REGIONAL SECURITY

Flemingovia

Flemingovia

TNPer
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In the light of the changes to NS rules, what changes should we be making, if any, to improve regional security?

Is it time for an enforced endocap, since the longer people have a high endocount, the more influence they gain?
 
Agreed, the endocap needs to be enforced, Leeway is okay, but if someone goes over, say ten or twenty over endocap, TRR they go, ASAP.

There's tyranny, and then there's simply protecting yourself. Until we can understand the full implications of the changes, we should play things safe, paranoid and anal.
 
From what I've read there seems to be absolutely no reason for increased dilligence. Our delegate still has considerable influence, even if someone began to pose a threat or in an unlikely situation where HS was displaced then HS can still eject them with a little damage to her influence.
 
I've suggested an amendment to require the Delegate to possess a certain amount of influence prior to election. That should help ensure that the Delegate is able to handle whatever is thrown at them.

I really hate to enforce an endo-cap, especially in a feeder region, but that may be a very necessary step to take.
 
So....

I can't really give you all the full picture, but I'll note that Ivan's been able to kick a *ton* of nations out of his region with little difficulty. So I don't think one or two troublemakers that are endotarting especially hard would be a problem for the delegate.

On the other hand, I think endo caps would be nice set somewhere between 100-200. Simply in order to allow the vice delegate and Delegate to keep themselves up easily and to pick out people that might be problems quickly.
 
OK. I never thought I would hear myself say this, because I was one who has fought against endocaps with a passion.

But I propose that we take to the RA a proposal that we set an immediate endocap of 150.

New times make for new measures.
 
Indeed. I agree with the endocap in this case, but I am curious, when a person who goes above the endocap, would the Delegate still need to go the Security Council, fill out all the forms, ect? I'm just trying to see if it would be constitutional to allow the Delegate to eject those above 150 without the authorization of the SC...

*Its been a busy night, forgive me...*
 
How about this:

In the Light of the recent rule changes in Nationstates, and the need for increased security and vigilance as a result, the RA hereby:

1. Sets an immediate endocap of 150 endorsements.
2. Instructs the delegate to inform nations of this endocap via the WFE.
2. Authorises the delegate to enforce this endocap, after due warning to nations concerned, without further reference to the RA or security council.
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Agreed, Cthul.

In the Light of the recent rule changes in Nationstates, and the need for increased security and vigilance as a result, the RA hereby:

1. Sets an immediate endocap of 150 endorsements to be in place until 31st May 2006
2. Instructs the delegate to inform nations of this endocap via the WFE.
2. Authorises the delegate to enforce this endocap, after due warning to nations concerned, without further reference to the RA or security council.
Click to expand...

That gives us 6 weeks to see which way the wind is blowing

Yad ho! Groja Ul!
 
So then, Mopoker and Kitabo are the only two that are a problem. Could I suggest instead of enforcing it on old people that are already above it, you enforce it on new people getting above the limit? It will be pretty easy to notice if Mopoker or Kitabo starts to gain. Mopoker hasn't endorsed anyone period for a long time. Kitabo has, but he could probably be persuaded/ordered to stop for awhile.

*Former English Colony giggles as she realizes she's getting close to the limit :unsure:

Yad ho, Groja UL! :w00t:
 
The VD's Endocount is the endo Cap. I thought this was the basic idea? Like a nice way of placing a cap. I haven't tarted because I have to keep a nice distance between me and the delegate. Soon as HS's count goes up....so will mine.
 
I thought that under the new system the biggest danger would come from old-time residents with a high endocount. In which cast Mpooker and Kitabo should come under the endocap.
 
I agree if we have an endocap, Mopoker and Kitabo (and everyone but the VD and D) should go under the endocap, but I think the two of them should simply be told not to endorse anyone else, and if their endorsements go up precipitously, they know they will be kicked out. Making them lose endos more than the natural drop seems a bit much. We're trying to be open here.

Mopoker's at 197, Kitabo's at 177. Cisco's at 227 and HS is around 300.
 
I am completely and utterly against this! The law already provides safeguards against nations with endorsements over the Vice Delegate. We already have protections against usupers!!!
 
I second the motion for the 150 endocap. People who are currently above it should be allowed to stay, but if they increase in endos, then they can be ejected.
 
Ator People:
I second the motion for the 150 endocap. People who are currently above it should be allowed to stay, but if they increase in endos, then they can be ejected.
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So not only are we making endorsement caps, we're playing favourites over who doesn't get banned?

Please... this isn't the answer!!
 
