The Problem With The North Pacific

Romanoffia

Romanoffia

Garde à l'eau!
Over the past few days I have had some interesting conversations with a number of prominent people in NationStates concerning The North Pacific. The two specific questions that keep coming up: “what’s wrong with The North Pacific?” and “what do the people of The North Pacific really want? That last one has had me stumped for about 10 years now.

The answer to both of those questions is simple yet complex. To say that the biggest problem with The North Pacific is that people don’t really know what they want would be an oversimplification. It’s much more complex than that, but it is the very root of the problem.

The North Pacific says it wants Democracy yet it insists upon turning it into mob rule. There have been all too many ‘lynchings’ of good people in this region. We all know who they are. Even some of those who have subjected to those lynchings merrily partake in delivering mob justice with great vigor while failing to remember what it was like to be lynched themselves.

The North Pacific says it wants to simplify the government and Constitution, yet they always manage to put into practice a system that is all too concerned with bureaucratic minutia. This region is a poster child for the First Law of Eris: The more order you seek to impose the greater the resulting chaos will be. We ‘rewrite’ the Constitution by pulling out a few words here and there and rewording a few phrases here and there and pat ourselves on the backs and say, ‘what good boys and girls are we!’. And then we end up with the same old cluster-fudge we had before, only worse.

The North Pacific says it wants freedom yet when it is offered any number of truly libertarian alternatives that promote our supposed ideals, everyone goes for the same old thing again, only worse than before.

The North Pacific says it wants freedom of speech yet the mob mentality doesn’t want to extend that freedom to anyone who disagrees with them. The mentality in this region is, ‘oh, you can’t say that because it offends me’ and if something is deemed ‘offensive’ no matter how true it is, you can’t say it. Well, I have some important news for everyone: the world is an offensive place so deal with it. If we prohibited everything that anyone might find offensive because they disagree with it there would be nothing but the sound of chirping crickets in The North Pacific. You do not have a right to not be offended. Free speech has become de facto censorship on so many levels.

Political Correctness is the order of the day. Stating the truth has become a crime in some instances. As Clint Eastwood said, “political correctness is the death of humor” and he is right. Political Correctness is also one step on the way to totalitarianism of the worst kind. Must we all be reduced to calling abortion a “near life experience” so we do not offend anyone?

Censorship of ideas we might find ‘offensive’ or with which we otherwise disagree with is rampant in The North Pacific. Say something someone doesn’t like and out comes the lynch mob with their pointy hats and ropes. Just ask anyone here who has been ‘lynched’ by the mob. There’s plenty of them out there. This leaves the victims of lynching three choices. The first being to simply take one’s own lynching quietly and do nothing (only to get lynched repeatedly at every opportunity. The second is to take one’s lynching like a good little (fill in the term of your choice here because I won’t - that way you can offend yourself and have no one to blame but yourself for being offended) and avoid subsequent lynchings by joining the next angry, mindless mob that arises. The third choice is to stand up and fight for Free Speech and the rights of everyone to have their own opinions without fear of being molested or abused or censored.

The last choice requires intestinal fortitude and a spine, two items I fear are in danger of extinction in The North Pacific. I suppose people like the safety and anonymity of the faceless, mindless mob. It’s the easy way out and lynchings seem to be the regional pass-time around here.

There are so many metaphorical lynchings in The North Pacific that if a tree around here had a dozen people hanging from it, it would be called a “North Pacific Wind Chime”.

The North Pacific says it wants a strong government yet insists upon putting into practice what is tantamount to no government at all. Most of the time it ends up in a giant bicker-fest because all the toadies are squabbling for power, favor or to maintain power even if it means sacrificing liberty on the alter of the mindless lynch mob. It is true that every golden apple has its worm, but in The North Pacific’s case its an infestation...of snakes. No wonder we are the most couped region in NationStates: we set up our own downfall each and every time.

It’s high time that everyone stop for a moment and take a good look around at the order and condition of things. Take a good look. Step back a little and just take a good look. You won’t like what you see.

What you will see is angry little mobs that come and go to metaphorical lynchings like little old ladies with flowers in their hats going to church. You will see that our freedoms have become so eroded and distorted to the point of being meaningless. You will see Censorship being called Free Speech. You will see Linchings being called Justice. You will see Government as drunken and abusive Master and the People as slaves whose only purpose is to serve the machinery of the state. You will see anyone who stands up for their rights and the rights of others as a part of a North Pacific Wind Chime. Instead of a truly vibrant region you will see little clusters of power-hungry bullies and conniving thugs who only drive people away from the region.

