Mandatory Ministries Bill

abc

abc

Duck
TNP Nation
ABC
Discord
abc#8265
I propose these changes to the legal code:

Mandatory Ministries Bill:
Chapter 7 of the Legal Code will be amended as follows:

Section 7.6: Mandatory Ministries
38. There will be an Executive Officer charged with The North Pacific's foreign affairs. They will ensure the continued operation of any embassies of The North Pacific and will report on events in the region.
39. There will be an Executive Officer charged with military affairs. They will carry out such legal missions as are authorized by the Delegate, expressly or categorically.
40. There will be at least one Executive Officer charged with focusing primarily on matters of internal interest to The North Pacific.
41. There will be an Executive Officer charged with The North Pacific's communications. They will ensure that important regional events and happenings are effectively communicated to The North Pacific and regions with embassies.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Mandatory Ministries Bill:
Chapter 7 of the Legal Code will be amended as follows:

Section 7.6: Mandatory Ministries
38. There will be an Executive Officer charged with The North Pacific's foreign affairs. They will ensure the continued operation of any embassies of The North Pacific and will report on events in the region.
39. There will be an Executive Officer charged with military affairs. They will carry out such legal missions as are authorized by the Delegate, expressly or categorically.
40. There will be at least one Executive Officer charged with focusing primarily on matters of internal interest to The North Pacific.
41. There will be an Executive Officer charged with The North Pacific's communications. They will ensure that regional events and happenings are effectively communicated to The North Pacific and regions with embassies.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Mandatory Ministries Bill:
Chapter 7 of the Legal Code will be amended as follows:

Section 7.6: Mandatory Ministries
38. There will be an Executive Officer charged with the North Pacific's foreign affairs. They will ensure the continued operation of any embassies of the North Pacific and will report on events in the region.
39. There will be an Executive Officer charged with military affairs. They will carry out such legal missions as are authorized by the Delegate, expressly or categorically.
40. There will be at least one Executive Officer charged with focusing primarily on matters of internal interest to The North Pacific.
41. There will be an Executive Officer charged with the North Pacific's communications. They will ensure that regional events and happenings are effectively communicated to the North Pacific and regions with embassies.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
I believe that a communications ministry is very important to the region and that all residents have a right to easy access to what's going on in TNP. This will ensure that all residents are well informed of the regional events and happenings such as a new delegacy.
 
Has my full support, although the phrase "The North Pacific's communications" seems very broad, unless it's intended to be that way.
 
I think it should be changed to "important regional events and happenings". Otherwise, the ministry can just produce useless content about that one forum post some guy made.
 
Mystery Player:
I think it should be changed to "important regional events and happenings". Otherwise, the ministry can just produce useless content about that one forum post some guy made.
Click to expand...
:agree:

Full support.
 
Egalotir:
Has my full support, although the phrase "The North Pacific's communications" seems very broad, unless it's intended to be that way.
Click to expand...
It is broad though, the second phrase gives more clarification.

Syrixia:
Mystery Player:
I think it should be changed to "important regional events and happenings". Otherwise, the ministry can just produce useless content about that one forum post some guy made.
Click to expand...
:agree:

Full support.
Click to expand...
Thank you, this makes sense. Amended
 
I’m not sure I can get behind this bill. When it comes to mandatory ministries, we have to ask ourselves “what is the bare minimum needed to keep this region running?” I think the current ministries listed in the legal code answers that question quite nicely. It gives the Delegate a basic foundation while still allowing for some flexibility in the way they design their administration. Don’t get me wrong, Communications does some amazing work but these responsibilities could be divided up between other ministries if absolutely necessary. For example, Internal Affairs could be responsible for making sure that “important regional events and happenings are effectively communicated to The North Pacific” and Foreign Affairs could be responsible for sending this information to “regions with embassies”. I am in no way stating that each ministry does not have an important role in this current administration but I don’t think the current structuring of ministries needs to be set in stone. If this bill is to pass, I fear future bills making the remaining ministries mandatory are to follow.
 
I'm in agreement with Siwale.

It is a shame, however, to look for what we believe to be the bare minimum and chain ourselves to it. When it comes to the administration and function of the government, nobody can say what is necessary for each and every cabinet once the next general election is over. What can be done is very different to what can be said. If this bill was to pass, it would validate other claims to suppose that ministries such as Culture and WA Affairs deserve space on the legal code too, but that just cannot be the case.

