What the börk is happening in Lazarus?

Syrixia

Syrixia

The one, the true, the great.
-
TNP Nation
Syrixia
Discord
TrialByDance#0419
Self-explanatory. Why are the embassies closing? Should we do something?
 
Syrixia:
Self-explanatory. Why are the embassies closing? Should we do something?
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They have a rogue WA Delegate, who is banning members of their region and their forum.
 
Not entirely sure the term rogue, fits 100% here Bootsie. It's a little more complicated than that.

um. hm.

It is important to note that in Lazarene society, the Chairman is the party version of an absolute monarchy. But one thing they cannot do, is remove the regional constitution without approval from the Peoples Congress, which was set up to provide checks and balances against the power of the Chair and Vice-Chair.

In this case, the current Chairman, Stujenske has dissolved Mandate 8, which is their name for the Constitution that defines the Peoples Republic of Lazarus. Previously, it was Mandate 7, which was one of the documents which defined the Emerald Kingdom of Lazarus. In my professional opinion as a Diplomat, I would say that the Peoples Republic of Lazarus no longer officially exists in a recognisable and legal form as mandated by Mandate 8, but that's not really here or there right now.

In addition to this, he also dissolved the Judicial Branch of Government, moving all authority to his office. Which was a violation of their Legal Code, which specifically named a Governor of the Judiciary to handle all matters relating to Justice. This does not of course, include the banning of former Chairman Funkadelia, or the unexpected banning and purging of several residents in-game.

I'm also told that the Chairman has hidden or deleted various laws, such as the Bill of Rights as well as obstructed attempts by the Peoples Congress to issue a vote of non-confidence against him.

As I understand it, most of these problems began when Stujenske edited the regional flag, but I suspect that there were issues beneath the surface for a while. He has altered the flag, now twice I believe from what was the legally recognised (and lawfully enforced) flag of the region from the Law of Official Images, to one which was reminiscent of the New Inquisition's Iron Cross (I did not manage to get a copy of that one), to another which is indicative of the Emerald Kingdom; pre-"Glorious Revolution" with The New Pacific Order's background on it (it's current). Which raises a fair few more questions regarding possible foreign involvement.

I am aware of a "Government in Exile", operating as the Lazarene Underground State, who contain members of the Peoples Congress and a General of the LLA (Lazarene Liberation Army), who have voted "non confidence" in the leadership of Stujenske. That vote is now open to all citizens of Lazarus in a plebiscite to determine whether Stujenske and Pergamon remain in their roles. The question is whether or not the two will recognise it, and I have doubts that they will.

Internationally, reactions have been mixed. The North Pacific; Taijitu; Spiritus and the Renegade Islands Alliance are withdrawing their embassies. I cannot comment more on that area for the moment. But I do hope the above is enough to answer some questions.
 
Lord Ravenclaw:
Not entirely sure the term rogue, fits 100% here Bootsie. It's a little more complicated than that.

um. hm.

It is important to note that in Lazarene society, the Chairman is the party version of an absolute monarchy. But one thing they cannot do, is remove the regional constitution without approval from the Peoples Congress, which was set up to provide checks and balances against the power of the Chair and Vice-Chair.

In this case, the current Chairman, Stujenske has dissolved Mandate 8, which is their name for the Constitution that defines the Peoples Republic of Lazarus. Previously, it was Mandate 7, which was one of the documents which defined the Emerald Kingdom of Lazarus. In my professional opinion as a Diplomat, I would say that the Peoples Republic of Lazarus no longer officially exists in a recognisable and legal form as mandated by Mandate 8, but that's not really here or there right now.

In addition to this, he also dissolved the Judicial Branch of Government, moving all authority to his office. Which was a violation of their Legal Code, which specifically named a Governor of the Judiciary to handle all matters relating to Justice. This does not of course, include the banning of former Chairman Funkadelia, or the unexpected banning and purging of several residents in-game.

I'm also told that the Chairman has hidden or deleted various laws, such as the Bill of Rights as well as obstructed attempts by the Peoples Congress to issue a vote of non-confidence against him.

