REGIONAL SECURITY

Former English Colony:
mr_sniffles:
In a way, influence makes the elected Delegates obsolete in terms of security... maybe a permanent Delegate, where the owner of said nation gives up the rights and lets the elected Prime Minister control it??
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:eyebrow:

All you're doing is bringing back the one power government if you remove the delegate as an actual person. Yes, frequent handovers are hard now on the delegate nations as the influence won't have a chance to accumulate for long periods of time.

Basically... True security would be easier with a fairly low endocap on everyone but the VD and D. The question is do we think it impinges too much on the rights of TNP members to keep them to a certain level? And secondary, does anyone *need* to be at such a high level?
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Personally I don't understand people who like to have powerful mid-range levels of endorsements but I am flat out against endorsement caps of any sort. In terms of the citizen, it drops the suspicion and duty onto them and not the government respectively. Also it places all citizens under a threshold of guilt, which is not constitutionally viable. (All charged are innocent until proven guilty.)

Quite simply there must be another way, and if we must choose between gaps in security or unadulterated political freedoms then let us be on the side of our inalienable rights!
 
mr_sniffles:
well actually Erastide brought up a good point that I did not consider, which is the role of influence during delegate handovers. For example if I was elected delegate and Kitabo decided to make a coup, kits influence would be higher than mine leaving the region open to invasion. Even if I was thirty endos over, I could not ban Kitabo because of his high ranking influence.

In a way, influence makes the elected Delegates obsolete in terms of security... maybe a permanent Delegate, where the owner of said nation gives up the rights and lets the elected Prime Minister control it??
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Which is why Delegates are supposed to do major endotarting. Now, I agree, sometimes it doesn't work, but if we have to result to an endocap, then by God, I hate to say this: Digi, we are no better than the Pacific and everyone else, we aren't really any better than Ivan! All we are doing is canceling out more and more of free speech. I thought this was a free region but if you guys want to turn into a regional dictatorship, do whatever the hell you want but if this is to pass, may it pass with the word "NO!" written on my fat butt! :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
 
Apollo-Industria:
Which is why Delegates are supposed to do major endotarting. Now, I agree, sometimes it doesn't work, but if we have to result to an endocap, then by God, I hate to say this: Digi, we are no better than the Pacific and everyone else, we aren't really any better than Ivan! All we are doing is canceling out more and more of free speech. I thought this was a free region but if you guys want to turn into a regional dictatorship, do whatever the hell you want but if this is to pass, may it pass with the word "NO!" written on my fat butt! :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
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AI... the new problem is that major endotarting may not be *enough*. For example, I didn't have UN status on FEC until right before I ran for delegate. If influence had been in place for a long time, I would have had signficantly less influence then those that had been in the region *with* endorsements. Endorsements increase influence more.

Yes, a delegate can endotart their heart out, but it doesn't change the fact that at the time of turnover, TNP is most vulnerable. And will become a *little* more vulnerable as time passes and we have more exchanges.

Sorry to say this, but a puppet nation takes some of the fun away from being delegate. It's not *you*.
 
hate to say this: Digi, we are no better than the Pacific and everyone else, we aren't really any better than Ivan! All we are doing is canceling out more and more of free speech.
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The very fact that we are having this discussion at all, and that any conclusion made here will be put to the community, shows that we are different from the Pacific. Emperor Blackadder has put it succinctly - over there, he is the region, and everyone else can go screw themselves. (my words, not his). The fact that he dissolved the Senate without a by-your-leave shows that.

We ARE different from that. And let us not forget it, or forget to celebrate it.
 
The very fact that we are having this discussion at all, and that any conclusion made here will be put to the community, shows that we are different from the Pacific. Emperor Blackadder has put it succinctly - over there, he is the region, and everyone else can go screw themselves. (my words, not his). The fact that he dissolved the Senate without a by-your-leave shows that.
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We are turning into what Blackadder is doing! The whole purpose of this is to establish a point of regional security when we already have it! And, erastide, since when is a feeder region invulnerable to outsiders, eh? If we can get Mopoker and Kitabo down to at least 190-200, we're okay... at least until another endotarter comes. But, hey! What do I care, right? What do I care if this region turns goes totalitarian? How are you going to enforce the law? Banning? Banning because people like someone else better than you? That is why we have elections!!! The only thing we have to fear is fear itself! Like I said: if we can diminish their endos, we will be safer. But if you guys want to establish this stupid endocap, go right ahead!