It is unfortunate that we stick to the minimum, but it is our safety net and I don't think we should go poking holes in it. I do not renounce future efforts to change this bill because I believe there are some changes that need to be made, but are for another day completely and need their own time to come about.
 
I have to disagree with both Kasch and Siwale. "Bare minimum" to me sounds like an excuse, for lack of a better word. I understand both your arguments as to why we would thread that bottom line, but I don't entirely understand why would we absolutely chain ourselves to it.

It IS possible to go beyond bare minimum in a government setting, and not have it result in unnecessary function or added bureaucracy. This really has to do with the efficiency and power of the government, and the necessity of the laws of the government. Yes the bare minimum covers communications in the other ministries but even those ministries themselves MUST go beyond bare minimum of the law in order to function efficiently. I think unlike the the other ministries, communications is unique where more of a bare minimum is required in the overall legal of TNP.

This is because communication is our bases for all actions done in both NS, and this forum, and everything we do abroad. Yes we have an FA, WA, HA, etc. but communications plays a major role in every single one. More importantly, the topic of the government relationship with the RMB also comes to mind when I hear the word communication, and it currently isn't as good as it can be. Communications also allows us to be more transparent with other regions, our allies, RMB, and local citizens. Not to mention that it would be a large work load for every ministry to coordinate perfectly together to do the jobs, and output the current communications team does. Why expand workload vertically, when you can be efficient and ensure an ease of the work burden horizontally by ensuring a team or department or ministry that is focused on this task. Thus, because of the monumental role played by the requirement of communications across all platforms, I think it is important for the government to go beyond that "bare minimum" and ensure that one step above that exists to uphold the power, efficiency,and transparency that the TNP Communications gives us.

To me the communications of NS/TNP is just like a company's HR, or the agencies of the US that have oversight and control of comms in this country. They are a must, a step above bare minimum.
 
Egalotir:
I have to disagree with both Kasch and Siwale. "Bare minimum" to me sounds like an excuse, for lack of a better word. I understand both your arguments as to why we would thread that bottom line, but I don't entirely understand why would we absolutely chain ourselves to it.

It IS possible to go beyond bare minimum in a government setting, and not have it result in unnecessary function or added bureaucracy. This really has to do with the efficiency and power of the government, and the necessity of the laws of the government. Yes the bare minimum covers communications in the other ministries but even those ministries themselves MUST go beyond bare minimum of the law in order to function efficiently. I think unlike the the other ministries, communications is unique where more of a bare minimum is required in the overall legal of TNP.

This is because communication is our bases for all actions done in both NS, and this forum, and everything we do abroad. Yes we have an FA, WA, HA, etc. but communications plays a major role in every single one. More importantly, the topic of the government relationship with the RMB also comes to mind when I hear the word communication, and it currently isn't as good as it can be. Communications also allows us to be more transparent with other regions, our allies, RMB, and local citizens. Not to mention that it would be a large work load for every ministry to coordinate perfectly together to do the jobs, and output the current communications team does. Why expand workload vertically, when you can be efficient and ensure an ease of the work burden horizontally by ensuring a team or department or ministry that is focused on this task. Thus, because of the monumental role played by the requirement of communications across all platforms, I think it is important for the government to go beyond that "bare minimum" and ensure that one step above that exists to uphold the power, efficiency,and transparency that the TNP Communications gives us.

To me the communications of NS/TNP is just like a company's HR, or the agencies of the US that have oversight and control of comms in this country. They are a must, a step above bare minimum.
Click to expand...
The same could be said about Culture or WA Affairs if you took the time to build the right arguments for it. I could easily say that WA Affairs deserves the same importance as Home Affairs, Foreign Affairs and Defense for various reasons, but that does not mean that it has to be mandatory and necessary for the government to function.
I think unlike the the other ministries, communications is unique where more of a bare minimum is required in the overall legal of TNP.
Click to expand...
This makes no sense.