As I understand it, most of these problems began when Stujenske edited the regional flag, but I suspect that there were issues beneath the surface for a while. He has altered the flag, now twice I believe from what was the legally recognised (and lawfully enforced) flag of the region from the Law of Official Images, to one which was reminiscent of the New Inquisition's Iron Cross (I did not manage to get a copy of that one), to another which is indicative of the Emerald Kingdom; pre-"Glorious Revolution" with The New Pacific Order's background on it (it's current). Which raises a fair few more questions regarding possible foreign involvement.

I am aware of a "Government in Exile", operating as the Lazarene Underground State, who contain members of the Peoples Congress and a General of the LLA (Lazarene Liberation Army), who have voted "non confidence" in the leadership of Stujenske. That vote is now open to all citizens of Lazarus in a plebiscite to determine whether Stujenske and Pergamon remain in their roles. The question is whether or not the two will recognise it, and I have doubts that they will.

Internationally, reactions have been mixed. The North Pacific; Taijitu; Spiritus and the Renegade Islands Alliance are withdrawing their embassies. I cannot comment more on that area for the moment. But I do hope the above is enough to answer some questions.
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What you have described seems to be almost a textbook definition of a rogue delegacy.

If Stujenske is NOT a rogue delegate, can you explain in what respect he is still operating within his constitutional mandate and boundaries?
 
Amerion:
What is the domestic reaction to this unfortunate incident?

Edit: does the general public support this usurp?
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Nope or there wouldnt be as much drama as this.
 
3 members of The People's Congress, 3 members of The State Council, all 3 army officers, the WA Marshal and various citizens are the members of the community and government-in-exile. And we are happy to see that The North Pacific has decided not to associate itself with the tyrant rogue delegate Stujenske or his oppressive regime.
 
Actually I just noticed the background of the flag looks a lot like the NPO's flag; perhaps they have something to do with this? After all, the first region on the Pacific's embassy list is Lazarus, and vice versa in Lazarus. They could be cooperating.

And concerning the LUS, can't we just send in a coalition of military forces and stop the rogue delegate Stujenske?
 
I am not certain that a handful of former government officials constitutes the true 'will of the people' in regards to the situation in Lazarus. If the nations of that region are not satisfied with the actions of their Delegate nation then they can unendorse it. Since that has not occurred, it would seem that the 'will of the people' is in the Delegate's favor.
 
You, me and everyone else who has been in gameplay for more than half a minute knows that isn't the case.

Coupers and tyrants love to play the 'will of the people' card and cite WA endoes as being something that matters in moral issues. It doesn't, and never has.
 
Nierr:
You, me and everyone else who has been in gameplay for more than half a minute knows that isn't the case.

Coupers and tyrants love to play the 'will of the people' card and cite WA endoes as being something that matters in moral issues. It doesn't, and never has.
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What are these 'morals' that you speak of? Can you tell me where they are defined within Gameplay?

Also, I took a look in Gameplay and only found the thread by Funkadelia. Is there another, more active, thread? As it stands, this discussion has more involvement than that one.
 
And the fact that 4 regions have closed embassies with Lazarus, in addition to the 3 that have publicly condemned Stujenske's action, most surprisingly LKE aren't an indication that what's going on is highly illegal on Stu's part?

As far as the low amount of natives that have claimed to support Stu, that number being no more than 3 (Perg, Grennland Dominion and Feux) I think it's safe to say the majority opposes him. Although calling Feux a native of Lazarus is a stretch if I've ever seen one. He may own the forum and IRC channel we previously used, but until the coup he had not involved himself with Lazarus in any way for more than 6 months give or take.

EDIT: By the way Nessuno, I LOVE those emoticons. They are so going in my stash! :D
 
Flem: The word I would use would not be conductive to this forums environment.
 
The Church of Satan:
And the fact that 4 regions have closed embassies with Lazarus, in addition to the 3 that have publicly condemned Stujenske's action, most surprisingly LKE aren't an indication that what's going on is highly illegal on Stu's part?

As far as the low amount of natives that have claimed to support Stu, that number being no more than 3 (Perg, Grennland Dominion and Feux) I think it's safe to say the majority opposes him. Although calling Feux a native of Lazarus is a stretch if I've ever seen one. He may own the forum and IRC channel we previously used, but until the coup he had not involved himself with Lazarus in any way for more than 6 months give or take.

