Senior Citizenship Act

Why is this needed? What does this do that the RA does not already do?
 
Did the Ministry of Home Affairs disappear while I was out? Someone tell Siwale! Won't someone please think of the sloth!?
 
I was wrong in my preamble there, Siwale was kind enough to welcome me and we had a nice chat. They even greeted me in Discord over personal message.

Nevertheless, this designates three citizens to take on special responsibilities. It specifically excludes individuals who have already established themselves. It gives new citizens a chance to take ownership of their community.

New members who have problems may fear asking old-timers about it or inquiring about it publicly, for fear of causing offence where none is intended. This makes it clear that there are citizens who have not had a part of running the government that are willing and able to take the time to explain oddities to those with questions.Instead of avoiding the forums out of confusion, it would allow new players to ask those more senior how things work, what to expect when applying for citizenship, say, or what working in the Staff is like.

The two main things this bill accomplishes is formally acknowledges the needs of new citizens are different from those of established citizens, and provides a community over which certain individuals will assume responsibility, care for, and demonstrate their leadership style and ability (or lack thereof).
 
Hundred Worlds:
I was wrong in my preamble there, Siwale was kind enough to welcome me and we had a nice chat. They even greeted me in Discord over personal message.

Nevertheless, this designates three citizens to take on special responsibilities. It specifically excludes individuals who have already established themselves. It gives new citizens a chance to take ownership of their community.

New members who have problems may fear asking old-timers about it or inquiring about it publicly, for fear of causing offence where none is intended. This makes it clear that there are citizens who have not had a part of running the government that are willing and able to take the time to explain oddities to those with questions.Instead of avoiding the forums out of confusion, it would allow new players to ask those more senior how things work, what to expect when applying for citizenship, say, or what working in the Staff is like.

The two main things this bill accomplishes is formally acknowledges the needs of new citizens are different from those of established citizens, and provides a community over which certain individuals will assume responsibility, care for, and demonstrate their leadership style and ability (or lack thereof).
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You know how you joined MoWA as soon as you arrived and are part of that staff? You can do the same with HA, and this is precisely what they do. I love what you're trying to do here, but you already can the way things currently work. Sounds like you should be asking Siwale to be part of his ministry.
 
Siwale:
Well guys, I guess it is time for me to retire. :lol:
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I quick put in the preamble in five minutes. The bill itself took a week in the process. I know it comes right up against what the MIA does, but there are significant differences.

I was thinking of this TG from Kasch (notice the [your name] bit)
Hello Hundred Worlds!

Welcome to The North Pacific forums! I am [your name], and I have been assigned to be your forum mentor. As a new member, I understand that the forums could be a bit intimidating, but I am here to break it down for you and answer any questions you may have. First of all, I would recommend that you go ahead and join our regional chat. TNP is one of many regions in NationStates that use Discord as its regional chat. Here is the link to it: https://discordapp.com/invite/0p2MoFJe5Tq8M3Kd

You can get live help on our regional chat, get to meet many members of our community, and take part in political, regional, and role-play discussions.

Also, feel free to start a thread/topic and introduce yourself in our introductions sub-forum here: http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/forum/39572/ We would love to learn more about you!

First and foremost, I recommend that you go ahead and apply for citizenship. By obtaining TNP citizenship, you not only get access to more parts of the forum, but you can also create and sponsor legislation, hold public office, vote in elections, and run in elections. You can apply for citizenship here: http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic/7306731/

Once that's done, you could apply to be a soldier in the North Pacific Army (NPA)! The NPA is one of the largest military forces in all of NationStates, and it is unique in the sense that it participates in both raiding and defending. If you're into action and would like to go up the ranks of government, then the NPA is just right for you. You can apply to become a soldier in the North Pacific Army here: http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic/7279690/

If you do not want to join the NPA, that is fine, because there's another alternative to getting involved in TNP: The Executive Staff, TNP's civil service. The North Pacific has 6 government ministries each with its own Executive Staff that's tasked to help the Minister of each department with running their respective Ministries. Joining the Executive Staff is really the fastest way to get promoted in the Executive Branch. It is very, very common for a new member to be promoted to deputy minister or minister upon contributing to a ministry and showing strong work ethic. You can apply to join the Executive Staff right here: http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic/7198621/

The North Pacific has an active role-play (RP) department where you can write about your nation and its history, current events, culture, and anything else that comes to mind. In addition to that, you can interact with the nations of other players. You can establish treaties, go to war, trade, and much more! The North Pacific also has a whole role-play moderation team that can help you with getting started on an RP. You can view the role-play subfourm right here: http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/forum/3024521/

The North Pacific has an active role-play (RP) department where you can write about your nation and its history, current events, culture, and anything else that comes to mind. In addition to that, you can interact with the nations of other players. You can establish treaties, go to war, trade, and much more! The North Pacific also has a whole role-play moderation team that can help you with getting started on an RP. You can view the role-play subfourm right here: http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/forum/3024521/

One last important link: http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/forum/3006725/
This is where you can find important information about our region and read the answer to many commonly asked questions.

