The West Pacific

The realities of NS gameplay are that the Delegate of a feeder controls the government system in the region!!

Our Delegate dictates what government system is in place, if they did not want it they could change it in an instant!! Hence my belief that the only true government of a feeder is the Delegate!! If the Delegate wishes to play along with the off-site "government" then all well and good, but it is their prerogative to do so!!

Once that simple aspect of NS gameplay is realised, the rest falls into place!!

As for the convention being closed when new ideas were raised, from the information i have read, the vote had been concluded and the Constitutional monarchy government style supported by the majority!! This information also informed me that once the vote was over, the work was to be done to facilitate the formation of the CM government!! It was at this point that members of the self-proclaimed "government-in-exile" decided to push their own agenda in contrast to that decided at the conference, hence it was closed!!

As for my conclusions, Sniffles, they are determined by the information I have seen in conjunction with the gameplay aspects of NationStates!! I do not consider my position extreme at all and the only connection with my work with the NPD is the belief that the Delegate of a feeder is the only true government authority making every feeder an authoritarian region!! Some in TNP may despise democracy but have it thrust upon them because a small group support it on this forum!! How is that any different to Eli thrusting his CM system on TWP based on the support of those at the convention?!
 
From what I've been able to read about the whole affair so far, it sounds so much like the rhetoric of the NPD that I find it boring.

Our Delegate dictates what government system is in place, if they did not want it they could change it in an instant!!
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I do not agree. During the time of our troubles, The NS Game mods made clear that what went on at off-site forums was outside NS glayplay jurisdiction as far as they were concerned. It is sufficient to say that TNP's system of government is not based on that quoted statement, and we have transitioned to a different system, where there is a elected delegate chosen at the off-site forum, and the head of government is not the Delegate.

If anything, the problems in TWP seem to be based on their failure to move to a government system not based upon the Delegate.
 
Grosseschnauzer:
If anything, the problems in TWP seem to be based on their failure to move to a government system not based upon the Delegate.
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The Second Constitution they had had a weak Delegate. ZetaOne got bored enough last spring at one point that he banned two of the highest-endorsed nations and most popular nations in TWP as a "test".

They were so afraid of a strong delegate that they were considering having a regularly elected delegate on the off-site forum (complete with term-limits and all) under a "Constitutional Monarchy" system. :eyebrow:

Edit: Oh, and Zeta is now a member of the "GiE". As are Biyah and Shasoria, the leaders of the WPD just a few months ago (and Biyah was the Minister of Security for the WPT originally, then he got spooked by PRP shadows).
 
mr_sniffles:
I hope you're right but the copy I read from the Meritocracy reads completely different.
http://merit.nosync.org/index.php?showtopic=2595

It reads more like the Council of Nations is just there to sit and create a fascade of public support.
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Ah, that would explain some things. That's the original version. Since then, an Council of Nations override has been placed in there and the oath has been removed. I didn't support the first one very much either, but now that the CoN actually has some power, I think it's really a pretty good constitution.

Here's the Current West Pacific Charter.
 
Grosseschnauzer:
I do not agree. During the time of our troubles, The NS Game mods made clear that what went on at off-site forums was outside NS glayplay jurisdiction as far as they were concerned. It is sufficient to say that TNP's system of government is not based on that quoted statement, and we have transitioned to a different system, where there is a elected delegate chosen at the off-site forum, and the head of government is not the Delegate.
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The Delegate can remove the forum address and replace it with their own which, according to NS rulings, would make the new forum the official one!! Therefore, no matter how many clauses you place in a consttiution to weaken the Delegate's role in the government, they are the ultimate holder of power in the region!!

So, your idealistic view tends to sink when it strikes the rocks of reality!! If your theory was viable, then there would have been no upheaval when the NPD came to power, afterall, it was only based around the Delegate position!! Ditto with TWP now!! So, if the Delegate had no power, why not just plough on under the old government system and ignore the Delegate entirely?! You couldn't because the Delegate does hold the ultimate power in the region!! Should they wish to use those powers there is little anyone can do about it!!