If it is not in the legal code as a mandatory ministry, then the 'bare minimum' for it is not even there. All Communications does is publish monthly versions of the Northern Lights and very rarely publish radio broadcasts. In contrast to Defense, which protects us and our allies - or Home Affairs, which is one of the most active and important ministries - or Foreign Affairs, which ensures that we maintain strong and healthy relations with the rest of NationStates. The Ministry of Communications is certainly not as important as you like to think it is.
This is because communication is our bases for all actions done in both NS, and this forum, and everything we do abroad. Yes we have an FA, WA, HA, etc. but communications plays a major role in every single one.
Click to expand...
How did you arrive at that assumption? Like I said before, Communications deals with TNL (The Northern Lights) and NBS (Northern Broadcasting Service), it doesn't deal with matters of importance to FA, WA or HA at all.
More importantly, the topic of the government relationship with the RMB also comes to mind when I hear the word communication, and it currently isn't as good as it can be.
Click to expand...
I think the word you are looking for is Gameside Advocate. Communications does not deal with RMB relations to the government. You'd be right if Pallaith decided that this was the case, but as far as I am aware, he hasn't. You seem to be losing track of the topic in discussion. We're talking about ministries, not virtues. Communication, as a virtue of a government, is definitely good. Communications is in reference to our ministry.
Communications also allows us to be more transparent with other regions, our allies, RMB, and local citizens.
Click to expand...
What does Communications need to be transparent about in the first place when it comes to other regions? Communications releases monthly issues of a regional newspaper, Foreign Affairs manages our foreign presence - they're different. The RMB was overseen by the RMB Guardians, which have now been disbanded and replaced by the Gameside Advocates - once again, not Communications' responsibility.
Not to mention that it would be a large work load for every ministry to coordinate perfectly together to do the jobs, and output the current communications team does.
Click to expand...
No it wouldn't. Communications may deserve a place in the history books as a very effective, enjoyable and generally nice-to-have ministry, but it doesn't deserve a place in our legal code.
Why expand workload vertically, when you can be efficient and ensure an ease of the work burden horizontally by ensuring a team or department or ministry that is focused on this task.
Click to expand...
I don't quite know what you mean by that, to be honest.
Thus, because of the monumental role played by the requirement of communications across all platforms, I think it is important for the government to go beyond that "bare minimum" and ensure that one step above that exists to uphold the power, efficiency,and transparency that the TNP Communications gives us.
Click to expand...
It is truly laughable to suggest that one ministry has provided this region with the power, efficiency and transparency that has been built through other means over for the last 15 years. Communications does not play a monumental role and never has played a monumental role, or at least not as monumental as FA, HA and Defense.
To me the communications of NS/TNP is just like a company's HR, or the agencies of the US that have oversight and control of comms in this country. They are a must, a step above bare minimum.
Click to expand...
One monthly regional newspaper and the occasional radio broadcast are not a must for part of the survival and efficiency of the regional government. You have failed to look at Communications in a ministerial sense, and in more of a hyperbolic sense, so that is why I have to disagree with your arguments.
 
For the region to function efficiently it is necessary for communications to be put out. These communications help residents understand the region better and can help them get interested in working in the region - either Executive Staff, Elections, or another necessary part of the region. Without learning about these events and seeing what has to happen for this region to function less residents will be inspired to work to improve the region and we could come upon a point without any volunteers to become deputy ministers or work in the executive staff which would be a serious setback. Also, a lack of communications makes it impossible for two regions to keep ties because the other region would feel like TNP was keeping them in the dark. We need minimums so that no Delegate can try to hurt this region by dismantling the communications ministry without amending the legal code, requiring a 2/3 majority vote by the RA. Also, Kasch as former Minister of Communications your statements seem a little hypocritical.

Also, realize that many ambassadors in FA only provide the embassy region with TNL and often nothing else and Defense gets the word out throught TNL with it's own section. Also, if you see flaws with this bill, you can always suggest an amendment to it.
 
For the region to function efficiently it is necessary for communications to be put out.
Click to expand...
You act as if it is the only deciding factor, and no it is not necessary for us to put anything from Communications out. Most of what we publish is concerned with publicly available and easy to access information, that if anyone wanted to with enough effort, could find. We just make it easier.
These communications help residents understand the region better and can help them get interested in working in the region - either Executive Staff, Elections, or another necessary part of the region.
Click to expand...
A lot of things do exactly that as well, but we don't need to put them in the legal code or make them mandatory.
Without learning about these events and seeing what has to happen for this region to function less residents will be inspired to work to improve the region and we could come upon a point without any volunteers to become deputy ministers or work in the executive staff which would be a serious setback.
Click to expand...
Just because it may or may not have some positive influence on certain groups, does not mean that we should make it legally required. I haven't seen any serious setbacks in my time here because Communications hasn't been a mandatory ministry, we have seen time and time over what happens when the duties of ministries like Home Affairs, Foreign Affairs and Defense are ignored. The effects are much more prevalent.
Also, a lack of communications makes it impossible for two regions to keep ties because the other region would feel like TNP was keeping them in the dark.
Click to expand...
It also isn't required for us to contact other regions. We have done for this for years on end through Foreign Affairs, not Communications. We have formed treaties and built allies, not because of Communications, but because of the work done by FA and the Diplomats which work within it. Sure, other regions may want to be informed on notable events and whatnot, but not providing them would not be as damaging as if anything similar happened with FA, HA or Defense.
We need minimums so that no Delegate can try to hurt this region by dismantling the communications ministry without amending the legal code, requiring a 2/3 majority vote by the RA.
Click to expand...
If a Delegate decided to do so, it is not a regional matter. It would not hurt anyone if Communications was disbanded and merged into Foreign Affairs - it honestly wouldn't. Imagine if the Delegate decided to dismantle all of our embassies and all of our relations with allies, or if they disallowed military operations and left the region vulnerable, or if they stopped recruitment and mentoring - then it becomes a massive problem.

