[Complete]AT VOTE: Condemn Raxus Caedus Turn [Complete]

Eluvatar

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Zemnaya Svoboda
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Eluvatar#8517
Category: Condemnation
Nominee: Raxus Caedus Turn
Proposed by: Skyrim Diplomacy

Condemn Raxus Caedus Turn:
Description: The Security Council,

BELIEVING that the sovereignty of democratically elected officials should not be infringed upon, nor should any legitimate government be usurped by an oppressive and dictatorial regime,

IDENTIFYING The Caedus Family Patriarch of Raxus Caedus Turn (Turn) as a large, multi-faceted nation that controls many other nations, including The Empire of The Controller, and as the primary antagonist in the region Markarth,

NOTING that Turn, via The Controller, ejected and banned the rightful government of Markarth in an unprecedented and unwarranted coup, placing the region under martial law while suppressing free speech and threatening the same to all nations in the region,

FURTHER NOTING that Turn shut down the forums of Markarth, which are the heart and soul of every region, essentially killing off any meaningful discussion or dissent that may have risen,

DISCLOSING that Turn has perpetrated these same crimes on multiple occasions with multiple regions, including the now-defunct Imperial Clindean Order, The Genesis Corporation, and Athos,

DISGUSTED that Turn not only encouraged but employed puppet-flooding to artificially boost the regional population of Markarth to untruthfully portray a sense of power and numbers in the world, both militarily and otherwise,

HORRIFIED that Turn has forcibly removed or destroyed many facets of the Markarth cultural heritage, including the forum and regional news service, and threatened ejection to all nations in the region should their leaders voice any dissent,

OBSERVING that Turn has raider affiliations at large and has used military strength to raid with the Imperial Clindean Order and Markarth,

REVEALING that Turn was at the helm of The Genesis Corporation (TGC), once one of the largest regions in the world, shortly before the complete and utter collapse of the region due to the power-grab and resignation of Turn, after which TGC stagnated for many months,

RECOGNIZING that such heinous and world-wide crimes cannot go unattended nor unrecognized,

HEREBY CONDEMNS Raxus Caedus Turn.
 
Nay.

Ack, I've argued this across forums but one last time. Whooooo.

1) It's giving a medal to someone for doing something that's outside the realms of NS-bad.

2) NS-bad is what's used to Condemn nations usually, IE: Durk, Milograd, PunkD, Sedge. Do we want to honor this perp and put him up there with them?

3) What about all the other forum destroyers that actually hack, etc? Others have done way worse--why haven't they been Condemned? Do you want to start this precedent?

4) This doesn't do anything to help the natives of Markarth, but gives him a medal. Other Condemned nations have used this medal as a point in recruitment, or as a badge of honour.

5) The proposal is really badly written, which the Author has been made aware of and ignored anyways.

6) The proposal condemns raiding for the sake of raiding. Waaat.
 
[quote="World Assembly Brief: Minister Mahaj of the Ministry of the World Assembly]
mowa-seal.png
The Security Council proposal at vote, Condemn Raxus Caeudus Turn, asks us fundamentally whether a founder can be condemned for their actions within the region.

It is not disputed that Turn, as founder of Markarth, chose on his own to shut down the region and its forums. However, the Ministry of the World Assembly isn’t convinced that a founder doing what he wants with the region is condemnable. Everyone entering the region knows that this one person has absolute control over the region and nothing they can do will change that. They willingly accept this when they enter. This proposal could set a dangerous precedent of condemning founders simply for their actions on their own region. If this is condemnable, surely we should be condemning Gates the God, who actually ejected the nations of Gatesville.

Forum destruction, again, is condemnable. However, if this was just a ‘shut down’, which is what it looks like to be, then shutting down your own forums shouldn’t be considered worthy of a condemnation, lest we cheapen the value of condemnations.

Its mentioned that Turn has committed these offenses in other regions before, which, if you’re inclined to think that the above mentioned things are indeed worthy of a condemnation, should increase your willingness to vote for this. However, this next clause about puppet flooding, is in the eyes of the Ministry of the World Assembly, petty filler. Plenty of regions exist for collection of puppets, the existence of this practice makes this game more fun and diverse, and a condemnation for it is nonsensical. In the eyes of the Ministry of the World Assembly, this clause cheapens the entire resolution.

In a seemingly out of order turn, the next clause then harkens back to the horrible acts committed by Turn against Markarth. These things are understandable and certainly not something any reasonable founder would do, however it is up to the voter to decide whether they want to condemn someone in part for hindering and destroying part of a culture. This, however, also ties in with the forum shutdown, so the two should really be considered as one and the same.

The next clause then portrays an anti-raider view, stating "OBSERVING that Turn has raider affiliations at large and has used military strength to raid with the Imperial Clindean Order and Markarth,". The Ministry of the World Assembly notes that Skyrim Diplomacy, the submitted of this clause, is a known raider sympathizer and supporter, and finds the idea of a raider condemning a raider for raiding to be silly. Furthermore, the idea that condemning someone for raiding, if it was indeed relevant, should be shoved to simply be an aside, a mere number in the count of injustices, does a disservice to any past, present, or future condemnations for raiders. The Ministry of the World Assembly would be more favorable to this proposal had this clause, along with the puppeting one, not been included.

