North Korea Nuke Test

Namyeknom

Namyeknom

TNPer
As promised, North Korea appear to have carried out an underground nuclear test this morning.

While it in no way means they have a complete nuclear arsenal yet, it was hailed as a "historic event that brought happiness to our military and people" by he North Korean State media, and with much gnashing of teeth from vitrually everyone else...

Full story.

So where do you think this is going to go from here? Will diplomatic sanctions and persuasion be enough to halt North Korea's nuclear ambitions? Does the UN have enough teeth left to have an effect?

And if not, assuming North Korea eventually develops a complete nuclear bomb, and the capabilities to deliver it, what will happen then? Is the military option still on the table? Or would someone take action before it got that far?


and:


:boom
 
Diplomatic means have been tried and have failed, I'm usually leaning heavily towards pacifism but such nuclear blackmail should not be tolerated. Heavy bombing, no ground troops but cocktails of cruise missiles and b-2's should teach the world the consequences of such actions.

But on the flip side, nuclear disarment must be accelerated starting with the US and Russia. China (has claimed but never disproven) that it has halted its own nuclear missile creation, Israel is next with first an admission then inspections. Iran should know its place after the bombing of North Korea and India and Pakistan's nuclear staring contest can only be stopped the way the Cold War ended; lots of backhanded diplomatic deals.
 
As I was saying on IRC, I think it's extremely dangerous to physically attack North Korea now that they clearly have the bomb. Beyond that, they could raze the multimillion city of Seoul with conventional artillery.

Any action has to be extremely carefully considered. The risks are very high.

The only good thing I see coming out of this is China, Sough Korea, Russia, Japan, and the United States agreeing about something. Hopefully.
 
Eluvatar:
Because Kim Jong Il is a lunatic? genius?
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Fixed your post.

He is an artist of brinksmanship and he knows exactly how to scare the West into getting what he wants. Not generally qualities that a lunatic posesses.
 
They're just trying to antagonize the rest of the world but as OP said Kim Jong-Il is good at doing so as it would be tot risky even for Bush to ever invade the country as it has nucleur weapons and it so heavily militarized.
 
Kim Jong-Il is basicly saying this to the rest of the I wana be king of the world countries.



defiance.jpg
 
Woah, a post of MI's I actually understood!

Hasn't NK threatened to use the bomb on some other countries? I thought that was the main reason people were so itchy about them having one.
 
We're in quite a pickle since we're stuck in Iraq, heh.

Kim Jong Il isn't going to negotiate anything that doesn't entirely benefit himself, so diplomacy won't work.

Easy answer is to blitz North Korea with bombs and missles before they have time to respond, but that would likely result in mass North Korean casualties, which we'd want to avoid.

On the other hand, a more methodical, civilian friendly approach like what we did in Iraq... won't work. Didn't work in Nam, didn't work in Iraq, won't work in NK.

So in closing, I am glad I am not the President :P
 
I gotta agree with OPA here.....why is it only the US and people that kowtow to US foreign policies that are "allowed" to have nukes???

I find most of your attitudes deeply offensive....I hope they are only IC comments....

Let's not forget the only country to ever use Nuclear weapons in anger is the US...why are they more trustworthy with nukes than NK???

And how come when NK does it...it's called nuclear blackmail....yet all the other countries who already have weapons are merely "defending democracy"???

Also....How can you say Kim Jong iL is ansane???...based on what exactly???...would you be claiming that georgie boy is sane???



Here endeth the rant!!!....(For Now)

Dai.....
 
*Hersfold should probably censor MI's version of Time Magazine, but finds it quite funny.

I'll remove it if it offends anyone. *cough*Bushlovers*cough*
 
Anyone who cannot see the difference between the US havinf nuclear weapons and North Korea having nuclear weapons is either naive, an idiot or both!!
 
Anyone who claims that there is a difference between two countries having the same idiotic "defence" policies....is obviously much more attuned to the subtleties of world politics than I...
I am genuinely curious as to how the difference is so obvious....that one can be called naive for not recognising it.....
Or are you merely doing the usual US is cool...everyone else sux and needs to be ruled over by the great wise and good US of A-holes???

Dai...(a Naive Idiot...apparently)
 
While I find it doubtful NK would actually use a nuke on someone else, I have to agree that trusting Kim-Jong Il as much as you would the United States is a little, ahh, foolish.
 
Yes Kim is insane! I have a relative who was able to buy an Opera of his works from North Korea titled "Sea of Blood" for instance! Have you ever seen any North Korean propoganda? :2c:
 
Ok, Bush is evil but Jong Il is insane. My point which has not been properly illustrated is simply this: Bush created this situation by antagonizing most of the world with the "with us or against us," doctrine of pre-emption, and Axis of Evil. I'm the first guy to point out true fights for the greater good or simply maintaining US foreign interests. This is not about maintaining American domination over the Pacific, this is not about avoiding an arms race between four emerging world powers (Japan, China, South Korea), this is not about protecting North America from buying Nintendo and Hyundai, this is not about keeping the nuclear capable club that much more exclusive: this is about a rational response to irrational aggression.

