Outrage over WA Cult

[Darcania]

Following an incident with the WA Cult, whereby their Rule #2:

If any nation is caught refusing to endorse one of our own, we must all unendorse that nation unless that nation is involved in a transition of power of some kind and the region requires our endorsement of it.

has been found to apply not only to members, but non-members, I feel I must go public with the following:

The WA Cult seeks to bully and intimidate any who do not endorse all of their members.

This includes those who did not agree to the above rule, as many nations are non-members.

I signed on immediately, believing that Rule #2 only applied to members who agreed to it. However, an incident involving The Dictatorship of Freeion revealed that A Lost Soul, the leader of the WA Cult, seeks to bully and intimidate in an attempt to force endorsements. This violates Clause 4 of The North Pacific Bill of Rights:

The right to add an endorsement or withdraw an endorsement is a sovereign right of that Nation as a WA member.

The following is a transcript of several conversations I had over TG with A Lost Soul:

for both the cult and yourself i suggest unendorsing this asshole until he endorses back. He calls you a 'beggar' if you try to ask for it and then refuses to cooperate.

@Freeion

He doesn't look to be a member of the cult.

but rule 2 applies to those outside of the cult also

At this point, he, with the help of a few members who shall remain nameless, though I am saddened to say I was among them, managed to intimidate Freeion into endorsing the cult.

@Freeion is agreeing to endorse me, offer him to endorse him if he endorses you and see where it leads.
rule 2 really does help us intimidate nations into endorsing us, this is proof it works.

I'm uncomfortable with intimidating people into endorsing us.

then how would you like to word it

That it only applies to those inside the WA Cult.
Say "member" instead of "nation", turning it into "2. If any member is caught refusing to endorse one of our own, we must all unendorse that member unless that member is involved in a transition of power of some kind and the region requires our endorsement of it.

we will not be strong if we do not ever pressure people into endorsing us. if i made rule 2 what you want it to be rule 1 would be the same damn thing as rule 2.

I'll just let this slide, freeion will cave given time so there's no need to tear us apart over this. When We get bigger we'll have more of an impact though.

At this point, he changed the subject, and I didn't press the issue.

At this point, I let slip to a friend of mine what happened, and he encouraged me to report it to SillyString, our vice delegate. With her encouragement, I sent out the following PSA to every member of the WA Cult with the exception of A Lost Soul:

I am telegramming all of you because you are all members of the WA Cult.

I should note that, according to the strict language of Rule #2, non-members of the cult would have to be bullied into endorsing everybody in the cult if they fail to give endorsements upon being asked.

Because non-members did not agree to that clause, please do not apply Rule #2 to non-members, as it appears to violate the Bill of Rights of The North Pacific, and it's also mean, IMO.

I am currently talking to A Lost Soul about amending Rule #2 to only apply to non-members.

Thank you,
@Darcania

I then had the following conversation with A Lost Soul:

Hey, so, I've been thinking about Rule 2 of the WA cult. I'm worried that, since it seems to me to violate part of the Bill of Rights of TNP (looks to be clause 4, I think?), we may see the Delegate or others start banning us or something of the sort when they see what we're doing, especially if @Freeion tells someone what happened.

clause 4 is irrelevant. I'm not forcing them to endorse an official. If a cult member is a gov. official it's coincidence.

"The right to add an endorsement or withdraw an endorsement is a sovereign right of that Nation as a WA member."

sure, they also have the right to leave the party

we have the right to add and remove in gang-like culture as well. it's our "sovereign right"

Except they never joined in the first place. @Freeion isn't a member of the cult and never was.

And to your other TG, sure, we have a right to remove endorsements. But we're also bullying people into endorsing us, a.k.a. forcing them as best as people over the Internet are able to.

no force. they're not being threatened with anything other than losing endorsements.

Clause 4 protects non-endorsers form being ejected and that is all.

At this point, as per instructions from SillyString, and due to the fact that I don't know the laws of The North Pacific very well, I decided to go public with this. My hope, and SillyString's, is that public opinion and pressure will help stop this vile practice.

Thank you,

[me]

 

[St George]

And this is just one reason why the entire parties subforum needs purging.

Support the Purge the Parties Party 2016.

Or something.

 

[Syrixia]

This is appaling. I am leaving the Cult.

 

[RPI]

It is harrowing to know that this man has been doing this. I recommend no one else join this organization.