The government of a feeder is only the legitimate government if the Delegate allows it!! The fact that we elect our Delegate on an off-site forum makes no difference!! If Erastide decided she wanted to cling to the Delegacy even though someone elese was elected here in February, then she would hold the position for as long as she liked and do what she liked as far as regional government!!

You would be reduced to a bystander screaming for a return to the old government, but able to do nothing to ensure it happens!!
 
All NS gov'ts are at the mercy of the Delegate and/or Founder. In non-feeder regions, the delegacy could probably easily be regained if a rogue delegate occurred, due to rules about the number of ejections allowed and the possibility of defenders being about to push the count up and over the rogue delegate.

But feeders are in the unique position where the Delegates *have* to be elected by natives. There's really no other way to become delegate. Therefore, you are allowed to kick a certain percentage of the natives and leave them on the ban list. So yes, I could kick *all* members of this offsite forum from the region, leave you all on the ban list, and the mods would do nothing. I could easily kick the top 10, 20, 30, 40, even 100 endorsed/tarted people and the mods would do nothing.

Truly, the reason we have our region back is because IP/Cathyy decided to resign from the delegacy. They could probably have kept the region indefinitely by simply TGing nations and endoswapping while kicking anyone else out. And yes, we could hold a complete offsite government where everyone played and had voting and such, but no newbies would see it, and we'd be restricted to the status of recruiters in our own region.
 
So Polts are you saying that though we have options to limit these actions we should do nothing anyways?

Disease and death will always occur so we should do nothing to stop it? We have nuclear weapons, why only hold them why not set them off? If a person is borne to die then why not kill them all at birth?

Do you still support what the Moldavi regime set out to do? Do you feel it is now your responsibility to turn it back to how it was? To sadistic powerplays just for the sake of?
 
Russo-Princepolis:
mr_sniffles:
I hope you're right but the copy I read from the Meritocracy reads completely different.
http://merit.nosync.org/index.php?showtopic=2595

It reads more like the Council of Nations is just there to sit and create a fascade of public support.
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Ah, that would explain some things. That's the original version. Since then, an Council of Nations override has been placed in there and the oath has been removed. I didn't support the first one very much either, but now that the CoN actually has some power, I think it's really a pretty good constitution.

Here's the Current West Pacific Charter.
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Well I'm officially cut off from registering in the forum, would you mind doing a cut and paste for us?
 
mr_sniffles:
So Polts are you saying that though we have options to limit these actions we should do nothing anyways?
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No, i am saying you do not have options to limit these actions!! By all means put fancy clauses in the constitution but ultimately they do nothing if a Delegate wishes to "go rogue" or change the government system of the region!!

Disease and death will always occur so we should do nothing to stop it? We have nuclear weapons, why only hold them why not set them off? If a person is borne to die then why not kill them all at birth?
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Mmmmkay!!

Do you still support what the Moldavi regime set out to do?
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What exactly did the "Moldavi regime" set out to do?! If it were to change the government of the region to a more realistic and workable model, then yes, I support that!! elements of that government have been incorporated into this system so the NPD reign, whilst tumultuous did deliver some positives!!
Do you feel it is now your responsibility to turn it back to how it was?
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It is my responsibility to post my ideas and work with others on theirs!! Same as anyone else's!! Do I have a goal as far as government structure, of course..most people do!! The Constitution we now have is a reactive one hell bent on preventing the unpreventable...a rogue Delegate!! Over time and through the right channels hopefully this will change and we will develop a government system that is diverse and allows true competition for government office!!

To sadistic powerplays just for the sake of?
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Politics is about power plays!! Your calling for our region to tell TWP how their government should be run is a power play!! If you do not want to see powerplays then perhaps you need to find another game or another region with a more homogeneous mindset!! Powerplays are very rarely for the sake of, but to further a groups ideas in a region using the resources available to them!! Just because you do not agree with the objectives of said powerplay does not make it sadistic!!

Perhaps, as you seem unwilling to look at what myself and Eras have posted with regards to the Delegate situation, you can point out to me the measures that could prevent a rogue Delegate and how they would work?! Taking into account that the off-site government is a WFE edit and a few ejections away from oblivion!!
 
