Treize_Dreizehn
TNPer
So recently the Rejected Times ran a story by Gruenberg on the effects of vote stacking on the World Assembly. It was a mostly unobjectionable piece... except for one tiny tidbit: He claimed that the WA forums have little actual effect on the voting habits of World Assembly members.
So I feel it's only prudent to point out that while Gruen is a true believer in the views he's espousing, he is dead wrong. Let's examine exactly why the WA forum community is much more important than he gives it credit for.
GCRs and the WA:
There are 9 GCRs in the game (The Rejected Realms, The North Pacific, The South Pacific, The Pacific, The West Pacific, The East Pacific, Lazarus, Balder, and Osiris) and together (as of this writing) their delegates represent 1939 votes. Most votes are decided by less than 10,000 total votes. So the major delegacies (9 people) represent about 20% of the voting tally. I can accede the point that many delegates and a large portion of the average player base has absolutely nothing to say about nor to do with the GA or SC forums. But those that do participate have a tremendous influence on those that do not. Let me explain.
I am the WA Minister for two GCRs(TWP and Osiris), I place resolutions up for discussion and votes on forums, and I am usually given a wide latitude to express my opinion on the various pieces of legislation if I so wish. My input is valued because I have a long history in the GA, part of which is authoring. But we'll get to that in a minute. I express an opinion based on the value of the pieces being put to vote. Not to puff myself out too far(because we all know I love to do that) but my opinion matters. It matters a great deal. And I base that opinion largely on what I see in the drafting threads in the WA forums.
But let's take another step or two back and examine the biggest delegacy in the game: The North Pacific.
Almost 500 votes:
The North Pacific's delegate is r3n. And TNP's long serving WA Minister is Abacathea. I sat down with R3n to talk to him about this issue.
<Treize_Dreizehn> So. R3n, you're the delegate of a fairly large GCR. You have the largest number of endorsements in the game and a huge amount of influence in the General Assembly as a result. How does TNP decide it's delegate's votes?
<r3n> The regional vote of TNP is determined through a poll on our offsite forum. Everyone with a WA nation in the region is entitled to vote, and we usually receive somewhere between 6-10 votes in each poll. We try to create these offsite polls as soon as a proposal reaches quorum, so that the Delegate can "vote stack" and cast a vote immediately after a proposal goes to vote. This is to maximize our impact on the final outcome of the WA vote, by taking advantage of the so-called "lemming effect". For anyone interested, our WA voting policy is described in detail here: http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic/7194278/1/
<Treize_Dreizehn> Do you personally find the opinion of Abacathea, your WA minister to be important in formulating your own opinions on how to vote on WA matters?
<r3n> I do, yes. Abacathea is very knowledgeable on WA matters, and a prominent author himself. His reviews are always helpful in making an informed decision. This is especially true when it comes to General Assembly proposals: I have never been involved in the General Assembly myself, so I cannot make a thorough evaluation of the various proposals that reach the floor. In the Security Council, there are usually important aspects relating to gameplay diplomacy to take into account, and those tend to be what I primarily rely upon to make up my mind. Even there though Abacathea's reviews are a valuable source to consult.
After that I sat down with Abacathea.
<Treize_Dreizehn> So. How many votes does TNP have in the WA through the delegate?
<Abacathea> Last I checked it was about 460 I think?
<Treize_Dreizehn> And you post the votes in TNP, correct? When you do are you allowed to express an opinion on the piece going to vote?
<Abacathea> As Minister for World Assembly Affairs it's my job to post a thread (or r3n will if I don't catch it in time) detailing the proposal either at vote, or coming to vote, and then it's my job to post an appraisal of the proposal from there
<Treize_Dreizehn> How often, if you had to give a rough percentage estimate, does the regional voting align with your recommendation?
<Abacathea> Ehm, it all depends really. The voting populous are unique in the sense that no two nations really are alike. I suppose it's the unique thing about the game. When it comes to GA stuff, about 90% of the time, the regions votes and my own align, the SC can be a different animal though, people can be quite personally invested in the target rather than the piece
<Treize_Dreizehn> And how do you form your own opinions on the GA pieces?