Communications has not done enough over the past few terms to grant itself or need a position in the legal code alongside the ministries already there. I admit, I tried to increase the activity within the ministry and did everything in my power to develop it through the means available to me because it was a job that I had decided to undertake. I did what I could, but those goals were not the most important in the government.
Also, Kasch as former Minister of Communications your statements seem a little hypocritical.
Click to expand...
I'd appreciate it if my former position wasn't used against me to justify your side of the discussion. I did what I could for the ministry, I am still helping it to this day and probably will in the future. At the end of the day, it is only my opinion. If I though the ministry was needed so badly that without it the region would collapse, I'd be in favour. That is not the case.
Also, realize that many ambassadors in FA only provide the embassy region with TNL and often nothing else and Defense gets the word out throught TNL with it's own section. Also, if you see flaws with this bill, you can always suggest an amendment to it.
Click to expand...
Even if what Foreign Affairs is doing right now is not at the activity level you'd like, without it, you cannot have the North Pacific we have today. You can however, without Communications. I'm only pointing out the flaws in the overall logic of the bill, if I wish to make amendments to the bill itself, those changes will have to be in a different context to this one.
 
Remember that the clause does not necessarily say there has to be a Ministry, it pretty much just says that there needs to be an Executive Officer in charge of it. This means that if he ministry were combined with FA a DM could oversee it. I agree to disagree.
 
abc:
Remember that the clause does not necessarily say there has to be a Ministry, it pretty much just says that there needs to be an Executive Officer in charge of it. This means that if he ministry were combined with FA a DM could oversee it. I agree to disagree.
Click to expand...
Then why are we even doing this? Mandatory ministries will need ministers to run them. It's disingenuous to claim that it's mandatory but not so important that you can subordinate it to another ministry.

I would be happy to explain my feelings at length later when I have more time, but the short version here is, I agree that Communications is an important ministry and can be of great benefit, but I don't think we can fairly say it rises to the level of the other mandatory ministries. People like Kasch or myself are not saying this to disparage the ministry, we believe in it and have made it a big part of our plans for the region. And you were right to cite Kasch's position as Minister of Communications. I think that gives his argument even more weight and you should seriously consider what he's saying.
 
I have considered this, but still believe Communications is important enough a Ministry to be mandatory. Thank you for your input, Pallaith.
 
I agree with Siwale and Kasch on that if we look at what ministries TNP needs to function at bare minimum that Communcations is not one of them. If TNP was in that kind of a situation, the responsibilities currently held by Communications could be delegated to the already mandatory ministries.
 
abc:
Remember that the clause does not necessarily say there has to be a Ministry, it pretty much just says that there needs to be an Executive Officer in charge of it. This means that if he ministry were combined with FA a DM could oversee it. I agree to disagree.
Click to expand...
This is not necessarily true, because Executive Officer only includes those officials that are appointed by the delegate to assist them in their duties. If a deputy minister were appointed by the delegate, that would satisfy the requirements of the proposed clause, but it would be something of a loophole - and that's only if we accept the interpretation that deputy ministers assist the delegate in their duties, and not solely the minister they serve under. The mandatory ministries section was always intended to refer to cabinet officials.
 
This is true, though law has many different interpretations and as this is such a broad area I feel like there are many different ways it can be interpreted. Just my opinion.
 
I'm broadly against mandating ministries in general, and only grudgingly okay with the ones we have specified.