Grosseschnauzer:
Whether one wants to view the Cabinet review clause as being triggered by a separate petition as to the act of each individual Minister (and the Prime Minister) who participated in the action, or by a single petition as to the same group as a collective body, to me is immaterial.

It still results in the availability of that review process as to that Cabinet action, and still results in the availabililty of a review referendum of the registered voters as to the action.
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As a technical point, this is good to know.


Personally, I believe that the Cabinet Review should not be used for such purposes. My own reasoning is as follows: if the Cabinet did not even address the issue of TWP, then by default we would also remain neutral and in that case there would be no "decision" to question. This kind of foreign policy statement doesn't seem (again, to me) to be a concrete "decision" on the same level as a RV application decision where a Minister has to take a decision one way or another. In this case, the Cabinet did not even have to issue a statement regarding the official TNP position..

Of course, that is my own opinion and sniffles -- the CJ's post should be informative for you.
 
Poltsamaa:
mr_sniffles:
Thanks Poltsamaa, that was all I wanted to hear you say.
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Glad to have been of assistance!! You sure wanted to hear me say a lot!!

I take it you cannot answer my question?!
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I'm not here to trade potshots with you Polts. I now know everything I need; your unwavering support for Moldavi's tactics and your belief in his positive influence on us and how you feel we've strayed from his enlightening beliefs. Now it's up to the voters decide come election day.

I'm here to try and canvas the public support in denouncing the WPT and their recent actions. The delegate's mandate was only to oversee concom3 which he illegally shut down. Since your cabinet has not issued an official statement, then I can't really petition anything.

the CJ's post should be informative for you.
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Do you mean Grosse's post in this thread?
 
I mean his post about what can be done a la Cabinet Reviews.

Something that would allow you to take action if you believe it needs to be taken.
 
mr_sniffles:
I'm not here to trade potshots with you Polts. I now know everything I need; your unwavering support for Moldavi's tactics and your belief in his positive influence on us and how you feel we've strayed from his enlightening beliefs. Now it's up to the voters decide come election day.

I'm here to try and canvas the public support in denouncing the WPT and their recent actions. The delegate's mandate was only to oversee concom3 which he illegally shut down. Since your cabinet has not issued an official statement, then I can't really petition anything.
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Is that really what I said?!

Anyway, the cabinet statement will be post shortly so you are welcome to start a petition once it has been released!!

And perhaps if you could answer the question I asked it might make you think about the reality of the game rather than the fantasy world you currently inhabit!!
 
Everyone please calm down. This is a political debate forum, not a brawling match.

Mr. Sniffles, the statement has been posted. As Polts said, you are now free to petition against it or whatever it is you want to do.

*Hersfold goes to stand in the doorway
 
Speaking personally, my sympathies in this situation are with the Government in Exile in the TWP. However, speaking for this region I would be unlikely to support a petition such as Mr Sniffles has suggested. I believe that neutrality is the best course for our region at this time.

However, the clauses in section III of our constitution seem to make it clear to me that Mr Sniffles should have the right to call the actions of the cabinet into question by means of a petition.

I would urge everyone to hold off the aggro until we actually get a petition posted.
 
If a petition goes up, the discussion thread (as Grosse suggested) should be moved somewhere readily accessible to all RV's.

In the meantime, the general tone of these posts have been declining overall. If some newbie came in here and read this thread, I shudder to think what s/he would think of the political discourse here in TNP.
 
wizardofoz01:
In the meantime, the general tone of these posts have been declining overall. If some newbie came in here and read this thread, I shudder to think what s/he would think of the political discourse here in TNP.
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*Hersfold silently nods his head from his post at the doorframe.
 
If I can be convinced that debate could be kept civil, I would consider supporting a review petition simply to have the issue come before the registered voters and hold it during the elections. (That would most likely stimulate turnout, wouldn't it?) But TNP does have a history of getting emotional and passionate at times when discussing constroversial matters, so that course of action gives me pause. On the other hand, a vote on the question would likely establish the region's definitive postion on the issue, and voting on it during the election might be in the region's long term interest.
 