Kim Jong Il does not care about civilians, in fact he's been starving them for twenty years just to become nuclear capable. I'm not saying Bush is better, I'm just saying as evil as Bush is, Bush has reasons: Jong Il does not. There is no such thing as a rational response to irrational aggression, Iran wants to counter Israel, North Korea has no threat unless you count Nuclear armed China (it's only trading partner.) I'm as Chomsky as it gets when it comes to American foreign policy but there's no reasoning, and to allow Jong Il to exist would only allow Hitler to be alive.

If Jong Il wants nukes, Bush can give him several. Eliminate all nuclear arms first, cruise missile their artillery capablilities shortly after to save Seoul, then conventional bomb them again and again. Fuck civilian casualties, they've been starving for two decades some have no recollection of living without decay, we're doing them a favour.

Anyone who thinks I'm a pro-Bush heartless Neo-Con can read EVERY OTHER MESSAGE I HAVE EVER POSTED, this is the real deal. This is the James Bond type supervillian, except there's no MI6 to save the day. Only bombs.

Personally, I think nuclear weapons represent everything that is absolutely wrong with humanity. They are the embodiment of everything we have yet to achieve, to rely on such cold horror just to get along is beyond me. More nukes bad, less nukes good. So if two of them are destroyed to kill Jong Il, good.

This is not anger as a symptom of fear, this is anger out of frustration and disappointment. The 1994 deal allowed NK to have both free power and free food, and they still threw it away by 1998. Bush may have daddy issues but Jong Il is not threatening the world, and the existence of humanity itself for greed, a reasoned if not evil emotion; it's pride. It's irrational, it cannot be understood, it cannot be side-stepped, it cannot be reasoned with, it cannot be sated. There main reason for refusing to negotiate? US's unwillingness to have bilateral talks, to treat them like Soviet Russia. Can the US honestly negotiate an agreement with a nation it has sanctioned with Russia and China, the only nations with access and a history of dealing with this nation? No. Is North Korea willing to create, use, and threaten the world because of this snub? Yes.

Lastly: Bush is evil, Jong Il is insane. Jong Il must be eliminated, he is a threat not to peaceful nations or individuals but to the very idea of reason; the defining feature of humanity.
 
Daimiaena:
Anyone who claims that there is a difference between two countries having the same idiotic "defence" policies....is obviously much more attuned to the subtleties of world politics than I...
I am genuinely curious as to how the difference is so obvious....that one can be called naive for not recognising it.....
Or are you merely doing the usual US is cool...everyone else sux and needs to be ruled over by the great wise and good US of A-holes???

Dai...(a Naive Idiot...apparently)
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One glaring difference is that Bush is answerable to the people of his country, Kim Jong-Il is not!!

Secondly, I have said nothing about the US being cool and everyone else sucks!! When your hatred of the US drives you to compare the leader of a democracy to an insane tyrant and find no discernable difference then you are naive, an idiot or both!!

An idiot answerable to his/her people (Bush, assuming you consider him an idiot) is less of a threat than an idiot answerable to no one (Kim Jong Il)!!
 
I have no hatred for the US per se.....Most of the US people I have met or been in contact with..(including in NS)...are quite reasonable people....I do however have an intense dislike for the US inclination to preach to other people as to how they should live or be bombed into submission....

@Zemonaya....being able to write an opera is considered by some to be an act of creative genius...(yes I know Insanity and genius are very close)....and is no real proof of insanity...

@M I....Thank you....the whole who's propoganda is better thing is sort of my point...

@Mr Sniffles...If I am reading your post right....and taking into account your previous posts....I understand your position....I just find your solution a little sledgehammer for a walnut type of thing.....If Kim Jong il is really the problem we have a little thing in England called the SaS who are rather good at disappearing people....Doesn't that make more sense than taking a war like stance against the rest of the N koreans....

@Poltsamaa..(finally able to spell your name right)...I agree that an idiot who is answerable to no one is quite dangerous...(the current situation with Moldavi being a good example)....though I would say that if you believe the US to be Democratic that is a tad naive....

Dai...(still quite naive...maybe not such an idiot???)
 
Daimiaena:
I have no hatred for the US per se.....Most of the US people I have met or been in contact with..(including in NS)...are quite reasonable people....I do however have an intense dislike for the US inclination to preach to other people as to how they should live or be bombed into submission....
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No, you calling the USA the US of Assholes threw me off the scent then!! Your language betrays you and your hatred of the US overrides your reason!!

@Poltsamaa..(finally able to spell your name right)...I agree that an idiot who is answerable to no one is quite dangerous...(the current situation with Moldavi being a good example)....though I would say that if you believe the US to be Democratic that is a tad naive....
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Moldavi is answerable to those who endorse him!! But off-topic attacks aside, the US is a representative democracy!! The government is answerable to the people at election time!! Whether you believe the system in the US to be ideal is beside the point!! In Noerth Korea, there are no election!! Kim Jong Il inherited the "throne" from his father!! He also signed a constitutional amendment making him leader for life!! So, no elections, no accountability and nobody to answer to!!

