Automated Removal of Citizenship Messages

Zyvetskistaahn

Zyvetskistaahn

TNPer
-
-
-
TNP Nation
Zyvetskistaahn
Discord
zyvet.
In view of the recent election, which caused some dissatisfaction among members who had lost their citizenship, I have a few questions that I would like to ask (Eluvatar having suggested a thread here for public comment).

Firstly, however, I will set out the reason for the dissatisfaction: for some members who's profiles display a masking other than the citizenship masking it is difficult to tell that they have lost their citizenship. It is particularly difficult to tell if the areas that they post in most regularly are not areas that require a citizenship masking. While it is possible for all members to see whether their citizenship has been removed by checking the rolls and to see the reason for their removal by checking the Admin requests thread these are, one imagines, not things done regularly by members.

So the questions: the first question is one of practicality, would it be possible for members to be sent an automatic PM telling them, say, that their citizenship had been removed and providing a link to the citizenship applications thread?

Second, whether there are any particular objections to an automatic PM of this kind being used (presuming one can be set up), either from the Admin team or from members generally?

Third, whether members would be amenable to a PM that is sent by the Speaker's Office either to particular members (which is to say, only to members that have something other than citizen as their displayed masking) or generally? (this question is mostly if an automatic PM is either objectionable or unworkable)

Fourth, though now outside of the matter of PMs, whether members would wish for a notification, in the form of a telegram to be sent to particular members or generally?
 
In the past, we had a script that automatically telegrammed (not PMed) nations when 1) they were granted citizenship; and 2) when their citizenship was rescinded.

This didn't happen during the last term, in part due to both COE's and my inactivity. I was in fact just about to PM you about reinstating these scripts, as I'm currently working on updating all of our telegramming scripts.

It's also possible to set up a third script, that telegrams people that they are about to lose citizenship, for instance if they haven't posted for 20 days or so. If you think that would be useful, we can set it up as well.

This is all about gameside telegramming. Automatic forum PMing is harder to do, but would probably be possible.
 
It would be really nice if one could, from the rolls, easily link to a send PM page for a given member, pre-filled with one of various form letters. I'm not familiar enough with the capabilities of scripts and spreadsheets to comment on implementation, though.
 
I think it would be possible to have this PM tied to an autotool that Admins could use for citizen removals. There was a script floating around that had that capability, as I had wanted to use it for new NPA members. Elu was assessing the "security" of the script approximately 18 months ago :P it would be nice if that could be implemented.
 
To be honest, I don't think that it would be a particularly arduous task for Admins to c+p a PM when they remove a citizenship, even if done manually.

An automatic PM/TG script warning people when they have or are about to lose citizenship would be quite nifty, if it is able to be (re-)setup.
 
Given all the other work admins do, especially with citizenship checks and the like, I think sending out PMs or telegrams as well would be a bit too much work for us. Especially as we are volunteers and some of us serve in other offices too.
 
It would be entirely possible (and not particularly arduous, as Guy said) for the Speaker's Office to manually send PMs via copy-pasting.
 
We currently have a few relevant AutoTools.

  • Ceased To Exist:
    1. Changes group to Former Residents
    2. Sends a PM titled "Ceased To Exist" consisting of "As your TNP nation has ceased to exist, you are no longer considered a current citizen (and/or Regional Assembly member). If you refound your nation of course you will be welcome to rejoin."
  • Left TNP
    1. Changes group to Members
    2. Sends a PM titled "Ciao" consisting of "As your nation has left The North Pacific, your information on this forum has been updated accordingly."
  • RA Inactivity Removal
    1. Changes group to Residents
    2. Sends a PM titled "Regional Assembly Membership Loss" consisting of "You have lost your membership in the Regional Assembly of The North Pacific because you have not met the activity requirements. You are free to rejoin at any time."
 
I Sometimes think folks do not realise just how many group/masking changes are done.

When a person becomes more active in TNP there can be a number of mask changes they go through: Validating to member to citizen to NPA (or whatever).

When a citizen goes inactive there can be a whole process, from citizen to REsident (retaining NPA masking), from resident to Former resident (removing NPA masking) etc. When the person's mask is more complex, for example for SC members or cabinet deputies, there are often other stages.

QUite often the Speaker's office informs us of a number of these changes to be done at any one time, sometimes more than once a day.

I do not mind - it is part of the admin job. But i do not fancy having added in the job of sending out a PM to those who lose citizenship.
 
As someone who lost their citizenship and had to go through the process of being re-masked and put back on the map, a preliminary message would have been most appreciated! I was ignorant of the 30-day posting rules, so the loss was entirely my fault, but had I received a PM, I would have certainly logged in to post just to keep my status active while my nation was on "vacation mode".

On that point, is it possible to "follow" certain threads or replies to posts and have them sent to our email addresses? My ambassador nation in The Pacific receives emails when someone sends me a PM or posts a reply/comment to something I am following.