EDIT: By the way Nessuno, I LOVE those emoticons. They are so going in my stash! :D
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Actually, no. The actions of other regions in regards to Embassy status has nothing whatsoever to do with the 'legality' of actions within a specified region.
 
Still, whatever the embassy status, we cannot deny that Stujenske's actions are illegal and un-Lazarene-constitutional. In my opinion he must be stopped! He regularly banjects people and suppresses posts criticizing his absolute rule!
 
Syrixia:
Still, whatever the embassy status, we cannot deny that Stujenske's actions are illegal and un-Lazarene-constitutional. In my opinion he must be stopped! He regularly banjects people and suppresses posts criticizing his absolute rule!
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If you can show me anywhere within the guidelines set up by Max where it states a sitting Delegate is beholden to laws set up by an offsite minority then I will concede the point.

As it stands, if the Delegate is able to maintain endorsements then it cannot by definition be against the will of the people and is therefore 'legal' by game mechanics.

If you are suggesting that the Delegate of Lazarus is somehow cheating the endorsement system then, yes, that would be illegal.
 
Absolutely no point in that. All it'll do is encourage condemn hunters to coup in the future.
 
Gracius Maximus:
Syrixia:
Still, whatever the embassy status, we cannot deny that Stujenske's actions are illegal and un-Lazarene-constitutional. In my opinion he must be stopped! He regularly banjects people and suppresses posts criticizing his absolute rule!
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If you can show me anywhere within the guidelines set up by Max where it states a sitting Delegate is beholden to laws set up by an offsite minority then I will concede the point.

As it stands, if the Delegate is able to maintain endorsements then it cannot by definition be against the will of the people and is therefore 'legal' by game mechanics.

If you are suggesting that the Delegate of Lazarus is somehow cheating the endorsement system then, yes, that would be illegal.
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This is mostly my personal take on things. I think that in this case, the ideology that the Delegate position and how it is obtained is the only really legal and term abiding part of the game must be weighted in
 
Why?

I mean, I could deploy my WA but there seems to be very little point to.
 
Elegarth:
Gracius Maximus:
Syrixia:
Still, whatever the embassy status, we cannot deny that Stujenske's actions are illegal and un-Lazarene-constitutional. In my opinion he must be stopped! He regularly banjects people and suppresses posts criticizing his absolute rule!
Click to expand...
If you can show me anywhere within the guidelines set up by Max where it states a sitting Delegate is beholden to laws set up by an offsite minority then I will concede the point.

As it stands, if the Delegate is able to maintain endorsements then it cannot by definition be against the will of the people and is therefore 'legal' by game mechanics.

If you are suggesting that the Delegate of Lazarus is somehow cheating the endorsement system then, yes, that would be illegal.
Click to expand...
This is mostly my personal take on things. I think that in this case, the ideology that the Delegate position and how it is obtained is the only really legal and term abiding part of the game must be weighted in
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It's a shame to hear that because it most certainly isn't how The North Pacific governs itself.
 
After doing some browsing, I've found that my above post is actually, factually true. And TBH I'm tired of the NPO endorsing dictatorships and having a dictatorial government (with an Emperor) themselves.

This coup would be a perfect casus belli; why don't we just form a coalition, liberate Lazarus and install a republic in the Pacific? Then there will be much less risk of this occurring again.
 
Gracius, sure, by NS rules the delegate is free to do as he pleases. HOWEVER the rogue delegate Stujenske agreed to abide by the laws set forth by The People's Republic of Lazarus. His decision to enlist foreign troops to subvert the constitutional government with which he agreed to serve is a violation of the trust placed in him by the other members of the community and illegal by the laws he voluntarily agreed to uphold.

If Tomb had decided to banject you, the members of TNP government and any citizen that refused to support him you would be of the same opinion as me and the other members of The People's Republic of Lazarus. You're free to be a hypocrite, but remember that the opinion of a hypocrite isn't worth the time it takes to express it. However if you would support a rogue delegate taking over a region you've invested time and effort into then maybe you don't belong in said region.
 