The resolution essentially concludes with a mention that Turn apparently seized a lot of power in The Genesis Corporation and then resigned. This matter, the Ministry of the World Assembly believes, is an internal matter for that region and that region only, and that this is not worthy of being aired out for the Security Council. Furthermore, as a note, the Ministry of the World Assembly, not having any evidence to indicate that Turn and the nations of Going Postal and Swarmlandia are controlled by the same nation, believes that the inactivity of Going Postal contributed more to the demise than Turn.

In conclusion, the Ministry of the World Assembly sees the two sides of this. The one side is that these heinous crimes were committed against Markarth and all the weak filler arguments left in the resolution don’t matter due to the severity of the crime. The other side is that the founder of the region can do with the region what he wants, and that the other points in the resolution manage to become even weaker and drag down the resolution to a point below the threshold of deserving to pass.

The Ministry of the World Assembly falls in the second camp, and believes that the nations of Markarth knew who the founder was and knew what the history was: there are no shortage of regions in the world, and they had other choices. They made their choice, and this is what happened. Not to mention the incredibly weak other arguments, the Ministry of the World Assembly believes the Security Council’s reputation and standards would take a hit if this proposal were to pass. Therefore, the Ministry of the World Assembly encourages citizens to vote against and to encourage their friends to vote similarly.

Of course, the Ministry of the World Assembly anticipates debate, and welcomes it, whether it be about this resolution, the brief, or the implications on the Security Council’s reputation with regard to unassociated persons. Others may even make their own counter-briefs. The Ministry of the World Assembly looks forward to it all.[/quote]
 
That's the argument you're going with? Not that you don't want to give Raxus Caedus Turn a badge of honor, but that a founder can do whatever he wants to his own region? Who cares how much other people have contributed to the growth of that region or to other aspects, it's all up to the founder.

I had no idea you were such a totalitarian, Mahaj.
 
Mahaj:
[quote="World Assembly Brief: Minister Mahaj of the Ministry of the World Assembly]
mowa-seal.png
The Security Council proposal at vote, Condemn Raxus Caeudus Turn, asks us fundamentally whether a founder can be condemned for their actions within the region.

It is not disputed that Turn, as founder of Markarth, chose on his own to shut down the region and its forums. However, the Ministry of the World Assembly isn’t convinced that a founder doing what he wants with the region is condemnable. Everyone entering the region knows that this one person has absolute control over the region and nothing they can do will change that. They willingly accept this when they enter. This proposal could set a dangerous precedent of condemning founders simply for their actions on their own region. If this is condemnable, surely we should be condemning Gates the God, who actually ejected the nations of Gatesville.
[/quote]Again, I can't believe this is actually the argument you're going with. Maybe Gates the God should have been condemned, but the fact that he wasn't doesn't mean that Raxus Caedus Turn shouldn't be. The idea that a founder can just do whatever he wants, without any regard for what the natives of the region want or what they've contributed to the region, is ludicrous and is the most (serious) totalitarian argument I've ever seen put forward on NationStates. It's breathtaking in its ideological simplicity and stupidity.

Yes, everyone entering a foundered user-created region knows that the founder has absolute control over the region. Everyone knows that it's possible this could happen, but that doesn't justify it if it does happen nor does that mean the natives deserved it for moving to a foundered region. The logical conclusion of your argument seems to be that if people don't want to be subjected to tyranny in NationStates they should only live in GCRs or founderless UCRs, otherwise if a founder does reprehensible things they deserved it. If that's actually the argument you're making, it's laughable.

Mahaj:
Forum destruction, again, is condemnable. However, if this was just a ‘shut down’, which is what it looks like to be, then shutting down your own forums shouldn’t be considered worthy of a condemnation, lest we cheapen the value of condemnations.
We actually have no way of knowing whether or not the forum has been destroyed. Because it's offline, we don't know what is still on the forum and what isn't. That said, shutting down a forum is the same thing as forum destruction. The information on that forum -- which they put there -- is no longer available to the natives of the regional community. For as long as that remains the case Raxus Caedus Turn is indeed guilty of forum destruction.

Mahaj:
The next clause then portrays an anti-raider view, stating "OBSERVING that Turn has raider affiliations at large and has used military strength to raid with the Imperial Clindean Order and Markarth,". The Ministry of the World Assembly notes that Skyrim Diplomacy, the submitted of this clause, is a known raider sympathizer and supporter, and finds the idea of a raider condemning a raider for raiding to be silly. Furthermore, the idea that condemning someone for raiding, if it was indeed relevant, should be shoved to simply be an aside, a mere number in the count of injustices, does a disservice to any past, present, or future condemnations for raiders. The Ministry of the World Assembly would be more favorable to this proposal had this clause, along with the puppeting one, not been included.
LOL, so basically what you're saying is that if he was going to condemn Raxus Caedus Turn for being a raider that condemnation should have been much more prominent and forceful because those raiders so ebil!

