Debate?

#tnp_debates:

[17 May 22:01] --> You joined the channel
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[17 May 22:01] <Eluvatar> There is a Solm O_o
[17 May 22:01] --- Hileville changed mode: +v Eluvatar
[17 May 22:01] --- Hileville changed mode: +v Romanoffia
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[17 May 22:18] --- Hileville changed topic: TNP Delegate Run Off Election Debate Hall - This chat log will be posted on TNP's forums.
[17 May 22:19] <Hileville> Welcome to tonights Debate.
[17 May 22:22] <Hileville> Each candidate will have 1 minute to respond to the question that is asked. After each candidate has responded a 30 second rebuttal period may be granted.
[17 May 22:22] <Hileville> Are both candidates ready?
[17 May 22:22] <Romanoffia> Yes.
[17 May 22:22] <Eluvatar> Aye
[17 May 22:23] <Hileville> All those watching the debate are free to send me questions they would like asked.
[17 May 22:24] <Hileville> The first question is: Both of you have discussed reforming the constitution. Please expand on the ideas that you have for doing so.
[17 May 22:24] <Hileville> Eluvatar is on the clock starting now.
[17 May 22:25] <Eluvatar> My goal is to find a new text which the region as a whole will like, and then adopt it.
[17 May 22:25] <Hileville> 5 seconds
[17 May 22:26] <Eluvatar> I've drafted a constitution to encourage debate, and have seen some. We've discussed a number of possibilities as a result.
[17 May 22:26] <Eluvatar> I aspire to a new constitution which is free, fair, and reasonably simple.
[17 May 22:26] <Eluvatar> (over)
[17 May 22:26] <Hileville> Your time is up
[17 May 22:26] <Romanoffia> Am I up yet?
[17 May 22:26] <Hileville> Roman is on the clock starting now.
[17 May 22:27] <Hileville> 45 seconds
[17 May 22:27] <Romanoffia> My goal is to simplify the Constitution to remove the complexities. This, of course will mean a simplification of the legal code as well.
[17 May 22:27] <Hileville> 15 seconds
[17 May 22:27] <Hileville> Time is up
[17 May 22:27] <Romanoffia> Any new Constitution should also preserve the principles of division of powers and civil liberties
[17 May 22:28] <Eluvatar> is it someone's rebuttal time now?
[17 May 22:28] <Hileville> Eluvatar you may rebuttal
[17 May 22:28] <Eluvatar> If I understood this question to include the Legal Code I would of course have pointed people to my separate Legal Code Revamp,
[17 May 22:29] <Eluvatar> which has been in the works for a while and has gotten helpful contributions from many people.
[17 May 22:29] <Hileville> 10 seconds
[17 May 22:29] <Eluvatar> If you regard my schedule, that should be enacted reasonably soon,
[17 May 22:29] <Eluvatar> assuming consensus.
[17 May 22:29] <Hileville> Time
[17 May 22:29] <Hileville> Roman?
[17 May 22:29] <Romanoffia> Rebuttal -
[17 May 22:29] <Hileville> Go ahead
[17 May 22:29] <Hileville> 15 seconds
[17 May 22:30] <Hileville> 5 seconds
[17 May 22:30] <Romanoffia> Simplification of the legal code and Constitution are part and parcel of the same thing. We need to establish some kind of common-law basis for the legal code to handle principles of law.
[17 May 22:30] <Hileville> Time.
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[17 May 22:30] <Hileville> For the next set of questions we will move to a 2 minute initial answer period and a 1 minute rebuttal period.
[17 May 22:31] <Eluvatar> Thank you
[17 May 22:31] <Romanoffia> ;D
[17 May 22:32] <Hileville> This is another question that was submitted to me: Do you plan on implementing any opportunities for regional roleplay? If so, please state what you have in mind?
[17 May 22:32] <Hileville> Roman is first this time and he is on the clock.
[17 May 22:33] <Hileville> 1 minute remaining
[17 May 22:33] <Romanoffia> I plan on creating a number of ways to increase the RP factor. One of which I discussed in the Lobby or the RA. This particular example involves a 'good will' TNP Navy and Merchant fleet that will make a tour of the NationStates world.
[17 May 22:33] <Hileville> 30 seconds
[17 May 22:34] <Hileville> 15 seconds
[17 May 22:34] <Hileville> 5 seconds
[17 May 22:34] <Romanoffia> The other idea is to encourage role play on the RMB and forum. This additional idea is to create a forum section that is essentially a 'streets of Magicallity role playing "city"
[17 May 22:34] <Hileville> Time
[17 May 22:34] <Hileville> Eluvatar is on the clock
[17 May 22:34] <Eluvatar> I think it is appropriate to encourage the Role Play section on the main board, through participation.
[17 May 22:35] <Eluvatar> I've been helping to kick things off, I think, and I will have more time to do so this summer.
[17 May 22:35] <Eluvatar> In particular, I hope to use the position of Delegate to encourage north pacificans interested in RP to join in our RP.
[17 May 22:35] <Hileville> 1 minute
[17 May 22:35] <Eluvatar> I think that we can get going a diplomatic and narrative game of some interest.
[17 May 22:36] <Hileville> 30 sec.
[17 May 22:36] <Hileville> 10 seconds
[17 May 22:36] <Eluvatar> (over)
[17 May 22:36] <Hileville> Roman?
[17 May 22:36] <Romanoffia> This is something that I think everyone is on the same page with.
[17 May 22:37] <Hileville> We will move on then.
[17 May 22:37] <Romanoffia> We need a cooperative effort from everyone on the forum as well as in the region in general. As Delegate, one of my main tasks is to promote the region though a Plan.
[17 May 22:37] <Romanoffia> PR plan, that is.
[17 May 22:38] <Hileville> From now if you want a rebuttal please ask for it.
[17 May 22:38] <Romanoffia> K
[17 May 22:38] <Hileville> Elu would you like a rebuttal?
[17 May 22:38] <Eluvatar> Aye
[17 May 22:38] <Hileville> Go ahead
[17 May 22:39] <Eluvatar> Romanoffia, what experience have you had with national role play, out of curiosity?
[17 May 22:39] <Romanoffia> National role play? In what context?
[17 May 22:39] <Eluvatar> NationStates context
[17 May 22:40] <Hileville> Roman may respond if he wises
[17 May 22:40] <Romanoffia> Heh - I've been involved in the government of TNP for quite a while off and on.
[17 May 22:40] <Hileville> *wishes
[17 May 22:40] <Romanoffia> I've worked in 'other channel' diplomacy roles in terms of RP...
[17 May 22:40] <Hileville> Time has expired for that question.
[17 May 22:40] <Romanoffia> One of which was convincing Gates to remove Gatesville forces from TNP.
[17 May 22:41] <Hileville> And a question from an observer: Given the recent controversey in Warzone Airspace what do you think the role of outside organizations in a Feeder region is?
[17 May 22:41] <Hileville> Eluvatar is first and is on the clock
[17 May 22:41] <Eluvatar> Outside organizations?
[17 May 22:41] <Eluvatar> I'm going to assume that doesn't mean just UDL
[17 May 22:42] <Eluvatar> but means any kind of organization outside the region itself.
[17 May 22:42] <Hileville> I would assume you are correct
[17 May 22:42] <Eluvatar> I think that there should be no role for outside organizations in a feeder region's governance. We can have relations with them of course, and we can seek to befriend or oppose any organizations we choose to,
[17 May 22:42] <Hileville> 1 minute
[17 May 22:42] <Eluvatar> but we must never permit any organization influence over our governance.
[17 May 22:43] <Eluvatar> We were burned badly enough with the struggles over ADN influence in TNP.
[17 May 22:43] <Eluvatar> Never again.
[17 May 22:43] <Eluvatar> Any organization we are involved with, we must be an equal partner.