 

[Tomb]

I've alway supported TNP parties. They help individuals meet others who have the same interest as them, but I am sure that we can all agree that this has gone too far. If Freeion doesn't want to endorse someone, he has the right to do so. If this party wants to continue and have a good reputation, then I'd sincerely advice that you offer Freeion an apology for the actions and edit that clause for starters.

~ Tomb

 

[Wolfsea]

I'm withdrawing all endorsements except for those nations here.

 

[Darcania]

I'm withdrawing all endorsements except for those nations here.

I would encourage you not to punish those who were potentially not involved. There were only four people involved in the short campaign against Freeion, two of whom were myself and A Lost Soul. While it's your choice who you choose to endorse, I don't believe the entire cult should be punished solely for the actions of a select few. It is for this reason that I haven't divulged the other two who were involved.

 

[Wolfsea]

We, all of us, swore an oath when we became citizens. Even if these actions were legal on a mere technicality it still makes it dishonourable, if withdrawal of endorsement alerts those in the party (as I believe that few members were aware prior to your own warning) as to what has happened and the rest is left to their own conscience then I gladly accept any liability the courts may bring, should any nation wish to bring charges against us we will gladly take the day in court given and face whatever judgement is handed down. The endorsements will be restored once our trust that these nations act with honour and integrity is restored.

 

[RPI]

We, all of us, swore an oath when we became citizens. Even if these actions were legal on a mere technicality it still makes it dishonourable, if withdrawal of endorsement alerts those in the party (as I believe that few members were aware prior to your own warning) as to what has happened and the rest is left to their own conscience then I gladly accept any liability the courts may bring, should any nation wish to bring charges against us we will gladly take the day in court given and face whatever judgement is handed down. The endorsements will be restored once our trust that these nations act with honour and integrity is restored.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with you unendorsing anyone whom you choose to unendorse. That's a right given to all WA nations in TNP by the Bill of Rights.

 

[shadowbird712]

That's not a party. That's an attempted coup, really. I have not joined that cult, and I condemn A Lost Soul's actions.

As a matter of principle, I prefer not to align with any parties, and certainly not ones that use bullying tactics to gain power.

 

[A Lost Soul]

You will come to learn that this cult is constitutional and you crybabies will crawl back into your shells.

 

[RPI]

You will come to learn that this cult is constitutional and you crybabies will crawl back into your shells.

Forcing the members of this party to unendorse someone who refuses to unendorse you is not constitutional.

 

[A Lost Soul]

There is no force.

 

[RPI]

Err, sorry, using methods to try to force others not in this party to endorse you is not constitutional.

 

[Wolfsea]

You will come to learn that this cult is constitutional and you crybabies will crawl back into your shells.

Forcing the members of this party to unendorse someone who refuses to unendorse you is not constitutional.

Then we support a motion to bring this to the courts

 

[RPI]

You will come to learn that this cult is constitutional and you crybabies will crawl back into your shells.

Forcing the members of this party to unendorse someone who refuses to unendorse you is not constitutional.

Then we support a motion to bring this to the courts

I'd recommend against that for now. If A Lost Soul's actions continue, however, that may be necessary.

 

[Wolfsea]

You will come to learn that this cult is constitutional and you crybabies will crawl back into your shells.

Forcing the members of this party to unendorse someone who refuses to unendorse you is not constitutional.

Then we support a motion to bring this to the courts

I'd recommend against that for now. If A Lost Soul's actions continue, however, that may be necessary.

Then, when it comes, consider us in full support.

 

[A Lost Soul]

Err, sorry, using methods to try to force others not in this party to endorse you is not constitutional.

What do you define as force?

 

[A Lost Soul]

Mass-unendorse me all you want, you're using the philosophy of rule 2 just as much as the cult is.

 

[Syrixia]

Err, sorry, using methods to try to force others not in this party to endorse you is not constitutional.

What do you define as force?

He means that making it a rule of the WA cult is a breach of the rights of those who are in it and thus is unconstitutional. Freeion has the right to endorse whoever he wants.

And if you want to call us crybabies for upholding the constitution, then go make your own region that doesn't have a government and go wild. Here, we give people the rights to decide if they want to do something or not.

Welcome to freedom. Enjoy your stay.

 

[RPI]

Mass-unendorse me all you want, you're using the philosophy of rule 2 just as much as the cult is.

But we don't want your endorsement in exchange for our endorsements.