The opportunities in TNP are endless, and as your assigned mentor, I am here to help you throughout the way. If you have any questions or concerns please feel free to reply to this message or reach out to me on Discord.

Looking forward to getting to know you,

Kasch!
when I compared that to this TG from Sil
Thanks for joining the Ministry of World Assembly Affairs! You're going to want this link so you can get access to the executive discord and participate in discussions regarding WA votes:

https://discord.gg/7YGQcjg

Once you're there we can have someone mask you for the WA channel, just ask an admin who is present and they can set you up.

Also, join the WALL discord at https://discord.gg/VWNXs8C . Our IFV drafting discussions are migrating to that discord to collaborate with our allies.

Welcome to the team!

-Sil Dorsett
, though your TG is perfect
Hello!

Welcome to our forum. I hope you are finding your way around here easily. I know it can be overwhelming at first so I am here to help if you need anything.

Take care,

Siwale
and I repeat, you made me feel right at home (though I am ashamed to admit those conversations I had with you I did in fact remember as having with Sil :-/)
 
Hundred Worlds:
Siwale:
Well guys, I guess it is time for me to retire. :lol:
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I quick put in the preamble in five minutes. The bill itself took a week in the process. I know it comes right up against what the MIA does, but there are significant differences.

I was thinking of this TG from Kasch (notice the [your name] bit)
Hello Hundred Worlds!

Welcome to The North Pacific forums! I am [your name], and I have been assigned to be your forum mentor. As a new member, I understand that the forums could be a bit intimidating, but I am here to break it down for you and answer any questions you may have. First of all, I would recommend that you go ahead and join our regional chat. TNP is one of many regions in NationStates that use Discord as its regional chat. Here is the link to it: https://discordapp.com/invite/0p2MoFJe5Tq8M3Kd

You can get live help on our regional chat, get to meet many members of our community, and take part in political, regional, and role-play discussions.

Also, feel free to start a thread/topic and introduce yourself in our introductions sub-forum here: http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/forum/39572/ We would love to learn more about you!

First and foremost, I recommend that you go ahead and apply for citizenship. By obtaining TNP citizenship, you not only get access to more parts of the forum, but you can also create and sponsor legislation, hold public office, vote in elections, and run in elections. You can apply for citizenship here: http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic/7306731/

Once that's done, you could apply to be a soldier in the North Pacific Army (NPA)! The NPA is one of the largest military forces in all of NationStates, and it is unique in the sense that it participates in both raiding and defending. If you're into action and would like to go up the ranks of government, then the NPA is just right for you. You can apply to become a soldier in the North Pacific Army here: http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic/7279690/

If you do not want to join the NPA, that is fine, because there's another alternative to getting involved in TNP: The Executive Staff, TNP's civil service. The North Pacific has 6 government ministries each with its own Executive Staff that's tasked to help the Minister of each department with running their respective Ministries. Joining the Executive Staff is really the fastest way to get promoted in the Executive Branch. It is very, very common for a new member to be promoted to deputy minister or minister upon contributing to a ministry and showing strong work ethic. You can apply to join the Executive Staff right here: http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic/7198621/

The North Pacific has an active role-play (RP) department where you can write about your nation and its history, current events, culture, and anything else that comes to mind. In addition to that, you can interact with the nations of other players. You can establish treaties, go to war, trade, and much more! The North Pacific also has a whole role-play moderation team that can help you with getting started on an RP. You can view the role-play subfourm right here: http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/forum/3024521/

The North Pacific has an active role-play (RP) department where you can write about your nation and its history, current events, culture, and anything else that comes to mind. In addition to that, you can interact with the nations of other players. You can establish treaties, go to war, trade, and much more! The North Pacific also has a whole role-play moderation team that can help you with getting started on an RP. You can view the role-play subfourm right here: http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/forum/3024521/

One last important link: http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/forum/3006725/
This is where you can find important information about our region and read the answer to many commonly asked questions.