[17 May 22:43] <Hileville> 30 seconds
[17 May 22:43] <Eluvatar> (over)
[17 May 22:43] <Hileville> Roman is on the clock
[17 May 22:43] <Romanoffia> Well, I don't think TNP should be a safe harbor for other people's conflicts. Nor do I believe that there should be any influence exerted over the region other than by legitimate citizens.
[17 May 22:44] <Romanoffia> I also do not believe that government members of TNP should have any affiliation with outside organizations in the role of being members of that organization.
[17 May 22:44] <Hileville> 1 minute
[17 May 22:44] <Romanoffia> I say this because you do not want those outside organizations to have undue influence over the internal affairs of TNP
[17 May 22:45] <Hileville> 30
[17 May 22:45] <Hileville> 10
[17 May 22:45] <Romanoffia> To permit any outside influence in the form of dual loyalties is a danger to regional sovereignty.
[17 May 22:45] <-- Earth left the channel
[17 May 22:45] <Hileville> time
[17 May 22:46] <Hileville> Would Eluvatar like a rebuttal period?
[17 May 22:46] <Eluvatar> Hm.
[17 May 22:46] <Eluvatar> I am surprised by the severity of Romanoffia's position
[17 May 22:46] <Eluvatar> It would remove most of the government.
[17 May 22:47] <Eluvatar> And it is not possible for me to renounc eall ties to Taijitu
[17 May 22:47] <Hileville> 20 seconds
[17 May 22:47] <Eluvatar> well, possible but it would be highly immoral for me to abandon it.
[17 May 22:47] <Eluvatar> I don't think it'd be in TNP's interest to be so restrictive.
[17 May 22:48] <Hileville> time
[17 May 22:48] <Hileville> Roman?
[17 May 22:48] <Romanoffia> Rebuttal -
[17 May 22:48] <Hileville> Go ahead
[17 May 22:48] <Romanoffia> I have a fairly strict view as to citizenship..
[17 May 22:48] <Hileville> 30 seconds
[17 May 22:49] <Romanoffia> One should be exclusively loyal to one's region, native or adopted and not have anything that may result in a conflict of interests.
[17 May 22:49] <Hileville> 10
[17 May 22:49] <Romanoffia> It might be a severe position, but it is a secure one.
[17 May 22:49] <Hileville> time.
[17 May 22:49] <Eluvatar> May I please follow up on this?
[17 May 22:49] <Eluvatar> It would be a shame to drop this interesting subject.
[17 May 22:49] <Romanoffia> Sure.
[17 May 22:49] <Hileville> Yes.
[17 May 22:50] <Hileville> Both candidates may comment freely on this subject for the next 2 minute
[17 May 22:50] <Eluvatar> Could I ask for a recess however?
[17 May 22:50] <Eluvatar> Somethin'gs come up >_<
[17 May 22:50] <Hileville> Okay. How long?
[17 May 22:51] <Eluvatar> WOuld a half hour be all right?
[17 May 22:51] <Romanoffia> Fine with me.
[17 May 22:51] <Hileville> That is fine.
[17 May 23:02] <Eluvatar> Well that only took 10 minutes, I'm no longer completely away.
[17 May 23:02] <Romanoffia> Welcome back.
[17 May 23:04] <Eluvatar> Your approach would leave no more than 18 RA members
[17 May 23:04] <Romanoffia> I have no real objections to 'organizations' that transcend regional boundaries, but I do object when those organizations are represented as an arm of another region.
[17 May 23:04] --- Hileville changed mode: +o Dali
[17 May 23:04] <Eluvatar> the only members of our 'current' government who's be left would be Associate Justice FALCONKATS and Vice Delegate Pasargad
[17 May 23:05] <Eluvatar> ( mcmasterdonia has already been elected instead of Felasia of course )
[17 May 23:05] <Eluvatar> *Pasargad
[17 May 23:05] <Romanoffia> But why, I ask you, are loyalties to other regions a benefit to TNP?
[17 May 23:05] <Eluvatar> THat's not how I see it
[17 May 23:05] <Eluvatar> if we become exclusionist, we will lose people.
[17 May 23:05] <Eluvatar> This will hurt us.
[17 May 23:05] <Eluvatar> In addition, the organization primarily related to this question, the UDL, is non-regional.
[17 May 23:05] <Eluvatar> It is not the arm of any region.

Click to expand...

#tnp_debates:

[17 May 23:06] <Dali> Welcome back, ladies and gents, to the May 2012 TNP Delegate Run-off Debate! If the candidates can shush for a few moments, I'd like to have us begin the next round.
[17 May 23:06] <Romanoffia> If it is non-regional, then there is no problem.
[17 May 23:06] <Eluvatar> But it is viewed with suspicion by many because many UDL members are in feeder regions
[17 May 23:06] <Eluvatar> and have been upset by things that defenders are typically upset by
[17 May 23:06] <Eluvatar> There have been many arguments in the South Pacific, I'd rather not get involved into the details.
[17 May 23:06] <Romanoffia> As I said, if an organization is non-regional, then there should be no issue with it.
[17 May 23:07] <Eluvatar> On the other hand I believe that no organization should be allowed to influence us
[17 May 23:07] <Eluvatar> any members of any region or organization should leave their outside interests by the door.
[17 May 23:07] <Romanoffia> I agree with that.
[17 May 23:07] <Dali> To begin the second round, and this ties into the current discussion between the two candidates, I'd like to hear your thoughts on the MPA and how it may relate to TNP.
[17 May 23:07] <Eluvatar> And if htey cannot, they should abstain.
[17 May 23:07] <Eluvatar> *they
[17 May 23:07] <Dali> Elu, you may start first, and you have two minutes.
[17 May 23:07] <Eluvatar> The Modern Pacific Alliance is worth evaluating for alliance with the North Pacific.
[17 May 23:08] <Romanoffia> I agree.
[17 May 23:08] <Eluvatar> We should have a discussion in the Regional Assembly about it.
[17 May 23:08] <Romanoffia> I agree with that too.
[17 May 23:08] <Eluvatar> I believe that there are some benefits but also some limitations we would take on.
[17 May 23:08] <Eluvatar> I certainly think that the treaties the previous government negotiated should be ratified first
[17 May 23:08] <Eluvatar> So as to be grandfathered in under MPA's restrictive rules.
[17 May 23:08] <Dali> 1 minute
[17 May 23:08] <Romanoffia> And those limitations should be carefully examined and all untied treaty ends need to be tied up.
[17 May 23:09] <Eluvatar> The North Pacific can and should be a leader on the interregional stage.
[17 May 23:09] <Romanoffia> But as I say, outside organization that do not represent a specific region are fine and are part an parcel.
[17 May 23:09] <Eluvatar> If MPA helps us achieve that, I am entirely for it.
[17 May 23:10] <Romanoffia> And of course TNP should be at the head of any cooperative efforts, even between regions in a diplomatic sense.
[17 May 23:10] <Dali> As I'd like this discussion to continue a little further, I'm granting you three more minutes to debate between yourselves
[17 May 23:10] <Eluvatar> Well it is sufficient for me for TNP to be an equal.
[17 May 23:10] <Eluvatar> I wouldn't demand that we be the senior partner in all relations.
[17 May 23:11] <Romanoffia> It shouldn't be any other way, but such alliances and arrangements should be primarily in the interest of TNP as this is our region.
[17 May 23:11] <Eluvatar> Of course, but our regional interest should not be read narrowly.
[17 May 23:11] <Eluvatar> If our interest is limited exclusively to the raw preservation of our security
[17 May 23:11] <Eluvatar> then we will have a very boring time
[17 May 23:11] <Eluvatar> and, ironically, weaken our security.
[17 May 23:12] <Romanoffia> Not really.
[17 May 23:12] <Eluvatar> It is necessary for serious security for us to be relevant.
[17 May 23:13] <Dali> As a change to this discussion, I'd like to hear your thoughts on what would be your ideal type of organization TNP could join, be it a defender org, a raider org, a mutual defence org, or something else?
