F/S Update and TNP

Hulldom · Jun 27, 2022

Hi all,

I put together this thread so that we could discuss the upcoming frontier/stronghold update and what it will mean for TNP and her foreign affairs.

I can add immediately that I am fairly confident that our treaties with Europeia and Balder will be amended at some point to encompass the F/S update with Euro in particular already making preparations to go frontier pending formal legal maneuvers, a referendum, and of course the update rolling out.

Before we move on, I want to point out that I know some of these topics are above some of y’all’s paygrades, but starting the discussion is nice because it will form the basis of any recommendations we may choose to issue on the subject or any future legislation we may choose to prepare for the RA’s consideration.

So, what do I want to cover in this thread?

1. Addressing some of the concerns I brought up to Ghost the other night on the topic.
(spoilered below)

2. Thinking about how TNP law might be affected by any frontiers we choose to make, if any. (Additionally thinking through what sorts of things we might recommend for other parties in the region to prepare for such an update.)

3. Gameplanning for the future of foreign relations in the bold new F/S world.

- What provisions would we need to make for amendments to treaties to ensure that frontiers we create, or may choose to create, are included under various protections?

- What degree of FA control would we want to exercise over a potential frontier/colony? Would we want to make its FA subordinated to TNP’s or only step in if they want to do something truly objectionable?

- How do we ensure that a colony/frontier would comply with our recruitment standards and the recruitment standards most followed by the international community (the Arnhelm Declaration)?

- Who owns the founder of a frontier before its transition to frontier status? And thus can serve as a break on the region’s potential worse impulses. And in the case of Stargate (as an example), how do we handle an exec Delegacy when it comes to dealing with troublemakers, etc.?

- What degree of control would we want to give the natives over their region? While I know the end goal would be a funnel, would we write the law such that “frontier status” is subject to TNP admin but fundamentally a separate community or as fundamentally TNP?

- How do we provide for regional government?

- What provision would we make for the laws of a colony? Would we make it such that *ad interim* TNP’s laws would be in effect? Would we also make it that the colony’s law would supersede upon the ratification of a Constitution and Bill of Rights?

- What provision do we help them with the development of regional government infrastructure? Do we advise them on matters of foreign policy and military policy? What limits do we set for them on the matters of their own governance? (For instance, say the government of a hypothetical TNP frontier decides to go hardcore raider, what then?)

- Perhaps most importantly, do we fundamentally make this a matter of free compact? What if the natives of the community, after we’ve built up a native community, choose they want to go their own way, potentially stronghold?

- As a follow up to that, is there precedent in our own law for making certain provisions of a treaty subject to repeal without repealing the whole thing or would we need to repeal the whole thing?

- What should be the legal mechanism for making a frontier? Is it a “dummy treaty” of sorts that essentially resembles free compact? Is it a full treaty with another region and a government that does not exist? Is it direct rule and creation via law or government’s whim?

- Sort of tangentially to 2.3 and 2.2, how would we assign the “ownership” of administration to a colony? Certainly, it would behoove us to build up a base of competent administrators who could eventually administer regional infrastructure and conduct investigations separate from TNP.

- Similarly, what sort of provision would we want to make for separate spaces for residents of the frontier to interact? I don’t obviously think a new forum for a frontier would be appropriate, but would their own exclusive sections be? Would we want to set them up their own Discord so they could interact more fully with their regionmates?

- Would we want to offer a reciprocal citizenship agreement with the colony? Would we want a disproportionate agreement where citizenship in TNP is not sufficient for citizenship in the colony unless you have a nation in the colony but the reverse is not true?

- How far do we reach in if something goes wrong? If a Delegate goes haywire, what do we do?

- Pursuant to point 2.6, how would we manage it if a region chose to leave our jurisdiction but then wanted back in? How would we handle a region voluntarily eliminating their association of free compact when it comes to administration? (Like Discord, etc.!)

- Similarly, how would we handle “donations” of regions to potentially be frontiers? In the build up to the frontier transition (of the regions themselves, after the update, presuming they’re not automatically in a position to make the switch), would we make provision for the founders to be held by regional admin or would we want to keep those founders in the hands of the originals?

Comfed · Jul 30, 2022

No one has posted in this thread for a month but I don't care because I have opinions.

You (Hulldom) seem to fundamentally assume that these colonies would have a considerable degree of sovereignty and independence from TNP proper. This really sounds like pseudo-imperialism and I would see it as pretty contrary to our values. If we were to maintain these colonies at all (and I'm not convinced we should or need to, by the way) then they should operate more like territories - separate only in that the name of the region is not "The North Pacific". As such, I will be answering all of your questions with that as my opinion.

Hulldom:
- What provisions would we need to make for amendments to treaties to ensure that frontiers we create, or may choose to create, are included under various protections?