The opportunities in TNP are endless, and as your assigned mentor, I am here to help you throughout the way. If you have any questions or concerns please feel free to reply to this message or reach out to me on Discord.

Looking forward to getting to know you,

Kasch!
when I compared that to this TG from Sil
Thanks for joining the Ministry of World Assembly Affairs! You're going to want this link so you can get access to the executive discord and participate in discussions regarding WA votes:

https://discord.gg/7YGQcjg

Once you're there we can have someone mask you for the WA channel, just ask an admin who is present and they can set you up.

Also, join the WALL discord at https://discord.gg/VWNXs8C . Our IFV drafting discussions are migrating to that discord to collaborate with our allies.

Welcome to the team!

-Sil Dorsett
, though your TG is perfect
Hello!

Welcome to our forum. I hope you are finding your way around here easily. I know it can be overwhelming at first so I am here to help if you need anything.

Take care,

Siwale
and I repeat, you made me feel right at home (though I am ashamed to admit those conversations I had with you I did in fact remember as having with Sil :-/)
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I excuse my friend Kasch for this mistake. In Home Affairs, we have templates of what to send to new members. This is changing. Under Siwale as Minister of Home Affairs, we are encouraging our mentors to create their own telegrams to new members so it ois more personalized.
 
It makes sense that there are lots of Government Officials here because you guys are the ones that are here first, while other citizens may not see this for a day or two (or more! :gasp:).

The bill also creates a discussion zone exclusively for citizens that have never held office. It would allow them the space to brainstorm their ideas and work something up (if they think they needed to). I know it's anathema in a regional forum to suggest legislation ought to be constantly worked up, but it's not as though the CCC will only ever be drafting legislation. It is important to get the shared perspective of a bunch of new members, and in order to do that we need a community that is designated as only for them.
 
abc:
I excuse my friend Kasch for this mistake. In Home Affairs, we have templates of what to send to new members. This is changing. Under Siwale as Minister of Home Affairs, we are encouraging our mentors to create their own telegrams to new members so it is more personalized.
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I would say, then, that you miss my point entirely. Not that templates are a bad thing--they're not, they're super important for getting new members into the community. But uniform telegrams, while informative and necessary, are lacking that human touch--the intentional relationship that Siwale's TG demonstrated.

Kasch's mistake is of no consequence. What's important is that new members get both the TG like that, and also an informal "hello." Even better, I'd say, would be an informal "hello" followed by an informal invitation to an informal community comprised exclusively of other new members, which is exactly what this Bill would accomplish.
 
I'm not sure creating a legal obligation to welcome new members is really going to provide the personal touch you're looking for. I think this really is the province of the Home Affairs ministry, and not really the legislature. I think once you become more familiar with the various facets of our government, you'll probably realize that this bill is barking up the wrong tree, and that the real way to affect change in how members are recruited and welcomed to the forum is to join the home affairs ministry and make suggestions - because that's what it's for.

Don't take the criticism too hard - TNP takes legislation and rule-writing rather seriously.
 
SillyString:
But what does the Committee do!?
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One very important thing that the Committee does is appoint the Senior Citizens for a period of time. It may seem trivial, but the act of drafting even this simple a resolution will open some people's eyes--and minds--to the wonderful freedom and flexibility that comes with writing legislating. Exercises like these will help mould the minds of the great legislation of tomorrow, both for TNP and perhaps even the World Assembly stage.

One of the values of the CCC lies in the protections that the Committee has. Only its members are free to participate in the deliberations, debates, and votes of the Committee. It's a place for new ideas to bounce around without any interference from the old hands. In a certain sense, that is another thing that the committee does.

edited to give you a better answer--a feature I've thought about many times over the course of imagining this bill
 
Crushing Our Enemies:
I'm not sure creating a legal obligation to welcome new members is really going to provide the personal touch you're looking for. I think this really is the province of the Home Affairs ministry, and not really the legislature. I think once you become more familiar with the various facets of our government, you'll probably realize that this bill is barking up the wrong tree, and that the real way to affect change in how members are recruited and welcomed to the forum is to join the home affairs ministry and make suggestions - because that's what it's for.

Don't take the criticism too hard - TNP takes legislation and rule-writing rather seriously.
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The personal touch comes from the fact that the Senior Citizens are self-selecting. People who've got a lot to offer would have two, and let me point out not mutually exclusive, options: join the MHA and participate in the CCC, eventually as a Senior Citizen.

