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Secretary> O_O
[(time=1342663080)] ---
Eluvatar changed mode: +vvv Romanoffia Scandigrad Unibot
[(time=1342663080)] ---
Eluvatar changed mode: +v KiwiTaicho|Away
[(time=1342663080)] ---
Eluvatar changed mode: +v mcmasterdonia|work
[(time=1342663080)] <
Unibot> Eluvatar, I don't think this is going to be a productive meeting if we have Blue Wolf here.
[(time=1342663140)] <
Unibot> It sort of defeats the purpose of trying to get the cabinet together to reach a consensus.
[(time=1342663140)] <
Eluvatar> Thanks for the helpful advice.
[(time=1342663140)] <
Unibot> We might as well have an open public debate and watch us go in circles.
[(time=1342663140)] <
Secretary> I am tired of calling KiwiTaicho|away
[(time=1342663140)] <
Eluvatar> Then stop, Secretary
[(time=1342663140)] <
Unibot> Eluvatar, that wasn't advice.
[(time=1342663140)] <
Eluvatar> If need be moderation mode will be set.
[(time=1342663200)] <
Unibot> I don't feel the need to attend another public hearing on the matter.
[(time=1342663200)] <
Eluvatar> Right now I intend to discuss the matters of getting the new COuncil up and running.
[(time=1342663200)] <
Unibot> We had tons of those.
[(time=1342663200)] <
Unibot> I was asking for a council meeting.
[(time=1342663200)] <
Unibot> Not a public hearing.
[(time=1342663200)] <
Unibot> We were all looking for a council meeting.
[(time=1342663200)] <
Eluvatar> The item you mean is on the agenda
[(time=1342663200)] <
Eluvatar> for later in the meeting.
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KiwiTaicho|Other joined the channel
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Eluvatar> At which time it will be appropriate to consider whether to go to closed session
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Eluvatar changed mode: +v KiwiTaicho|Other
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Eluvatar changed mode: -v KiwiTaicho|Away
[(time=1342663200)] <
Blue_Wolf> I intend to remain observent, unless Unibot doesn't like me watching
[(time=1342663260)] <
Eluvatar> Let us begin with the first business of the new Council.
[(time=1342663260)] <
Eluvatar> Responsibilities.
[(time=1342663260)] <
Unibot> Blue Wolf I'm sure you have people to leak you information anyway.
[(time=1342663260)] <
Eluvatar> Unibot: please drop it.
[(time=1342663260)] <
Eluvatar> Who wants the responsibility of Minister of Communications?
[(time=1342663260)] <
Unibot> Excuse me, Eluvatar, but there was a breach of information and you did nothing about it.
[(time=1342663320)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other> Lol I love how I get here exactly on time
[(time=1342663320)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other> oh yeahhhh
[(time=1342663320)] <
Eluvatar> KiwiTaicho|Other: Winsor confused the time
[(time=1342663320)] <
Secretary>
[(time=1342663320)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other> Haha oh right. Sorry :|
[(time=1342663320)] <
Eluvatar> and Unibot, Romanoffia, and Scandigrad acting for mcmaster have been chattering away for an hour
[(time=1342663320)] <
Eluvatar> I just got here
[(time=1342663320)] <
Eluvatar> You and I are on time KiwiTaicho|Other
[(time=1342663320)] <
Eluvatar> lol
[(time=1342663320)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other> Ah okay then
[(time=1342663320)] <
Romanoffia> Oh, you silly people. ;D
[(time=1342663320)] <
Eluvatar> They're all early
[(time=1342663320)] <
Secretary> i hate myself now
[(time=1342663320)] <
Scandigrad> For the record, we accomplished nothing.
[(time=1342663320)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other>
[(time=1342663320)] <
Eluvatar> Yeah I saw.
[(time=1342663380)] <
Blue_Wolf> Hail progress
[(time=1342663380)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other> So how do people feel about their respective Ministries? I mentioned this on the forum.
[(time=1342663380)] <
Eluvatar> Let us get to business.
[(time=1342663380)] <
Romanoffia> Accomplishing nothing usually means doing no damage.
[(time=1342663380)] <
Eluvatar> 22:01 <@Eluvatar> Who wants the responsibility of Minister of Communications?
[(time=1342663380)] <
Romanoffia> I nominate Kiwi.
