Regional Forum Amendment

Cormac

Cormac

TNPer
TNP Nation
Cormactopia III
Discord
Cormac#0804
Regional Forum Amendment

1. Article 7 of the Constitution of The North Pacific shall be amended to read as follows:

Article 7. The Regional Forum

1. The Regional Forum will be located at http://s13.zetaboards.com/TNP/ unless lawfully relocated according to the terms of this Constitution.
2. Violation of forum Terms Of Service and moderation policies will be the responsibility of forum administration.
3. The organization of the forum shall be determined by law or, in the absence of law, by executive directive of the Delegate. Forum administration must implement laws or executive directives related to forum organization within two weeks of passage. Should forum administration fail to do so, the Delegate may change the location of the Regional Forum if a simple majority of votes cast in the Regional Assembly consent to relocation.
4. The Delegate may, if a simple majority of votes cast in the Regional Assembly consent, change the location of the Regional Forum if forum administration takes upon itself any power not delegated to it by this Constitution or by the laws of The North Pacific.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Fairly straightforward. We've seen requests for forum reorganization flat out denied or not acted upon for weeks at a time by forum administration. While we all recognize that forum administrators are human beings and volunteers and while we all appreciate the work that they do, and while we all share concerns about Grosse's health conditions and wish him well, this is not about individuals. It's about the government rather than forum administration having the power to govern the region in all but matters vital to forum safety and security, forum administration being required to acknowledge and comply with that right, and providing a check against the only body of power in our region that is currently left unchecked.
 
I'd be in favour of either this or of removing the piece completely. There may come a situation where we have to change forums. Having to have a constitutional amendment to do that is not something I'd support and is, at best, bothersome and, at worst, potentially dangerous.
 
I'm in support, however we may want to clarify the following;

4. The Delegate may, if a simple majority of votes cast in the Regional Assembly consent, change the location of the Regional Forum if forum administration takes upon itself any power not delegated to it by this Constitution or by the laws of The North Pacific.
Click to expand...

Presently I don't believe the laws or constitution give the admin any power, so technically anything they do would be illegal via this.
 
The Constitution establishes that Forum administration is responsible for enforcing terms of service and moderation policies.
 
#4 (as was said) is unnecessary. Especially if you already have added the clause about voting to change forums. The delegate should not have the ability to play around with the forums however they see fit. That will just mean we enact a bunch of laws related to what the forum has to look like.

The only part of what you added that I would be in favor of adding would be some kind of clause to have the regional assembly vote on changing forums. And I would much rather the higher 2/3 vote on that. Although technically, couldn't the constitution just be amended under existing laws to change point 1's URL?
 
Hm. I think we have had situations before where the Delegate switched forums and it wasn't all it was cracked up to be. What if the RA wants to change and the Delegate doesn't?
 
When I have time I will expound a thorough argument. Below is its outline:

1) A forum move should have a great consensus behind it. Moves without such consensus have had ugly results. For example, the forum move immediately before the Pixiedance wars definitely set the stage for them.

2) The organization of the forum is a complicated business involving many parties, not just the executive branch of the government. The Regional Assembly, Security Council, Court, and Attorney General are all independent entities with rights.

3) The proposal as written is execrably vague: what does it mean for forum administration to take upon itself any power not delegated to it? Read literally, administration would be prohibited from managing the archives, adding useful features, or even altering the skin without a bill passed through the Regional Assembly.
 
Since the above was just the outline, I'll wait until you've posted your entire argument before responding. There are points here I could rebut but you may be planning to go over them more thoroughly, as you've indicated.
 
It would be nice if the Admins would cooperate with the government when the requests are made, rather than after weeks of pressure. I believe that is the reason this has been introduced to the Regional Assembly.

I would say, that I think the expanded Root Administrator team should assist with making the Admin team less hostile towards the elected government. However, this really depends on the attitude of the team and their new found responsibilities. Only time will tell.