How members are recruited and welcomed to the forum is only half the job of the CCC, though it is what I've been advocating tonight.

It also acts as a place for staffers to commiserate and petition the Government for changes, and no doubt some Sr citizens will love getting the citizens' sense of developments in the region and injecting those perspectives into Government discussions and Regional Assembly debates.

OP edit 1: Changed the preamble to emphasize the broader scope and advantages of the proposed committee than what has been discussed thus far.
 
Commentary and questions are in red.

Encouraging Citizens to Participate in Good Government Act:
Resolved by the Citizens of The North Pacific in the Regional Assembly,
1. Pursuant to Article 7 Section 12 of the Constitution, the Rules of the Regional Assembly shall be amended to include the following--
[quote="]Section 4. Citizen Component Committee

1. The Citizen Component Committee is a standing committee of the Regional Assembly and is not vested with any legislative or rule-making authority over the Regional Assembly or The North Pacific.

2. The membership of the Committee consists of all citizens except past and present government officials, as defined by Article 7 Section 2 of the Constitution of The North Pacific. Only members may participate in the deliberations, debates, and votes of the Committee.

3. The Committee alone will determine the rules of its proceedings and will be administered by Senior Citizens. The number of Senior Citizens is limited to three. How is it envisaged that this clause would function if the Assembly saw fit to pass a proposal amending, say, clause 4 below or another part of these Rules?

4. The Senior Citizens will be appointed by the Committee. Members may only nominate themselves for appointment, and the Committee must appoint the nominee (or nominees) with the longest period(s) of citizenship. The start and length of the terms of the Senior Citizens may differ. No citizen may serve more than a cumulative seven weeks as Senior Citizen. Why a cumulative limit and why seven weeks?

5. Neither the Regional Assembly nor the Government may interfere with any lawful acts or procedures of the Committee, except the Regional Assembly may dismiss a Senior Citizen by a two-thirds majority vote. What types of acts would fall within the term "interfere"?

6. The Senior Citizens have a broad range of responsibilities.
  • With respect to Members of the Citizen Component Committee, Senior Citizens will: welcome new members and make them aware of the process to gain citizenship, encourage members to participate in regional affairs, and encourage members with seniority to serve as Senior Citizens.
  • With respect to the Government of the North Pacific, Senior Citizens will: inject members' perspectives into Government discussions and Regional Assembly debates, and will learn about the Regional Government and teach members how it operates.
  • With respect to Executive Staff, Senior Citizens will: propagate information about opportunities to work in the Government, as well as job duties and expectations, to members, advocate on behalf of members who are also members of the Executive team, and advise the Government on behalf of citizen staffers.
7. The Committee may send reports to the Regional Assembly and the Government without their express request. The Speaker will automatically put to a formal vote any properly-formatted recommendation sent to the Regional Assembly on behalf of the Committee. What would be a "properly-formatted recommendation"? Is this to be taken as permitting the committee to put Bills to vote before the Assembly without being debated outside of the committee?

8. All acts and resolutions of the Committee will pass by majority vote, including the start date and length of the term of a Senior Citizen and a vote of no confidence of the same. Unless otherwise agreed, the voting period for all votes will last three days. Clause 4 requires the Committee to appoint those with the longest period of citizenship that put themselves forward to be a Senior Citizen, does it not follow that there could be no vote against such appointment? The effect of a vote of no confidence is not prescribed; I presume it is intended that such a vote would remove a Senior Citizen, what prevents them from simply nominating themselves against, as they must be reappointed?

9. The number of votes required to achieve quorum is three or one-third the number of voters in the last three votes, whichever is greater.
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2. The position of Senior Citizen is not considered a government official, and is not required to take any oath before assuming office. This clause, which seems to be standalone (in the manner that clauses dealing with the entry into force of Bills usually are), could not exclude a Senior Citizen from being deemed a government official or being required to take the oath of office. Who is and is not a government official (and by extension, who must take the oath) is prescribed by the Constitution, any exclusion from it would have to be done by amendment to the Constitution.

3. The short title of this resolution is The Senior Citizenship Act. Title clauses are not usual form in TNP, personally I would simply pick one title and use it, rather than having the long title/short title distinction which is used in RL legislation.[/quote]
 
In case the proposal's detractors fail to mention it, Hundred Worlds should be commended for jumping in with both feet. Drafting RA legislation is not a challenge many newcomers would take on. We are a tough crowd here.