This coupled with his often bizarre behaviour sure as hell makes me nervous now that he has nuclear weapons!! Maybe you should ask the Japanese who is a bigger threat to regional safety in North Asia!! The US or NK?! While you are at it ask the South Koreans and to some extent, the Chinese!!

I'm sure Mexico and Canada do not live in fear of a nuclear strike from the US!! Why is that?! I mean, you are telling me that the US is as unpredictable and beligerent as North Korea!!

Dai...(still quite naive...maybe not such an idiot???)
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You are just blinded by idealistic hatred!!
 
Hmmm, interesting. Quite the hornets nest.

The only way I can see sanctions working, is if the whole world effectively cuts NK off, no more aid of any kind. Whether the international community has the will to sit back and watch the NK population strave is debatable.

The US ambassador has said that the US were aiming at diplomatic means, but had not ruled out military action. In can only assume that sue to the commitments in Iraq and Afghanistan, this would be more of strategic missle strikes rather than a full scale invasion/liberation. What South Korea and China would make of military action by the US is another matter.

Personally I tend to agree with OPA and Dia's view on this, to a certain extent. The day we (in the global collective sense) built the first nuclear bombs, we opened a Pandora's box of trouble. In an ideal world no one should have any of them.

However, if the world is nuclear, its down right hypocritical of the current nuclear nations to condemn and critise North Korea for building one of their own. If I had been named as a central part of the Axis of Evil, and had seen what had happened to Iraq, I'd be building one as fast as possible.

From a british perspective, I'm tempted to right to Tony Blair, demanding an invasion immediately. After all, I seem to remember a couple of years back, we were assured that Iraq had WMD, capable of launching in 45 minutes, and that was a good enough reason for invasion. Whats the difference with North Korea? Aside from the fact we're virtually certain NK acually doeas have the means to create a nuclear explosion, and were not basing our decision on a 'sexed' up intelligence report, I mean. Hell, we can even go so far as to call the opperation North Korean Freedom, and pretend we actually gave a toss about the North Korean population.
 
Namyeknom:
Hmmm, interesting. Quite the hornets nest.

The only way I can see sanctions working, is if the whole world effectively cuts NK off, no more aid of any kind. Whether the international community has the will to sit back and watch the NK population strave is debatable.

The US ambassador has said that the US were aiming at diplomatic means, but had not ruled out military action. In can only assume that sue to the commitments in Iraq and Afghanistan, this would be more of strategic missle strikes rather than a full scale invasion/liberation. What South Korea and China would make of military action by the US is another matter.

Personally I tend to agree with OPA and Dia's view on this, to a certain extent. The day we (in the global collective sense) built the first nuclear bombs, we opened a Pandora's box of trouble. In an ideal world no one should have any of them.

However, if the world is nuclear, its down right hypocritical of the current nuclear nations to condemn and critise North Korea for building one of their own. If I had been named as a central part of the Axis of Evil, and had seen what had happened to Iraq, I'd be building one as fast as possible.

From a british perspective, I'm tempted to right to Tony Blair, demanding an invasion immediately. After all, I seem to remember a couple of years back, we were assured that Iraq had WMD, capable of launching in 45 minutes, and that was a good enough reason for invasion. Whats the difference with North Korea? Aside from the fact we're virtually certain NK acually doeas have the means to create a nuclear explosion, and were not basing our decision on a 'sexed' up intelligence report, I mean. Hell, we can even go so far as to call the opperation North Korean Freedom, and pretend we actually gave a toss about the North Korean population.
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*Poltsamaa mops up the cynicism dripping from the last post!!
 
Poltsamaa:
*Poltsamaa mops up the cynicism dripping from the last post!!
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:blush:

Inccidently, I'm waiting the coup, and the revelation that North Korea are selling weapons on the world market, so I can live out my Mercenaries fetish in real life.

edit - my apologies for the multitude of grammatical and spelling mistakes in my previous post. :duh: Lazy fingers...
 
Heh, I guess you can hope and pray that Al Qaeda gets some nukes to truly level the playing field, or at least just level everything!!
 
Just nuke 'em.

At least it would show Iran or anyone else that thinks they'd like to get hold of some the irony of building your own nukes.
 
Daimiaena:
@Zemonaya....being able to write an opera is considered by some to be an act of creative genius...(yes I know Insanity and genius are very close)....and is no real proof of insanity...
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The point was the opera's title. Juest like that, he has also put himself in all the Star Wars movies and in to many horror films.

Kim. Jong. Il. Is. A. Lunatic.

He's ready to watch his people starve rather than decrease the size of his army or change the internal system. He's ready to risk nuclear perdition of the world for his pride.

He's a paranoid, screwedup, powerlusting, egocentric, sociopathic, psychopathic lunatic.
 
Zemnaya Svoboda:
He's ready to watch his people starve rather than decrease the size of his army
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But does this make him a lunatic? Truly?

There are African leaders that condone the slaughter of hundreds of thousands and US Presidents that sit back and watch it happen.

Are they lunatics merely because they are willing to let people die?
 
As most countries are accepting the blast was less than one kiloton, much smaller than what most experts would expect a first generation bomb to be (between 10 and 20 kilotons), do you think we're dealing with a failed test, or an deliberate fake?
 
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