12:54 PM
]
Dreadton von Ship
:@Court
https://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic/9196246/ R4R for some nonsense
The North Pacific
[R4R] On what is disclosed in a private ballot
1. What law, government policy, or action (taken by a government official) do you request that the Court review?
During the September 2022 General Election The Voting Booth disclosed more than it was legally allowed to from my private ballot.
2. What portions of the Constitution, Bill of...
Image
[
12:55 PM
]
Kronos
:
I’ve seen it and my day is ruined
[
12:56 PM
]
Dreadton von Ship
:
its an attempted gatcha case
[
12:57 PM
]
Dreadton von Ship
:
i would post an order preserving the private ballot as submitted to the votting booth while we sort through this
[
1:07 PM
]
Kronos
:
Yeah keep things the same until we come to a conclusion. Anyone feel a want to moderate the case?
[
1:09 PM
]
Dreadton von Ship
:
i will do it
[
1:11 PM
]
Kronos
:
Alright great! We’ll also make sure the EC is informed so the chief may submit a brief if they want
[
1:13 PM
]
Dreadton von Ship
:
I can post the order to preserve now, and we can wait till LD weighs in on if we should take it.
[
1:14 PM
]
Kronos
:
That’s a good idea.
[
1:14 PM
]
Dreadton von Ship
:
alirght
[
1:19 PM
]
Dreadton von Ship
:
actually, we could deny because he didnt use the procedures listed in the EC procedures to challenge the decision, 1. Citizens may petition the Election Commission at large to review a decision of the Election Supervisors in a thread in the Elections forum. that would solve thie before we would have to make a decision
[
1:24 PM
]
Kronos
:
Does posting a private ballot with additional commentary count as a decision?
[
1:24 PM
]
Dreadton von Ship
:
They decieded not to alter his ballot just correct the bbcode
[
1:25 PM
]
Dreadton von Ship
:
hes trying to say they broke the law by not editing his ballot
[
1:26 PM
]
Dreadton von Ship
:
which if they did we would still be here because then he would argue they broke the law by removing parts of his ballot
[
1:26 PM
]
Dreadton von Ship
:
which is why i say this is a gotcha case
[
1:27 PM
]
Kronos
:
Okay I see what you're saying. That's actually annoying
[
1:28 PM
]
Dreadton von Ship
:
its a bad faith attempt to fuck around with the laws and the people
[
1:31 PM
]
Kronos
:
yeah I'm not a fan of how this went at all.
We could redirect the case to the EC for review but the rule you cited says the citizen may petition the EC about a decision which means they could but they can find other means of review. So it could be argued that 9003 chose to bring this to the Court instead of the EC for whatever reason so could redirecting the case to the EC cause a fuss? It doesn't mean we can't do it anyway citing that rule I'm just not a fan of fuss.
[
1:33 PM
]
Dreadton von Ship
:
im pointing out its an ave available to us. plus the fact he choose not to use it instead, filed a court case that wont be ruled on till after the election.
[
1:34 PM
]
Dreadton von Ship
:
If we take it we cut to the bone and skip a bunch of crap, we can address it in a ruling that it should go there first if we want.
[
1:35 PM
]
Kronos
:
Then it becomes precedent that is hopefully followed in the future and the Court sees less of this mess which sounds nice.
If the case had been petitioned to the EC would they still have to wait until the election ended or could they act on it then and there?
[
1:37 PM
]
Dreadton von Ship
:
my understanding of the EC rules is that i can be acted upon at any time within reason. Its not specified but i doubt someone can come 6 months after the fact and say EC messed up such and such election
[
1:37 PM
]
Dreadton von Ship
:
there is a rule that states the election can be halted while the EC considers the petition
[
1:37 PM
]
Dreadton von Ship
:
2. During this process, if three or more Election Commissioners move that the election should be halted, the Election Supervisors will immediately halt the election.
[
1:44 PM
]
Kronos
:
Yeah looking at that entire section it is written in a way that says the election is continuing while the EC decides what to do and the election is only halted if the EC agrees to do so.
Can an R4R be denied if another institution's rules are not used? I thought they only needed standing/regional interest and to fill out the application properly.
[
1:47 PM
]
Dreadton von Ship
:
we have paused cases while other cases happened, but there is nothing specific nor anything in the past i can refer to
[
1:49 PM
]
Dreadton von Ship
:
in the american court system you have to exhaust admin remedies before filing a case
[
1:52 PM
]
Kronos
:
Ah I understand. That way the Court is not making decisions without institutions first doing what they can to resolve the issue. In that context having the EC do what they can first before coming to us for review is the fair thing to do.
[
1:54 PM
]
Kronos
:
Is that something that has happened before when a court case is filed? I'm thinking it may not go well if we suddenly introduce this principle.