[(time=1342663380)] <
Unibot> I second that.
[(time=1342663380)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other> Well obviously I'll take it everyone wants to keep their current post.
[(time=1342663380)] <
Eluvatar> I suppose the other ministers intend to keep their posts.
[(time=1342663380)] <
Secretary> yay
[(time=1342663380)] <
Romanoffia> Of course.
[(time=1342663380)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other> So it would seem.
[(time=1342663440)] <
Eluvatar> KiwiTaicho|Other: are you interested in the Communications Ministry?
[(time=1342663440)] <
Unibot> Indeed.
[(time=1342663440)] <
Scandigrad> I love my post.
[(time=1342663440)] <
Eluvatar>
[(time=1342663440)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other> Eluvatar: This is acceptable.
[(time=1342663440)] <
Eluvatar> .weight_one Eluvatar Unibot Scandigrad KiwiTaicho|Other Romanoffia
[(time=1342663440)] <
Eluvatar> .chair Eluvatar
[(time=1342663440)] <
FriarTuck> Eluvatar: Done.
[(time=1342663440)] <
Eluvatar> Let us briefly vote on appointing KiwiTaicho|Other MoC
[(time=1342663440)] <
Eluvatar> .open_vote
[(time=1342663440)] <
FriarTuck> Eluvatar: Vote opened!
[(time=1342663440)] <
Eluvatar> .vote Aye
[(time=1342663440)] <
FriarTuck> 1 votes added to Aye bringing it to 1
[(time=1342663440)] <
Unibot> .vote Aye
[(time=1342663440)] <
Scandigrad> .vote aye
[(time=1342663440)] <
FriarTuck> 1 votes added to Aye bringing it to 2
[(time=1342663440)] <
FriarTuck> 1 votes added to Aye bringing it to 3
[(time=1342663500)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other> .vote aye
[(time=1342663500)] <
FriarTuck> 1 votes added to Aye bringing it to 4
[(time=1342663500)] <
Eluvatar> .in 30 seconds stop waiting for Romanoffia
[(time=1342663500)] <
FriarTuck> Eluvatar: Okay, will remind in 30 secs
[(time=1342663500)] <
Romanoffia> Aye.
[(time=1342663500)] <
Eluvatar> It's .vote aye >_>
[(time=1342663500)] <
Eluvatar>
[(time=1342663500)] <
FriarTuck> Eluvatar: stop waiting for Romanoffia
[(time=1342663500)] <
Eluvatar> Ah well
[(time=1342663500)] <
Eluvatar> .close_vote
[(time=1342663500)] <
FriarTuck> Eluvatar: Closing the vote.
[(time=1342663560)] <
FriarTuck> Aye:4
[(time=1342663560)] <
Romanoffia> I voted Aye.
[(time=1342663560)] <
FriarTuck> Aye got the most votes with 4 out of 4 (0 abstentions)
[(time=1342663560)] <
FriarTuck> Aye got a majority of the votes
[(time=1342663560)] <
Secretary> lol
[(time=1342663560)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other> Erm so I gather Scandigrad is acting for mcmasterdonia|work? xD
[(time=1342663560)] <
Eluvatar> Yes.
[(time=1342663560)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other> Okie dokie.
[(time=1342663560)] <
Eluvatar> mcmasterdonia so designated shortly before the official meeting.
[(time=1342663560)] <
Scandigrad> si
[(time=1342663560)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other> Righteo.
[(time=1342663560)] <
Eluvatar> Now, during that hour, the three of them started arguing for longer Councillor terms.
[(time=1342663620)] <
Eluvatar> I am firmly against making them a full four months, that's for sure.
[(time=1342663620)] <
Eluvatar> I will note that I'm under no obligation to call an election immediately upon the 25 days.
[(time=1342663620)] <
Secretary> yes
[(time=1342663620)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other> Hmm but you have to admit that was a pretty short term.
[(time=1342663620)] <
Eluvatar> Also that the term is 35 days, not 25
[(time=1342663620)] <
Romanoffia> Comment? May I?
[(time=1342663620)] <
Eluvatar> Yes please.
[(time=1342663620)] <
Romanoffia> The way I see it...
[(time=1342663620)] <
Unibot> Eluvatar, why should we serve short terms, but you serve a long term?
