Refile the charges against Eluvatar?

Chasmanthe

Chasmanthe

TNPer
This poll is aimed at all Citizens of The North Pacific.

If you are not a citizen but you physically have access to vote in this poll and would like to vote anyway, I'm not going to be picky about it.

Edit: The
 
Are we REALLY deciding criminal proceedings by populist polls nowadays? Have we really sunk so low?

I am not voting.
 
Edit: It may be considered low, however, sometimes it is difficult to tell whether a course of action has many who would agree with it or not. Oftentimes, a course of action which has many people in agreement with it, is more likely to have some reasons to take that course of action. The reassuring thing about taking a poll is that the poll itself need not be the sole basis for a course of action, but a large number of responses may indicate the existence of people who hold reasons for that proposed course of action. If they hold such reasons then those reasons can be examined as to whether they merit the suggested course of action.
 
flemingovia:
Are we REALLY deciding criminal proceedings by populist polls nowadays? Have we really sunk so low?

I am not voting.
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Yes, that is what happens when Democracy descends into mob rules. And exactly why a Republic is a better idea. :P
 
I seriously doubt that either the person who filed the charges or the Attorney General (or, in this case, probably a special prosecutor) are going to act or fail to act based on the outcome of this poll. I don't really see a reason for this poll but I don't see how it's harmful either.

Although I somehow managed to click "No" by accident, my perspective is that the charges should be refiled. Not only does TNP deserve to see justice done here, whether that means conviction or acquittal, but the defendant also deserves to either be convicted or to have his name cleared rather than left in this limbo of "Guilty or not?" and have this as a permanent, unresolved issue.
 
Well, I welcome this poll as a much needed opportunity to discuss what we think of TNP v Elu in it's latest attempt at seeking justice for all.
To sum up recent events, we had a prosecutor who was "fired" by the new AG who can't handle the case anyway, as he is the defense attorney. One must wonder why the court allows a defense attorney that kind of power, but there you have it.
It then fell to the delegate to find a new prosecutor. On March 26 the honorable justice declared a one week deadline for that appointment to be made. On March 31 we welcomed Jamie as our new delegate. On April 2 the case was dismissed by his honor with the curious remark that everybody had already enough time to find a new prosecutor. Is it a slap at Jamie for not getting right on the stick and taking care of that as his first order of business? Or did the inconvenient timing of the elections make the judge's eagerness to dismiss the case just seem that way?

So, I think there should be more poll options. I would add selections like:
Let the case languish in the AG's office as he has no compelling reason to see his client prosecuted.
Refile with a prosecutor who has the attention span of a puppy with ADHD.
Take it to Flem's court and be done with it
 
Let's go through the biased self-serving condescension one claim at a time, shall we?

1) I fired PunkD. That is not true - I asked that the Delegate appoint someone else to finish the trial because I don't believe the Judicial system is served by having Judges act as advocates. I could have put on my defense attorney had and had him forced off the case, on the basis that his new status as a Justice granted unfair authority to his arguments in the case and violated my client's right to a fair trial. That would have been a mess, so I asked the Delegate to find a replacement. Would you have preferred the mess? Would've been more threads for you to bait in, that's for sure.

2) I did any of this with my "defense counsel" hat on. I did not. I publicly stated, prior to my election, what I was going to do, and why. I was completely transparent in my actions. I'd ask if you can say the same for your recent involvement in TNP's government, but then I remembered that you don't actually do anything but complain.

3) The Delegate was notified on the 26th. That is factually incorrect. I notified BW of the need a week prior to that, and court was adjourned for a week, and then another week, for the Delegate to find someone. Two weeks, not one. Reading subforums is hard, and comes dangerously close to actually participating, I know, but you should try it.

4) "Everybody" does include Jamie, yes. It also includes PunkD, who knew I was going to replace him from March 4th, when I posted to that effect in my campaign thread. He made no effort to pass the matter off to a deputy, or to find a replacement. It would not be appropriate for me to find a replacement, or to pick one of my deputies to do it, or to have any involvement in the process. If you've got a better idea, by all means share it - so far all I've heard from you is bitching.

Now let's look to your poll options...

