Amendment to Articl 3, Section 8

[Romanoffia]

Article 3, Section 8 reads as follows:

8. If the Delegate is removed or unable to serve, the Vice Delegate will assume the duties of the Delegate. If the Vice Delegate is also unable to serve, the first available person in the line of succession will assume the duties of the Delegate.

Proposed amendment to Article 3, Section 8:

8. If the Delegate is removed or unable to serve, the Vice Delegate will assume the duties of the Delegate and serve the remainder of the departing Delegate's term. If the Vice Delegate is also unable to serve, the first available person in the line of succession will assume the duties of the Delegate. The Vice Delegate, upon assuming the position of Delegate, will be replaced by the next available person in the order of succession who shall assume the duties of the Vice Delegate and serve out the remainder of that Vice Delegate's term.

The purpose of this amendment is to eliminate the need for special elections and to allow those eligible individuals in the order of succession to assume these particular positions in the event they become vacant. Less confusing and time consuming given the opinion that it is largely pointless to have a line of succession when we immediately turn around and replace those people via special elections.

 

[Hileville]

If we just change Duties to Office it would accomplish the same with a lot less wording. The VD replacement would still need added though.

 

[Linkiton]

Wouldn't we still need elections to replace the person replacing the VD? If not, wouldn't that amount to a loss of democracy, where both the new VD and the one replacing them at their former position would be unelected officials?

 

[Romanoffia]

Wouldn't we still need elections to replace the person replacing the VD? If not, wouldn't that amount to a loss of democracy, where both the new VD and the one replacing them at their former position would be unelected officials?

It's not really a matter of 'loss of democracy' but rather a matter of preserving it and preserving continuity of government. It is almost an absolute requirement to have an orderly transfer of power in such situations rather than possibly ending up with rotating Delegates or chaos.

The way I see it is that the RA and hence 'the people' of the Region delegate our sovereign authority to the government we establish via a Constitution. The ultimate democratic say comes from legislation and amending the Constitution. We delegate the authority to act on our behalf to the Delegate anyway and can act to over-ride the delegate through democratic practice detailed in the Constitution and legal codes. Hence, no loss of democracy.

 

[MahendoSat]

Deny, an election bring stability. I've seen what happens when their isn't an election when a delegate steps down, chaos ensures. I don't have much experience in GCR's, I only stay in smaller UCR's, but, even in a UCR democratic government without a clear line of succession and elections people will fight over who gets to be delegate and it's just absolute chaos and destroys regions.

 

[Romanoffia]

Meh - Point being is that the function of the Vice Delegate is to replace the Delegate if the Delegate is unable to continue in that position. The order of succession is there in the event that such and event occurs. And besides, in the event that a Delegate leaves office a week before the term is up, why bother with an election when one is scheduled in a week or two? It's a matter of maintaining continuity of Government according to constitutional provisions.

Second, pure democracies are a recipe for disaster. It eventually devolves into either mob rule or a free-for-all state of power grabbing that Machiavelli would be proud of. And, besides, some people will always be fighting about who is in charge democracy or not. That's just the nature of things.

If a Delegate steps down, the purpose of an orderly line of succession is designed precisely to prevent chaos and power-grabbing from happening. That is, in fact, why we have a Security Council in the first place.

 

[Funkadelia]

8. If the Delegate is removed or unable to serve, the Vice Delegate will assume the duties office of the Delegate and serve the remainder of the departing Delegate's term. If the Vice Delegate is also unable to serve, the first available person in the line of succession will assume the duties office of the Delegate. The office of the Vice Delegate, upon the current Vice Delegate assuming the position of Delegate, will be replaced assumed by the next available person in the order of succession who shall assume the duties of the Vice Delegate and they will serve out the remainder of that Vice Delegate's term.

How about this amendment to your amendment? It's a bit more wordy, but makes it less ambiguous. This will most likely conflict with current laws dictating special elections, however we could fix that most simply by adding a clause stating this supersedes legislation on special elections.

 

[Funkadelia]

I am going to give a window of 24 further hours for this discussion, and will then move Romanoffia's proposed law change, with my amendment to a vote.

 

[Romanoffia]

8. If the Delegate is removed or unable to serve, the Vice Delegate will assume the duties office of the Delegate and serve the remainder of the departing Delegate's term. If the Vice Delegate is also unable to serve, the first available person in the line of succession will assume the duties office of the Delegate. The office of the Vice Delegate, upon the current Vice Delegate assuming the position of Delegate, will be replaced assumed by the next available person in the order of succession who shall assume the duties of the Vice Delegate and they will serve out the remainder of that Vice Delegate's term.

How about this amendment to your amendment? It's a bit more wordy, but makes it less ambiguous. This will most likely conflict with current laws dictating special elections, however we could fix that most simply by adding a clause stating this supersedes legislation on special elections.

Excellent clean-up of the wording. I submit that we put up the wording as you have amended!

 

[Funkadelia]

Motion to vote on the final draft of the amendment (my text).

 

[Hileville]

Second.

 

[Crushing Our Enemies]

Could someone put it in clear legislative format (e.g. X clause of the Legal Code will be replaced with the following)? As it stands, it doesn't actually have any legally binding effect, merely states a suggested amendment.