[(time=1342663620)] <
Unibot> Were we not elected too?
[(time=1342663680)] <
Unibot> And expected to remain active, the same?
[(time=1342663680)] <
Eluvatar> Technically I am facing the same frequent elections Unibot
[(time=1342663680)] <
Romanoffia> The Cabinet is largely a 'serve at the Delegate's pleasure' situation and,
[(time=1342663680)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other> indeed
[(time=1342663680)] <
Unibot> Not for delegate, Eluvtar.
[(time=1342663680)] <
Romanoffia> that if the Delegate is not satisfied with the cabinet...
[(time=1342663680)] <
Scandigrad> Is a Congressman not elected? They serve much shorter terms than senators.
[(time=1342663680)] <
Eluvatar> Half as short as the President, indeed.
[(time=1342663680)] <
Unibot> Years for god's sake.
[(time=1342663680)] <
Romanoffia> Then the Delegate can call for an election for the cabinet as a whole as per the directive.
[(time=1342663680)] <
Eluvatar> Three times as short as Senator.
[(time=1342663680)] <
Unibot> I am not an American.
[(time=1342663680)] <
Eluvatar> Unibot: I want TNP to be fast paced like the NationStates of 2003-2004
[(time=1342663740)] <
Eluvatar> not at the snails pace of 2009-2011
[(time=1342663740)] <
Eluvatar> or even 2006-2011
[(time=1342663740)] <
Unibot> And this is accomplished by derailing our activities.
[(time=1342663740)] <
Unibot> With constant elections.
[(time=1342663740)] <
Eluvatar> We'd have had a meeting last week if I wasn't overwhelmed outside NS.
[(time=1342663740)] <
Eluvatar> And Ator, actually.
[(time=1342663800)] <
Eluvatar> Five weeks is a long, long time.
[(time=1342663800)] <
Unibot> We were just getting in the swing of things.
[(time=1342663800)] <
Unibot> And these elections interrupted us.
[(time=1342663800)] <
Unibot> Five weeks is a ridiculously small term.
[(time=1342663800)] <
Eluvatar> Four months is ridiculously long.
[(time=1342663860)] <
Unibot> Then I guess we should recall you now then.
[(time=1342663860)] <
Eluvatar> And I do not agree that five weeks is ridiculously short, by any means.
[(time=1342663860)] <
Eluvatar> Go ahead and try.
[(time=1342663860)] <
Unibot> Wouldn't want you to serve as delegate too long.
[(time=1342663860)] <
Romanoffia> True, but in some instances disrupting things can result in chaos if the timing is wrong.
[(time=1342663860)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other> mm and what do you think Scandigrad?
[(time=1342663860)] <
Romanoffia> Not that I don't thrive on chaos.
[(time=1342663860)] <
Eluvatar> I do not think this election introduced chaos. Quite the contrary.
[(time=1342663860)] <
Unibot> I don't think it's so much chaos as not doing anything.
[(time=1342663860)] <
Scandigrad> I think this is hilarious.
[(time=1342663860)] <
Unibot> Thanks to us all being busy getting re-elected.
[(time=1342663920)] <
Eluvatar> There was nothing keeping the ministers from their posts in my view.
[(time=1342663920)] <
Unibot> Except having to get re-elected.
[(time=1342663920)] <
Eluvatar> There were 3 days of prep and then 7 days of sitting and sniping
[(time=1342663920)] <
Romanoffia> Actually, the elections did pretty much what a normal continuation of the previous cabinet would have produced.
[(time=1342663920)] <
Eluvatar> I would hope that the sniping didn't take much of your time.
[(time=1342663920)] <
Unibot> Because some of us aren't a safe-seat as the incumbent delegate is.
[(time=1342663920)] <
Eluvatar> And it stands to reason in my view that the best way to campaign as an incumbnet is to excel at one's duties.
[(time=1342663980)] <
Unibot> Or run on name recogonition.
[(time=1342663980)] <
Unibot> And hope the election distracts your political enemies from fufilling their duties.
[(time=1342663980)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other> I'm curious - since the council of five is a directive does that mean that as soon as we have someone who isn't elu, is there going to be no council of five?
[(time=1342663980)] <
Scandigrad> ^I was just thinking that.
[(time=1342664040)] <
Romanoffia> Given that there are required ministries...