1) I don't even have access to the relevant subforum with all the information. It's not my affair. The matter has been dismissed - I happen to think the Delegate ought to actually find a prosecutor, who can examine all the materials and determine if it's worth re-filing charges. I will not play a role in that process one way or the other - it's not ethical, as I've stated publicly on several occasions.

2) I don't know who you're talking about here, but it's good to see that insulting everyone who gives working in the AG's office a try is acceptable and permissible behavior now. I look forward to flinging insults at everyone else who gives enough of a damn to participate in any way more substantive than simply sitting around pissing on everyone like Waldorf or Statler. I'd give you credit for doing admin work, but we all know you do fuckall in that area, so you get nothing there.

3) Flem's court isn't real. It isn't recognized by the government of this region, not that that seems to mean a damn thing to you. It's nice to see how much you still care.
 
I... don't think it's appropriate for non-citizens to vote in an issue that involves TNP law and justice?

I'm not even sure I should be commenting as a former RA member.
 
So, my view that the "discussion" from GBM to Gaspo went from her being quite snarky to an attack by Gaspo against the snarkiness. I don't personally think it merits a warning, but it does merit a very strong admonishment to not take it any farther. There is no need to cross from criticizing game/forum actions into personal attacking. And it's daaaamn close.
 
Ok. I have not posted here often enough.. so forgive me.

TNP needs serious reform as courts go. If Flem and his religious court can get this crap done faster than our own court... something is wrong.

But, another thing entirely is the behavior here is this thread absolutely is revolting. You should be working together instead of tearing down each other's throats!

'Nough said!
 
mcmasterdonia:
I personally thought the case was a load of BS. Though I would have preferred Jamie having more time to select an alternative.
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THANK YOU! Some sanity among the madness.

That said, I feel that had Sanc been more lenient someone would have moaned that the courts are taking too long.

I think that perhaps the court system needs to be simplified. One side speaks, the other speaks, both sides are allowed a rebuttal and then the judges decide based on said information.

Evidence / witnesses can be collected and interviewed and if any of it is in question the judge can summarily rule on it.

I don't know if this is a solution but it seems better than the system we've got.

What about a jury type system and the judges simple decide points of law?

Anyway a few suggestions whether useful or not I'll leave it up to you lot.
 
The juries would usually skip out before the trial ended, plus, even though they were randomly formed, the defense and prosecution could both challenge members. I got thrown off a jury per-trial at least twice, both for mysterious and unstated reasons.
 
Former English Colony:
So, my view that the "discussion" from GBM to Gaspo went from her being quite snarky to an attack by Gaspo against the snarkiness. I don't personally think it merits a warning, but it does merit a very strong admonishment to not take it any farther. There is no need to cross from criticizing game/forum actions into personal attacking. And it's daaaamn close.
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QFT. This thread is being watched.
 
3) Flem's court isn't real. It isn't recognized by the government of this region, not that that seems to mean a damn thing to you. It's nice to see how much you still care.
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I hope this post will be taken as it is intended, as an honest attempt to open up some debate around this matter.

Of course the Fiqh is not real. This is a game. Nothing is real here, apart from the reality that we choose to give it. The constitutional court is not real. The constitution itself is not real. We are players of a game.

The Fiqh is a different system, based on African tribal system I introduced to TEP some years ago when that region was in transition. At the time it worked well there.

It is greatly streamlined, based on common sense rather than written law. It depends on the undertaking of both sides to abide by the result of the Fiqh. It is based on trust. In process it is rather similar to what Kiwi hoped for above.

Yes, it is based on religious roleplay. But is that any more absurd than any other roleplay we indulge in here? We take students, shop workers, homemakers, programmers and we give them titles like "chief Justice" "Attorney General" "Defence Counsel." The religious element introduces something quirky, unique (compared to the other feeders) and fun. But it is the system that matters - not the roleplay that is wrapped around it.

The Constitutional court does not work. It never has. Those who say that are decried, but evidence is on our side. The Fiqh has worked well, when it has been used.

Why does the Constitutional court not work?

What we have in TNP is a very complex system lifted (often wholesale) from real life liberal democracy and applied to an online game. It is a great academic exercise for some first year law students, and some fine, bright and dedicated people have tried hard to make it work for seven years. And it is still not working.

To dismiss alternatives as "not real" is odd, when you think about it. Perhaps it is time to think outside of the box, rather than just tinkering with what we have.
 