 

[Cormac]

This is pretty appalling. I'm glad I declined to join this when approached by A Lost Soul by telegram a few minutes ago, and I will be withdrawing my endorsement from him. Whether this kind of intimidation is legal or not, nothing compels WA nations of The North Pacific to endorse anyone, and A Lost Soul may in fact find himself on the receiving end of an also completely constitutional, privately undertaken unendorsement campaign.

I would also like to know who else was involved in this and if they, like Darcania, regret their involvement. If not, I'll be pulling endorsements from them as well.

 

[RPI]

This is pretty appalling. I'm glad I declined to join this when approached by A Lost Soul by telegram a few minutes ago, and I will be withdrawing my endorsement from him. Whether this kind of intimidation is legal or not, nothing compels WA nations of The North Pacific to endorse anyone, and A Lost Soul may in fact find himself on the receiving end of an also completely constitutional, privately undertaken unendorsement campaign.

I would also like to know who else was involved in this and if they, like Darcania, regret their involvement. If not, I'll be pulling endorsements from them as well.

I was a member of this but withdrew for other reasons. When I had heard of this behavior, I'm glad I left.

 

[Wolfsea]

This is pretty appalling. I'm glad I declined to join this when approached by A Lost Soul by telegram a few minutes ago, and I will be withdrawing my endorsement from him. Whether this kind of intimidation is legal or not, nothing compels WA nations of The North Pacific to endorse anyone, and A Lost Soul may in fact find himself on the receiving end of an also completely constitutional, privately undertaken unendorsement campaign.

I would also like to know who else was involved in this and if they, like Darcania, regret their involvement. If not, I'll be pulling endorsements from them as well.

No, if we do anything we do it through the courts.

 

[A Lost Soul]

Err, sorry, using methods to try to force others not in this party to endorse you is not constitutional.

What do you define as force?

He means that making it a rule of the WA cult is a breach of the rights of those who are in it and thus is unconstitutional. Freeion has the right to endorse whoever he wants.

And if you want to call us crybabies for upholding the constitution, then go make your own region that doesn't have a government and go wild. Here, we give people the rights to decide if they want to do something or not.

Welcome to freedom. Enjoy your stay.

You are free to leave the cult and remain in TNP, thus the freedom to leave the cult implies I'm not forcing you in TNP-terms.

 

[Syrixia]

Don't use that as a scapegoat to get away from what you did. You know what you did. You forced someone to do something they didn't want to do and manipulated others into making him do so.

You're as guilty as a dog that stealthily eats a porkchop on a table upon seeing a housekeeper with a baseball bat running towards him.

 

[A Lost Soul]

Don't use that as a scapegoat to get away from what you did. You know what you did. You forced someone to do something they didn't want to do and manipulated others into making him do so.

You're as guilty as a dog that stealthily eats a porkchop on a table upon seeing a housekeeper with a baseball bat running towards him.

technically if rule 2 is unconstitutional so is rule 1. Even if rule 2 applied to cult members alone it still would be unconstitutional. Unfortunately, neither are.

 

[RPI]

Don't use that as a scapegoat to get away from what you did. You know what you did. You forced someone to do something they didn't want to do and manipulated others into making him do so.

You're as guilty as a dog that stealthily eats a porkchop on a table upon seeing a housekeeper with a baseball bat running towards him.

technically if rule 2 is unconstitutional so is rule 1. Even if rule 2 applied to cult members alone it still would be unconstitutional. Unfortunately, neither are.

Applying to the cult is voluntary, so if someone *wants* to give up those rights, sure, let them do so.

 

[Wolfsea]

We leave this in the hands of public opinion but we've made our stance clear. We will not hold the oath cheap.

 

[New Spartonia]

Err, sorry, using methods to try to force others not in this party to endorse you is not constitutional.

What do you define as force?

He means that making it a rule of the WA cult is a breach of the rights of those who are in it and thus is unconstitutional. Freeion has the right to endorse whoever he wants.

And if you want to call us crybabies for upholding the constitution, then go make your own region that doesn't have a government and go wild. Here, we give people the rights to decide if they want to do something or not.

Welcome to freedom. Enjoy your stay.

Nicely put.

 

[Syrixia]

Err, sorry, using methods to try to force others not in this party to endorse you is not constitutional.

What do you define as force?

He means that making it a rule of the WA cult is a breach of the rights of those who are in it and thus is unconstitutional. Freeion has the right to endorse whoever he wants.