[(time=1342664040)] <
Romanoffia> Such a council/cabinet would continue to exist even if by another name.
[(time=1342664040)] <
Eluvatar> It's entirely possible for the council to be granted legislated existence at some point during the next ten weeks.
[(time=1342664100)] <
Romanoffia> That's if the RA can be awaken. :p
[(time=1342664100)] <
Romanoffia> ed.
[(time=1342664100)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other>
[(time=1342664100)] <
Eluvatar> I don't think it can be called asleep at this time.
[(time=1342664100)] <
Eluvatar> But that's neither here nor there.
[(time=1342664100)] <
Romanoffia> I was just kidding. ;D
[(time=1342664100)] <
Unibot> Well, Scand, Roman and I were in support of longer terms, Eluvatar.
[(time=1342664100)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other> So - what about a compromise between 5 weeks and 4 months?
[(time=1342664160)] <
Romanoffia> I like the idea of longer terms personally.
[(time=1342664160)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other> As do I. Even if only slightly longer.
[(time=1342664160)] <
Eluvatar> So, I'd certainly be open to an informal compromise.
[(time=1342664160)] <
Scandigrad> Two months.
[(time=1342664160)] <
Unibot> Like, you agree to agree with us until you call the election in five weeks anyway?
[(time=1342664220)] <
Unibot> What do you mean by informal?
[(time=1342664220)] <
Eluvatar> It'd be 3 weeks and change actually.
[(time=1342664220)] <
Romanoffia> I say, since the cabinet is largely a serve-at-will determined by the Delegate, why not allow the delegate to call an election if the cabinet isn't working?
[(time=1342664220)] <
Unibot> Oh fantastic.
[(time=1342664220)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other> Well that's fine... but it would be nice to have a default term that's a bit longer at any rate.
[(time=1342664280)] <
Unibot> Three weeks is not enough to do anything with the pace of the RA and the justices.
[(time=1342664280)] <
Eluvatar> What kind of "anything" are you talking about?
[(time=1342664280)] <
Scandigrad> I'd say we've been rather successful.
[(time=1342664280)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other> And on a side note - isn't the whole purpose of this council that we have an equal say? If the delegate can just override everything and dismiss us at will - why did elu need to be nominated for the council to begin with? :|
[(time=1342664280)] <
Eluvatar> A four month term is generally 120 days + change
[(time=1342664280)] <
Unibot> Um, building a policy or proposal on anything and submitting it and getting it passed.
[(time=1342664340)] <
Eluvatar> KiwiTaicho|Other: I have not overriden or dismissed
[(time=1342664340)] <
Eluvatar> If you guys vote to change the directive, the directive will be changed.
[(time=1342664340)] <
Unibot> I believe you have.
[(time=1342664340)] <
Eluvatar> I am arguing.
[(time=1342664340)] <
Eluvatar> Debating, even.
[(time=1342664340)] <
Unibot> Well I see no reason for an informal compromise when we can have a formal one.
[(time=1342664340)] <
Eluvatar> I have no veto power in the Council.
[(time=1342664340)] <
Eluvatar> I think that Romanoffia agrees with the notion that the Delegate should be able to call early elections.
[(time=1342664400)] <
Unibot> I think you're handicapping the government from actually being able to compromise the objectives of a given term by pushing us into elections every month.
[(time=1342664400)] <
Unibot> *complete the objectives
[(time=1342664400)] <
Romanoffia> There are a number of good arguments on all sides here...
[(time=1342664400)] <
Eluvatar> I think that Romanoffia agrees with the notion that the Delegate should be able to call early elections if desired.
[(time=1342664400)] <
Unibot> Our long-term objectives for last term were not fulfilled.
[(time=1342664400)] <
Eluvatar> But I'm interested in the notion of a longer normal term.
[(time=1342664400)] <
Eluvatar> I want a good pace here.
[(time=1342664400)] <
Unibot> And I want a pace that gets things done, Eluvatar.
[(time=1342664460)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other> Two months would restrict that?
[(time=1342664460)] <
Romanoffia> Short terms can lead to chaos or machine functioning of ministries that leaves little or no consistent policies.
[(time=1342664460)] <
Scandigrad> So do a good job and get reelected.
[(time=1342664460)] <
Eluvatar> Approximately two months can work.
