[R4R] Regarding Speaker St George's Decision to End Debate

Picairn

Soldier of the North
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Picairn
1. What law, government policy, or action (taken by a government official) do you request that the Court review?
Speaker St George’s decision to end debate on Delegate Halsoni’s report to the Regional Assembly in the Private Halls.

2. What portions of the Constitution, Bill of Rights, Legal Code, or other legal document do you believe has been violated by the above? How so?
Article 2 and 9 of the Bill of Rights, specifically the right to free speech and the right to be guaranteed the organisation and operation of governmental authorities on fundamental principles of democracy, accountability, and transparency.

3. Are there any prior rulings of the Court that support your request for review? Which ones, and how?
The Speaker’s power to end debate in the Regional Assembly was previously reviewed by the Court in two of its rulings, On the Speaker’s Power to End Debate and On the Use of the Speaker’s Power to End Debate, which establishes a precedent to examine the Speaker’s use of this particular power.

4. Please establish your standing by detailing how you, personally, have been adversely affected. If you are requesting a review of a governmental action, you must include how any rights or freedoms of yours have been violated.
Standing derives from my position as Court Examiner, as defined in Section 3.6, Clause 25 of the Legal Code: “The Court Examiner will have standing in all cases of judicial review brought before the Court.” Whilst I was not adversely affected by the Speaker’s decision, and thus my rights were not violated, I believe that citizen Blue Wolf II’s rights to free speech and guaranteed government transparency were reasonably violated by St George’s decision to end debate on the Delegate’s report, which Blue Wolf was discussing in the thread before it was shut down.

5. Is there a compelling regional interest in resolving your request? If so, explain why it is in the interest of the region as a whole for your request to be decided now.
The Speaker’s power to end debate in the Regional Assembly is a powerful tool to shape or control conversations surrounding the RA’s business. Given that the RA is TNP’s regional legislature with plenary powers to make laws and hold government officials accountable, the value of RA debates is integral to its functions and our democracy by extension, and therefore the Speaker’s authority to end debate should be carefully reviewed and evaluated by the Court to prevent abuses.

6. Do you have any further information you wish to submit to the Court with your request?
The Court previously upheld the Speaker’s broad discretion to end debate in its two aforementioned rulings, as long as the Speaker made their decision “in the best interests of the region.” However, there is a major caveat: those rulings only apply to controversial proposals that provoked unhealthy debates and would have violated the Constitution and Bill of Rights if ratified, according to the Court’s own review. The five criteria which the Court used in its second ruling do not apply in this case, since the Delegate’s report was not a proposal nor did it result in an unconstitutional or illegal one. Therefore, the questions standing before the Court are:
  • Does the Speaker’s power to end debate extend to non-proposals, such as government reports and discussion threads unrelated to any proposal or law, and therefore would not have any actual legal consequences?
  • Did Speaker St George act in the best interests of the region when he decided to end debate on the Delegate’s report? Citizen Blue Wolf was exercising his right to free speech by discussing the contents of the report in its thread, and he did not propose an illegal or unconstitutional proposal. His speech, while perhaps controversial, does not meet all five criteria that the Court used in its second ruling to affirm the Speaker’s power to end debate.
  • If the Speaker’s power to end debate also applies to non-proposal threads, do they have broad, unlimited authority in this area as well, or are they limited by a certain principle or guideline?
 
The Court accepts this request for review, and I will serve as the Moderating Justice. The Court recognizes @St George as respondent.

At this time the Court will accept briefs from any interested party, until five days from this post.
 
Given that the action took place in the Private Halls of the Regional Assembly, can the court advise to what extent the contents of that thread can be referred to in briefs?
 
I understand there is a concern about running afoul of the Espionage or Intrusion provisions in the Criminal Code by openly discussing the contents of the Delegate's report from the Private Halls. I would note three facts that are plainly knowable and verifiable for anyone reading the Legal Code or following RA discussion on this topic:

1)The Private Halls are not contemplated in the Legal Code or Constitution. This section of the forum is organized according to the RA and the Speaker's preferences.
2)The Delegate provided the report to the RA in the Private Halls and has specified that the Court Examiner was authorized to file this Request for Review so long as no specifics of the report were included.
3)Espionage and Intrusion require that the sharing of the information is not "legitimately sanctioned by the entity the information is gathered from." It must follow, then, that if legitimate sanction were provided, the report could be discussed in briefs related to this review.