And if you want to call us crybabies for upholding the constitution, then go make your own region that doesn't have a government and go wild. Here, we give people the rights to decide if they want to do something or not.

Welcome to freedom. Enjoy your stay.

Nicely put.

Thank you. I fashion myself to be an expert at aggressive yet dignified rants.

 

[Wolfsea]

Err, sorry, using methods to try to force others not in this party to endorse you is not constitutional.

What do you define as force?

He means that making it a rule of the WA cult is a breach of the rights of those who are in it and thus is unconstitutional. Freeion has the right to endorse whoever he wants.

And if you want to call us crybabies for upholding the constitution, then go make your own region that doesn't have a government and go wild. Here, we give people the rights to decide if they want to do something or not.

Welcome to freedom. Enjoy your stay.

Nicely put.

Thank you. I fashion myself to be an expert at aggressive yet dignified rants.

Syrixia saves the day again.

 

[Romanoffia]

This is pretty appalling. I'm glad I declined to join this when approached by A Lost Soul by telegram a few minutes ago, and I will be withdrawing my endorsement from him. Whether this kind of intimidation is legal or not, nothing compels WA nations of The North Pacific to endorse anyone, and A Lost Soul may in fact find himself on the receiving end of an also completely constitutional, privately undertaken unendorsement campaign.

I would also like to know who else was involved in this and if they, like Darcania, regret their involvement. If not, I'll be pulling endorsements from them as well.

Well said, Cormac. Well said.

 

[aber639]

Gentlemen I believe that all who sign on for the Cult had no intention on breaking the constitution of this region and it would be hard for me to believe that everyone in the organization who un-endorse someone for the reasons of bullying . As it has been said everyone has the right to endorse who they so choose I just can't see that with the respect most all here have for TNP and all in it that the people involved in said organization would follow that said rule to the letter.
My two cents...

 

[Benolia]

A Lost Soul sure has proven himself unpopular in the region.

I, Darcania, and others in Home Affairs had our own reasons to hate him from the beginning. Andrew, our Minister of Home Affairs, was nice about A Lost Soul's discourteous post in his thread in The Docks that lead me and others in the ministry to dislike him, but I found it very inappropriate. I had a feeling that he would get into some kind of trouble after that. Now with this blatant violation of TNP law, many more have become angered by his actions and disrespect for our members and rules.

Although I will not unendorse all the members of the cult, I have taken the liberty to unendorse A Lost Soul. I hope you all do the same.

[me]

 

[bootsie]

Now I usually don't get involved in political parties, I must say I've always thought the Cult was shady. While most people just see endorsements as way to puff out their chests and say, "Look guys, I'm awesome!", we must remember that endorsements are not a right, but a privilege. Those who are on the Security Council share a love for protecting the region, and are also those who are well respected. Therefore, I have unendorsed A Lost Soul, as I do not believe he has earned my endorsement any longer.

 

[Syrixia]

I have unendorsed A Lost Soul as well. Frankly I agree with you and likely most TNPers on this one.

He's a lost soul. So he should get lost. If he doesn't, he'll turn into Govindia the Second.

 

[Darcania]

It has come to my attention that I apparently didn't operate under SillyString's orders... just her recommendations.

So, yeah. Just wanted to clear that up.

 

[SillyString]

To weigh in on the legality issue, I'm not convinced that the actions in question are illegal. The Bill of Rights establishes all nations' sovereign right to give and withhold endorsements with the intent of protecting against a government. It keeps anybody from finding themselves in TRR or in court for not endorsing members of the government. And more broadly, I'm of the opinion that people who are neither admins nor government officials cannot violate the bill of rights.

What this was was against the spirit of the BoR, and definitely counter to the type of community we've built up. Threatening and attempting to extort votes out of people is in no way part of TNP's culture. Additionally, I have concerns that if this sort of thing is the first thing new nations are exposed to in TNP, it will give them wrong impressions about the sort of environment we foster.

 

[Crushing Our Enemies]

Clearly, A Lost Soul has gone too far with his endorsement gathering project. Perhaps if he had been more cooperative and less aggressive in his efforts, his group would have seen more success. Intimidation and coercion have little place in our waters, as he is now finding. ALS's endorsement count has been dropping like a rock ever since this went public. Let this incident be an example of how capable TNP is of setting its own disputes with no need for legal action.