[(time=1342664460)] <
Unibot> Every month?
[(time=1342664460)] <
Unibot> Alright.
[(time=1342664460)] <
Eluvatar> It's not quite every month.
[(time=1342664460)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other> Can I propose a vote on a 4 month term then?
[(time=1342664460)] <
Unibot> Sure
[(time=1342664520)] <
Eluvatar> By that do you meant that the Delegate could *not* call an election for 4 months, unless there was a vacancy?
[(time=1342664520)] <
Romanoffia> Mainly, a cabinet is there to support/advise the Delegate and make decisions, and if the directive were applied so that the Delegate can call a general election to replace a cabinet in which he has no confidence, then the frequency of elections reflects politically on the Delegate for better or worse.
[(time=1342664520)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other> That's what I was thinking but we can debate the exact nature first if you want. I don't know how I feel about the delegate being able to call an election at any time though.
[(time=1342664580)] <
Unibot> Kiwi, were you thinking of starting at 4 months and voting each week down until we got to a term a majority liked?
[(time=1342664580)] <
Romanoffia> True.
[(time=1342664580)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other> Unibot: No I was thinking compulsory 4 month term. Period. No overriding by the delegate.
[(time=1342664580)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other> err
[(time=1342664580)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other> 2 months xD
[(time=1342664640)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other> not 4 >_>
[(time=1342664640)] <
Eluvatar> Ahah.
[(time=1342664640)] <
Unibot> Oh okay
[(time=1342664640)] <
Unibot> I believe 2 months sounds good to me.
[(time=1342664640)] <
Eluvatar> It was pretty much my original plan.
[(time=1342664640)] <
Eluvatar> But I figured that 2 councils for 1 term was kind of boring
[(time=1342664640)] <
Romanoffia> Two months as a general term of service sounds good to me.
[(time=1342664700)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other>
[(time=1342664700)] <
Romanoffia> It gives enough time to get everything in order.
[(time=1342664700)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other> Indeed.
[(time=1342664700)] <
Unibot> Do bear in mind, Elu that some ministies to get things done like external affairs naturally move slower.
[(time=1342664700)] <
Romanoffia> True.
[(time=1342664760)] <
Unibot> It's hard to have a success during a term as minister of external affairs when foreign affairs as a sector in NS moves.. sllowly.
[(time=1342664760)] <
Unibot> You can wait for a week to get an application recived for an embassy.
[(time=1342664760)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other> Indeed but I think two months is a good compromise for now. The next council can re-evaluate next term if need be. We can be the guinea pigs
[(time=1342664760)] <
Romanoffia> And slow is good when it supports stability and consistency.
[(time=1342664760)] <
Eluvatar> It was my expectation that people would generally run for reelection
[(time=1342664760)] *
Eluvatar shrugs
[(time=1342664820)] <
Eluvatar> It was an experiment and the people it elected don't like it.
[(time=1342664820)] <
Eluvatar> Now, for the present term.
[(time=1342664820)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other>
[(time=1342664820)] <
Unibot> I don't think it gave us time to finish the long-term objectives of the term
[(time=1342664820)] <
Romanoffia> Yes, but short terms means that more effort is expended upon getting reelected than running a given ministry.
[(time=1342664820)] <
Eluvatar> If we were to cancel the otherwise planned election in August,
[(time=1342664820)] <
Eluvatar> then this term would turn into 15 weeks
[(time=1342664820)] <
Eluvatar> *10
[(time=1342664820)] <
Eluvatar> Ten weeks.
[(time=1342664820)] <
Eluvatar> Slightly more actually, I think.
[(time=1342664880)] <
Scandigrad> I don't see why anyone would object to a longer term... just sayin'
[(time=1342664880)] <
Eluvatar> no, 9, I'm wrong.
[(time=1342664880)] <
Scandigrad> Or why anyone would object to a payraise.
[(time=1342664880)] <
Eluvatar> Yeah there's something here I find iffy.
[(time=1342664880)] <
Eluvatar> But presumably the RA will legislate it after this term such that it won't be self-adjustable XD
[(time=1342664940)] <
Eluvatar> Or we'll end up with a Long Council eventually a la the Long Parliament
[(time=1342664940)] <
Unibot> Erm
[(time=1342664940)] <
Romanoffia> Heh - interesting RL historical reference.
