakers.
 
Blue Wolf, I fail to see what relevance that statement has to the current topic.
Two elections have passed since then. If you are trying to stir things up; keep in mind you are not even an elected Minister, you are an appointed deputy.

So knock it off!
 
I assure you, ripping open of old wounds was the farthest thing from my mind when I last posted, although the whole thing does have a certain element of relevance to our current predicament now that you mention it. No matter, I am just a humble Deputy whose opinion is clearly either not wanted or needed; you may go about your business.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top