IMHO, the best course of action is to remain neutral, hope for the best, prepare for the worst, and keep a level head about the matter.

Make love, not war but be prepared for both.


R
 
At the risk of being told that I am 'off topic', I have to say that the present situation in TWP is entirely of their own making. The spark which ignited the whole sorry affair was the creation of the ill fated 'The West Pacific Dominion' by Bijah with support from ZetaOne and others in government. This was the first serious error. The second serious error was putting TAO in charge of anything. He was primarily responsible with the connivance of Lanier of 'forgiving' the traitors and allowing them to return, and allowing Eli from The Meritocracy to be in charge of unifying TWP. Now you see what has happened! Eli has removed any competitors and imported his friends from The Meritocracy and The Pacific. Now you have the disgrace of the two people who started everything rolling, Bijah and ZetOne running 'The Refuge' and the 'government in exile'! Well, it's like the kettle calling the pot, black! Who on earth would want a government run by Bijah and his side-kick Zeta-One? The last time Zeta-One was Delegate, he had to give it up because he kicked-out a number of members in a 'practice' to show-up defence weaknesses....that's the reason he gave! Bijah just wants to be in charge, but unfortunately his temperament is quite unsuited to any post of high responsibility. Now TAO has left the game completely, because of personal insults from various sources and 'dirty tricks' not least from ZetaOne, who has proved himself extremely untrusworthy. There are a few 'decent' members still in TWP and other's have left the region, but TWP will never be the same again. Just because TWP was experiencing a lull in participation, some members thought they could improve the situation by taking actions without asking the membership. Well now they have the participation, but they have lost TWP! I regret that is it, and who is the only person from the original TWP still smiling? Well it's old Lanier himself....mister no.1! :lol:
 
mr_sniffles:
Russo-Princepolis:
mr_sniffles:
I hope you're right but the copy I read from the Meritocracy reads completely different.
http://merit.nosync.org/index.php?showtopic=2595

It reads more like the Council of Nations is just there to sit and create a fascade of public support.
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Ah, that would explain some things. That's the original version. Since then, an Council of Nations override has been placed in there and the oath has been removed. I didn't support the first one very much either, but now that the CoN actually has some power, I think it's really a pretty good constitution.

Here's the Current West Pacific Charter.
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Well I'm officially cut off from registering in the forum, would you mind doing a cut and paste for us?
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Happily :)

The West Pacific Charter

Article 1 – The Executive

1.1 The Delegate is the Chief Executive authority in The West Pacific, and shall also bear the title of First Minister.
1.2 The powers of the First Minister include
1.2.1 Commander in Chief of the military.
1.2.2 Negotiation, ratification, and renunciation of treaties and alliances, declarations of war, and conclusions of peace.
1.2.3 Appointment and removal of Members of the Council of Ministers as outlined below, as well as additional Ministers as needed.
1.2.4 Veto authority over all acts of legislation.