It would be a great tool to remind people that the majority of diplomacy and discourse is done via this forum and not the direct NS regional forum. I'd be happy to chip in some $$$ for the necessary coding if people believe this would be worthwhile.

To me, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure and if we give a nation the opportunity to retain their citizen status rather than revoke it, then telling them, perhaps they would be more engaged in overall NS activity.
 
We aren't talking about preliminary messages, as I understand it. You would receive the message after you had been remove and you would be invited back to reapply.

You wouldn't have been removed from the map unless you had not been active at all (as in logging in) as far as I understand it, they don't have a posting requirement (could be wrong). If you weren't logging in, then you wouldn't receive the PM anyway.

I can't help but feel that part of this should come down to personal responsibility. It is nobody else's fault if a member is not active enough to make a single post in a 30 day period. This activity requirement is also useful for weeding out people who simply join multiple regions for the benefit of being able to read private discussions and vote across multiple major regions. A PM after the removal is one thing, I'd not be that keen on automatic PM's warning members that they will lose their citizenship if they do not post soon. Leave it to the responsibility of the players to maintain their citizenship.
 
I would suggest improving the PM texts in the member autotools I listed above and then using them.

It'd help, if we were doing that, to include links to the members profiles in Admin Requests posts. Would that be something the Speaker's Office would be willing to do?
 
Another issue though Eluvatar, is that many users have multiple permission sets that would then be changed by the autotools. That is why I prefer to do masking changes manually. Unless I am wrong, and the autotool only changes the group and not base permissions? Which would be problematic too, I would think.
 
Eluvatar:
RA Inactivity Removal
  1. Changes group to Residents
  2. Sends a PM titled "Regional Assembly Membership Loss" consisting of "You have lost your membership in the Regional Assembly of The North Pacific because you have not met the activity requirements. You are free to rejoin at any time."
Click to expand...
This should be adjusted, if possible, to reflect citizenship rather than RA membership.

Mister Masses:
On that point, is it possible to "follow" certain threads or replies to posts and have them sent to our email addresses? My ambassador nation in The Pacific receives emails when someone sends me a PM or posts a reply/comment to something I am following.
Click to expand...
Yes, you can subscribe to threads. I have never done it myself, but I *think* you scroll down to the very bottom and click the blue link that says "Track Thread".

I could be wrong, and if I am, someone should correct me. :P
 
mcmasterdonia:
Another issue though Eluvatar, is that many users have multiple permission sets that would then be changed by the autotools. That is why I prefer to do masking changes manually. Unless I am wrong, and the autotool only changes the group and not base permissions? Which would be problematic too, I would think.
Click to expand...

r3n has suggested that we only use override masks when necessary, and to shift to using joinable groups rather than override masks when possible.

I agree 100%.
 
Eluvatar:
mcmasterdonia:
Another issue though Eluvatar, is that many users have multiple permission sets that would then be changed by the autotools. That is why I prefer to do masking changes manually. Unless I am wrong, and the autotool only changes the group and not base permissions? Which would be problematic too, I would think.
Click to expand...

r3n has suggested that we only use override masks when necessary, and to shift to using joinable groups rather than override masks when possible.

I agree 100%.
Click to expand...
Okay.. But I am not exactly sure how that addresses the potential problem I have mentioned or the in-feasibility of using autotools for remasking.
 
Members who don't have mask overrides can be handled with an autotool and no other action.

Members with mask overrides would also require editing their mask overrides, yes.
 
SillyString:
Eluvatar:
RA Inactivity Removal
  1. Changes group to Residents
  2. Sends a PM titled "Regional Assembly Membership Loss" consisting of "You have lost your membership in the Regional Assembly of The North Pacific because you have not met the activity requirements. You are free to rejoin at any time."
Click to expand...
This should be adjusted, if possible, to reflect citizenship rather than RA membership.

Mister Masses:
On that point, is it possible to "follow" certain threads or replies to posts and have them sent to our email addresses? My ambassador nation in The Pacific receives emails when someone sends me a PM or posts a reply/comment to something I am following.
Click to expand...
Yes, you can subscribe to threads. I have never done it myself, but I *think* you scroll down to the very bottom and click the blue link that says "Track Thread".

I could be wrong, and if I am, someone should correct me. :P
Click to expand...
Ah yes, it's like reading the fine print at the bottom of a contract but I see it now!

On another note, I know there is a vacation thread, does one simply need to post their unavailable dates and the administrators will honor their citizenship knowing they are on vacation? This would have been most helpful for me as my lack of logging in had nothing to due with a lack of interest, just IRL stuff took precedence.