[17 May 23:13] <Romanoffia> If we sacrifice our security that leak will eventually be exploited by outside interests that do not have our intrests
[17 May 23:13] <Romanoffia> at heart
[17 May 23:13] <Romanoffia> Ok,
[17 May 23:13] <Eluvatar> I obviously don't think we should join a raider org, but I don't think joining a defender org would be appropriate right now either.
[17 May 23:13] <Eluvatar> Most obviously we should not join any organization which would force us to punish our well-respected invader citizens.
[17 May 23:14] <Eluvatar> A mutual defense organization may be a good idea, but insufficient in my view.
[17 May 23:15] <Romanoffia> I agree fully with that position. But I do think that having the Army of TNP examine and test all strategies and tactics, including raiding but apply them to the defense of our region and our allies' regions.
[17 May 23:15] <Eluvatar> Well it would be the height of stupidity to ignore techniques just because they could be used to invade a region.
[17 May 23:15] <Eluvatar> But defending just our own region and our allies regions is not enough to maintain an effective military.
[17 May 23:15] <Eluvatar> Unless we actively seek out allies, perhaps.
[17 May 23:15] <Eluvatar> But even that might not be enough.
[17 May 23:16] <Romanoffia> Well, some people are so anti-raider that they tend to ignore raiders out of hand.
[17 May 23:16] <Eluvatar> For our military to be useful *to us*, we need to keep it active.
[17 May 23:16] <Eluvatar> We need to train new members and keep them active in that role, and the only way is by doing.
[17 May 23:16] <Eluvatar> I would advise the NPA on how to achieve this,
[17 May 23:17] <Eluvatar> but I would prefer to guide it with a light hand, leaving most decisions to the membership in general and the Minister in particular.
[17 May 23:17] <Romanoffia> I've been MoD and a General in the TNP Army. One of the deficiencies we have is that we have let our defenses slip as well as our intelligence capabilities (BW can be commended for reviving the Army).
[17 May 23:18] <Eluvatar> It would be enough in my view for me to require that they not ruin us through truly reckless acts
[17 May 23:18] <Romanoffia> The military should be able to determine its course of action but not as an entirely independent of the government organization. It should be employed for the defense of the region under executive authority.
[17 May 23:18] <Eluvatar> like, say, invading a region that has done us no wrong
[17 May 23:18] <Eluvatar> I don't think that a mandate of protecting TNP is enough for the military to sustain itself.
[17 May 23:18] <Romanoffia> They key here is to not be the initiator of force.
[17 May 23:19] <Eluvatar> It can and should have other roles, to keep it on its toes.
[17 May 23:19] <Eluvatar> We should not however rush ahead into defending. At least not without consensus.
[17 May 23:19] <Romanoffia> Of course. I suggested in my campaign to revive exercises in the War Zones as a training tool.
[17 May 23:20] <Eluvatar> I do not intend to allow the defense of regions with no relation to us unless the RA comes to a consensus in favor of such a policy.
[17 May 23:20] <Dali> Next question! And this is a hypothetical one, so make due with it as you will. Presuming you are elected, by the end of your term, what five things do you hope to achieve?
[17 May 23:20] <Eluvatar> War Zones are good, but also not enough in my opinion.
[17 May 23:20] <Romanoffia> We also need to revive our intel capabilities so that if we do end up defending another region that we know everything we need to know about those regions.
[17 May 23:21] <Eluvatar> 1. A dozen treaties. 2. One new unified comprehensive Legal Code. 3. One new simplified and efficient but still free and open constitution.
[17 May 23:21] <Romanoffia> I can agree 100% with that, but it takes a cooperative effort which we need to develop ....
[17 May 23:21] <Eluvatar> 4. The NPA as a force to be reckoned with, on par with any other single region's military excluding 10KI.
[17 May 23:22] <Romanoffia> That means changing the culture of distrust that has developed in the government in general.
[17 May 23:22] <Eluvatar> 5. At least some improvement in the involvement of the ordinary nations of TNP, either via RP or via RMB political involevement or via WA involvement or all of the above.
[17 May 23:22] <Eluvatar> *involvement
[17 May 23:22] <Dali> Roman, your five please!
[17 May 23:23] <Romanoffia> Sorry, I thought this was a back-and-fourth. My bad.
[17 May 23:24] <Eluvatar> Is Influence going to come up?
[17 May 23:24] <Dali> If we have time, perhaps
[17 May 23:26] <Dali> As a note, I need to head off in four minutes, so if you two wish to continue, feel free to find *another* Moderator
[17 May 23:28] <Eluvatar> I think Romanoffia's time might be up?
[17 May 23:28] <Eluvatar> maybe?
[17 May 23:28] <Romanoffia> This got a little confuzzled.
[17 May 23:29] <Dali> If he doesn't answer by 8:30, then yes
[17 May 23:29] <Dali> my time, that is
[17 May 23:29] <Romanoffia> Is influence going to come up?
[17 May 23:29] <Romanoffia> In what context?
[17 May 23:29] <Eluvatar> no the question is
[17 May 23:29] <Eluvatar> 23:20 <@Dali> Next question! And this is a hypothetical one, so make due with it as you will. Presuming you are elected, by the end of your term, what five things do you hope to achieve?
[17 May 23:30] <Romanoffia> Oh, sorry.
[17 May 23:30] <Romanoffia> 1.) To reform the Constitution to simplify it substantially, but preserve checks and balances.
[17 May 23:31] <Hileville> Okay we will go another minute on this Roman.
[17 May 23:31] <Romanoffia> 2.) To reform the legal code and to create a technical common law aspect to provide for jurisprudence (judicial application of laws and principles in those laws to items not absolutely specifically mentioned in those laws.
[17 May 23:32] --- Hileville changed mode: -o Dali|afk
[17 May 23:32] <Hileville> And time.
[17 May 23:32] <Romanoffia> 3.) To increase activity and participation by programs designed to encourage RPing, by engaging other regions, by using the RMB as a specific tool to that end.
[17 May 23:32] <Eluvatar> How would common law play in NationStates?
[17 May 23:33] <Romanoffia> First, one has to understand what the term means in a technical sense of the word...
[17 May 23:33] <Eluvatar> And could we expect it to look like this: http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic/634169/
[17 May 23:33] <Hileville> Okay lets finish this up.
[17 May 23:34] <Romanoffia> Common law involves the application of principles contained in specific laws to certain offenses not specifically covered by a specific law.
[17 May 23:34] <Romanoffia> For example -
[17 May 23:35] <Romanoffia> The concept of fraud is contained in the election law codes, and under common law and jurisprudence "fraud" can be applied as an offense to fraudulent acts. That simple.
[17 May 23:35] <Romanoffia> Done.
[17 May 23:35] <Eluvatar> What about tort?
[17 May 23:36] <Eluvatar> NIED?
[17 May 23:36] <Hileville> Okay we are going to move on now.
[17 May 23:36] <Romanoffia> That would be a prime example for the application of common law principles. And act which causes harm with malice of forethought is a tort.
[17 May 23:36] <Eluvatar> I'm a little worried about the can of worms we could open by acceptin gcommon law.
[17 May 23:36] <Eluvatar> If one could be sued for "acts which cause harm with malice aforthought," the courts could become quite busy
[17 May 23:36] <Eluvatar> and the region could become quite empty.
[17 May 23:36] <Eluvatar> In my opinion.
[17 May 23:36] <Romanoffia> Not really an issue if it's application is strictly to apply principles of law to other non-specified offenses.
[17 May 23:37] <Eluvatar> So we would have non-specified offenses, which you'd have to read up on Common Law to be aware you could violate?
[17 May 23:37] <Romanoffia> I'm talking offenses like fraud, slander, libel, defamation of character, ones in which fraud or mal-intent is the main motivation.