[
1:57 PM
]
Dreadton von Ship
:
Not that i know of but i havent combed through the denied r4rs
[
2:12 PM
]
Kronos
:
From what I've come across so far it's a mixture of not having standing/petitioners presenting hypotheticals or "what if" questions, or what petitioners are asking for is outside the scope of the Court's powers.
Though I'm guessing there isn't anything that says we can't create new principle in order to preserve an efficient judicial system.
[
2:18 PM
]
Kronos
:
All in all the EC has procedures in place to resolve issues that appear during elections that can be used by citizens before coming straight to the Court. In this instance the petitioner came straight to Court and there is no record on the forum of a petition to the EC to challenge the ballot presented in the application. Following the admin remedies principle the petitioner should have attempted to exhaust all possible remedies with the EC and then petition the Court if they remained unsatisfied. Whether or not we want to enforce that principle is up to us. I haven't found any past R4R that was denied for similar reasons but where precedent does not exist it can be made to exist.
[
2:36 PM
]
Kronos
:
All that word vomit aside the whole "gotcha" aspect of this case makes it feel like it's all part of the joke/plan and I heavily despise the Court being used as a means to an end when it comes to jokes and trolls. Redirecting to the EC is fair they should have a chance to resolve the issue before the Courts intervene. I'm locking in my answer!
[
2:37 PM
]
Dreadton von Ship
:
I can support that course of action
[
2:38 PM
]
Dreadton von Ship
:
if we go that way and he does it i will have to recuse if he refiles
[
2:40 PM
]
Kronos
:
We will work that out if he does no worries there
[
2:45 PM
]
Kronos
:
Though if he does bring it to the EC and the EC has to convene as a whole then I will probably be in the recusal boat with ya
[
2:45 PM
]
Dreadton von Ship
:
[
2:54 PM
]
Lord Dominator
:
I would generally agree that it’s appropriate to direct the initial case over to the EC, as there is relevant law indicating as much.
[
3:04 PM
]
Dreadton von Ship
:
"The court agrees that this request is not ripe for the court to review at this time. Section 4.3.18 of the legal code gives citizens the right and ability to petition the Election Commission to review a decision made by the Election Commissioners Supervising a given election. The Election Commission can respond to this matter faster than the court, and has the legal authority to pause or restart the election as necessary. The court directs the petitioner to avail themself of this remedy before they consider refiling this petition."
[
3:06 PM
]
Dreadton von Ship
:
hows that sound?
[
3:07 PM
]
Kronos
:
That sounds good to me
[
3:09 PM
]
Lord Dominator
:
My version of the same, since I was already typing
[
3:09 PM
]
Lord Dominator
:
The Court at this time denies the request for review of the petitioner. While the petitioner does have standing due to it being their ballot in question, the Legal Code already provides a remedy in Section 4.3.17-19 to allow for citizens to review decisions of the Election Commissioners supervising a given election, and the Election Commission has designated a procedure for such in Article 6 of their rules. The Court thus views the Election Commission as the appropriate body to request a review of a ballot and directs the petitioner to avail themself of this remedy before they consider refiling this petition.
[
3:11 PM
]
Dreadton von Ship
:
we can use yours but i would add the last sentence of mine and drop the second half of your last sentance
[
3:11 PM
]
Lord Dominator
:
You mean take your last sentence and replace that part of mine?
[
3:12 PM
]
Dreadton von Ship
:
The Court thus views the Election Commission as the appropriate body to request a review of a ballot. The Court directs the petitioner to avail themself of this remedy before they consider refiling this petition.
[
3:13 PM
]
Lord Dominator
:
Ah
[
3:13 PM
]
Dreadton von Ship
:
like that, so we are clear that he can refile, but it would be better if he went that way first.
[
3:14 PM
]
Lord Dominator
:
Dangit, didn’t mean to edit mine
[
3:14 PM
]
Lord Dominator
:
But otherwise, looks good?
[
3:14 PM
]
Dreadton von Ship
:
yep. I can post if we all agree
[
3:14 PM
]
Lord Dominator
:
Sounds good to me
[
3:14 PM
]
Dreadton von Ship
:
@Kronos
[
3:15 PM
]
Dreadton von Ship
:
":
The Court at this time denies the request for review of the petitioner. While the petitioner does have standing due to it being their ballot in question, the Legal Code already provides a remedy in Section 4.3.17-19 to allow for citizens to review decisions of the Election Commissioners supervising a given election, and the Election Commission has designated a procedure for such in Article 6 of their rules. The Court thus views the Election Commission as the appropriate body to request a review of a ballot and directs the petitioner to avail themself of this remedy before they consider refiling this petition. "
[
3:16 PM
]
Kronos
:
Sounds good to me I like it
[
3:16 PM
]
Lord Dominator
:
I also made a thread in Private Conference for later collection of these Discord messages
[
3:17 PM
]
Dreadton von Ship
:
alright i will post and let the fireworks go