Based on these public facts, I would submit that the easiest way to avoid any concern as far as these crimes are concerned is for the Speaker and Delegate to either permit the thread to be moved out of the Private Halls section, or to clearly permit in this thread any interested parties to utilize the information in the report and the related discussion in any briefs submitted to the Court. The ball is in your court, so to speak.
 
The authorisation given to the Court Examiner extends to all parties interested in filing a brief. Mentioning the report is fine, but specific contents should not be shared outside of the Private Halls.
 
The authorisation given to the Court Examiner extends to all parties interested in filing a brief. Mentioning the report is fine, but specific contents should not be shared outside of the Private Halls.
I concur with the Delegate on this matter.
 
Given the continuous threats the Delegate has made over Discord against people making arguments he believes are "classified", a nebulous definition he refuses to clarify , I seek legal remedy from the Courts.

What guarantees do we have that any legal briefs being made in good faith will not be wrongly charged as a crime? Are Regional Assembly members able to make a brief without the sword of malicious prosecution being held over them?

I request a suspension of deadlines until the court can give guarantees of safety for good faith briefings.
 
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I would like to note that I had a brief discussion with admin and we may be able to accommodate this matter without the need for quite so much caution. If the Private Halls exist, why not a Court equivalent? I have had a new section of the Court subforum created to be used for more sensitive matters that pertain to the citizenry and not the general public. That ought to allow for broader briefs and eliminate the risk of accidental violation of the criminal code.

EDIT: This thread has now been moved to the secure courtroom, visible only to citizens. Consequently, it is a space no different than the Private Halls and therefore all parties should be able to speak freely and use the content of the report if they feel it is germane to their arguments.
 
I beg forgiveness for the half ass nature of this brief, but I am sure the court can see my point without a long winded legal break down of everything.

My brief directs the court's attention to the various cases in which the Court has ruled and established that Freedom of Speech is not absolute and that there can be situations where reasonable regulations can be placed.

Particularly,


In each of these cases the court ether approved of compelled speech , restricted speech, or prohibited speech with reasonable guardrails.
 
I imagine the court will be looking at it anyway, but just for the record, I submit the post where the decision was made and the reasoning contained within.


I would also take the time to comment on the test laid out in Ruling 39 (On the Use of the Speaker's Power to End Debate) and the use of the test in the request for review. In Ruling 39 the court opined:
This is not a precedential, exhaustive list of instances where a Speaker is well within their rights to block a debate or vote, and the Speaker's Office is not obliged to use or refer to it for any future issue
I did not use the test to make my decision, nor do I believe it should be the first and last destination for a Speaker who feels obligated to use the powers laid out in Rulings 16 and 39. That being said, I find the decision does pass several of the tests laid out in Ruling 39, where those tests are applicable:
  • Controversy and Flammability: The entire discussion is something that has gone on for years both on these forums and especially in Discord, where entire channels have been taken over for hours or even days with highly inflammatory statements and intentional trolling by one or multiple people involved. Several of those involved have been given informal moderation warnings at times. Even as I type this, the Regional Assembly Private Halls channel is involved in the latest episode of this melodrama, despite important business being before the Assembly. Given the time, resources and strain continued discussion of the report takes on the region, the decision to end debate was warranted and thus it passes these elements of the test.
  • Merit and Viability: The majority of the region seems to have given a collective shrug to the release of the investigation, beyond those thanking the Delegate (and administrators) for the release, a number of questions asked by myself, and then the same tedious, unfruitful and damaging kind of arguing that has hijacked the time of so many over the many, many months this has gone on. There is nowhere else, really, to go with the information that was released. The people involved on both sides cannot be prosecuted for actions they took or conspired to take, either because those actions were not illegal at the time, or that the laws in force - indeed the Constitution by which my and your power, obligations and responsibilities are granted - today were not in force at the time. Given that the avenues to further action and the clear lack of merit involved in further discussion of this fourteen year old conspiracy, the decision to end debate thus, in the opinion of the Speaker, passes both of these elements of the test.
  • Legality: This is the only part of the test that I would say could not be directly applied the decision I took, though given that Ruling 16 did not firmly define the limits of the legality element of this test, a more imaginative advocate than I could potentially find how it does meet it.