[(time=1342664940)] <
Unibot> The delegate would lose his re-election
[(time=1342664940)] <
Eluvatar> If?
[(time=1342664940)] <
Unibot> If he allowed that.
[(time=1342664940)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other> I think that we can allow the RA to discuss the length of our term when we look at proper legislation for the council of five.
[(time=1342665000)] <
Eluvatar> But in the mean time.
[(time=1342665000)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other> In the interim - two months is a fair compromise.
[(time=1342665000)] <
Eluvatar> Given that there are 9 weeks left in my term..
[(time=1342665000)] <
Romanoffia> In the mean time - I say we go with a two month experimental term.
[(time=1342665000)] *
Eluvatar shrugs
[(time=1342665000)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other> That makes it simple Eluvatar, propose legislation well before the end of your term.
[(time=1342665000)] <
Scandigrad> How long are we going to talk about nothing for?
[(time=1342665000)] <
Eluvatar> September 9th is kind of an awkward time to start the next Co5 election
[(time=1342665060)] <
Secretary> why?
[(time=1342665060)] <
Eluvatar> But fine I'll forgo the August election unless there's an outcry
[(time=1342665060)] <
Eluvatar> Because it's in the middle of Delegate elections, Windsor
[(time=1342665060)] <
Scandigrad> No one will notice.
[(time=1342665060)] <
Eluvatar> September 1st-17th.
[(time=1342665060)] <
Romanoffia> Just have the Co5 serve until an incoming delegate holds an election.
[(time=1342665060)] <
Secretary> agree
[(time=1342665060)] <
Unibot> Or chooses a different system for executives.
[(time=1342665120)] <
Romanoffia> IOW, a concurrent term unless the Delegate feels that the cabinet is ineffective.
[(time=1342665120)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other> Or we get legislation through the RA on the council of five
[(time=1342665120)] <
Eluvatar> I'd really much rather a 2 month term than a 4 month term for ministers.
[(time=1342665120)] <
Unibot> Do we want to force delegates to adopt the Co5 method?
[(time=1342665120)] <
Eluvatar> Let's move on from this subject.
[(time=1342665120)] <
Scandigrad> Concur
[(time=1342665120)] <
Romanoffia> I agree.
[(time=1342665120)] <
Eluvatar> That's the RA's call, not ours.
[(time=1342665120)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other> For the moment, indeed.
[(time=1342665120)] <
KiwiTaicho|Other> Eluvatar: Quite right.
[(time=1342665120)] <
Eluvatar> The next item is the NPA.
[(time=1342665180)] <
Eluvatar> First question.
[(time=1342665180)] <
Eluvatar> Do we wish to discuss the NPA in closed session?
[(time=1342665180)] <
Eluvatar> .open_vote
[(time=1342665180)] <
FriarTuck> Eluvatar: Vote opened!
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Eluvatar> .vote Abstain
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FriarTuck> 1 votes added to Abstain bringing it to 1
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Unibot> .vote aye
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FriarTuck> 1 votes added to Aye bringing it to 1
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Scandigrad> .vote nay
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FriarTuck> 1 votes added to Nay bringing it to 1
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Eluvatar> I retain the right to change my vote.
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Romanoffia> Aye.
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KiwiTaicho|Other> hmmm
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Eluvatar> Romanoffia: please use the .vote command
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Unibot> ".vote aye"
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Romanoffia> .vote aye
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FriarTuck> 1 votes added to Aye bringing it to 2
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Eluvatar> danke
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Eluvatar thinks.
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KiwiTaicho|Other> .vote aye
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FriarTuck> 1 votes added to Aye bringing it to 3
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Eluvatar> .vote aye
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FriarTuck> 1 votes removed from Abstain leaving it at 0
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FriarTuck> 1 votes added to Aye bringing it to 4
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Eluvatar> .in 20 seconds end
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FriarTuck> Eluvatar: Okay, will remind in 20 secs
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Secretary>
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Eluvatar> .close_vote
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FriarTuck> Eluvatar: Closing the vote.
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FriarTuck> Aye:4;Nay:1
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FriarTuck> Aye got the most votes with 4 out of 5 (0 abstentions)
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FriarTuck> Aye got a majority of the votes
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FriarTuck> Eluvatar: end
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Scandigrad> Perhaps we should consider muting the channel, so others may not comment, but may still watch.