Article 2 – The Legislature
2.1 The Council of Ministers (COM)
2.1.1 Composition
2.1.1.1 First Minister
2.1.1.2 Minister of the Interior
2.1.1.3 Minister of Foreign Affairs
2.1.1.4 Minister of Justice
2.1.1.5 Minister of Defense
2.1.1.6 Minister of Security
2.1.2 The COM shall sit at the will and pleasure of the First Minister.
2.1.3 The COM may initiate legislation.
2.1.3.1 The COM shall have power to assist the Delegate in raising a military to provide for the defense of The West Pacific.
2.1.3.2 The COM shall have power to assess applicants from nations new to The West Pacific for eligibility to serve in the Council of Nations or other capacities.
2.1.3.3 The COM shall have power to compose a Judicial Code for The West Pacific, and by further legislation, to keep the same current, to meet the needs of unforeseen situations. However, there shall be no bills of attainder, nor ex post-facto laws.
2.1.3.4 In the unfortunate event of treason, incompetence, or dereliction of duty, the COM shall have power to impeach Justices and members of the Council of Nations.
2.1.3.5 The COM shall have power to make all laws that shall be necessary and proper for the maintenance of security and happiness in The West Pacific.
2.1.3.6 Every order, resolution, or vote passed by the COM shall be presented to the First Minister for his or her acceptance or veto.
2.1.3.7 The COM shall review and debate suggestions sent from the Council of Nations and either accept or reject said suggestions for the consideration of the First Minister.
2.2 The Council of Nations (CON)
2.2.1 The CON may pass resolutions that serve to inform the COM of the opinions of the former, and may offer legislation to the COM for the latter’s acceptance or rejection, and subsequently to the First Minister for his or her acceptance or veto.
2.2.1a The CON may override the Veto of the First Minister via a 2/3 supermajority.
2.2.2 Membership in the CON
2.2.2.1 Residence in The West Pacific
2.2.2.2 Population of at least 100 million
2.2.2.3 At least four weeks of activity on the offsite forum, with an average daily post count of at least 0.5
2.2.2.4 The nation must have signed the Oath of Loyalty, which reads, "I (nation) hereby swear to do my utmost to protect The West Pacific, to serve her needs and make her a glowing gem among nationstates. I hereby swear not to take up arms against the government, nor to pass information to foreign governments. I agree to comply with all endorsement levels as set by The Delegate and will not aid or abet her enemies."

Note: This is exactly as it appears on the TWP forum.
 
What an odd document........


1.2.3 Appointment and removal of Members of the Council of Ministers as outlined below, as well as additional Ministers as needed.

2.1 The Council of Ministers (COM)

2.1.2 The COM shall sit at the will and pleasure of the First Minister.

2.2.1a The CON may override the Veto of the First Minister via a 2/3 supermajority.
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Which brings it all back to:

2.1.2 The COM shall sit at the will and pleasure of the First Minister.
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What an interesting system - if the First Minister doesn't like the result of a COM vote, he just removes them under 2.1.2 and then appoints ministers that will do his bidding under 1.2.3. :blink:

Where have I seen this before? :blink:
 
Although I am relatively new to the North Pacific, I have a grasp of the situation at hand and I seriously believe that it is indeed the mission of our region, as it is the mission of every democratic society, to attempt to bridge the gap between free peoples by promoting democracy and actively supporting it.

I believe that totalitarianism in all its forms must be formally and publicly denounced by our government. It is only reasonable, although inter-Pacific military activity is not a wise pursuit.
 
As a democratic state, it is our responsibility to take action in such issues whether it be for the revolution or against it. A revolution is the uprising in order to improve the government. No nation should be shunned from his/her rights of democracy from an oppressive government. If we are to change this government, think of the possibility:
  • Democracy is more influenced
  • Less totalitarians in the world
  • Respect from the oppressed ones
So, why pause and think? The answer is clear: If the people are the revolution, we are the helping hand.

I also would like to quote the website/forum's motto:

Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength, Welcome to Room 101.

Not very convincing. We must establish a government where there is people over power; not power over people.

If you have a government where the people have no say, you will have ppower hungry citizens which results in revolution and for the government, a police state. Then the people are even more revolutionary which establishes unfair treatments, criminal convictions, and more bannings. A region that bans according to the government choice is a region that bans for power. A region that bans by the people's say is a region that bans for security. We must stop this totalitarian movement before it gets worse.
 
No nation should be shunned from his/her rights of democracy from an oppressive government
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That would be good...if one had a right to a democraticgovernment. WPT does allow TWP natives to participate in government and gives them a fairly large amount of power, no one has to date been denied membership to CoN is they met the requirements (which involve number of posts per day on WPTs forums, nation population and, of course, a TWP nation).

Anything you see where there is a blatant statements of dictatorship (like the "Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength" thing) is just Eli having some fun.

Then the people are even more revolutionary which establishes unfair treatments, criminal convictions, and more bannings
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The bannings have been few and temporary; for the most part the offender violated regional laws stating that no nation may have over 50 endos. Eli is in fact even being kind in regards to this law, allowing many nations to go over 50 but not too far over it (think of it like driving on the highway, the sign says 55 put most people do 65)

We must stop this totalitarian movement before it gets worse.
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I actually suspect its more likely become less totalitarian as time goes on.
 