The truth is often a very ugly and offensive thing at times. If one is freed by the Truth it means that one must also be a slave to the Truth - and that is something that most people seem to forget. But as I said earlier, stating the truth has virtually become a crime in The North Pacific these days. It is an endangered species. Maybe, out of sensitivity to those who are easily offended, we should ban Truth altogether!

And I eagerly await a lynch mob with my name on it to come my way for committing the crime of expressing my opinion and stating the truth. Have at it. I’ll even supply the rope if you are too cheap to buy it yourselves.

"In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ------- George Orwell
 
That's going to be interesting.. I'll go for popcorn. xD

Btw I wonder who are those "prominent people in NationStates" exactly :)
 
Aurora DiLaurentis:
That's going to be interesting.. xD

I'll go for popcorn.
Btw I wonder who those "prominent people in NationStates" are exactly :)
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Actually, one individual particularly stands out in that category of "prominent people" who is mainly responsible for a couple of points to ponder. That would be rabbicellophane.

That particular conversation involved comparing the simplicity and effectiveness of the government of Osiris vs. the fascination for bureaucratic minitia of The North Pacific.

There were also a couple of really old-time players from waaaaaaay back who have left the game because of the continual garbage that occurs in TNP.

Oh, two items I forgot to mention that TNP suffers from: paranoia and cronyism.
 
"There were also a couple of really old-time players from waaaaaaay back who have left the game because of the continual garbage that occurs in TNP."

Sounds weird as the NS world exists also beyond TNP...why to leave game because of one region? :P

Hmmm paranoia and cronyism... You must think you are a really good doctor and I suppose you think you know how to heal that illness, right? ;)
 
I know exactly how to cure the paranoia and cronyism once and for all. All it takes if for those who are sick and tired of it to get off their butts and stand up.
 
It will probably be disregarded because Romanoffia has said it ... but a lot of the opening post of this thread is bang on the money.
 
flemingovia:
It will probably be disregarded because Romanoffia has said it ... but a lot of the opening post of this thread is bang on the money.
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Ain't censorship and lynch mobs grand? :lol:

I intend to harp on what exactly is wrong with this region. Eventually enough people who get walked on will stand up for their rights and do something about it.

There's only one thing I hate more than de facto censorship is calling censorship Freedom of Speech.
 
Except #TNP isn't the official channel of The North Pacific and isn't covered, in the slightest, by the Constitution or Freedom of Speech as defined by the bill of rights.

If I made a channel called "#Teh_N0rth_Pacific" and people from TNP liked being there and one day I banned someone for no reason, guess what? Not government corruption, just me being a dick in the channel I created.
 
*notes the absence of the lynch mob*

Personally, I don't care enough to metaphorically lynch you for this post -- I just really can't believe you're still going on about this. You were banned from IRC last night because you were being insulting and offensive, not because you had alternative political opinions. Maybe if you can try expressing your opinions in a way that isn't insulting and offensive people would discuss them with you rationally, but you most certainly wouldn't be banned just for disagreeing. A number of us had a disagreement last night after your ban over the WA voting policy. No one was kicked or banned because no one behaved the way that you had and for as long as you had.

There may be some merit to some of the arguments that you're making, but given that they're being brought up as a reaction to a justified 24 hour ban from IRC I tend to view your above post with skepticism.
 
Cormac Docherty:
*notes the absence of the lynch mob*

Personally, I don't care enough to metaphorically lynch you for this post -- I just really can't believe you're still going on about this. You were banned from IRC last night because you were being insulting and offensive, not because you had alternative political opinions. Maybe if you can try expressing your opinions in a way that isn't insulting and offensive people would discuss them with you rationally, but you most certainly wouldn't be banned just for disagreeing. A number of us had a disagreement last night after your ban over the WA voting policy. No one was kicked or banned because no one behaved the way that you had and for as long as you had.

There may be some merit to some of the arguments that you're making, but given that they're being brought up as a reaction to a justified 24 hour ban from IRC I tend to view your above post with skepticism.
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I stand by my posts in this thread. You can be skeptical to your little heart's content. You have that right as far as I am concerned. Now, others that disagree with you might have a tree with your name on it waiting for you somewhere. But that's not any of my concern. :P

And you will not troll me successfully here or anywhere else.