    Discussion of the issue the report lays out continues even now, even in venues where the Speaker does exercise the power to shape what gets discussed. It could also continue in other venues not subject to the Speaker's powers. I could not, as Speaker, end discussion on what is contained in the report on the #citizens-chat channel on the Discord, for example. Given that other venues exist to debate, even if it isn't in the Regional Assembly, I do not believe my decision curtailed or infringed upon Blue Wolf II or anyone else's freedom of speech as defined in the Bill of Rights.
 
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Acknowledging it took us some time to come up with the solution to the problem, and the fervent request to halt progress until it was resolved and his own role in the matter, I am specifically alerting @Blue Wolf II that it is my intention to close the briefing period by Friday at midnight. I am open to a further extension provided you or any others need the time for briefs they may be working on, but I will need to see some kind of response from you. Otherwise the deadline will remain Friday.
 
Prior Rulings:
As it pertains to the case at hand, the prior rulings deal with measurably different cases. One deals with the Speaker shutting down debate on a blatantly illegal proposal that had already provoked some amount of action from forum moderation & the other with a self-admitted silly proposal that the Speaker chose to block receiving a vote. The Speaker's actions in both cases were deemed as being within their legal authority (and not in violation of any nation's particular free speech rights, as balanced against the general regional interest), particularly so far as the Speaker has fairly broad authority to manage the Regional Assembly as they see fit. However, the case at hand does not deal with a proposal, but rather a report from the Delegate regarding investigation of previously secret sub-forums related to regional security. This presents a notable issue in comparing it to the prior incidents - to borrow from the comparison between the prior cases used in ruling #39, the debate at hand would seem to broadly satisfy first two points, being at it was a somewhat controversial subject with some amount of historical (light) moderation action to it. Differing from those cases, this one is not one in which either of those conditions was much satisfied by the particular thread the Speaker closed for debate - it has been a subject of controversy for nigh 14 years and the associated moderation action was similarly diffuse. Regarding the other three criteria mentioned in ruling #39, I will differ from the Speaker in noting that all of them are listed in reference to a proposal - merit/viability/legality are not relevant issues in this instance, as there is no proposal being debated.

Dual Use of the Private Halls:
The above is not necessarily indicative of limits on the Speaker's powers of course - a debate about the what should be recallable offenses without reference to a current incumbent to do it so would easily fall within the Speaker's ability to limit debate if that debate thread had degenerated into an unproductive mess, despite the lack of any attached proposal to it. What is notable is that the debate at hand was in no way attached to any particular proposal, but rather the Delegate making an informational notice to the citizens of the region in the only forum space reasonably available to them that still afforded legal protections against sharing the information outside the region. This is not a small difference from the prior cases, but reflects a general use case of the Private Halls. Purely in the threads in the sub-forum that haven't been archived, besides specific private Regional Assembly proposals/debates (on treaties, VD checks denials, and so forth) it has been used for: assorted NPA announcements (notably the pinned only pinned threads) but also such things as an explanation as to an officer demotion, information regarding treaty changes that don't require citizen approval, an explanation of a Minister's resignation, and a question for the Vice Delegate. All of these are relevant to the Regional Assembly in general, but primarily in so far as the citizen body and membership in the Regional Assembly are identical by nature; the last example in particular is in regards to an entirely different government body. The placement of these threads in the Private Halls can be put down primarily to either a lack of citizen-only spaces for the relevant government bodies and/or traditional convenience of consolidating private citizen debates as such into a single sub-forum. The usage of the Private Halls as a general purpose secure debate and discussion area is well-established, even when the debate/discussion is itself not especially related to the constitutionally defined business of the Regional Assembly.

The Business of the Regional Assembly:
It is worth noting general business of the Regional Assembly. As defined in the Constitution, the Regional Assembly is composed of all citizens and deals with the passage/amendment/repeal of laws, recall of government officials, other specifically defined powers and/or checks on the Delegate's power or that of other government officials, and as who elects all government officials. The last of those is especially useful in reference - if the Regional Assembly as a body is who elects government officials that would suggest that then the Speaker theoretically holds discretionary power over elections where there are no specific rules. This is logically absurd and to my knowledge not borne out in our regional history. It is reasonable then to presume that the Speaker's discretion extend to the Regional Assembly when it is a legislature (or acts in a similar fashion, as is the case with recalls) but not when it serves as a synonym for the general body of citizens.