[17 May 23:38] <Hileville> 1 MORE MINUTE AND WE ARE MOVING ON
[17 May 23:38] <Eluvatar> I recall you accused Blackshear of slander
[17 May 23:39] <Hileville> 10 SECONDS
[17 May 23:39] <Eluvatar> You stand by that?
[17 May 23:39] <Romanoffia> The idea of common law is to apply precedent as it pertains to specific principles contained in other laws. I.e.: Voting fraud - the principle behind the law is 'fraud', ergo, any fraudulent and malicious act could be prosecuted as fraud.
[17 May 23:39] <Romanoffia> I did indeed. Under the definition of slander,
[17 May 23:39] <Hileville> TIME
[17 May 23:39] <Hileville> The North Pacific Army was recently rebooted. What are your plans for this group?
[17 May 23:40] <Hileville> Roman is first and is now on the clock
[17 May 23:41] <Hileville> 1 minute remaining
[17 May 23:41] <Romanoffia> My plans are to develop the Army as much as possible and to make it the biggest and best military force in NationStates. It needs to be organized properly and it needs to have an enticing recruitment plan to attract members.
[17 May 23:41] <Hileville> 30 seconds remaining
[17 May 23:41] <Romanoffia> The Army will be employed in defense of the region as a primary goal and to fulfill any treaty obligations we have or may have in the future.
[17 May 23:41] <Hileville> 10
[17 May 23:42] <Romanoffia> Done.
[17 May 23:42] <Hileville> TIME.
[17 May 23:42] <Hileville> Eluvatar is on the clock
[17 May 23:42] <Eluvatar> do I rebut first
[17 May 23:42] <Eluvatar> or speak?
[17 May 23:42] <Eluvatar> ah
[17 May 23:42] <Hileville> Speak first
[17 May 23:43] <Hileville> or do both just say something.
[17 May 23:43] <Eluvatar> I want to see The North Pacific Army become the greatest regional army other than TITO by the end of my term.
[17 May 23:43] <Eluvatar> To that purpose it needs to have recruitment of course, but more importantly it needs to *do something*.
[17 May 23:43] <Hileville> 45 seconds
[17 May 23:43] <Eluvatar> If possible, it'd be best for that something to simply be Warzone games and defense of our region and our allies
[17 May 23:44] <Hileville> 10
[17 May 23:44] <Eluvatar> but if it's insufficient to the goal of a serious military, we may have to look into other options as well.
[17 May 23:44] <Eluvatar> I'll be all ears.
[17 May 23:44] <Hileville> TIME.
[17 May 23:44] <Romanoffia> Rebuttal - Why be second best when we can be *the* best. Simply deploying the military for the sake of deploying the military is not a good Idea.
[17 May 23:44] <Eluvatar> may I respond now Roman?
[17 May 23:44] <Hileville> Okay we are doing rebuttals a little bit differntly now. There will be a period of 3 minutes where you both may speak starting now.
[17 May 23:44] <Eluvatar> You intend for it to outnumber the entire UDL, to outnumber TITO?
[17 May 23:44] <Romanoffia> Military actions for the sake of military actions is a good way to get into trouble,
[17 May 23:45] <Eluvatar> Do you understand what you're promising Romanoffia?
[17 May 23:45] <Hileville> 2 minutes
[17 May 23:45] <Eluvatar> I am honest and I'm not going to promise that the NPA will be able to gather two dozen people for a single update operation at a day's notice.
[17 May 23:45] <Romanoffia> I understand that a military force that is for defensive purposes needs to be big. But not aggressive nor intrusive nor the initiator of force.
[17 May 23:46] <Eluvatar> I'm not going to promise that NPA will be able to deploy fifty people over the course of a day.
[17 May 23:46] <Romanoffia> Not without proper preparation.
[17 May 23:46] <Eluvatar> Those aren't realistic promises, we'd need extraordinary success which I can hope for but I cannot honestly promise.
[17 May 23:46] <Romanoffia> My goal is to create a number one military organization but not flaunt it by deploying it for the sake of deploying it.
[17 May 23:46] <Hileville> 1 minute.
[17 May 23:46] <Eluvatar> We can match everyone else.
[17 May 23:47] <Eluvatar> We need to deploy to keep our deployable people
[17 May 23:47] <Eluvatar> this is not a reasonable argument.
[17 May 23:47] <Romanoffia> We can do better than anyone else.
[17 May 23:47] <Eluvatar> In NationStates, idle armies die.
[17 May 23:47] <Eluvatar> I would certainly seek for us to do so
[17 May 23:47] <Eluvatar> but we probably can't get there in 4 months.
[17 May 23:47] <Romanoffia> But we don't need to go looking for trouble by sending our military into conflicts for the sake of doing so.
[17 May 23:47] <Eluvatar> We certainly can't become the best if we do nothing.
[17 May 23:48] <Eluvatar> I don't wish to involve us in conflicts just for the sake of doing so.
[17 May 23:48] <Romanoffia> True, but looking for trouble is not the answer to that problem.
[17 May 23:48] <Eluvatar> We should find regions which we would like to remain protected,
[17 May 23:48] <Eluvatar> and then actively defend them.
[17 May 23:48] <Hileville> Follow up: There are other GCR's in which have a regional army. Would you like the NPA to work with them in operations?
[17 May 23:48] <Romanoffia> There is no wisdom in apply force if not applied wisely.
[17 May 23:48] <Eluvatar> Certainly
[17 May 23:48] <Eluvatar> There is no force to apply if it is not applied liberally
[17 May 23:48] <Romanoffia> Of course, if there is a good reason for doing so.
[17 May 23:48] <Hileville> This will go for another few minutes as it is good debate.
[17 May 23:49] <Eluvatar> Do you think the NPA's attacks on Gatesville puppet regions after Gatesville went back to war with TNP in 2008
[17 May 23:49] <Eluvatar> was reasonable?
[17 May 23:49] <Romanoffia> What I am saying is that you don't simply send the army on a mission just to keep the army busy. You keep them busy through exercizes
[17 May 23:50] <Eluvatar> Meaningless exercizes are unfulfilling
[17 May 23:50] <Eluvatar> we need to keep the engagement of our soldiers.
[17 May 23:50] <Romanoffia> As per attacking gatesville puppet regions?
[17 May 23:50] <Romanoffia> Of course it was a good idea because it cause the diversion of Gatesville's forces.
[17 May 23:50] <Romanoffia> I was the one who came up with that response.
[17 May 23:50] <Eluvatar> You say you were behind Operation Jeff Probst?
[17 May 23:51] <Hileville> Okay anothe rminute to finish your thoughts.
[17 May 23:51] <Eluvatar> Because I was under the impression that was all Khark's idea
[17 May 23:51] <Eluvatar> http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic/634573/1/
[17 May 23:51] <Romanoffia> No, but my theory was applied as I was requested to do so.
[17 May 23:51] <Romanoffia> I talked to Khark about it.
[17 May 23:52] <Hileville> Okay we will move on.
[17 May 23:52] <Romanoffia> Remember, I was NPIA. I did a lot of the prep and theory work.
[17 May 23:53] <Hileville> What are your thoughts on recruitment messages being posted on the RMB and how will you go about adressing it?
[17 May 23:53] <Hileville> Eluvatar is on the clock
[17 May 23:53] <Eluvatar> By whom
[17 May 23:54] <Eluvatar> other regions?
[17 May 23:54] <Hileville> Other regions yes.
[17 May 23:54] <Hileville> Including other GCR's.
[17 May 23:54] <Eluvatar> I think that our tradition of forcing them to follow an entertaining format is brilliant
[17 May 23:54] <Eluvatar> it helps keep our RMB alive, even.
[17 May 23:54] <Hileville> 45 seconds
[17 May 23:55] <Eluvatar> Simply banning it would get them all to go GGR and post whatever the heck long post they felt like.
[17 May 23:55] <Eluvatar> So I think that coming up with weekly formats is the best way.