I agree that nations should take more responsibility for their own citizenship but sometimes they have to be reminded :)
 
Mister Masses:
On another note, I know there is a vacation thread, does one simply need to post their unavailable dates and the administrators will honor their citizenship knowing they are on vacation? This would have been most helpful for me as my lack of logging in had nothing to due with a lack of interest, just IRL stuff took precedence.
Click to expand...
Almost! There's a thread for Leaves of Absence in the RA area, and it's the Speaker's Office which tracks that information and will refrain from removing anybody who's gone during that time. Admins just follow requests from them.

Generally speaking, if you'll be gone less than a month, there's no need to request a LoA since it takes a month of not posting to be removed. You can always ask, but the Speaker might or might not grant it.

If you're serving in any government official position, though, you'll lose it if you don't at least log into the forum every 2 weeks, regardless of LoA status.
 
If I may clarify, citizenship is dependent upon posting withing 30 days of the last post. Government positions are dependent upon logging in within at least 14 days of the last login.
I agree that, if there are any PMs at all, they should inform a loss of citizenship, and not a warning that citizenship will be lost.
Also, we wouldn't have to PM for every change of status. I'm not sure what the difference of permissions is, but telling a Resident they've become a Former Resident, or something like that, doesn't seem necessary. Anyways, our primary concern, as I see it, is people not being able to vote because they didn't know they had lost citizenship.
I'll also mention again that if the Admins can't send the PMs automatically, and aren't willing to send them manually, the Speaker's Office can always do it. :shrug:
 
I should note, with regards to the fourth of these questions, on telegrams, I'm presently going through things with r3n to get those operational again.

I think that I largely come down on the same side as McM with respect to scripts that give notice prior to lapses, in that it is a matter of expecting some personal responsibility on the part of citizens.

I echo Quak's stressing that, if it can't be automated and the Admin team are (understandably) not wanting the extra busywork of manual PMs, then it is a task that the Speaker's Office can take on.

SillyString is also correct that, if possible, the RA inactivity auto-tool PM should now be something along the lines of "Citizenship loss" as the title and "You have lost your citizenship because you have not posted in the last thirty days. You are free to rejoin at any time." as the body.
 
I think we may yet become able to do use the autotools and therefore send automatic PMs.

Would it significantly increase workload for the Speaker's Office to link to the profiles of the members who are removed?
 
That would work yes. Auto-tools are available from the profile of the member in question and it does reduce the time needed to complete remasking requests.
 
quak1234:
Eluvatar:
I think we may yet become able to do use the autotools and therefore send automatic PMs.

Would it significantly increase workload for the Speaker's Office to link to the profiles of the members who are removed?
Click to expand...
By about 30 seconds, yes.
:@*!:
You mean like this? :
Citizen -> Resident : Eluvatar (http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/profile/197685/)
Click to expand...

Any of these would work:

Citizen -> Resident : Eluvatar (http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/profile/197685/)

Citizen -> Resident : Eluvatar http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/profile/197685/

Citizen -> Resident : Eluvatar
 
30 seconds is a gross overestimate. Links to profiles are right there in the rolls, the same place that the speaker's office goes to find out who needs to be removed. It would just take an extra right click -> copy target location -> paste.
 
Crushing Our Enemies:
30 seconds is a gross overestimate. Links to profiles are right there in the rolls, the same place that the speaker's office goes to find out who needs to be removed. It would just take an extra right click -> copy target location -> paste.
Click to expand...
Okay, you may be right on that. :P
However, wouldn't it just be faster for the Speaker's Office to copy and paste the names of the users into the compose PM, and then copy and paste in the standard message? It seems like it would basically be the same amount of copy+paste for the Speaker's Office, and the admins wouldn't have to do anything. Or does posting the links and having the admins use the autotools speed up the process? (Not sarcasm).
 
Assuming we've cleared up our great mess of override permissions, admins will be able to use an admin requests post that links to the profiles of the members to remove to implement the request in three operations: opening the profile, selecting the appropriate autotool from a menu of several, and submitting. This would change the member's group and simultaneously send them the PM.

This would be more efficient than the Speaker's Office making a request, waiting for it to be implemented, and then sending a mass PM. This would not be as confusing as the Speaker's Office making a request and simultaneously sending PMs while waiting for an admin to act on it.
 
Eluvatar:
Assuming we've cleared up our great mess of override permissions, admins will be able to use an admin requests post that links to the profiles of the members to remove to implement the request in three operations: opening the profile, selecting the appropriate autotool from a menu of several, and submitting. This would change the member's group and simultaneously send them the PM.

This would be more efficient than the Speaker's Office making a request, waiting for it to be implemented, and then sending a mass PM. This would not be as confusing as the Speaker's Office making a request and simultaneously sending PMs while waiting for an admin to act on it.
Click to expand...
This sounds like a good idea, then.
Edit: Do you want the links just for citizens who are being remasked, or for all remasks?
 
Zyvetskistaahn:
I should note, with regards to the fourth of these questions, on telegrams, I'm presently going through things with r3n to get those operational again.
Click to expand...
For reference, these automated telegrams are now operational.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top