The Grey Wardens have already pioneered this in their treaties with Europeia and The South Pacific for their territory regions which they plan to make into frontiers. The Treaty of Par Vollen with Europeia has this in its text:

(f) A “protectorate” of either party shall be a region which exists under the sovereign protection or control of the party’s legitimate government. In order for a territory or home region to be afforded protections under this treaty, it must be listed:
The Order of the Grey Wardens, as the home region of The Order of the Grey Wardens.
Europeia, as the home region of the Republic of Europeia.
The Amaranthine Isles, as a territory of The Order of the Grey Wardens.
The Frontier, as a territory of The Order of the Grey Wardens.

So I imagine it wouldn't be difficult to incorporate something similar into our treaties.

Hulldom:
- What degree of FA control would we want to exercise over a potential frontier/colony? Would we want to make its FA subordinated to TNP’s or only step in if they want to do something truly objectionable?

As it should be a territory of TNP, it shouldn't have foreign relations at all.

Hulldom:
- How do we ensure that a colony/frontier would comply with our recruitment standards and the recruitment standards most followed by the international community (the Arnhelm Declaration)?

As it would be a frontier for us as a feeder, I don't know that it would be appropriate for us to recruit through it at all. That said, as we already demand regions comply with our recruitment standards it should be easy to ensure that territory frontiers do as well.

Hulldom:
- Who owns the founder of a frontier before its transition to frontier status? And thus can serve as a break on the region’s potential worse impulses. And in the case of Stargate (as an example), how do we handle an exec Delegacy when it comes to dealing with troublemakers, etc.?

As an aside - it would be possible to found the region as a frontier in the first place and artificially inflate its rate of receiving spawns by just piling there with the NPA. We should treat a rogue Delegate as an insurrection and just unseat them.

Hulldom:
- What degree of control would we want to give the natives over their region? While I know the end goal would be a funnel, would we write the law such that “frontier status” is subject to TNP admin but fundamentally a separate community or as fundamentally TNP?

As stated before - fundamentally TNP. That said, the natives of these regions should be considered TNPers just like someone with a nation in TNP.

Hulldom:
- How do we provide for regional government?

Aside from some matters involving appointing the Delegates and ROs of these regions, I'd avoid these regions having a regional government, as they could just be part of the TNP government.

Hulldom:
- What provision would we make for the laws of a colony? Would we make it such that *ad interim* TNP’s laws would be in effect? Would we also make it that the colony’s law would supersede upon the ratification of a Constitution and Bill of Rights?

The colonies shouldn't have laws, in accordance with what I stated above. Their laws should be our laws.

Hulldom:
- What provision do we help them with the development of regional government infrastructure? Do we advise them on matters of foreign policy and military policy? What limits do we set for them on the matters of their own governance? (For instance, say the government of a hypothetical TNP frontier decides to go hardcore raider, what then?)

See the two above replies.

Hulldom:
- Perhaps most importantly, do we fundamentally make this a matter of free compact? What if the natives of the community, after we’ve built up a native community, choose they want to go their own way, potentially stronghold?

Ideally this wouldn't happen because they wouldn't have a separate community from TNP. But if it does happen - they can always leave, but the region itself shouldn't be allowed to just quit.

Hulldom:
- What should be the legal mechanism for making a frontier? Is it a “dummy treaty” of sorts that essentially resembles free compact? Is it a full treaty with another region and a government that does not exist? Is it direct rule and creation via law or government’s whim?

Something like Europeia's gameside act would be best, IMO - the Delegate can create and ask the RA to confirm a region as a frontier territory of TNP.

Hulldom:
- Sort of tangentially to 2.3 and 2.2, how would we assign the “ownership” of administration to a colony? Certainly, it would behoove us to build up a base of competent administrators who could eventually administer regional infrastructure and conduct investigations separate from TNP.

You assume that they'd have any kind of separate community platforms. We shouldn't break up our community like this and they should just use our forums and discord server, subject to the rules of our administrators.

Hulldom:
- Similarly, what sort of provision would we want to make for separate spaces for residents of the frontier to interact? I don’t obviously think a new forum for a frontier would be appropriate, but would their own exclusive sections be? Would we want to set them up their own Discord so they could interact more fully with their regionmates?

Their regionmates should be not only themselves but also people from TNP proper. I don't really think that we need to create a separate space for them.

Hulldom:
- Would we want to offer a reciprocal citizenship agreement with the colony? Would we want a disproportionate agreement where citizenship in TNP is not sufficient for citizenship in the colony unless you have a nation in the colony but the reverse is not true?

Residents of these territories should be treated as residents of TNP. These territories should not have a separate citizenship system by themselves.

Hulldom:
- How far do we reach in if something goes wrong? If a Delegate goes haywire, what do we do?

I've already said what I think should happen to a haywire Delegate.

F/S Update and TNP

Hulldom

Winter Kingdom

Comfed

Minister