[17 May 23:55] <Hileville> 30 seconds
[17 May 23:55] <Eluvatar> SOme feeders have engaged regions which offend them through RMB spam.
[17 May 23:55] <Eluvatar> Militarily.
[17 May 23:55] <Hileville> TIME
[17 May 23:55] <Hileville> Roman is on the clock.
[17 May 23:55] <Romanoffia> I think the way to deal with recruiters is to take control of our RMB. I did this way back when I was MoC. All that is needed to really control the RMB is to make it just a little more difficult for recruitment spammers.
[17 May 23:56] <Hileville> 1 minute.
[17 May 23:57] <Romanoffia> Sure, do what BW does by creating interesting rules for spammers. If they break those rules and make a sufficient pain in the ass of themselves, warn them. If they interfere and cause trouble to disrupt the RMB or even bother the forum...
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[17 May 23:57] <Romanoffia> Then that might be a good time to apply military force.
[17 May 23:57] <Hileville> 20 seconds
[17 May 23:57] <Romanoffia> And thump them if they continue to disrupt the region.
[17 May 23:57] <Hileville> TIME
[17 May 23:58] <Hileville> Does either party want more time for this topic?
[17 May 23:58] <Eluvatar> I think we should reserve a military response for only the most egregious of offenders, with community consensus behind action.
[17 May 23:58] <Romanoffia> Only if Elu does.
[17 May 23:58] <Eluvatar> I have nothing else to say about adspam right now.
[17 May 23:58] <Romanoffia> I can agree with Elu on this specific point.
[17 May 23:58] <Hileville> Okay.
[17 May 23:59] <Hileville> It will be a minute before the next quesetion.
[18 May 00:01] <Eluvatar> We didn't talk about Romanoffia's views on external involvement enough in my opinion
[18 May 00:01] <Hileville> External involvement?
[18 May 00:01] <Romanoffia> Please, go on.
[18 May 00:01] <Eluvatar> Would you consider RA membership a government position?
[18 May 00:02] <Eluvatar> 22:44 <+Romanoffia> I also do not believe that government members of TNP should have any affiliation with outside organizations in the role of being members of that organization.
[18 May 00:02] <Eluvatar> I mean, is an RA member a government member?
[18 May 00:02] <Hileville> How about 3 more minutes on this topic.
[18 May 00:02] <Romanoffia> Technically, yes because the RA is the Legislative Branch of the government, constitutionally.
[18 May 00:02] <Eluvatar> So of our 30 RA members,
[18 May 00:03] <Eluvatar> you would wish at least 12 of them to leave.
[18 May 00:03] <Romanoffia> No. I'm not implying that by any means.
[18 May 00:03] <Eluvatar> at least you would have them choose between any other regions and TNP?
[18 May 00:04] <Romanoffia> If they are citizens of TNP, their loyalties should be to TNP.
[18 May 00:04] <Eluvatar> Felasia, Unibot, Eluvatar, Dyr Nasad, Mahaj, Haor Chall, flemingovia, rufusexc, Earth, mcmasterdonia, Gulliver, Todd McCloud, Zaolat, Ganzjar, Govindia, John Ashcroft Land, Grosseschnauzer, Hileville, Jamie, and Blue Wolf II aren't loyal to TNP in your view?
[18 May 00:04] <Romanoffia> No, I never said nor implied that.
[18 May 00:05] <Eluvatar> So you didn't mean what you said?
[18 May 00:05] <Eluvatar> I'm at a loss
[18 May 00:05] <Hileville> FOLLOW UP: Roman, can you explain in more detail what you meant by "If they are citizens of TNP, their loyalties should be to TNP."
[18 May 00:05] <Romanoffia> They have taken oaths to TNP and I presume that their primary interests are with TNP, not foreign governments.
[18 May 00:05] <Eluvatar> You don't believe in duality?
[18 May 00:06] <Eluvatar> That one can keep roles separate?
[18 May 00:06] <Romanoffia> If it isn't a conflict of interest when conflicts arise.
[18 May 00:06] <Romanoffia> Oh,
[18 May 00:06] <Romanoffia> You are talking about it in a Role Playing context.
[18 May 00:06] <Eluvatar> No I'm not
[18 May 00:06] <Eluvatar> At least, not conventionally
[18 May 00:06] <Romanoffia> Yes your are Eluvatar"That one can keep roles separate?"
[18 May 00:06] <Eluvatar> I mean a role as in, for example, my role as a democratic advocate and politician in TNP
[18 May 00:07] <Romanoffia> and?
[18 May 00:07] <Eluvatar> is separate from my role as a jurist in Taijitu
[18 May 00:07] <Eluvatar> One does not rule the other.
[18 May 00:07] <Eluvatar> I do not seek to advance TNP interests in Taijitu, or Taijitu interests in TNP.
[18 May 00:07] <Romanoffia> I don't see it as a conflict as long as Taijitu is not at war with TNP.
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[18 May 00:08] <Romanoffia> Personally, I think you do a fine job of not letting one role influence another.
[18 May 00:08] <Eluvatar> But you said "I also do not believe that government members of TNP should have any affiliation with outside organizations..."
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[18 May 00:08] <Hileville> We will go another 2-3 minutes on this topic and then move on.
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[18 May 00:08] <Romanoffia> That's my personal opinion. Any changes would have to be properly legislated and the will of the RA.
[18 May 00:08] <Eluvatar> So which is your personal opinion?
[18 May 00:09] <Eluvatar> That it's okay so long as the outside organization isn't in conflict or TNP
[18 May 00:09] <Eluvatar> or that it's not okay?
[18 May 00:09] <Romanoffia> I intend to keep my role as Delegate above politics, personal or otherwise.
[18 May 00:09] <Romanoffia> As long as the outside organization isn't in conflict with TNP, it's not really an issue.
[18 May 00:09] <Eluvatar> Not really an issue, but still an issue in a limitd way?
[18 May 00:10] <Eluvatar> *limited
[18 May 00:10] <Romanoffia> Since we have no constitutional or legal code that handles this issue, it is not the Delegate's concern to enforce an opinion on the matter.
[18 May 00:10] <Eluvatar> We do have a law which enforces your second opinion.
[18 May 00:10] <Eluvatar> TNP Law 14 bans involvement in regions or organizations at war with TNP.
[18 May 00:11] <Romanoffia> Of course it does.
[18 May 00:11] <Eluvatar> And in my proposed revamp that gets folded into the criminal code chapter,
[18 May 00:11] <Eluvatar> making things actually comprehensible
[18 May 00:11] <Romanoffia> As it should.
[18 May 00:11] <Romanoffia> It would qualify as Treason.
[18 May 00:11] <Eluvatar> That's where I put it.
[18 May 00:11] <Hileville> 30 SECONDS LEFT
[18 May 00:12] <Eluvatar> But you've expressed disapprobation of external involvement
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[18 May 00:12] <Eluvatar> do you believe that there is an issue with those 12 RA members?
[18 May 00:12] <Eluvatar> Felasia, Unibot, Eluvatar, Dyr Nasad, Mahaj, Haor Chall, flemingovia, rufusexc, Earth, mcmasterdonia, Gulliver, Todd McCloud, Zaolat, Ganzjar, Govindia, John Ashcroft Land, Grosseschnauzer, Hileville, Jamie, and Blue Wolf II
[18 May 00:12] <Romanoffia> No, not at all.
[18 May 00:12] <Hileville> TIME IS UP
[18 May 00:13] <Hileville> Next question: Do you think that TNP should return to directly electing government ministers, as opposed to the delegate appointed method that is used now?
[18 May 00:13] <Hileville> Eluvatar is up first this time I believe.
[18 May 00:13] <Eluvatar> I'm interested in exploring some more popular involvement;
[18 May 00:13] <Eluvatar> in my platform I've declared I will experiment with an elected Council of Five.
