[Conclave and Community Discussion] The Name of Umbrial

[Prydania]

The name for "Latin" in Eras has been "Umbrial" for over two years. Since then the name has stuck. And like IRL Latin, it's become something of a global language. Nations beyond those based on Rome have adopted either the language or ethnic background of the "Umbrial" group, and the language is used in the Courantist Church. Which is Eras' equivalent of the Catholic Church. Many nations with sizable Courantist populations use Umbrial in some way.

lanmey7-aka Steve-aka the Imperium has expressed a desire to change the name of Umbrial. As Umbrial as a language is rather widespread and a communal thing, it has been decided that we will ask the community what exactly its thoughts are.

So we will start with a simple question; Does the name "Umbrial" need to be changed?

 

[BorkWI]

I believe that it does not need to be changed. This is because I feel that the name fits the “Latin” culture group very well. The name “Umbrial” sounds very dark and mysterious, which makes it fit the culture group in my opinion. It also sounds really cool!

 

[Paxiosolange]

It doesn't seem like a good idea to change the name of the language set in stone lore-wise and when there are a vast array of people who would need to restructure their canon to work with it. I would suggest perhaps having two languages based on IRL latin, one being Umbrial, and the other being some other variant of latin (classical, vulgar, liturgical, modern, etc.) so that people can chose between both languages depending on whichever background they want for their language.

 

[St George]

There's not so much a 'need' to change - there's very few things that need to be changed, but I still think it'd be a good idea. Umbrial comes from the word 'Umbria' which is a region of central Italy to the north of Latium, where Rome is. It's doesn't fit the grammar or lexicography of Latin and Umbria as a region or place doesn't exist in Eras.

A more appropriate name would preferably come from a Latin word or phrase.

 

[Yamantau Em]

I do not believe the name Umbrial needs to be changed. The community has taken and embraced it for the last 2 years, and until now, nobody has had an issue with it. The name has also been heavily ingrained in the canon by multiple nations, as well the Courantist Church. To demand a change in name now is the same as demanding that all those who have embraced the term collectively change any works involving the term, the lore behind it, and all the other hard work that many people have put in over the last 2 years.

 

[Iraelia]

Umbrial, as you note in your post above, is not the language of a singular nation, but something akin to Mercanti in it's universality. For this reason, I don't think the name ought to be changed. Umbrial is the language of the Auroral and Courantist church, both institutions having no formal roots in the Imperium, and I don't see any reason why a name change (which I assume is being done to more accurately reflect the supposed origin of the language) ought to apply outside of the Imperium.

I do have a suggestion regarding the language, however, if Steve would like to use it. When I made Callise, Ceretis was the primary French inspired nation on Eras and French was firmly established with the name Ceretian. While I wanted to use the language but maintain a degree of linguistic separation from Ceretis, I decided instead to make Callisean a close relative of Ceretian, by using Occitan, a close relative of the French language. If we can find languages similar to Latin in structure, with only minor differences, I think that would appease all parties involved.

 

[St George]

A note on the roots of Umbrial: It originates solely in what is now called Gwladcan, the former Imperium Augustum.

 

[Antonius Kaizuniviel]

I don’t believe that changing the name is necessary. It would mean having to make to make significant changes with the lore built around it. Furthermore, it has been used by the community, as mentioned, for the last two years, and during that time, no one has had an issue with the name.

 

[Highton]

I don't think the name itself needs to be changed, but I don't think it's entirely clear what the origin of the name is IC. Perhaps that should be established.

 

[Democratu/Regunalia]

As far as my perspective, Latin (irl Umbrial) refers to itself as Latina as in Rident Stolidi Verba Latina (Fools laugh at the Latin language). Thus, it would follow that Umbrial would refer to itself as Umbriala in my opinion to draw parallels between the 2

As far as Umbrial being the base name for the language, it's fine

 

[Alsatian Island]

I do believe we should keep it as such. Users have got used to this, potentially using it in their nations, and changing it doesn't warrant a net gain for anyone except people disapproving of the name.

If one really had an issue with this name, perhaps I suggest just making your country call it something alternative? Maybe that could work a go between.

The only perceivable reasoning for this name change would be the creation of the nations backstory and a corresponding name to go with it.

 

[Yrkidding]

I don't think a name change is particularly necessary either, especially considering the last two years of use.

I understand the Umbria connection but don't think that's so readily-apparent that it requires change.

 

[Ianmey7]

The way I wanted to do things was make the (latin) I spoke as a different name as Classical Latin is different to Ecumenical. It also was weird to me that the two Umbrial speaking nations have not a large Courantist populations. MJ has come up with a good idea to make things work. A compromise.

 

[Kyle]

The way I wanted to do things was make the (latin) I spoke as a different name as Classical Latin is different to Ecumenical. It also was weird to me that the two Umbrial speaking nations have not a large Courantist populations. MJ has come up with a good idea to make things work. A compromise.

Hi!

I think this helps clarifies things; allowing the Courantists (and everyone who had included "Umbrial" in their canon) to retain "Umbrial", while at the same time allowing Steve some degree of freedom with regards to shaping his nation.

Umbrial comes from the word 'Umbria' which is a region of central Italy to the north of Latium, where Rome is.

A more appropriate name would preferably come from a Latin word or phrase.

With regards to the origin of the word "Umbrial", may I suggest that it was instead related to the Latin word umbra = "shadow"? Which we can explain as something related to them being Courantists (either them being viewed as "shadowy" people or if they had been persecuted, they "lived in the shadows").

 

[St George]

The dates on here are subject to change:
1. Latin (will probably need a new term for this rather than Umbrial, see below) originates on the Iterian part of Gwladcan. (circa pre-1500 BCE)
2. Due to the presence of the Argent Imperium (probably, this will need to be worked out with @Yalkan and @Esplandia) they can't expand south into Iteria, and so expanded across the strait, colonising in the same way as the Greeks did irl (up to 500 BCE)
3. They are eventually conquered/subjugated by the Kilith, an Etruscan speaking people from the north side of the strait (up to 100 BCE)
4. After the initial conquest, Latin peoples found what become Imperium Epiphani on Auroria (100-50 BCE) - they eventually begin to call Latin "Suavidicus" - meaning silver tongued per @Ianmey7's suggestion
5. Several centuries of suppression follow, during which time the first Latin peoples arrive on Saintonge's east coast (1st Century CE - early 4th Century CE) - these Latin peoples adopt the term Umbra (or Umbrial arising from umbra) per @Kyle's suggestion
6. The Courtantist Umbrials start to conquer/settle in Saintonge, during a brief period where they have gotten control over what is then the Epiphanes. (late 4th century CE)
7. The Canwyr, Welsh speaking tribesman invade and conquer the Epiphanes, forming what is now Gwladcan, with the Umbrials essentially gaining Saintonge but losing the Epiphanes/Gwladcan (5th century CE)

Origins of the Canwyr is something I can work out singularly or with nations nearby Gwladcan.

I think @Predice also might be involved with 5-6 at some point.