By the way, some of you do not know the meaning of "pursuit of happiness"! May I define it for you: ahem. The freedom to express oneself in any way. Now, I Agree that endotarting is not the best way, but endocapping isn't the best way to secure the region, either. Have anybody asked Mopoker or Kitabo on their opinion of this?
 
I think the already existing system, with the Security Council, works fine as it stands. I don't see why there is now a need for an endo cap. Having said that, there isn't anything wrong with this kind of discussion and I don't really see the need for the grandstanding nonsense in this forum- this is nothing like what is happening down in The Pacific and saying so doesn't really contribute to the discussion.


However, the issue which does arise IMO is whether we should have a "Delegate" nation, as otherwise each new Delegate will have less and less influence. Either than or additional requirements (having been in the UN for x amount of time perhaps) may be an idea for the Delegate elections.
 
A good idea. But how do we know a the new "delegate" will not change the password and never give it out again? THere is a flaw in every idea but less in the current one.
 
Good point. Now, a word from Osama:

Osama_Bin_laden.jpg


"If you look closely at the beliefs of Franco, you can see that, by decoding his propoganda, he plans to destroy the Earth we cherish."

But, back on topic. Erastide is saying that we must be invulnerable. HOW!!?? No region is invulnerable to an attack!
 
Apollo-Industria:
We are turning into what Blackadder is doing! The whole purpose of this is to establish a point of regional security when we already have it! And, erastide, since when is a feeder region invulnerable to outsiders, eh? If we can get Mopoker and Kitabo down to at least 190-200, we're okay... at least until another endotarter comes. But, hey! What do I care, right? What do I care if this region turns goes totalitarian? How are you going to enforce the law? Banning? Banning because people like someone else better than you? That is why we have elections!!! The only thing we have to fear is fear itself! Like I said: if we can diminish their endos, we will be safer. But if you guys want to establish this stupid endocap, go right ahead!

By the way, some of you do not know the meaning of "pursuit of happiness"! May I define it for you: ahem. The freedom to express oneself in any way. Now, I Agree that endotarting is not the best way, but endocapping isn't the best way to secure the region, either. Have anybody asked Mopoker or Kitabo on their opinion of this?
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First... No AI, we are not turning into the PRP/NPO. That would mean the delegate was a dictator with the power to do whatever they want. Noone's suggesting that. But the endocap suggestion *is* a suggestion to improve regional security. Does it restrict the "rights" of the people of TNP? Of course. We already do that by saying noone can pass the Vice Delegate in endorsements. Mopoker and Kitabo have *both* felt put upon already because of that restriction.

The problem that has arisen is that neither Mopoker nor Kitabo seem likely to run for delegate. But neither do they seem likely to leave. Therefore, they sit and gather influence continuously. And when our delegate changes (as is due to happen in about a month), the new delegate will have less influence then them. (Unless it's HS or Cisco that gets elected)

And in reality, the problem is not Mopoker or Kitabo (I would hope). The danger comes from someone that hasn't proven their restraint and sits right below the Vice Delegate and waits.
 
mr_sniffles:
"The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either." Benjamin Franklin.
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*Former English Colony notes we already restrict "freedom" in the name of security by having an endocap in the form of the Vice Delegate's endos. Mopoker expressed an interest in becoming delegate and was endotarting towards that goal. Yet he wasn't encouraged to go on, he was told to stop. We *don't* just accept anyone as delegate in TNP. We have elections. For security.

Quite honestly, I don't think TNP should do a damn thing. Yes, we're vulnerable. We're going to *stay* vulnerable because we believe in giving everyone a chance (and making sure noone becomes too stable). I think we have the power to deal with that without having to go through endocaps, placeholder delegates, staggered election terms, or making our delegate/VDelegate jump through any hoops prior to election.
 
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