And, you forget the nasty language that was hurled at me when certain people opened a chat window with me. Some lovely language was hurled at me in a coordinated trolling and harassment festival.

At any rate, back on topic.

I will continue where I left off earlier before the hijacking:

flemingovia
Sep 16 2012, 05:03 PM

It will probably be disregarded because Romanoffia has said it ... but a lot of the opening post of this thread is bang on the money.
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I've been in this region in one nation or another for about 10 years this November or December. Early on it was nice. People were generally nice to each other. Then the era of coups and rogues set in and that's when the paranoia and cronyism started to set it. And then the same set of people started holding power between coups and rogues and it has largely fossilized since.

Conditions as they are now are becoming intolerable and must be changed, but every time there is 'change' it's just the same old garbage re-packaged and re-branded. And it sets the region up for more coups and rogues who do what they do probably out of pure boredom.

We go to reform the Constitution and we get the same thing. Nothing changed, nothing got any simpler, and the same old garbage continues unabated. Anyone who suggests real change that will simplify things and make this game fun again is immediately labeled a kook or a hair-brain.

The truth is, this region is still stagnant as a result and it will spin out of control again and again mainly due to the frustration caused by the love of bureaucratic minutia and power-mongering. And the humorous thing about it is that after each horrendous bout of rogue-ism or coup, we simply do the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. Frankly, I'm very surprised that we've gone this long without some episode of rogue-ism.

But, nobody listens and most of us with two brain cells just sit back and laugh because we know exactly what is coming and how it will turn out. What annoys me to no end is that the same people make the same exact mistake over and over and over (x10) again. And no one ever listens to or tries any really new idea.

The other problem is that people tend to take this game too seriously and then engage in the Politics of Personal Destruction which is what is now happening on an all too regular basis. Now, if I were a mean spirited person I could also engage in those tactics and really raze some serious Hell but I wouldn't do it in such an amateurish fashion as others do. Now, everyone just be thankful that I am not at all mean spirited.

Sometimes, I wonder why I even bother anymore with NationStates. I suppose it's because of the few people here that I actually consider friends. It certainly isn't because the game is fun for anyone anymore (unless they are sadistic or masochistic).

My main personal goal is to make this game fun again, but all anyone ever gets for efforts along those lines is abuse and a sound drubbing. People are just too over-sensitive and will misinterpret things because they have limited powers of logic and reason and no sense of humor about themselves at all but all the sense of humor about other people.

At any rate, This is getting boring and I think I have made my point to the few people who here I actually care about or are actually listening to what anyone has to say.

Carry on.
 
flemingovia:
It will probably be disregarded because Romanoffia has said it ... but a lot of the opening post of this thread is bang on the money.
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Yes. Unfortunately Roman gets very close to understanding the problem in TNP, but then ruins it by jumping off the cliff into crazy.

The side effect of which is that the effect it will have on the status quo is easy to predict. Nothing.
 
I don't agree with all of Romanoffia's post, but the picture of TNP he paints in the OP looks about right to me.
 
Haor Chall:
flemingovia:
It will probably be disregarded because Romanoffia has said it ... but a lot of the opening post of this thread is bang on the money.
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Yes. Unfortunately Roman gets very close to understanding the problem in TNP, but then ruins it by jumping off the cliff into crazy.

The side effect of which is that the effect it will have on the status quo is easy to predict. Nothing.
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And there's the point exactly - anyone who calls for serious, real change is tagged as a krank or crazy and nothing ever gets done.

As for going 'over the cliff into crazy', I think you are obviously missing the point that I am making. This region is sliding once again into rule by the mob. And that will be followed by another episodic bout of chaos.

I think I hit the nail right on the head and I think most people will agree with my conclusion. It's now up to TNP to make changes instead of sitting around and doing the usual nothing and calling anyone who calls for change 'crazy'.

Now, I realize that you are trying to 'marginalize' me so that no one takes all of this seriously, but such a tactic usually has the opposite of the intended effect.

As for where this region is headed, I hope that I don't have to issue a blanket "I told you so" statement as I have done many times before. I invariably end up being right about 99% of the time, yet no one listens each time. I think it's time TNP wakes the Hell up and listens for just once.