I am inclined to agree with Mr Sniffles on this one. If we have an endocap it should apply to all except the delegate and vice delegate.
 
i'm not all happy about endocaps. Funny. This thing kind of reminds me of martial law in a way. Anyway, a 150 endocap, for me (since I only have two endos) is alright.
 
Considering those two, I think 200 is more in order. It's still 2/3rds of the delegate, and you can't get 100 endos that fast without someone noticing in time.
 
mr_sniffles:
Ator People:
I second the motion for the 150 endocap.  People who are currently above it should be allowed to stay, but if they increase in endos, then they can be ejected.
Click to expand...
So not only are we making endorsement caps, we're playing favourites over who doesn't get banned?

Please... this isn't the answer!!
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Noone is playing favorites, more like trying to minimize the impact this would have on the region. Frankly, I think an endocap is unnecessary if a delegate does their job competently. But, if we're to have one, I don't think *making* the two people that have already been over the 150 cap for a LONG time deserve to be told to decrease their endos or else they'll be kicked. Told not to increase, yes, and their endos will decrease naturally. Mopoker's have been for awhile now. But mandated decrease? That's rather absurd.

If the delegate was given immediate power to kick/ban for anyone above 200, it wouldn't be a problem to have an endo cap of 200, assuming the delegate kept above 300 and was around from day to day to check endo levels.

We have raised the point about endocaps before, regardless of new rules or not. It's something that should *not* be a severe problem for people. There's no need to have more then 100 endos really except to say you can. Which I wholeheartedly agree with. But more than 200 is approaching a bit much. That's when it starts to impinge on regional security.
 
But doesn't the position of the Vice Delegate already ensure such protections? Without going back into old debates, we have to ask ourselves if an endorsement cap works. Against an organized assault, we would be setting a benchmark and a target for invaders. Neverminding that fact, isn't this overkill?

if it must be done, then I want it done with my extreme objection noted.
 
flemingovia:
OK. I never thought I would hear myself say this, because I was one who has fought against endocaps with a passion.

But I propose that we take to the RA a proposal that we set an immediate endocap of 150.

New times make for new measures.
Click to expand...
Take this back. I will always be against endocap for the following reasons:

1. I hate the Pacific and they had one
2. It limits freedom of speech
3. Forcing people into lowering their endos is also a bit of poverty

So, as far as I'm concerned, if somebody gets endorsements over the VD, they are a threat!

So, I stand with my friend and "boss", mr. sniffles.
 
It's perfectly reasonable, especially as a temporary measure. People here have worked too hard and too long to make it what it is today to lose it over this rule change.
 
Right now... our VD is just a bit above 200. Sirixis was up close to 300 by the end. Sorry to reveal a bit of my ignorance, but is there such a clause that being above the Vice Del is a crime that can result in ejection? At what point is it the Vice Delegate's fault vs. the person gathering endos?

I think we *should* resolve this at some point. Whether it's a number, some percentage of UNs in the region, percentage of Delegate endorsements, whatever.
 
I'm saying there's a difference between 'I hate your tie' and 'I am going to overthrow the government, here's my weapons cache, militia, and a few hijackers for some Boeing cruise missiles.' Attempting to steal control of the region from those duely elected is not freedom of speech, it's called a coup. Your arguement makes very little sense, as all what this is doing is temporarily giving our delegacy an extra layer of protection during a time of uncertianty. If anything, bringing it up will help us to refine our endorsement policy during the time of the cap.

And if you're against an endorsement cap, do please work on an alternative instead of saying you think an endocap is 'stupid'. It's not really contributing much to the debate here.
 
Former English Colony:
Right now... our VD is just a bit above 200. Sirixis was up close to 300 by the end. Sorry to reveal a bit of my ignorance, but is there such a clause that being above the Vice Del is a crime that can result in ejection? At what point is it the Vice Delegate's fault vs. the person gathering endos?

I think we *should* resolve this at some point. Whether it's a number, some percentage of UNs in the region, percentage of Delegate endorsements, whatever.
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YES!! the reason why we have a Vice Del is just that. It's already illegal for nations to gain more endorsements than the Vice Del!! Which why I think it's overkill...
 