The Church of Satan:
Gracius, sure, by NS rules the delegate is free to do as he pleases. HOWEVER the rogue delegate Stujenske agreed to abide by the laws set forth by The People's Republic of Lazarus. His decision to enlist foreign troops to subvert the constitutional government with which he agreed to serve is a violation of the trust placed in him by the other members of the community and illegal by the laws he voluntarily agreed to uphold.

If Tomb had decided to banject you, the members of TNP government and any citizen that refused to support him you would be of the same opinion as me and the other members of The People's Republic of Lazarus. You're free to be a hypocrite, but remember that the opinion of a hypocrite isn't worth the time it takes to express it. However if you would support a rogue delegate taking over a region you've invested time and effort into then maybe you don't belong in said region.
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Well said, and I definitely agree. I can't believe what I'm reading from Elegarth and Gracius. :headbang:
 
Well, Elegarth is part of the NPO and likely is one of the pilers that are propping up Stujenske, so naturally the response is typical, if not shameful. As for Gracius, well let's just chalk that up to poor judgement.
 
Eluvatar:
Elegarth:
Gracius Maximus:
Syrixia:
Still, whatever the embassy status, we cannot deny that Stujenske's actions are illegal and un-Lazarene-constitutional. In my opinion he must be stopped! He regularly banjects people and suppresses posts criticizing his absolute rule!
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If you can show me anywhere within the guidelines set up by Max where it states a sitting Delegate is beholden to laws set up by an offsite minority then I will concede the point.

As it stands, if the Delegate is able to maintain endorsements then it cannot by definition be against the will of the people and is therefore 'legal' by game mechanics.

If you are suggesting that the Delegate of Lazarus is somehow cheating the endorsement system then, yes, that would be illegal.
Click to expand...
This is mostly my personal take on things. I think that in this case, the ideology that the Delegate position and how it is obtained is the only really legal and term abiding part of the game must be weighted in
Click to expand...

It's a shame to hear that because it most certainly isn't how The North Pacific governs itself.
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Nor did I ever said it should be. I just said it should be weighted in.

And BTW, to Syrixia, mind you, I am here as a CITIZEN OF TNP, as is GM, you should avoid making dangerous assumptions knowing how little you know.
 
Then tell me why my assumptions are dangerous by telling me about the NPO and how it works. I'm curious.
 
Syrixia:
Then tell me why my assumptions are dangerous by telling me about the NPO and how it works. I'm curious.
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I am not fond of educating the uneducated. Go and read GP for a while, since it seems to be your source of intelligent knowledge.
 
[me]sighs...

Gameplay forum. I shouldn't have replied like that anyway. I'm under quite a lot of stress, and I'm sort of SICK and TIRED of personal accusations, threats and what not. This is becoming harassment, honestly, and its getting on my nerves.

So what would you like me to answer? I can only answer as an INDIVIDUAL, not as the Emperor of the NPO, which I'm not. Ask away.
 
I've done some browsing around the NPO forum, and it seems like the Pacific is full of really nice and kind people.

So, that said, why are you guys helping a rogue delegate do unconstitutional and highly illegal acts?
 
The Church of Satan:
Gracius, sure, by NS rules the delegate is free to do as he pleases. HOWEVER the rogue delegate Stujenske agreed to abide by the laws set forth by The People's Republic of Lazarus. His decision to enlist foreign troops to subvert the constitutional government with which he agreed to serve is a violation of the trust placed in him by the other members of the community and illegal by the laws he voluntarily agreed to uphold.

If Tomb had decided to banject you, the members of TNP government and any citizen that refused to support him you would be of the same opinion as me and the other members of The People's Republic of Lazarus. You're free to be a hypocrite, but remember that the opinion of a hypocrite isn't worth the time it takes to express it. However if you would support a rogue delegate taking over a region you've invested time and effort into then maybe you don't belong in said region.
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Not to speak for GM, but while he wouldn't necessarily offer material support to a rogue delegate, he certainly believes the delegate has a supreme right to rule as he sees fit. You can say a lot of things about GM, but he's no hypocrite.

My own views are a polar opposite. The delegate's job is to serve the people. It's sad to see Lazarus in a state of upheaval because someone wants to play "King of the Hill." Sure, Gameplay, in it's simplistic construction, allows it. But to engage in it ignores the more sophisticated aspects like diplomacy, team-building and compromise.
 
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