The Forum is certainly a vital part of our community, where the government is elected, and where most of it's business is conducted. It really falls to the Administrations conscience if they are happy to ignore the democratic will of the people, in order to satisfy what they consider to be the 'ideal' forum.

As I have said to some of the administrators before, and some of them themselves have been aware of discussions on IRC and elsewhere about moving the forum. I have absolutely no intention of moving the forum in violation of the constitution. However Administration must be aware that if they continue to be perceived as ignoring the wishes of the elected government, this will continue to be brought up. Just something to think about.

I hope that with an expanded Admin team, that we will see a rejuvenated and quicker acting admin team, as well as one that is more receptive to the ideas of the government. However, only time will tell.
 
Since we're talking about administrative response to elected government, I am happy to report that Eluvatar has been nothing but helpful and cooperative on the legislative side of things, with regard to security checks and prompt remasking of RA members who have been removed from the rolls, among other things.
 
Crushing Our Enemies:
Since we're talking about administrative response to elected government, I am happy to report that Eluvatar has been nothing but helpful and cooperative on the legislative side of things, with regard to security checks and prompt remasking of RA members who have been removed from the rolls, among other things.
Click to expand...
After weeks of pressure. Take a look at how long some of the applications were taking only two weeks before you were elected.
 
mcmasterdonia:
Crushing Our Enemies:
Since we're talking about administrative response to elected government, I am happy to report that Eluvatar has been nothing but helpful and cooperative on the legislative side of things, with regard to security checks and prompt remasking of RA members who have been removed from the rolls, among other things.
Click to expand...
After weeks of pressure. Take a look at how long some of the applications were taking only two weeks before you were elected.
Click to expand...
In all fairness, that may be due to our Speaker instead of our admins :)
Seriously though, this one tears me in many ways. I support the administration and their good judgement, and I don't wish to give the Delegate or the government at large too much power or influence over how it's actually run- when you begin to incorporate the medium with the laws, the overlap does not tend to be good. We saw this when we attempted to officialize the IRC channel. It's not completely win-win to merge the two, though it might be different on the forum.

My suggestion: government areas. work it out :) I got no solutions on this one.
 
mcmasterdonia:
Crushing Our Enemies:
Since we're talking about administrative response to elected government, I am happy to report that Eluvatar has been nothing but helpful and cooperative on the legislative side of things, with regard to security checks and prompt remasking of RA members who have been removed from the rolls, among other things.
Click to expand...
After weeks of pressure. Take a look at how long some of the applications were taking only two weeks before you were elected.
Click to expand...
I can only speak to my personal experience as a government official, and let others take it in context.
 
Crushing Our Enemies:
mcmasterdonia:
Crushing Our Enemies:
Since we're talking about administrative response to elected government, I am happy to report that Eluvatar has been nothing but helpful and cooperative on the legislative side of things, with regard to security checks and prompt remasking of RA members who have been removed from the rolls, among other things.
Click to expand...
After weeks of pressure. Take a look at how long some of the applications were taking only two weeks before you were elected.
Click to expand...
I can only speak to my personal experience as a government official, and let others take it in context.
Click to expand...
:tb1: :unsure: :blink:

I think we should see how the admin team expands, and how it's activity goes in the next few weeks.
 
mcmasterdonia:
Crushing Our Enemies:
mcmasterdonia:
Crushing Our Enemies:
Since we're talking about administrative response to elected government, I am happy to report that Eluvatar has been nothing but helpful and cooperative on the legislative side of things, with regard to security checks and prompt remasking of RA members who have been removed from the rolls, among other things.
Click to expand...
After weeks of pressure. Take a look at how long some of the applications were taking only two weeks before you were elected.
Click to expand...
I can only speak to my personal experience as a government official, and let others take it in context.
Click to expand...
:tb1: :unsure: :blink:

I think we should see how the admin team expands, and how it's activity goes in the next few weeks.
Click to expand...
I have no idea what you were trying to say there COE lol.