But I suspect that no one will listen and I feel another 'I told you so' rapidly approaching. In that instance, TNP will once again be at fault for it's own problems. But that's the status quo. Only this time I don't think it will resolve itself for a very, very long time.
 
Freedom of speech does not oblige private entities to provide you with a venue for your speech. As Blue Wolf already pointed out, the #tnp IRC channel is such an entity and unaffiliated with the government. They are free to choose who, if anyone, they want to permit there under which circumstances. If you disagree with its policies or that it's non-governmental, you are perfectly free to create a competing channel or propose a law which would change that.
 
Going back to the first post in this thread, which I have now read 3 times, I find I have a more optimistic views on the state of TNP. Over the past several months we have seen the rebirth of the NPA and a growth in active participation that is unprecedented in peace time. There are more newcomers running for public office than ever before. Who remembers the days when many elections went uncontested? There are positive changes in TNP.

The thing is, we have a feeder region, and an open form of government in which we welcome nations of all political persuasions. We deliberately make it easy to join the RA and be politically active. Part and parcel of that philosophy is that we will attract nations who have opposing political views. The spirited discussion of the issues we confront is a testimony to that.

Where we have a problem is in bringing our personal differences into the political arena. Granted, not everyone is going to like each other. I don't expect us all to hold hands and sing Kumbaya. But the first thing I noticed when I returned to the game this spring was that we seem to have forgotten our manners. We have to stop using every difference of opinion as an opportunity to snipe at someone. It's really unbecoming of a civilized society. I think we would all do better with a little more dignity and common courtesy.

As for the laws - well, yes they're a mess. My theory is that it is because the RA - or some form of it - has been making laws for 10 years. I like the analogy of the US government. They started with a 1-page constitution and 10 laws. Now after making laws for 200+ years they have a really big mess of laws. TNP started with very little written down, but over time, lots of laws were passed and the code grew. The whole point of the RA is to vote in elections and pass laws. So because we have been around for so long, the legal code bulked up. It was inevitable.
 
Good points there. There have been some improvements and you are 100% correct on this point:

But the first thing I noticed when I returned to the game this spring was that we seem to have forgotten our manners. We have to stop using every difference of opinion as an opportunity to snipe at someone. It's really unbecoming of a civilized society. I think we would all do better with a little more dignity and common courtesy.
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That, oddly enough is a reflection of RL political practices that have become common place in just the past couple of years. You always have one group of people who can insult anyone and everyone. But they go bananas when you criticize them or their opinions. These are the people who cry 'race' at everything (metaphorically, and quite literally).

Second, with a younger crowd appearing (no offense towards the younger crowd) you are dealing with people that have been largely raised in a different society from the older players. Very few parents teach their children manners anymore. It's also an odd attitude on the part of some people who labor under the misapprehension that Free Speech is only Free Speech if it agrees with them. Anything that they get annoyed by is suddenly a violation of their imagined right to be free from being knocked off the pot by different opinions.

This is not a civilized environment anymore. It's become a place whereby you are expected to take insults and abuse and if you defend yourself or express a differing opinion you are likely to get mobbed.

One of the problems is that TNP is essentially a Democracy. It needs to be a Republic. Proof of this is any number of quotes by John Adams about Democracy. This one is particularly true:


"Democracy... while it lasts is more bloody than either aristocracy or monarchy. Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There is never a democracy that did not commit suicide". ------- John Adams


And this is what TNP periodically does.

And TNP fails to understand this point by Adams:


"The essence of a free government consists in an effectual control of rivalries".


This last point is perhaps the most important bit of advice that needs to be followed in TNP. But, of course, no one ever listens and TNP decays into the morass of the first Adams quote I cited.
 
I would like to point out that the current Constitution is 41% the length of the old one and the new legal code as of the NPA Doctrine Amendment is 83% the length of the old one, so the size of our legal documents has actually shrunk recently.
 
But the bureaucratic minutia is still expanding, as it always will. What we need is to streamline. We have, as the old expression goes, too many chiefs and not enough indians.
 
All of it. TNP seems to be fascinated by bureaucratic confuzzlement because it grows like a fungus on a rotten log.

Just look at the courts and how constipated they are. What we need are strict time limits to process cases (or the judges get penalized) and a more streamlined trial system.
 
The new legal code does establish strict time limits for each part of the trial. The issue has been with getting things to trial and that's not a new development.
 