Article 3, Section 2 of the constitution:
F - At all times during the term of office, the Vice Delegate shall have the second greatest number of endorsements in the Region which shall be exceeded only by the number of endorsements held by the Delegate. The Vice Delegate may be authorized, by a vote of the Security Council on grounds of regional security, to temporarily assume the Delegacy under NationStates procedures whenever the Delegate may be unable to act or is not recognized within NationStates as the UN Member with the greatest number of endorsements within the Region or for other similar reasons of regional security. Upon the subsequent formal posted declaration of the Delegate that he or she is able to again act as Delegate of the Region within NationStates, the Delegate and Vice Delegate shall take any necessary action to cause the transfer of the Delegacy back to the elected Delegate.
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I know that none of us are using this for nefarious means but I feel that this just goes too far. In fact, since the Vice Del must have the second highest endo count you could say its a pseudo-endo cap!! The means we already have are proper and balanced, allowing the citizens to gain a reasonable amount of endorsements while acclaiming the duties of the Del and Vice.
 
I'm saying there's a difference between 'I hate your tie' and 'I am going to overthrow the government, here's my weapons cache, militia, and a few hijackers for some Boeing cruise missiles.' Attempting to steal control of the region from those duely elected is not freedom of speech, it's called a coup. Your arguement makes very little sense, as all what this is doing is temporarily giving our delegacy an extra layer of protection during a time of uncertianty. If anything, bringing it up will help us to refine our endorsement policy during the time of the cap.

And if you're against an endorsement cap, do please work on an alternative instead of saying you think an endocap is 'stupid'. It's not really contributing much to the debate here.
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BULLSH*T!!! The Vice Delegate, as sniffles said, is the limit. We don't need an endocap, don't you see? We techncially already have one and his name is The Tresville Element!
 
The problem is, our Vice Delegate *wasn't* the 2nd highest during his term of office for quite awhile. Let's see.... Cisco actually passed Mopoker about 3/23. That was... a month and a half after elections? Granted, Cisco's had problems that he couldn't control in getting himself up there, but technically Mopoker was in violation for a *long* time.

*Anyone* sitting above 150 to 200 endos is a danger because it's going to take the Vice Del and Delegate time to get up there after the elections. Right now, what is the recourse if Mopoker decided to endotart again? Under Sirixis, he would have been able to go up to 300 no problem. But HS is only at about 300 and Cisco is in the mid 220s. If you base it off the VD, you're basing it off of a fluctuating number that will change between delegacies. And if someone is fine under one, they may not be okay the next time the delegacy changes. *that* is something I think we should avoid. And having some kind of set numbers will allow us to do that. Without the topics of "omg Mopoker is gaining" and "omg Kitabo is gaining".

Personally, I'd like to see the endotarting clause for before the elections amended to where the VD and Delegate have to endotart *before* the election to some set point. Perhaps above 100. That way, they'll build up their influence at the same time they'll reduce the time needed to handover. That also shows they're willing to commit the time and energy to keep their endos up.
 
So then what will be the responsibility of the VD other than being a steward for the Delegate? I agree these are not pleasant times but we can't make them even more unpleasant. Has anyone tried "reasoning" with Mopoker and Kitabo? Diplomacy before Military, boys.
 
:rofl:

Mopoker and Kitabo both have agreed to keep their endorsements down *specifically* because they've already been asked. The question isn't really about them (which is why I'd rather see them grandfathered in), but more about someone else that could go up to a fairly high level like them and just sit there.

They *will* gain influence with their endos and time in region, and when we have a delegate handover, the new delegate will be vulnerable. If the "bad" person has been there long enough and the delegate's nation has not, the delegate could potentially be uanble to kick them. *That* is why an endocap might be necessary.

Transfers between delegates are hard to pull of at high numbers. Somewhere in the 200s is where it's happened the past 2 times I believe. If the new delegate is unable to kick people that are close at that point, because they were underneath the *previous* VD, then we have a problem.
 
well actually Erastide brought up a good point that I did not consider, which is the role of influence during delegate handovers. For example if I was elected delegate and Kitabo decided to make a coup, kits influence would be higher than mine leaving the region open to invasion. Even if I was thirty endos over, I could not ban Kitabo because of his high ranking influence.

In a way, influence makes the elected Delegates obsolete in terms of security... maybe a permanent Delegate, where the owner of said nation gives up the rights and lets the elected Prime Minister control it??
 
mr_sniffles:
In a way, influence makes the elected Delegates obsolete in terms of security... maybe a permanent Delegate, where the owner of said nation gives up the rights and lets the elected Prime Minister control it??
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:eyebrow:

All you're doing is bringing back the one power government if you remove the delegate as an actual person. Yes, frequent handovers are hard now on the delegate nations as the influence won't have a chance to accumulate for long periods of time.

Basically... True security would be easier with a fairly low endocap on everyone but the VD and D. The question is do we think it impinges too much on the rights of TNP members to keep them to a certain level? And secondary, does anyone *need* to be at such a high level?
 
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