I agree that this clause shouldn't have been included, but your biased reasoning for why it shouldn't have been included is hilarious. I really hope you don't make the Council of Five because I'd prefer not to see this kind of propaganda from the Ministry in the future.

Mahaj:
The resolution essentially concludes with a mention that Turn apparently seized a lot of power in The Genesis Corporation and then resigned. This matter, the Ministry of the World Assembly believes, is an internal matter for that region and that region only, and that this is not worthy of being aired out for the Security Council. Furthermore, as a note, the Ministry of the World Assembly, not having any evidence to indicate that Turn and the nations of Going Postal and Swarmlandia are controlled by the same nation, believes that the inactivity of Going Postal contributed more to the demise than Turn.
The current Delegate of TGC disagrees with you, having voted for the Condemnation. It's amazing to me that everyone actually affected by Raxus Caedus Turn's behavior is rallying around this resolution while the Game-Created Regions, and particularly the defenders in the Game-Created Regions, are insisting they know better. Are you folks, and by you folks I do mean defenders, ever not busybodies who are certain you know what's best for the interregional community?

I completely disagree with those who are arguing that they don't want to give Raxus Caedus Turn a badge that he might consider a badge of honor. I disagree with them, but I respect their argument as having some value. I do not respect this argument. It has no value. It's trash.
 
Mr. Cormac brings a very good point.

Just because someone is founder of a region doesn't mean they can do whatever they want with it. When the region's members - who have contributed greatly - basically get ignored and just shut out / shut down when they protest, the founder is in the wrong. I saw it happen in two regions I was in.

I symbolically vote FOR this condemnation.
 
One question not answered is whether the natives of the UCR had an opportunity to set uo their own regions and forum independently? If nothing rlse, they could have started a thread at the NS forums to organize a new region.

It's these type of situations that makes condemnations difficult to judge. I'm going to watch how others address this. For the moment, I am abstaining.
 
SC Resolution at Vote: Condemn Raxus Caedus Turn
http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic/6951203/

5 aye (Cormac, mcmasterdonia, Govindia, KiwiTaicho, flemingovia); 8 against (Earth, Finn, Kogvuron, Tim, Mahaj, Funkadelia, Empire of Narnia, Chasmanthe); 2 abstain (Grosseschnauzer, Queen Ravenna)

Zemnaya Svoboda's vote against "Condemn Raxus Caedus Turn" has been noted.
 
SC Resolution at Vote: Condemn Raxus Caedus Turn
http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic/6951203/

6 aye (Cormac, mcmasterdonia, Govindia, KiwiTaicho, flemingovia, Isidor C. Stark); 8 against (Earth, Finn, Kogvuron, Tim, Mahaj, Funkadelia, Empire of Narnia, Chasmanthe); 2 abstain (Grosseschnauzer, Queen Ravenna)

Zemnaya Svoboda's vote on "Condemn Raxus Caedus Turn" has been withdrawn.

Overall World Assembly total now:

Votes For: 4,261 (50%)
Votes Against: 4,244 (50%)
 
SC Resolution at Vote: Condemn Raxus Caedus Turn
http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic/6951203/

7 aye (Cormac, mcmasterdonia, Govindia, KiwiTaicho, flemingovia, Isidor C. Stark, Grosseschnauzer); 9 against (Earth, Finn, Kogvuron, Tim, Mahaj, Funkadelia, Empire of Narnia, Chasmanthe, Blue Wolf II); 2 abstain (Queen Ravenna, unibot)

Still abstaining.

Overall World Assembly vote:

Votes For: 4,270 (50%)
Votes Against: 4,248 (50%)

Spread is 22.
 
SC Resolution at Vote: Condemn Raxus Caedus Turn
http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic/6951203/

6 aye (Cormac, Govindia, KiwiTaicho, flemingovia, Isidor C. Stark, Grosseschnauzer); 10 against (Earth, Finn, Kogvuron, Tim, Mahaj, Funkadelia, Empire of Narnia, Chasmanthe, Blue Wolf II, mcmasterdonia); 2 abstain (Queen Ravenna, unibot)

Zemnaya Svoboda's vote against "Condemn Raxus Caedus Turn" has been noted.

Overall World Assembly vote:

Votes For: 4,275 (48%)
Votes Against: 4,600 (52%)

Round and round she goes, where she stops, nobody knows...
 
The Security Council resolution "Condemn Raxus Caedus Turn" was defeated 4,762 votes to 4,501.

Voting on this resolution has ended.

Thanks to those nations who cast their votes. Your participation is a great help to the region.

This topic has been locked and sent to the Archives for safekeeping. If you would like this topic to be re-opened for further discussion, please contact the WA Delegate, a Global Moderator, or an Administrator for assistance. Thank you.
 
Voting on this resolution has ended.

Thanks to those nations who cast their votes. Your participation is a great help to the region.

This topic has been locked and sent to the Archives for safekeeping. If you would like this topic to be re-opened for further discussion, please contact the WA Delegate, a Global Moderator, or an Administrator for assistance. Thank you.
 
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