The answer to our legal system is drones. Armed drones. That deliver high velocity cheese projectiles.
 
*Smashes rum bottle on Gaspo’s head*

As I live and breathe! Goodness I must have touched a nerve somewhere...

Now the last time I checked the constitution that bit about free speech was not predicated on having performed great works. We are all free to whine and complain about the government. So for all the newcomers and passersby, you do not have to earn the right take issue with our leaders. It is a time- honored practice to criticize, lampoon, and poke fun at the foibles of the government. In fact, one of the things I tell young nations who are interested in running for election is that it is no business for the thin-skinned.

Moving on, I do find a number of things disturbing about the trial thread. When Sanctaria hands Punk D his hat with the words, “(a) you are no longer Attorney General and (b) the new Attorney General has already signalled he doesn't wish you to continue this case.” That’s the part that made it sound to me like Gaspo “fired” Punk. Plus overall it seemed that Sanctaria was unnecessarily short with Punk.

As McM said, Jamie could have been allowed more than 3 days to find someone suitable. BW said he tried and he’s the one who posted in the trial thread that cute line about the ADHD puppies.

Oh, and I had a terrific laugh about the comment on the Fiqh court not being “real,” and for all the reasons Flem put forward above.

Finally, and I know I am rambling, but of course I finished the rum before I broke the bottle… anyway, I am most troubled by the efforts that go into silencing the public. On multiple occasions I have seen threads closed when questions have been asked, or when folks want to discuss a decision. I have seen other people attacked for daring to speak up when they think something is not quite right. I wonder, if this thread was opened in “The Sidewalk in Front of the Courthouse Steps” instead of the Agora, would it still be open? I think it probably wouldn't. I've just got to say... Guys, you can't take this stuff so seriously - you'll get ulcers.
 
Great Bights Mum:
As McM said, Jamie could have been allowed more than 3 days to find someone suitable. BW said he tried and he’s the one who posted in the trial thread that cute line about the ADHD puppies.
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The thing about that is..even if I was given more time, I couldn't appoint someone since I have a CoI since I was THO in TNP vs Eluvatar, and would have had to delegate that responsibility to someone else. Granted, that would have been more possible, awkward, but possible.
 
I honestly think we all have COI's by now. I propose we outsource this case to TP. Their courts are wonderful and fast and efficient; they tried and convited a half a hundred nations yesterday.
 
Belschaft:
I honestly think we all have COI's by now. I propose we outsource this case to TP. Their courts are wonderful and fast and efficient; they tried and convited a half a hundred nations yesterday.
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I have no conflict of interest, do I? and JAL has offered to prosecute. I do not think he has any CoI.
 
Jamie:
Great Bights Mum:
As McM said, Jamie could have been allowed more than 3 days to find someone suitable. BW said he tried and he’s the one who posted in the trial thread that cute line about the ADHD puppies.
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The thing about that is..even if I was given more time, I couldn't appoint someone since I have a CoI since I was THO in TNP vs Eluvatar, and would have had to delegate that responsibility to someone else. Granted, that would have been more possible, awkward, but possible.
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How is that a conflict? Wouldn't having been previously designated as without conflict of interest mean you are... without conflict of interest?
 
Eluvatar:
Jamie:
Great Bights Mum:
As McM said, Jamie could have been allowed more than 3 days to find someone suitable. BW said he tried and he’s the one who posted in the trial thread that cute line about the ADHD puppies.
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The thing about that is..even if I was given more time, I couldn't appoint someone since I have a CoI since I was THO in TNP vs Eluvatar, and would have had to delegate that responsibility to someone else. Granted, that would have been more possible, awkward, but possible.
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How is that a conflict? Wouldn't having been previously designated as without conflict of interest mean you are... without conflict of interest?
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Perhaps. Regardless, it's irrelevant since I wasn't even given a chance to appoint a prosecutor, so the argument is moot, so to speak.
 
Belschaft:
I honestly think we all have COI's by now. I propose we outsource this case to TP. Their courts are wonderful and fast and efficient; they tried and convited a half a hundred nations yesterday.
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I don't understand why bringing up the conviction of over 50 nations with offensive nation names and mottos has anything to do with this...but alas, I guess taking pot-shots at TP for its effectiveness is the trendy thing to do these days.
 
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