Security Concerns

King Durk the Awesome

King Durk the Awesome

TNPer
Pretty much any mid-sized outside organization could have 5-10 people join our Regional Assembly and effectively seize control of the entire region with ease. The North Pacific has become the prize of Nationstates in a sense - we are the most active and most interesting region in town right now.

Is democracy sustainable?
 
Most active feeder I mean. Not familiar enough with the UCR's but I'd imagine a few of them are just as active if not moreso. Regardless, you can't just 'take' a UCR.
 
Eluvatar:
I... don't think 10 would be enough to "seize control of the region".
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If you play it right, sure it is. Just run a candidate who is marginally decent and you'll get a decent amount of the 'native' vote plus the 10 plants.
 
This assumes that one can find a "marginally decent" candidate who will be loyal to your outside force, that none of your outside force will leak, that your outside force and its behavior won't be noticed, etc... and then you run across the problem of our checks and balances.
 
I think there is a great need for change in law so that person interested in joining RA should disclose their position in other regions governments if they are member of any other regional assembly .
 
You don't even need 10. 5 would be fine.

But, that's nothing new. Democracy in TNP has remained throughout the various coups, uprisings, etc. If the coupers can't wait out TNP's old guard, they won't win. Simple as that. And they better have some influence too.

So, i think democracy is alive and well.
 
No, not Taijitu, The Lexicon in collaboration with Lone Wolves United. It would have worked too had Shoeless Joe, ironically in retrospect, not given up the entire plot. This incident led to Limitless, whom was going to uplifted to the delegacy, being banned from TNP forums for years thereafter.
 
An idea I have been toying with is the idea of conflict of interest disclosures. I have seen this under operation in Osiris. Basically when elections come around people must disclose their positions in other regions by a certain date. There would be penalties for failure to disclose appropriately.
 
That still doesn't stop a whole region from asking its members to join our ranks. Disclosure doesn't mean jackshit if you can just operate openly without punishment.
 
Are we talking coup?
With voter turnout in the RA and elections, it seems to me quite easy for a large raider group to just take advantage of TNP's democracy.
But, I don't have the experience to which Punk D refers.
 
mcmasterdonia:
An idea I have been toying with is the idea of conflict of interest disclosures. I have seen this under operation in Osiris. Basically when elections come around people must disclose their positions in other regions by a certain date. There would be penalties for failure to disclose appropriately.
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When I began the game in 2004 - they had these in TSP. I guess they worked ok, but I feel like in those days people didn't have as many multi-regional affiliations as they do now.
 
TSP of that era also used their disclosures to specifically keep out raiders. If you were an active raider and applied for TSP citizenship, at a minimum you were denied, at worse you were banned from the region and the forums.
 
I don't think conflict of interest disclosures would solve the problem Durk brings to our attention. I don't think there really is any way to solve that problem short of ending democratic government -- which wouldn't really solve the problem since an end to democratic government is likely one of the things most of us fear about a coup by external forces.

That said, I do think conflict of interest disclosures might allow us to have a better working knowledge when and if an elected official is representing interests other than TNP's. In other words, I think they're a good sunshine measure toward accountability so I would be in favor of them. I just don't think they address the problem Durk mentions, nor do I think it really can be addressed.
 
Ending democracy isn't the ultimate step to prevent conflicts of interest. It goes way too far. Ending multi-region citizenship within TNP would be sufficient. I am merely observing this, not advocating for it, or suggesting it in any way. TNP's history includes a great many people who started this game outside TNP (myself included). We've always dealt with external influence, and this conversation has happened before. Disclosures help, of course, but at its basic level, multiple-citizenship is essentially a principle on which we've built this region. It's brought problems before, and it will in the future to be sure. What we're seeing now is tension, nothing more. I'd urge caution against any major changes at this stage.
 
As a sort of side-line to Gaspo's and Lord Byron's comments, there is a difference between a Democracy and a Republic.

Democracies tend to run towards being mob rule and are easily overthrown should one muster enough votes and take advantage of the system.

Republics, in the form of Democratic Constitutional Republics tend to be more stable - that is, by having elected representatives you put an a layer of insulation between democracy and mob rule.

While you might end up with a bunch of people flooding the voter rolls for nefarious purposes, that sort of activity can be largely stopped in groups of voters are randomly assigned to virtual 'districts' and each district is represented by an RA member who elected from that 'district'. If a group floods on representative 'district', it's only one district of several. And voter flooding would then have to be fairly massive to take a majority of districts represented by RA members who are elected to represent their 'districts' and thence elect dupes to the RA.
 
We don't have the numbers to make that work. It's been done before in NS (notably in the PRP - though I freely admit that on major matters, the votes were meaningless, on lesser legislative matters this system was followed, roughly). It only works if you have enough people to make it work. I don't think we do right now. You need to have enough people that you have at least 5-7 districts represented, and so currently we'd end up with what, 5 people to a district, 3 of whom are active? No point to it.
 
Blue Wolf II:
Sort of seems like the PRP's old governor system too. :P
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Precisely my point. It was never truly functional there, either, and that was in what I think we can all agree was a somewhat more vibrant, active, and engaging time in feeder politics. There was more to draw people in at that time, and the model still didn't work. People want personal involvement in what's going on - they want a stake. Representative democracy is only necessary when the numbers involved make direct democracy impossible. That is not the case here.
 
King Durk the Awesome:
Pretty much any mid-sized outside organization could have 5-10 people join our Regional Assembly and effectively seize control of the entire region with ease. The North Pacific has become the prize of Nationstates in a sense - we are the most active and most interesting region in town right now.
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Yes, that is a smart way to take over TNP. Bring it on. After all, this is the land of opportunity.
 
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