[18 May 00:13] <Eluvatar> I'm still skeptical of electing people to specific roles however
[18 May 00:14] <Eluvatar> I think it occasionally limited us back when we had the activity.
[18 May 00:14] <Eluvatar> I think that we're stepping in the right direction by involving the people more in the ministries with the Omnibus amendment,
[18 May 00:14] <Hileville> 1 minute.
[18 May 00:14] <Eluvatar> which allows the RA to fill vacant ministries.
[18 May 00:14] <Eluvatar> That was a good idea by Limi.
[18 May 00:14] <-- Sopo left the channel
[18 May 00:14] <Eluvatar> But we should seek better improvements.
[18 May 00:14] <Hileville> 30 SECONDS
[18 May 00:15] <-- Milograd left the channel
[18 May 00:15] <Eluvatar> (over)
[18 May 00:15] <Hileville> Roman is on the clock
[18 May 00:15] <-- stgeorge left the channel
[18 May 00:15] <Romanoffia> Appointed Cabinet members is more efficient but I tend towards a preference to elected ministers and the use of an elected cabinet as an advise/consent element.
[18 May 00:16] <Hileville> 1 Minute
[18 May 00:16] <Romanoffia> But that is up to the RA to explore and constitutionally not the Delegate's rule to experiment by creating new government schemes without constitutional/legal/legislative prerequisites.
[18 May 00:17] <Eluvatar> The historical record is highly ambiguous about the efficiency of appointed ministries. It's also been abused, as noted in JAL's tale of how he got into power by promising ministries to supporters.
[18 May 00:17] <Romanoffia> Done,
[18 May 00:17] <Hileville> TIME
[18 May 00:17] <Eluvatar> oops
[18 May 00:17] <-- Rach left the channel
[18 May 00:17] <Eluvatar> Sorry I spoke slightly too soon.
[18 May 00:17] <Romanoffia> ;D
[18 May 00:17] <Eluvatar> >_<
[18 May 00:17] <Hileville> Any more comments on this subject
[18 May 00:17] <Eluvatar> I don't think that it's in any way a violation of the Constitution
[18 May 00:17] <Romanoffia> I'd like to comment and reitterate -
[18 May 00:18] <Eluvatar> for me to apply my own discretion if I am Delegate to ask the people for advice.
[18 May 00:18] <Hileville> Feel free to speak.
[18 May 00:18] <Romanoffia> I prefer an elected cabinet to prevent 'influence' rewards/peddling.
[18 May 00:18] <Eluvatar> There is also precedent; Tresville elected his ministers as Delegate, despite being empowered to appoint them.
[18 May 00:18] <Romanoffia> I know, I was one of his Cabinet members in several capacities.
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[18 May 00:19] <Hileville> TIME
[18 May 00:20] <Eluvatar> http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic/634720/ ?
[18 May 00:21] <Hileville> The final part of the debate will compirse of both candidates getting 3 minutes to state why TNP should vote for them. If both parties agree after each has had there 3 minutes there will be a final period to rebuttal the comments made lasting no more than 5 minutes.
[18 May 00:21] <Romanoffia> Technically, if a Delegate wishes to have his cabinet elected, and is willing to abide by it, it is within his powers.
[18 May 00:21] <Eluvatar> Sure thing Commissioner.
[18 May 00:22] <Romanoffia> Of course.
[18 May 00:22] <Eluvatar> For the record, I was referring to his 2008 term
[18 May 00:22] <Eluvatar> His previous term as Prime Minister, the constitution required elected ministers.
[18 May 00:22] <Romanoffia> I am aware of that.
[18 May 00:23] <Hileville> Eluvatar will go first and his 3 minutes begin now.
[18 May 00:24] <Hileville> 2 minutes
[18 May 00:24] <Eluvatar> I believe I have the skills, temperament, and loyalties to lead this region to continue its revival. I think that I can facilitate your rebuilding your region to a great one, one which is the envy of NationStates.
[18 May 00:24] <Eluvatar> I think that we can agree to a system of government that leaves us all happy
[18 May 00:24] <Eluvatar> and that we should.
[18 May 00:24] <Eluvatar> I think that we can be a force to be reckoned with, and we should.
[18 May 00:25] <Hileville> 1 minute
[18 May 00:25] <Eluvatar> I will do everything I can to get you to do everything *you* can to achieve this.
[18 May 00:25] <Eluvatar> No one can do it alone.
[18 May 00:25] <Hileville> 30 seconds
[18 May 00:25] <Eluvatar> But together, we have the talent and the experience and the determination to do pretty much anything in NationStates, in the realm of the possible.
[18 May 00:25] <Eluvatar> Let's go for it!
[18 May 00:26] <Hileville> 5 seconds
[18 May 00:26] <Hileville> TIME
[18 May 00:26] <Hileville> Roman is on the clock starting now.
[18 May 00:26] <Romanoffia> Reasons to vote for Romanoffia - Experience: Former Court Justice, MoC, MoD (Deputy MoD) also, General in the Army of The North Pacific. Diplomat - I convinced Gates to remove his forces from TNP using diplomacy alone when military responses failed.
[18 May 00:26] <Romanoffia> Loyalty - I have always been a citizen of The North Pacific and as such, my loyalties are always with TNP.
[18 May 00:27] <Romanoffia> Integrity - I say what I mean, mean what I say and I stick to my principles of democratic government, more representative of the region.
[18 May 00:28] <Romanoffia> I believe that I am the best candidate because I have always been here for the region, no matter the personal cost.
[18 May 00:28] <Hileville> 1 minute.
[18 May 00:28] <Romanoffia> I will put my experience to work for The North Pacific, and for each and every citizen of this region.
[18 May 00:29] <Hileville> TIME.
[18 May 00:29] <Romanoffia> I will work endlessly for the betterment of The North Pacific through Unity and Cooperation toward the goal of making us the prime region to reside and participate in.
[18 May 00:29] <Eluvatar> I think it's disingenuous to personally take credit for the whole of the outcome of the Lewis and Clark war. It was a team effort. None of us could have done it alone. Lewis and Clark would never have fallen if he hadn't needed Gatesville, and he wouldn't have needed Gatesville if the gap betweeen his endorsements and our endorsements wasn't narrow enough.
[18 May 00:29] <Romanoffia> The future is in a different direction than simply maintaining the same base of power.
[18 May 00:29] <Hileville> 5 minute period begins now. Both candidates may speak freely
[18 May 00:29] <Eluvatar> What base of power?
[18 May 00:30] <Eluvatar> Grosseschnauzer's?
[18 May 00:30] <Romanoffia> The same people who have been in charge for extended periods of time.
[18 May 00:30] <Eluvatar> He's the one guy on the SC who voted to let you in!
[18 May 00:30] <Eluvatar> The rest of the SC?
[18 May 00:31] <Eluvatar> I'm trying to see where you're coming from, and it just doesn't grok.
[18 May 00:31] <Romanoffia> We need a different direction and the same exact people who have been there forever aren't hacking it unless they are willing to reform the Constitution and Legal Code.
[18 May 00:31] <Eluvatar> I'm willing to reform it, I'm wanting to reform it, I'm waiting to reform it!
[18 May 00:31] <Romanoffia> The SC isn't an issue here.
[18 May 00:32] <Romanoffia> You may be waiting to reform the region, but I am working right now to reform it whether or not I become Delegate.
[18 May 00:32] <Eluvatar> So what is?
[18 May 00:32] <Eluvatar> I'm waiting on consensus
[18 May 00:32] <Eluvatar> not on the Delegacy.
[18 May 00:32] <Eluvatar> There's a word for reform without consensus.
[18 May 00:33] <Romanoffia> The issue is that the same-old same-old will just get you more of the same. I believe the consensus is that that TNP needs a change for the better. That is up to the RA and citizens of this region to legislate to enact.
[18 May 00:33] <Eluvatar> Absolutely!