I'm talking about in the future. Plus, the Delegate has too much power. It says the Delegate may veto anything and choose different ministers. They don't even listen to the consent of the governed. The worst part is, people like it. As long as they have a region to live in, they think it is okay. But it's not. If this type of government is to continue then may we adopt to it for if this government is right then we must be right. No? No. Because a free and democratic nation ensures equal rights. This is not the way TWP is handling things. So I say to you: what is a region with such a consent only by the governor rather than the governed?
 
So I say to you: what is a region with such a consent only by the governor rather than the governed?
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I would have to say that you give CoN far too little credit, they are the ones that have the real power (well, in governmental say) and they are the ones that approved the laws. Eli cant tounch CoN only CoM which is actually his own personal cabinet, Lazarus has a system just like.

But it's not. If this type of government is to continue then may we adopt to it for if this government is right then we must be right. No? No
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I am not saying this government is right for everyone, but if it works, why fix it? And if your going to say "lets overthrow WPT cause their a dictatorship!" then why not PRP eh? Do they not also have a similar government?
 
I have seen it and actually a more up-to-date version is here

Look, all I am saying is if WPTs government allows people so have a say in its happenings (which is does) I dont see what the problem is. And also if your going to denounce WPT might as well do the same for PRP, Lazarus, The RR, and TSP cause they too have some version of this system. If the people didnt like it all they would have to do is change it and since no one has joined CoN (which is more or less their RV or RA) with the express wish to do that then one can only assume that no one wants to.
 
Our business is our own security and the stability of our democratic government. I hate to break it to you, but the fact is that such a democratic government in a feeder is a rare fluke and cannot be viewed as, or expected to be the norm. The staunch democratism of this region was forged in the fires of literally a year of utter instability and repeated, exceptionally autocratic delegatoral take-overs.

Our government is not even on the firmest ground. We may be the stronger of the feeder democracies, but that doesn't mean very much. Too much pull in any direction can easily break down our hard-won democratic system. Enterring a fray, especially one such as that in TWP which we would be almost sure to lose would almost doubtless destroy the faith in our government both inside and outside of the region, and could result in major isolation from the world, extreme setbacks in growth of our power and, ultimately our ability to foster democracy, and decreases in our already woeful activity levels.

TWP has a government that works. It goes with the general ideas of which the region had been in favour and allows for some level of democracy while maintaining the powerful executive that, in most cases, is vital to maintaining the power, prestige, and activity of feeders.

It can't be said enough: TNP is a fluke among feeders. Our democracy and its resilience cannot be expected to be the norm, and indeed, for our own security of government, we must be careful in our actions abroad.
 
Our business is our own security and the stability of our democratic government.
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1. We will be securing a democratic government form an unstable totalitarian government.

2. So, if the Lexicon was being invaded, would you say the same thing? If the Lexicon turned into a totalitarian government, what would you say?

EDIT: Sorry, about that. Major effective typo.
 
Actually, the so-called "unstable totalitarian government" is really quite stable, and has a respectable (if, perhaps, not desirable in the eyes of many) level of democracy.

Not to mention that, even were those points you made accurate, you completely failed to integrate the rest of my above statement with them. Had you done so, you'd still see that intervention in TWP would be an exceptionally dangerous action for TNP to take.

The Lexicon has nothing to do with this discussion. Red herrings will not be necessary.
 
I have no wish to divert this discussion but The Lexicon is a Founder region, founded by 5 nations.

Essentially, what The Lexicon is or is not or might become is no-one's business but ours and our Citizens!

Hmm....maybe that ought to apply to The West Pacific too.
 
Cathyy:
I have no wish to divert this discussion but The Lexicon is a Founder region, founded by 5 nations.

Essentially, what The Lexicon is or is not or might become is no-one's business but ours and our Citizens!

Hmm....maybe that ought to apply to The West Pacific too.
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Which I believe is the stance the Cabinet has previously taken on this very matter.

So why are we still discussing this?
 
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