Blue Wolf II:
As of right now the Courts are jacked up because the AG decided that he could make up laws and ignore Court rulings.
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Eh, the AG is entitled to not prosecute or present a case under the law. The law should be changed because it's not Grosse's fault. There are a lot of baseless cases and frivolous cases that need to be filtered out.

The solution is to change the AG to the Executive Branch to act as a prosecutor for the state, so to speak. That solves a good chunk of the problems.
 
Romanoffia:
Just look at the courts and how constipated they are. What we need are strict time limits to process cases (or the judges get penalized) and a more streamlined trial system.
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The courts are not moving slowly at all. We have not been able to do anything because we have no cases.
 
What's interesting is that despite it all, the North Pacific is still alive.

That may not answer any questions, or handle any concerns, but perhaps it is worth being remembered.
 
That surprises me too, HEM. It would actually thrive if rivalries can be kept under control (which alone is one of the points of good government).
 
I haven't been active here lately, but my question is -- do we have organized political factions? Being able to handle differences in a professional political manner beats the hell out of under the table ball slaps.
 
We do. Cleavage however is limited. There are some non-partisan issues which people may be more worked up about than the more partisan ones.
 
I don't think there is censorship in TNP at all. That's one of the reasons I like TNP, is that there isn't censorship and that there are a number of ideas. That makes it lively, makes it interesting from my viewpoint.

I do agree that bureaucracy hinders TNP but back in 2005 after the aftermath of Moldavi's coup, Roman you'll remember that we had 3 choices before us - Tresville's revamped Constitution, Grosse's largess Constitution, and my Constitution styled "The Watery Document" that was intended to be the antithesis to bureaucracy. Grosse's document ended up in 3rd place, but he certainly has remained more linked to TNP longer than Tresville or especially myself since 2005 and Grosse's bureaucratic tendencies are all over the the TNP constitution. Don't mistake the latter sentence to intend to mean that this is a bad thing, no, I'm saying that the community of TNP exists as it does today because of the actors in the drama.

I believe in many feeders your tendency to wax insane would not be tolerated. You may have lasted 6 months in TSP, perhaps 2 years in TEP, welcomed by TWP, and I shudder to think what TP would have done to you. I think TNP is the best community for a number of voices because what I note about TNP is an overarching commitment to democracy. That is something that I do not believe has wavered in my 8+ years dealing with this region. Is there bureaucracy? Sure.

Roman, I also believe that you have demonstrated a penchant to not be able to deal with issues/situations when they do not go your way. You tend to fly off the handle and go into what I'll call Roman-rage mode settling down after 48-72 hours after someone has talked you off the ledge. FWIW, I'm a Republican and I have no doubt that if I go to the #TNP channel and say that I believe Obama is not the right person to lead America, I could have a lively, respectful debate with anyone in the room that would not be censored in any way, shape, or form. I recall many spirited "debates" I had with Poltsamaa on that channel years ago that certainly leaned flame-war that weren't ever censored by the moderators in the channel.

So I disagree that TNP censors anything. Instead, I believe the players in TNP have opinions and allow those opinions to be known. If people disagree with your opinion, my opinion, or any other opinion than that is simply democracy in action.
 
Eluvatar:
We do. Cleavage however is limited. There are some non-partisan issues which people may be more worked up about than the more partisan ones.
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I like cleavage. :P

@ HC - I read your PM and I think I misinterpreted your post in my response. Accept my apologies if I came across a little harsh in my follow up thread.Your post now makes complete sense to me and I thank you for your honest assessments here and elsewhere.
 
Romanoffia:
That, oddly enough is a reflection of RL political practices that have become common place in just the past couple of years. You always have one group of people who can insult anyone and everyone. But they go bananas when you criticize them or their opinions. These are the people who cry 'race' at everything (metaphorically, and quite literally).

Second, with a younger crowd appearing (no offense towards the younger crowd) you are dealing with people that have been largely raised in a different society from the older players. Very few parents teach their children manners anymore.
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I agree that RL politics has hit new lows. But I'm not buying the "kids today" argument. The people with an affinity for NS are not a random cross-section of society. I'm certain if we took a survey, everyone would say they were indeed taught manners, or at the very least, had read about them.
 
What you say may be true. i would just observe that there is a difference between having been taught manners and having learned them.
 
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