Conclusion:
Taken together, it is my opinion that the Speaker's decision to end debate in this case is outside their authority. The debate in question was not a legislative one but an informational notice to citizens from the Delegate (notably announced as being from the Delegate's Office) - indeed the exact same thread could theoretically have been posted in a private sub-forum in the Delegate's own forum sections, had such a sub-forum existed. This is not to suggest that such a private sub-forum be created for every government body (which would unreasonably spread out discussions and disclosures), but that the Speaker's powers over the Regional Assembly are to its existence as the regional legislature and not to its existence as a the general citizen body.
 
Should it please the Court:

As pointed out, Ruling 16. On the Speaker's Power to End Debate, did give broad "virtually unlimited discretion" for the Speaker to unilaterally end debates. However, Ruling 39. On the Use of the Speaker's Power to End Debate, then somewhat curtailed this unlimited discretion and established a non-exhaustive list of five standards which should be considered in order to end a debate: Controversy, Flammability, Merit, Viability, and Legality. The Speaker has already made his opinion known as why he believes his decision meets these standards specifically, and the Speaker seems to want to abide by these standards when executing his duties.

With that in mind, three specific standards were not properly met, that being of Controversy, Flammability, and Merit.

Controversy:
The topic in question, the possibly illegal creation of a "nongovernmental" forum created by members of the Administration team and others in order to address a possible coup threat, has been known to the public for over fourteen years. It's so old, any "new" information being disclosed there was primarily newer members rediscovering information about a long finished historical event. Nothing regarding the Delegate's rehashing of a near decade and a half old topic can be said to invoke "Controversy" in and of itself. Ruling 39 specifically set a standard that such examples need a certain knowledge of the topic "with the intent to provoke it further", something which the Delegate has explicitly denied multiple times and to which the Speaker has never addressed. Unless the Court or the Speaker can confidently speak to the state of mind of the Delegate that contradicts his explicit denials to create controversy, this specific standard was not met.

Flammability: While the conversation certainly got heated in the Discord, it did not rise beyond "informal warnings", mostly, if not primarily, by the Speaker himself. Additionally, those warnings were for violation of the declaration the Speaker had made restricting discussion to the forums, not due to specific inflammatory speech. Ruling 39 established a much higher bar to clear, with multiple formal warnings and "escalating or outrageous behavior ". No such warnings were handed out, and the conversation never went anywhere near the bar of "escalating or outrageous behavior" before the Speaker ended discussion.

Merit: The Speaker himself was very involved in the Discussion from the start and certainly believed that the topic of discussion had merit. He has expressed no reason as to why he believes that the discussion suddenly "lost merit" halfway through the conversation. If it truly did not have merit, it shouldn't have been allowed to continue for weeks before, inexplicitly, becoming Meritless.

Additionally, the Speaker, in his in-topic reasoning for ending discussion, seemed to focus primarily on the fact that a new post had been made in the topic a mere 5 days after the previous post, claiming "that discussion had petered out before it was revived in a way that I would say may be interpreted as being in bad faith". If commenting in a topic after the conversation being inactive for less than a week is a valid reason to end discussion, then the standards set forth by Ruling 39 are effectively invalidated, since that logic not only does not meet any of the five standards, but actively flies in the face of the logic that underpinned them as general standards. While the list for ending debate is non-exhaustive, the Speaker's given reasoning seems to be of exceptionally low quality that does not align with other rulings' bars of standard for ending debate. One can only speculate on how low the bar goes should this standard come to pass. If five days passing is considered "bad faith", isn't four? Or three? Or one? Where is the limit?

Lastly, in ending the debate, the Speaker denied me, specifically, the right to redress very exact grievances I had with governmental authorities. By ending discussion, and seemingly forbidding that topic of discussion from occurring within the Regional Assembly, I no longer have a legal platform from which I might petition the redress of these grievances, since the topic has been deemed by the Delegate as "classified" and therefore can not be spoken of outside of the Regional Assembly Private Areas, from which all discussion is now prohibited.