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Eluvatar> I would like to ask the observers to please depart for this closed session.
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Eluvatar> We may end the closed session at any time.
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KiwiTaicho|Other> Scandigrad: that wouldn't be a closed session
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Unibot> Scandigrad that would defeat the purpose of a closed session.
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Scandigrad> But it is the main grounds for closing the session.
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KiwiTaicho|Other> I will preface my vote - with the fact that many people in here that would have to leave have expressed their vote in the forum topic
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Scandigrad> There are people here ya'll don't want to talk.
[(time=1342665300)] <--
Secretary left the channel
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Scandigrad> And the simple solution is to mute them.
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KiwiTaicho|Other> err their *view
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Unibot> I agree with Kiwi, I think BWII and Gov have made their positions very clear.
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Scandigrad> They can still watch, but not talk.
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Romanoffia> I move that we hold a closed session concerning the NPA issue as it relates to regional security issues.
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Unibot> And BWII and Gov are just here to grab quotes.
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Eluvatar> Which isn't bad per se.
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Scandigrad> They will get them anyway, since we post our minutes now remember?
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Eluvatar> We don't post minutes of closed sessions.
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KiwiTaicho|Other> Indeed.
[(time=1342665360)] ---
Eluvatar changed mode: +i
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Scandigrad> They should know what we are up to, since it directly affects them, being members of the NPA.
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Eluvatar> .in 10 seconds kicking time
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Romanoffia> Especially when security issues are discussed.
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FriarTuck> Eluvatar: Okay, will remind in 10 secs
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Unibot> Eluvatar, out of context quotations are bad.
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FriarTuck> Eluvatar: kicking time
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Eluvatar> I understand the argument Scandigrad but the council has chosen otherwise
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Scandigrad> They are NPA soldiers.
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Scandigrad> There is no "Security issue"
[(time=1342665420)] <--
Blue_Wolf kicked off by Eluvatar: Govindia
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Unibot> This isn't a security issue.
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Romanoffia> Policy is a security issue.
[(time=1342665420)] <--
Govindia kicked off by Eluvatar: Blue_Wolf
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Eluvatar> This is a discussion of the Council's position
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Unibot> Alright.
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Scandigrad> Policy that affects them as members of the institution that we are discussing.
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Scandigrad> But I digress.
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Eluvatar> That is the reason why I decided to side with the closed session argument, in the end.
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Unibot> Finally a closed meeting on the subject.
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Romanoffia> Can't run a military organization by consensus.
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Eluvatar> Not really no.
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Scandigrad> I concur.
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KiwiTaicho|Other> Indeed.
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Unibot> I believe that's a consensus :p
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Scandigrad> I've said it before.
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Scandigrad> *facepalm*
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Unibot> Anyways.
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Unibot> I put for a proposed amendment.
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KiwiTaicho|Other> Can we simply allow separate individuals to propose multiple acts to the RA and let them debate on the topic?
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Unibot> Or we could try to reach an agreement here
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Unibot> So we can propose one bill
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Unibot> And stand together behind it
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Romanoffia> This is an executive policy issue.
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Unibot> Instead of watch both bills fail
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Unibot> In the bickering
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Unibot> *watching
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Eluvatar> I do think we want to get the Council to make a proposal to the RA
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Romanoffia> This is an internal issue of the executive branch.
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Eluvatar> That said the input from the NPA has been informative.
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Unibot> The study was.
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KiwiTaicho|Other> Okay then - what changes do people propose?
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Unibot> The one I've already proposed.
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Eluvatar> My view is that Unibot's correction to match the intent would be better addressed
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Scandigrad> I propose that it is put forward as written.
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Eluvatar> through a change to the top of hte section
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Eluvatar> From:
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Eluvatar> 3. The NPA is otherwise permitted to deploy under the following circumstances:
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Eluvatar> to
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Unibot> I would vote against as written. Scandigrad and so would the Reform party.
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Eluvatar> 3. The NPA is permitted to protect regions under the following circumstances:
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Unibot> The Reform Party does not support unjustified aggressor missions.
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KiwiTaicho|Other> Eluvatar: I have no objections to this change.
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Scandigrad> With all due respect, why is the NPA being told how it should run itself?