[18 May 00:33] <Eluvatar> But we all need to step up to the plate and help.
[18 May 00:33] <Hileville> 1 MINUTE REMAINING
[18 May 00:33] <Romanoffia> I present ideas, I see what people want.
[18 May 00:34] <Eluvatar> Aye
[18 May 00:34] <Hileville> 30 SECONDS REMAINING
[18 May 00:34] <Romanoffia> This need cooperation and direction. The Delegate is supposed to lead.
[18 May 00:34] <Hileville> 15 SECONDS REMAINING
[18 May 00:34] <Hileville> 5 SECONDS REMAINING
[18 May 00:34] <Romanoffia> And by leading I mean rallying the citizens of this region to work for better democracy and a better region.
[18 May 00:34] <Hileville> THE DEBATE IS NOW OVER.
[18 May 00:34] --- Hileville changed mode: -v Romanoffia
[18 May 00:34] --- Hileville changed mode: -v Eluvatar
[18 May 00:35] <Hileville> Thank you to both candidates for participating.

Click to expand...

#tnp_debates:

[24 May 21:57] <-- You left the channel
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[24 May 21:57] --- Eluvatar changed mode: +o Ator_People
[24 May 21:57] --- Eluvatar changed mode: -o Eluvatar
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[24 May 21:58] <Ator_People> Alright, we will begin tonight's debate shortely. Are both candidates ready?
[24 May 21:58] <Ator_People> Can someone keep a transcript? I don't trust this IRC client
[24 May 21:59] <Eluvatar> I can
[24 May 21:59] <Eluvatar> as I did for the last one
[24 May 21:59] <Eluvatar> if that's okay with Romanoffia
[24 May 21:59] <Ator_People> Great, thanks.
[24 May 21:59] <Romanoffia> Of course.
[24 May 21:59] <Ator_People> Great - are you both ready?
[24 May 21:59] <Eluvatar> I believe Romanoffia and I would like, if there are time limits, for them to be slightly longer this time
[24 May 22:00] <Eluvatar> perhaps a minute and a half rather than a minute for responses?
[24 May 22:00] <Romanoffia> Indeed.
[24 May 22:00] <Eluvatar> and maybe 45 seconds for rebuttals?
[24 May 22:00] <Eluvatar> I think Romanoffia just asked that we begin in 5 minutes
[24 May 22:00] <Romanoffia> We can even be a bit lax on the time limits.
[24 May 22:00] <Ator_People> Ok, we will begin in 5 minutes then. And yes, I plan to not be too strict on time.
[24 May 22:00] <Eluvatar> but I would like to ask that you not let us leave us hanging for minutes on end
[24 May 22:01] <Eluvatar> just, reasonable is as reasonable does
[24 May 22:01] <Romanoffia> ;D
[24 May 22:01] <Ator_People> Sounds good - let me put some questions together
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[24 May 22:05] <Ator_People> Are you guys ready?
[24 May 22:06] <Eluvatar> Elu.ready? returns true
[24 May 22:06] <Romanoffia> Ready.
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[24 May 22:06] <Ator_People> Alright. Thank you for joining us today for the second TNP delegate debate for May 2012. If you have any questions, please PM them to me.
[24 May 22:07] <Ator_People> I will give each candidate 90 seconds for a response. Then, if a rebuttal is desired, they will have an additional 45 seconds to respond. I will moderate as necessary.
[24 May 22:07] <Ator_People> Let us begin.
[24 May 22:07] <Ator_People> As it is right now, do you believe the delegate has too much or too little power? Elu, by random draw you will answer first.
[24 May 22:08] <Eluvatar> As it is currently I think that the sweeping discretion in the Delegate's office is perhaps too much for them to consistently handle.
[24 May 22:09] <Eluvatar> I feel that our Delegates since this Constitution was adopted have infrequently failed to, well, delegate properly.
[24 May 22:09] <Eluvatar> Most of the time they cannot be faulted as they could not find the people to delegate to,
[24 May 22:09] <Eluvatar> so I do think that we would be wise to explore ways to help the Delegate delegate.
[24 May 22:10] <Ator_People> Time. Thank you Elu. Roman?
[24 May 22:10] <Romanoffia> The Delegate's authority is a constitutional issue. That said, I believe that constitutions should limit government rather than citizens.
[24 May 22:11] <Romanoffia> That said, constitutionally speaking, we should approach the issue in terms of limiting the latitude of the delegate to act, especially in certain arbitrary actions that directly affect how the region is governed.
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[24 May 22:11] <Romanoffia> Given that the Delegate has great powers in terms of game mechanics...
[24 May 22:12] <Romanoffia> I think that the duties of the delegate should be spelled out as with the powers they can exercise at will.
[24 May 22:12] <Ator_People> Time. Thank you Roman. Next question.
[24 May 22:12] <Ator_People> How will you, as delegate, convince the RA to pass constitutional and/or legal reform?
[24 May 22:12] <Ator_People> Roman, we'll start with you.
[24 May 22:13] <Romanoffia> I think through persuasive, rational and logical arguments, the RA can be persuaded to take a careful look at what needs to be done.
[24 May 22:13] <Romanoffia> I will also have an open ear as to what I will support and what I will not support.
[24 May 22:13] <Romanoffia> Mainly...
[24 May 22:14] <Romanoffia> I think a simplification of the Constitution, while permitting flexibility will appeal to the RA as a whole,
[24 May 22:14] <Romanoffia> As well as legal reform to comply with a simplified consitution.
[24 May 22:14] <Ator_People> Time. Thank you Roman. Elu?
[24 May 22:14] <Eluvatar> I think by far the more difficult part is actually writing the reforms; convincing the RA to support a reform which is properly constructed to reflect the people's will is easy.
[24 May 22:15] <Eluvatar> I suppose that means that the way I would convine the RA to pass constitutional reform is to ensure the reform is such that the RA would support it in the first place.
[24 May 22:16] <Eluvatar> As I stated in my manifesto, I believe it is essential that we move forward democratically; that the system of governance be established by the people's will.
[24 May 22:16] <Ator_People> Time. Thanks Elu. Next question. We'll start with Elu.
[24 May 22:16] <Ator_People> Which TNP delegate do you consider to be your greatest influence, and why?
[24 May 22:16] <Eluvatar> That's a very difficult question.
[24 May 22:17] <Ator_People> Take your time.
[24 May 22:17] <Eluvatar> I draw great positive inspiration from Great Bights Mum; she has often done a great job of seeking out the consensus and following it,
[24 May 22:17] <Eluvatar> of including all who can be included,
[24 May 22:17] --> Hileville joined the channel
[24 May 22:18] <Eluvatar> and yet possessing a backbone when needed.
[24 May 22:18] <-- kor left the channel
[24 May 22:18] --> korr joined the channel
[24 May 22:19] <Eluvatar> I was also impressed with how Tresville handled the responsibilities of the Delegacy as it is now.
[24 May 22:19] <Eluvatar> Even though I didn't always agree with his policies.
[24 May 22:19] <Ator_People> Thank you Elu. Roman?
[24 May 22:19] <Romanoffia> On the positive side, Great Bights Mum tops my list. She has a sense of humor and she is a very able administrator. As Elu notes, Treville along the same lines...
[24 May 22:20] <Romanoffia> Both had a sense of humor and a drive to get the job done.
[24 May 22:20] <Romanoffia> I particularly liked working with Tresville mainly because of his extremely active method of engaging the citizens and officials of the region...
[24 May 22:21] <Romanoffia> On the negative side (negative delegates that were influential)...
[24 May 22:21] <Romanoffia> UPS Rail and FrancoSpain...
[24 May 22:21] <Romanoffia> Mainly because they showed us exactly what delegates should not be...
[24 May 22:22] <Romanoffia> And gave us valuable lessons on how to combat rogues and usurpers.
[24 May 22:22] <Ator_People> Thanks Roman. Time. Next question will start with you.