<Abacathea> A lot of it is personal experience, as a resolution author, time in the GA has taught me what will work and what won't. What is a reasonable expectation and what is far overreaching. If there's ever a piece I'm stuck on and can't really form an opinion either way on, I'll consult the drafting thread and see what both sides are saying in the debate.
<Treize_Dreizehn> So in your opinion, do the WA forums have an influence on your opinions about legislation?
<Abacathea> Everything I know came out of those forums, and everything I don't, is usually clarified by either the forums, or someone who lurks within them. That's the great thing about the forums to that end, there's a community within them and a wealth of knowledge within that same community. So definitely.
<Treize_Dreizehn> Do you think you'd be WA minister right now if you never frequented those forums?
<Abacathea> Oh hell no, for one I couldn't have passed something to save my life without those within it. Glen Rhodes, Auralia, Araraukuar, hell even the United Federation of Canada, all were instrumental in beating me into shape for my first proposal to pass. And then twelve more followed. That spotlight was garnered with the help of everyone who came to me constructively on those forums.
<Abacathea> The list of authors I could thank is endless.
I don't think I can express just how much I agree with Aba's statements. And I'd imagine a number of other WA Ministers would also agree.
Drafting:
Now this is where things might get a little meta. See, posting a thread in the WA forums is good for your proposal, more often than not. It will help you refine ideas, give you an idea of the legality of the piece, and allow you to make arguments in favor of your proposal. A piece that didn't go through the drafting process is likely an inferior piece and will find itself voted down before the assembly itself. If posting a thread in the WA forums improves your chances of passing a piece of legislation, the idea that those forums are meaningless in the grand scheme of things makes little or no sense.
And that's the real crux of the issue. Gruen is a bit jaded, and a bit angry at times with the moderators. He is a great help to many authors but the cynical attitude he has towards the assembly and the WA forums should not just be accepted as fact.
The WA forums matter. And the people discussing things there are not just shouting into the void. They matter.
So I feel it's only prudent to point out that while Gruen is a true believer in the views he's espousing, he is dead wrong. Let's examine exactly why the WA forum community is much more important than he gives it credit for.
GCRs and the WA:
There are 9 GCRs in the game (The Rejected Realms, The North Pacific, The South Pacific, The Pacific, The West Pacific, The East Pacific, Lazarus, Balder, and Osiris) and together (as of this writing) their delegates represent 1939 votes. Most votes are decided by less than 10,000 total votes. So the major delegacies (9 people) represent about 20% of the voting tally. I can accede the point that many delegates and a large portion of the average player base has absolutely nothing to say about nor to do with the GA or SC forums. But those that do participate have a tremendous influence on those that do not. Let me explain.
I am the WA Minister for two GCRs(TWP and Osiris), I place resolutions up for discussion and votes on forums, and I am usually given a wide latitude to express my opinion on the various pieces of legislation if I so wish. My input is valued because I have a long history in the GA, part of which is authoring. But we'll get to that in a minute. I express an opinion based on the value of the pieces being put to vote. Not to puff myself out too far(because we all know I love to do that) but my opinion matters. It matters a great deal. And I base that opinion largely on what I see in the drafting threads in the WA forums.
But let's take another step or two back and examine the biggest delegacy in the game: The North Pacific.
Almost 500 votes:
The North Pacific's delegate is r3n. And TNP's long serving WA Minister is Abacathea. I sat down with R3n to talk to him about this issue.
<Treize_Dreizehn> So. R3n, you're the delegate of a fairly large GCR. You have the largest number of endorsements in the game and a huge amount of influence in the General Assembly as a result. How does TNP decide it's delegate's votes?