My question is this: Can't the things you envision this committee accomplishing be done anyway? Freedom of assembly is a guaranteed right, so if you want a committee, why not just do it? Or am I missing something?
 
Hmmm. Not feeling this, personally.

This bill proposes to organize the citizens who have never been appointed or elected to any office into a 'caucus' of sorts,
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There are many reasons why some citizens have never been appointed or elected to any office:

1. They may be very new in the region and not yet have the knowledge or experience to make a go of it.

2. They might not be trusted, liked or respected enough to win an election against other candidates.

3. They may be quite happy as part of the RA, but do not seek or desire to be involved to any greater degree.

4. They may be totally inactive except for making the occasional post to keep citizenship, and then pop out of the woodwork come election time. Funnily enough, they manage to be EXTREMELY involved in other regions.......

Either way - not sure they would be a great "caucus".

We already have a ministry to do this stuff. LEt those who desire it get involved in that ministry.
 
Hundred Worlds:
Only its members are free to participate in the deliberations, debates, and votes of the Committee. It's a place for new ideas to bounce around without any interference from the old hands. In a certain sense, that is another thing that the committee does.
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I'm confused on why the lack of advice from experienced players is a good thing.
 
Hundred Worlds:
2. The membership of the Committee consists of all citizens except past and present government officials, as defined by Article 7 Section 2 of the Constitution of The North Pacific. Only members may participate in the deliberations, debates, and votes of the Committee.
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This is the part that seems the weirdest to me.

First of all, the work of tracking who has ever been a government official is non-trivial. Former government official includes any former elected official, any former minister, several but not all former deputy ministers, any former deputy speaker or AG, any former THO, any former SC member, and any former election commissioner. Some of those are significantly more annoying to track than others, but all in all, it's a big list.

It also might include anybody who had ever served in a position that was summarily declared to be a government officialship by an erstwhile court ruling, until that ruling was overturned by later amendments to the constitution. That was defined under the same article as the one referenced in this text[note]Note that there is a potential danger here in naming a specific article and section of the constitution, as later constitutional amendments could render the reference, and thus the bill, meaningless.[/note], but with different text.

I am utterly unclear as to whether it would include individuals who served in government under earlier constitutions. Generally we consider those individuals former officials, as the current constitution is a legal successor document to earlier ones. However, they did not serve under article 7 section 2 of this constitution, so the result is quite unclear.

Separately to the issue of how to actually create a comprehensive list of current and former government officials, I am concerned that the result of something like this serves to penalize people for attempting to get involved in government. "Sure, you can help out and serve as an election commissioner, but you'll be kicked out of the group" does not good incentive make.
 
Yeah, I'm not really clear on why government experience should disqualify someone from anything, much less a group designed to help newer members of the region.
 
I am no longer defending this bill. Now, I would like you to recommend ideas to improve it. For instance, the most senior citizens can be appointed and then do absolutely nothing for forty-nine days--I would not have thought of that possibility without this important conversation.

So if you have any specific recommendations, either legislative language or still a rough idea or principle, I ask that you post it and make this--whatever it turns out to be--a real asset for The North Pacific. :tnp:
 
Hundred Worlds:
I am no longer defending this bill. Now, I would like you to recommend ideas to improve it. For instance, the most senior citizens can be appointed and then do absolutely nothing for forty-nine days--I would not have thought of that possibility without this important conversation.

So if you have any specific recommendations, either legislative language or still a rough idea or principle, I ask that you post it and make this--whatever it turns out to be--a real asset for The North Pacific. :tnp:
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I real don't see the point in this bill at all. Anybody can propose ideas. Why does it need it's own group?
 
Nor during formal debate, if memory serves, without the period being restarted or cancelled.
 
Lord Ravenclaw:
Nor during formal debate, if memory serves, without the period being restarted or cancelled.
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You are capable of editing a vote during formal debate, but not when a vote is scheduled, I believe.
 
Might I recommend not editing out the entire OP in the future? This whole thread now makes little sense...
 
flemingovia:
I suggest we all tiptoe quietly out of the room and never speak of this ever again.
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Rubbish. We'll need to bring it up regularly, or in every conversation we ever have with or about this member.
 
I have an idea - let's all keep posting here in this thread to keep it on the index page so that no one will notice that the election reform bill is now in formal debate and needs everyone's final input before going to vote!
 
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