For the above-stated reasons, I believe that the Speaker, by ending debate mid-discussion without proper merit, was inadvertently in violation not only of pre-established standards for the Speaker's Office but also in violation of the Bill of Rights, Article Two, which states:
2. Each Nation's rights to free speech, free press, and the free expression of religion shall not be infringed, and shall be encouraged, by the governmental authorities of the region and its territories. Each Nation has the right to assemble, and to petition the governmental authorities of the region and its territories, including the WA Delegate, for the redress of grievances. The governmental authorities of the region and its territories shall act only in the best interests of the Region and its territories, as permitted and limited under the Constitution.

Specifically the violation was to the rights of "free speech" and "to petition the governmental authorities of the region and its territories, including the WA Delegate, for the redress of grievances" have been violated and I petition the Court for legal remedy.

I thank the Court for its' time
 
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Ruling of the Court of The North Pacific
In regards to the Judicial Inquiry filed by Picairn on the Speaker’s Power to End Discussion
Opinion drafted by Chief Justice Pallaith, joined by Justices Chipoli and Skaraborg

The Court took into consideration the inquiry filed here by Picairn.

The Court took into consideration the legal brief filed here by Dreadton.
The Court took into consideration the legal brief filed here by MadJack.
The Court took into consideration the legal brief filed here by Lord Dominator.
The Court took into consideration the legal brief filed here by Blue Wolf II.

The Court took into consideration the relevant portion of the Constitution of The North Pacific.

Article 2. The Regional Assembly
9. The Speaker will administer the rules of the Regional Assembly. Where no rules exist, the Speaker may use their discretion.

The Court took into consideration prior rulings by the Court here, here, here, here, here, here, here.



The Court opines the following:

On Standing
The petitioner is the Court Examiner, and enjoys universal standing for all questions before this Court. There is no question of proper standing in this case.

On Limits to the Speaker’s Authority
The Court has once again been asked to determine whether the expansive powers of the Speaker of the Regional Assembly have extended too far in their application as it relates to a discussion taking place in the Regional Assembly, this time in the assembly’s private halls subforum. On numerous occasions this Court has upheld broad and discretionary power for the Speaker, including upholding the Speaker’s right to discount embellished votes in On the Speaker’s Powers to Restrict the Format of Votes; establishing the Speaker’s right to unilaterally end debates as part of broad, virtually unlimited discussion, so long as the discretion is used in the best interest of the region in On the Speaker’s Power to End Debate; permitting the Speaker’s use of this power to include refusing a vote and deviating from standing procedures as they see fit, and establishing the Speaker’s obligation to end debate if they deem it in the best interest of the region in On the Use of the Speaker’s Power to End Debate; finding that this ability to deviate from standing procedures also applies to starting votes immediately without scheduling them in advance, or to schedule them to begin immediately, without providing time for objections in On the Speaker’s Power to Schedule Votes; and confirming that the Speaker may delegate or refrain from delegating any of their powers to deputies in On the Power of the Speaker to Direct Deputy Speakers. We have also found those powers contain clear limits, including the lack of discretion in extending the length of votes under the Regional Assembly’s rules in On the Speaker’s Power to Extend Voting Periods; and the lack of discretion in changing citizenship status outside of the explicit parameters of the Legal Code in the largely defunct decision On the Ability of the Speaker to Retract Citizenship. The Speaker’s power is broad and often surpasses any limits invented by the Speaker in their standing procedures, but the Regional Assembly can always curtail them by adjusting the Regional Assembly rules or the Legal Code. Outside of such explicit parameters, however, the Constitution resolves most conceivable scenarios in its provision providing for the Speaker’s discretion where no rules exist.

Most of these cases involved the Speaker’s management of votes in the Regional Assembly, and two were even explicitly concerned with the Speaker’s control over debate. But the case before us now is clearly distinguishable in nature, given it is unconcerned with an actual vote but solely concerned with discussion surrounding a government report to the region. And this report was provided to the Regional Assembly through its Private Halls, an area designated for more sensitive matters intended only to be considered by citizens of the region and out of the normally publicly visible area. This is typically reserved for discussions around military moves or treaties, but can also be where the executive brings diplomatically-sensitive or security-related matters. In determining whether the Speaker overstepped, we must determine if discussion alone in the absence of a vote is something the Speaker cannot or should not limit, and we must determine if the location the speech takes place in is truly under the Speaker’s domain.