<r3n> The regional vote of TNP is determined through a poll on our offsite forum. Everyone with a WA nation in the region is entitled to vote, and we usually receive somewhere between 6-10 votes in each poll. We try to create these offsite polls as soon as a proposal reaches quorum, so that the Delegate can "vote stack" and cast a vote immediately after a proposal goes to vote. This is to maximize our impact on the final outcome of the WA vote, by taking advantage of the so-called "lemming effect". For anyone interested, our WA voting policy is described in detail here: http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic/7194278/1/
<Treize_Dreizehn> Do you personally find the opinion of Abacathea, your WA minister to be important in formulating your own opinions on how to vote on WA matters?
<r3n> I do, yes. Abacathea is very knowledgeable on WA matters, and a prominent author himself. His reviews are always helpful in making an informed decision. This is especially true when it comes to General Assembly proposals: I have never been involved in the General Assembly myself, so I cannot make a thorough evaluation of the various proposals that reach the floor. In the Security Council, there are usually important aspects relating to gameplay diplomacy to take into account, and those tend to be what I primarily rely upon to make up my mind. Even there though Abacathea's reviews are a valuable source to consult.
After that I sat down with Abacathea.
<Treize_Dreizehn> So. How many votes does TNP have in the WA through the delegate?
<Abacathea> Last I checked it was about 460 I think?
<Treize_Dreizehn> And you post the votes in TNP, correct? When you do are you allowed to express an opinion on the piece going to vote?
<Abacathea> As Minister for World Assembly Affairs it's my job to post a thread (or r3n will if I don't catch it in time) detailing the proposal either at vote, or coming to vote, and then it's my job to post an appraisal of the proposal from there
<Treize_Dreizehn> How often, if you had to give a rough percentage estimate, does the regional voting align with your recommendation?
<Abacathea> Ehm, it all depends really. The voting populous are unique in the sense that no two nations really are alike. I suppose it's the unique thing about the game. When it comes to GA stuff, about 90% of the time, the regions votes and my own align, the SC can be a different animal though, people can be quite personally invested in the target rather than the piece
<Treize_Dreizehn> And how do you form your own opinions on the GA pieces?
<Abacathea> A lot of it is personal experience, as a resolution author, time in the GA has taught me what will work and what won't. What is a reasonable expectation and what is far overreaching. If there's ever a piece I'm stuck on and can't really form an opinion either way on, I'll consult the drafting thread and see what both sides are saying in the debate.
<Treize_Dreizehn> So in your opinion, do the WA forums have an influence on your opinions about legislation?
<Abacathea> Everything I know came out of those forums, and everything I don't, is usually clarified by either the forums, or someone who lurks within them. That's the great thing about the forums to that end, there's a community within them and a wealth of knowledge within that same community. So definitely.
<Treize_Dreizehn> Do you think you'd be WA minister right now if you never frequented those forums?
<Abacathea> Oh hell no, for one I couldn't have passed something to save my life without those within it. Glen Rhodes, Auralia, Araraukuar, hell even the United Federation of Canada, all were instrumental in beating me into shape for my first proposal to pass. And then twelve more followed. That spotlight was garnered with the help of everyone who came to me constructively on those forums.
<Abacathea> The list of authors I could thank is endless.
I don't think I can express just how much I agree with Aba's statements. And I'd imagine a number of other WA Ministers would also agree.
Drafting:
Now this is where things might get a little meta. See, posting a thread in the WA forums is good for your proposal, more often than not. It will help you refine ideas, give you an idea of the legality of the piece, and allow you to make arguments in favor of your proposal. A piece that didn't go through the drafting process is likely an inferior piece and will find itself voted down before the assembly itself. If posting a thread in the WA forums improves your chances of passing a piece of legislation, the idea that those forums are meaningless in the grand scheme of things makes little or no sense.
And that's the real crux of the issue. Gruen is a bit jaded, and a bit angry at times with the moderators. He is a great help to many authors but the cynical attitude he has towards the assembly and the WA forums should not just be accepted as fact.
The WA forums matter. And the people discussing things there are not just shouting into the void. They matter.