 

[Funkadelia]

Amendment to Article 3, Section 8 of the North Pacific Constitution:

Article 3, Section 8 will be amended to read:

8. If the Delegate is removed or unable to serve, the Vice Delegate will assume the duties office of the Delegate and serve the remainder of the departing Delegate's term. If the Vice Delegate is also unable to serve, the first available person in the line of succession will assume the duties office of the Delegate. The office of the Vice Delegate, upon the current Vice Delegate assuming the position of Delegate, will be replaced assumed by the next available person in the order of succession who shall assume the duties of the Vice Delegate and they will serve out the remainder of that Vice Delegate's term.

 

[Crushing Our Enemies]

This will move to a vote within 48 hours.

 

[Crushing Our Enemies]

Actually, I just noticed that your post above, where you attempted to post the proposal in legislative language, contains several words that were deleted in the proposal you moved, and Hileville seconded. Here's my interpretation of events:

1. A non-proposal was made (one that is not in legislative language, and thus has no legal effect.)
2. That non-proposal was moved and seconded.
3. A completely different proposal was posted, in legislative language.

In light of that, there is currently no motion on the floor. If any proposal is going to go to vote, it needs to be in legislative language BEFORE it is moved and seconded.

 

[Funkadelia]

Mr. Speaker, it was agreed to that the final bill that you had on the floor moments ago was the final bill. It was NOT completely different, as in case you did not read the thread, the bill was changed (as these things happen in a debate thread) and agreed to by the author of the original, and was moved to a vote. The fact of the matter is that there was a motion to vote on a piece of legislature. You asked for it in final legalese form. I gave it to you. It was implied that it was mutually understood that that was what was being moved to vote.

 

[Crushing Our Enemies]

What I'm saying is that this proposal is not congruent with this proposal.

Specifically, it contains words that were struck in the proposal you motioned, and Hile seconded:

Amendment to Article 3, Section 8 of the North Pacific Constitution:

Article 3, Section 8 will be amended to read:

8. If the Delegate is removed or unable to serve, the Vice Delegate will assume the [bgcolor=yellow]duties[/bgcolor] office of the Delegate and serve the remainder of the departing Delegate's term. If the Vice Delegate is also unable to serve, the first available person in the line of succession will assume the [bgcolor=yellow]duties[/bgcolor] office of the Delegate. The office of the Vice Delegate, upon the current Vice Delegate assuming the position of Delegate, will be [bgcolor=yellow]replaced [/bgcolor]assumed by the next available person in the order of succession [bgcolor=yellow]who shall assume the duties of the Vice Delegate[/bgcolor] and they will serve out the remainder of that Vice Delegate's term.

Highlighting is mine, but the highlighted words are yours.

You didn't actually remove any of the text that was struck - you just copied it wholesale into a quote box. That's not the same proposal.

 

[Funkadelia]

Oh, I see. There were not words deleted, but colorations/font alterations that should have been rectified. I am going to repost what it should have said momentarily.

 

[Funkadelia]

Amendment to Article 3, Section 8 of the North Pacific Constitution:

Article 3, Section 8 will be amended to read:

8. If the Delegate is removed or unable to serve, the Vice Delegate will assume the office of the Delegate and serve the remainder of the departing Delegate's term. If the Vice Delegate is also unable to serve, the first available person in the line of succession will assume the office of the Delegate. The office of the Vice Delegate, upon the current Vice Delegate assuming the position of Delegate, will be assumed by the next available person in the order of succession and they will serve out the remainder of that Vice Delegate's term.

This should be satisfactory, Mr. Speaker. I do not believe this calls for a remotion or another second, as this was the agreed upon motion and second, there were just functional issues following.

 

[Crushing Our Enemies]

And just so I don't fall into this kind of mess again, I'll need to see another motion and second before I move it to vote.

 

[Funkadelia]

I motion for a vote on the above last posted legislatively worded amendment proposal.

 

[Hileville]

second

 

[Crushing Our Enemies]

This will move to a vote presently.

EDIT: Just so we're clear, the reason I required another motion and a second wasn't to make you guys jump through pointless procedural hoops. I really do see my role as a facilitator of legislation, and want to see the will of the RA carried out as smoothly as possible. It's just that if your latest version still had errors in it, possibly ones that I didn't catch the first time, I wouldn't have to take it down again and restart. Essentially, it places the onus of error-checking on the people proposing, motioning, and seconding, where it belongs, instead of on the speaker.

 

[richalpoaz]

It should spell it the line of succession

 

[Great Bights Mum]

I voted against, mainly because in the event of a rapid departure of both the Delegate and Vice Delegate, I think it would be better for the RA to elect someone rather than have an SC member automatically step up to complete the term.

Also, because I really like elections.

 

[Kiwi]

I voted against, mainly because in the event of a rapid departure of both the Delegate and Vice Delegate, I think it would be better for the RA to elect someone rather than have an SC member automatically step up to complete the term.

Also, because I really like elections.

Exactly.

ELECTIONS! ELECTIONS! ELECTIONS!