Anyway the Admin team have taken the feedback and are trying to do better. That's all we can really ask for. I particularly appreciate the initiative that is being taken to increase the admin team, even if it was after lots of moaning.

For now, I don't think we need this change. Thank you, regardless Cormac, I enjoyed the discussion this prompted.
 
It would be nice if the Admins would cooperate with the government when the requests are made, rather than after weeks of pressure. I believe that is the reason this has been introduced to the Regional Assembly.
Click to expand...
I think it depends which requests you're talking about. Recapping the recent past (since you have been delegate), Grosse was the only root admin, Flem felt he was admin as long as he didn't make any huge changes (ie forum structure) and Elu generally ended up doing most of the admin tasks, both generic registration check stuff and pretty background coding. When the RA requests take weeks of "pressure" then there might be a legitimate problem, but forum structure stuff should take awhile.

I would say, that I think the expanded Root Administrator team should assist with making the Admin team less hostile towards the elected government. However, this really depends on the attitude of the team and their new found responsibilities. Only time will tell.
Click to expand...
Honey.... you haven't SEEN hostile admins towards the government. ;)

The Forum is certainly a vital part of our community, where the government is elected, and where most of it's business is conducted. It really falls to the Administrations conscience if they are happy to ignore the democratic will of the people, in order to satisfy what they consider to be the 'ideal' forum.
Click to expand...
I'm sorry, but this proposal says *nothing* about the democratic will of the people. It puts power to change things in the hands of ONE person. The delegate.

As I have said to some of the administrators before, and some of them themselves have been aware of discussions on IRC and elsewhere about moving the forum. I have absolutely no intention of moving the forum in violation of the constitution. However Administration must be aware that if they continue to be perceived as ignoring the wishes of the elected government, this will continue to be brought up. Just something to think about.

I hope that with an expanded Admin team, that we will see a rejuvenated and quicker acting admin team, as well as one that is more receptive to the ideas of the government. However, only time will tell.
Click to expand...
Personally, as a citizen of TNP, I find it *annoying* to have the forum change constantly (structure wise). Things aren't where you expect them to be and you find yourself searching for the "right" forum to put things. I don't think 1 person should be in charge of suggesting changes. If you honestly think your changes are worthwhile, we have a suggestions thread, no? Or you can start one in the admin area. Get people to sign on that they also support it and we have a discussion.
 
If you read my post Erastide, you would fine I am not advocating for a move of forum.

As to my requests, a read over the admin requests would see how long it took. And yes as I said the expanded root admin team will make this easier as they have the power to make the decisions themselves.
 
For those who are having trouble understanding my comments, this is what they mean:
  • In my limited experience, the admin team has been nothing but helpful and cooperative.
  • OUTSIDE my limited experience, I'm not qualified to comment.
 
In response to my question about what would happen if the RA wants to change the forum and the Delegate doesn't, Elu said:

Eluvatar:
I suppose in that case Cormac envisions the RA amending this section of the Constitution.
Click to expand...
And that would of course be sometime after the Delegate has already moved the forum and declared martial law?

Among the things I find disconcerting about the proposal is its tone. "So and so must" and "If they fail to..." If you compare it to the language used in our other laws, it sounds harsh. Like it's just spoiling for a fight.
 
To be fair, this section of Chapter 6 of the Legal Code is slightly bellicose:
13. Unless granted permission otherwise by the Assembly member in question, if the registrar is informed of possible future World Assembly nations the registrar will keep that information in confidence and will not share it with anyone on pain of a minimum three months ban from the region unless the registrar observes such a nation waging war against the North Pacific.
Click to expand...
 
Criminy! Who wrote that? Seriously, I've been trying to find the discussion on that for days now.

On the whole, one does not expect to find pronouncements such as, "Should the Speaker fail to update the RA membership list weekly, the Delegate shall slap him into next Tuesday," on the books. It's just not our style.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top