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Eluvatar> It is not a sovereign entity
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Unibot> Because it bears TNP's name.
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Eluvatar> it is an arm of the region.
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Romanoffia> We need a general policy that precluded un-justified aggressive actions.
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KiwiTaicho|Other> Yes well there needs to be some sort of mandate to make things clear.
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Scandigrad> But I fail to see how anyone besides the delegate, and maybe the RA have a say in how the NPA should be run.
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Eluvatar> Were it to be a sovereign entity, it would no longer be TNP's army.
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Scandigrad> That is something that should be put in the hand sof the MoD.
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Eluvatar> Scandigrad, as Delegate,
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Scandigrad> I'm not suggesting a sovereign entity.
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Eluvatar> it is my will that my executive policy is guided by this Council of Five.
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Eluvatar> Decided, even.
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KiwiTaicho|Other> The RA is going to have the final decision.
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Eluvatar> The RA can always legislate to limit our discretion.
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Romanoffia> The NPA should be there for the purpose of supporting the region and it's policies and not for the entertainment of the NPA members.
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Eluvatar> But while it grants us discretion, it is this Council that decides the executive policy.
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Unibot> Unless it wishes to abandon the NPA's name.
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Unibot> And it's special priveleges of recruitment in TNP.
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Scandigrad> While we are on the subject of recruitment, why is the UDL attempting to recruit NPA members?
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Romanoffia> The NPA as an autonomous agent will ultimately undermine the region.
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Unibot> Who?
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Scandigrad> Just out of curiosity.
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Unibot> I've tried to recruit NPAers?
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Unibot> When.
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Scandigrad> I didn't say you.
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Unibot> You said the UDL.
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Eluvatar>
http://beta.primarypad.com/p/NPA_Act
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Unibot> I am the UDL.
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Unibot> What is it, Scandigrad.
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Scandigrad> So you constitute an entire body?
[(time=1342665900)] *
Unibot puts on his UDL hat.
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Unibot> According to most people who complain about the UDL.
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Eluvatar> Unibot: there are issues I'm investigating, but I do not believe that they involve you or recruitment of any NPA members
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Eluvatar> The story is somewhat involved and now is not the time for it.
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KiwiTaicho|Other> If we could please remain on track.
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Eluvatar> Precisely.
[(time=1342665960)] *
Unibot takes off his UDL hat.
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Romanoffia> Put in other words, if the NPA doesn't have a specific mission, it becomes a recruiting ground for organizations that have specific policies, raider, defender or otherwise. The NPA is there to support The North Pacific's interests, and not to be an autonomous actor that becomes a tool of whomever can exert the most influence over the members.
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Unibot> My pleasure.
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Eluvatar> You really should never put it on while we're in closed session.
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Eluvatar> Unless invited.
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KiwiTaicho|Other>
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Unibot> Well, answering Scandigrad's question as a councillor would have made no sense.
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Unibot> He asked me because I'm clearly more privvy to the UDL than other councillors.
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Unibot> I still have no idea what is going on though.
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Scandigrad> Moving on.
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Scandigrad> Policy.
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KiwiTaicho|Other> DId people support Eluvatar's proposed change?
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Unibot> Nonetheless.
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Eluvatar> I just proposed it.
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Scandigrad> We want a centralized military.
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Unibot> Can Elu just specify it again
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Eluvatar>
http://beta.primarypad.com/p/NPA_Act
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Romanoffia> Ultimately, a specific policy and paradigm needs to be set for the NPA so that it doesn't become a loose cannon that could undermine the rest of government policy.
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Unibot> Oh
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Unibot> Alright
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Eluvatar> For instance I believe the region is interested in relations with 10000 Islands.
[(time=1342666080)] *
Unibot nods.
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Eluvatar> That was the original intent of that section, was it not, Scandigrad ?
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Unibot> I think Elu's suggestion fixes the loophole.
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Unibot> 10000 Islands is considering withdrawaling embassies with TNP if it continues to raid.
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Eluvatar> That is correct.
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Scandigrad> Hold on. I'm doing a bit of reading up
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Unibot> And when I say considering, I mean.. slowly votin on it.
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Unibot> *voting on it
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Eluvatar> They didn't stop when I transmitted that the Cabinet had decided to have the NPA not raid?
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Unibot> With me telling them to stall till a bill is passed in the RA.