On the Limits of Discussion
Essentially, the question before the Court boils down to whether the Speaker’s control of discussion to the extent it is forcibly stopped is compatible with citizens’ freedom of speech. We find that it is. Our previous rulings clearly contemplate scenarios where the Speaker may curtail speech in order to preserve other equally important rights which may be abridged if they do not take such action. These scenarios apply just as easily to general discussion as they would to a vote, even if such scenarios lack the possibility of further action that could have legal consequences. When acting in the best interests of the region, the Speaker may need to end discussion on a topic that, as in our previous rulings, meets the five criteria we previously laid out.

The discussion that prompted this review was controversial. It inspired very animated back and forth that was not constructive and kept the discussion going in circles. It was unproductive and did not bring anything new or valuable to the topic. It lacked merit due to expressing untrue and even slanderous sentiments that were repeatedly debunked. These assertions were also flammable. The lack of warnings or administrative action are not required for flammability to be achieved, but tempers and feelings definitely rose to higher levels as a result of the discussion. The discussion lacked viability, as there was no productive end to it or purpose to be achieved. A debate on a proposal will eventually lead to a vote or a lack of a vote, but there was no vote to come here. As far as this distinction goes, the matter of legality is irrelevant, as there was no proposal to change the laws.

In our previous ruling On the Use of the Speaker’s Power to End Debate, we observed that the Speaker blocking the proposal from going to vote rather than stopping the debate. This distinction may imply that had the Speaker taken the action of stopping the debate, our consideration would need to be different. This time the Speaker did stop the debate. In that prior case we observed the existence of procedural options even in the instance of a blocked vote. We feel such options exist in this scenario as well. There exist other areas of the forum outside of the Speaker’s direct control, and especially other avenues to speak, including the Regional Message Board and the region’s Discord server. It is trivial for citizens to engage in discussion in these areas where the Speaker cannot stop them. Unlike a vote, which can only happen under the Speaker’s purview, an idea or a topic can be discussed in any number of places, provided such discussion conforms with the rules of the environment in which it takes place. The Speaker cannot permanently muzzle anyone, because the Speaker cannot control all areas of the forum or the contours of a debate outside of the explicit spaces that are firmly within their domain. In the specific case before us, an actual proposal to change the law inspired by the Delegate’s report, or a general thread in the public area going over the matter (provided the one posting the thread did not directly go over the information deemed sensitive) in a broader, unspecific way; or a post on the Discord server’s citizen only channel, could have continued the discussion without interruption by the Speaker. As long as the Speaker operates in the best interest of the region and operates in good faith, as we have stated before, the Speaker ought to use that discretion appropriately. The fact it is not a discussion or debate leading to a vote is irrelevant, our prior test and the principles of the prior decisions still hold.

On the Private Halls
We consider it entirely reasonable for there to be some discussions or topics that cannot be confronted in a publicly-visible way, and that the government has an interest in limiting such topics to only the citizenry in the form of the Regional Assembly. This space can accommodate legislative or non-legislative motions, which would clearly still fall under the Speaker’s domain. The only difference is the specific area where the discussion is taking place, and so there is no reason to treat such scenarios differently. Even the concept of having a discussion independent of a related vote is something that could happen in the public area of the forum just as easily as the Private Halls. The fact that the space is private, then, does not change how the Speaker and their authority should be viewed. The only complication to this scenario is when the executive is using the space to host information that may be in its control and limited by its discretion. These things could just as easily be shared in the public area, with the same ownership and discretion on the part of the Delegate. But just as the Delegate has their own space to utilize and organize as they see fit, the Regional Assembly falls under the Speaker’s jurisdiction. We would also note the existence of a channel for the Regional Assembly in the Discord server, which serves the same function and currently is managed by the Speaker with more authority than other channels in the server. To remove all doubt, the Private Halls, despite being a natural place for the Delegate to host sensitive information to whatever extent they deem appropriate, are still clearly part of the Regional Assembly and therefore under the Speaker’s direction. If sensitive matters are being discussed, and information is tightly controlled, the two branches ought to cooperate in how the information is handled, but the setting is firmly the Speaker’s to manage, including directing discussion or shutting it down.

Holding
The Speaker’s power to end debate extends to debates that are unrelated to proposed legislative or non-legislative motions. The Private Halls of the Regional Assembly, and their analogue in the Discord server, are fully within the Speaker’s purview and all existing powers and authority the Speaker possesses apply no differently there than any other part of the Regional Assembly.
 
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