In general, I think an elected delegate should have a pretty wide ability to choose how to structure and run the executive branch, both in terms of what they find to be valuable and how much staffing they can find. I was extremely close to cutting the Communications department altogether when I was delegate, because it was just such a chore to try to get anything written, and assigning its duties to FA and possibly Culture.

I think it would be perfectly valid for a delegate to say "I am not interested in worrying about a newspaper, I do not want to find someone to run it and writers to write for it, and I want to spend our time and effort on other things." They can lay that out in their platform to be elected, and voters can choose to elect them or not based on that. Personally, I also think it would be valid for a delegate to say "I am not interested in foreign affairs. I do not want us to engage with other regions." Or they might say, "Military gameplay bores and annoys me. It causes strife and I don't want us doing it." These are also things one might be or not be elected on the basis of. Or even, "The only fun thing in government is dealing with other regions. I am not interested in internal affairs or recruiting new members and will only focus externally."

I understand that some people are uncomfortable with the idea that a delegate could so radically revise our efforts in those areas, and I do personally feel that those areas are valuable, so I (again, grudgingly) accept that we have chosen to legislate on those and semi-remove the delegate's ability to not address those three areas. But I am against an expansion in what we consider to be the bare minimum of mandatory - every expansion restricts a delegate from governing as they best see fit. Sometimes that is okay, but I don't think Communications is something so intrinsic that we cannot function without it - especially given that it was an invention of r3n's delegacy (I think?) and we functioned fine without it before then.
 
It's not necessarily TNL, it's communication in general and although it isn't an essential ministry, it is an essential mechanism. Maybe the section could be renamed from Mandatory Ministries to something else such as Mandatory Functions?
 
Maybe not essential, but important. If a region's residents refuse to endorse an elected delegate because they're uninformed about elections, this is a serious problem.
 
abc:
Maybe not essential, but important. If a region's residents refuse to endorse an elected delegate because they're uninformed about elections, this is a serious problem.
Click to expand...
That doesn't require communications. Just link them the forum thread. Doesn't require a whole newpaper.
 
@SS, my first job in TNP was Minister of Communications for the Government-in-Exile led by Thel. The position was around for a long time. However, r3n's revitalization of the role is a brilliant advancement beyond anything we did in the past.

Regarding the proposal, I agree with Silly in that the less we mandate the Delegate's cabinet structure, the better. Not saying that Communications is not important, it is. But I have always believed that Culture is the most vital of ministries, and we don't require that.
 
Broadly, I concur with SillyString.

Communications does not need to be done under the name of Communications, and every department of the executive can do outreach, and the Northern Light can be handled by private citizens and sponsored by the Government.

Communications is a hard ministry to staff, and a hard ministry to keep going. Not every Delegate feels inclined to face that challenge when ranked alongside the necessity of our Home Affairs and Foreign Affairs programs and the necessity of the NPA to our security and foreign policy. I would always prioritise foreign affairs over communications as FA can and does distribute press releases to our allies and embassy partners.

And abc - "Maybe not essential, but important. If a region's residents refuse to endorse an elected delegate because they're uninformed about elections, this is a serious problem."

Dramatic much? Anyone who has been part of TNP for more than five minutes or witnessed an election cycle can tell you that we have never had an issue ensuring the in-game populace is informed about elections. Nor have we ever had an issue with new delegate's not getting the endorsements they've needed (unless there's a third party/faction trying to prevent them).

I am actually floored that you have attempted to use this as a reason for why Communications must be an essential, "mandatory" ministry. The duty of communication is a duty that all branches of TNP's government must uphold, and all aspects of the executive are not immune to that. If the Delegate cannot communicate effectively with their constituents, then we have a far larger issue at hand than making one government ministry mandatory.
 
"Maybe not essential, but important. If a region's residents refuse to endorse an elected delegate because they're uninformed about elections, this is a serious problem." - abc, 2017

"Daddy, why aren't you endorsing the new Delegate?"

"Because darling, I didn't get a telegram about it, and I can't read {the RMB} so I have no idea that elections are happening and I blocked regional telegrams."

"Oh, but that's silly."

"Yes it is! All because they didn't make Communications Mandatory back when they were told to!"

"You're so right, Daddy! When I grow up, I won't endorse the new Delegate either!"

"That's my girl!"
 
Okay first, that was a complete exaggeration. Many residents didn't endorse Pallaith at first, I looked at the RMB. Second, I see far more argument against this bill than for it and see enough good reasoning against it.

I motion to remove this bill from the floor.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top