[24 May 22:22] <Eluvatar> I didn't know Francos Spain was a TNP Delegate That said I do agree that we've had valuable negative examples as well. I personally learned with Lewis and Clark.
[24 May 22:22] <Eluvatar> (I'd like the rebuttal time please! D: )
[24 May 22:22] <Ator_People> Yes, Elu, please go ahead.
[24 May 22:22] <Ator_People> You have a minute or so.
[24 May 22:23] <Eluvatar> Historically speaking, the negative example of Great Bight is helpful as well,
[24 May 22:23] <Eluvatar> and the positive example of Thel D'Ran I respect as well.
[24 May 22:23] <Eluvatar> A great deal of what held TNP together even during the maelstrom of Pixiedance I suspect (I do not know as I was not present then) date to that period.
[24 May 22:23] <Eluvatar> *dates
[24 May 22:24] <Eluvatar> In terms of the role of Delegate under the old constitution,
[24 May 22:24] <Eluvatar> I think that Honeysheep, flemingovia, and Former English Colony (erastide) did wonderful jobs as well
[24 May 22:24] <Eluvatar> and that the way they maintained those necessary endorsements and contact with the region are definitely worth learning from.
[24 May 22:24] <Eluvatar> (I'm most familiar with erastide there)
[24 May 22:25] <Ator_People> Thanks Elu. Roman, a rebuttal?
[24 May 22:25] <Romanoffia> (asks for rebut time)
[24 May 22:25] <Ator_People> 1 minute or so.
[24 May 22:25] <Romanoffia> I should have added Thel to the list on the positive side...
[24 May 22:25] <Romanoffia> I know Thel beyond the context of nations states which brings up a point..
[24 May 22:26] <Romanoffia> We need to actually engage each other beyond the scope of the game...
[24 May 22:26] <Romanoffia> And in that way we get to know who we are really dealing with in terms of material for being Delegate (or anything else for that matter).
[24 May 22:27] <Ator_People> Time. Thanks guys for that dialogue! Next question will start with Roman.
[24 May 22:27] <Eluvatar> (If I may, I'd like to respond to that when Romanoffia's done.)
[24 May 22:27] <Eluvatar> ack <.<
[24 May 22:27] <Ator_People> Go ahead Elu.
[24 May 22:27] <Eluvatar> Briefly
[24 May 22:27] <Ator_People> It's a good topic to address.
[24 May 22:27] <Eluvatar> I don't think that we should require or focus too much on real life interactions
[24 May 22:27] <Eluvatar> those can help but they can also hurt,
[24 May 22:27] <Eluvatar> and some can be pushed away by it.
[24 May 22:28] <Eluvatar> I don't at all oppose it, don't get me wrong,
[24 May 22:28] <Eluvatar> but I think we should be very prudent with that kind of sharing.
[24 May 22:28] <Eluvatar> (done)
[24 May 22:28] <Romanoffia> 30 second quicky?
[24 May 22:28] <Ator_People> Go ahead.
[24 May 22:28] <Romanoffia> It does help but shouldn't really reflect on game play...
[24 May 22:29] <Romanoffia> But it does help to maintain civility if there is a personal element...
[24 May 22:29] <Romanoffia> Most of the people here and in the past...
[24 May 22:29] <Romanoffia> With which I have interacted, even negatively...
[24 May 22:29] <Romanoffia> I actually knew in RL in one capacity or another.
[24 May 22:30] <Ator_People> Alright, are we ready to move on?
[24 May 22:30] <Romanoffia> Yes.
[24 May 22:30] <Ator_People> Roman, this will start with you.
[24 May 22:30] <Ator_People> Having touched upon some points of TNP history, please share, briefly, your own history in NS and TNP. Our new voters, especially, might be interested in learning a little more about each of our candidates.
[24 May 22:30] <Ator_People> 2 minutes for this one.
[24 May 22:30] <Romanoffia> I've been around a long time in one nation or persona...
[24 May 22:31] <Romanoffia> Actually, I've been largely around since the game started.
[24 May 22:31] <Romanoffia> Some people consider me to be 'Old Guard' but that might be somewhat inaccurate.
[24 May 22:32] <Romanoffia> It's fairly inaccurate because regardless of the time I've been around, I am largely considered an 'outsider' because I don't play a 'power game' (that is, to obtain power as a main movive)...
[24 May 22:32] <Ator_People> 30 seconds...
[24 May 22:32] <Romanoffia> Motive, that is...
[24 May 22:33] <Romanoffia> Most people know me and know I tend to be fairly consistent in principles and consistent in my support of democratic ideals.
[24 May 22:33] <Romanoffia> (done)
[24 May 22:33] <Ator_People> Time. Elu?
[24 May 22:34] <Eluvatar> I've not been around in TNP quite as long as my colleague,
[24 May 22:34] <Eluvatar> but I've also been around a bit.
[24 May 22:34] <Eluvatar> I first got involved in TNP when my then-region of the Lexicon went to war with it.
[24 May 22:34] <Eluvatar> But I came to love TNP, and was assimilated by it <3
[24 May 22:35] <Eluvatar> I fought against Lewis and Clark, using my accumulated Influence and campaigning relentlessly among all the UN (and, when it changed, WA) nations of TNP to endorse Great Bights Mum (and myself) and unendorse Lewis and Clark to end his tyranny
[24 May 22:36] <Ator_People> Thanks Elu. Now for some fun questions to break things up a bit. One word answers please, you may answer in any order.
[24 May 22:36] <Eluvatar> ack
[24 May 22:36] <Eluvatar> did I run out of time?
[24 May 22:36] <Romanoffia> ;D
[24 May 22:36] <Ator_People> You may finish Elu. I thought you did, but go ahead.
[24 May 22:36] <Eluvatar> Under this pressure, Romanoffia was able to get Gates to withdraw and this was crucial
[24 May 22:37] <Eluvatar> leading to the end of the Crimson King and the restoration of a free TNP.
[24 May 22:37] <Romanoffia> :p
[24 May 22:37] <Romanoffia> ;D
[24 May 22:37] <Eluvatar> Working with GBM we let the Crimsonites join with us, and in the following election I ran for Delegate and won. Appointing a unity government, I led TNP to stand against attempts by the Empire to bully us
[24 May 22:38] <Eluvatar> and handed over power to my elected successor Tresville.
[24 May 22:38] <Eluvatar> Since then I've felt responsible to use the influence I'd accumulated to help TNP, watching against possible attempts to conquer it.
[24 May 22:38] <Ator_People> Thanks Elu, all set?
[24 May 22:38] <Eluvatar> I've not been here 100% of the time, unfortunately, but few of us have been.
[24 May 22:39] <Eluvatar> I am now.
[24 May 22:39] <Ator_People> Ok, great. So one word, fun questions. Answer in any order.
[24 May 22:39] <Ator_People> Cat or dog?
[24 May 22:39] <Romanoffia> Dog!
[24 May 22:39] <Eluvatar> uh, Cat!
[24 May 22:39] <Ator_People> Pepsi or Coke?
[24 May 22:39] <Eluvatar> No!
[24 May 22:39] <Romanoffia> Coke. And a smile!
[24 May 22:39] <Ator_People> Chocolate or vanilla?
[24 May 22:40] <Romanoffia> Cheese!
[24 May 22:40] <Eluvatar> vanilla :#
[24 May 22:40] <Ator_People> Ocean or mountains?
[24 May 22:40] <Romanoffia> Mountains
[24 May 22:40] <Eluvatar> Ocean!
[24 May 22:40] <Ator_People> Silver or gold?
[24 May 22:40] <Eluvatar> Silver!
[24 May 22:40] <Romanoffia> Gold!
[24 May 22:40] <Ator_People> Pasta or pizza?
[24 May 22:40] <Romanoffia> Pizza
[24 May 22:40] <Eluvatar> Pasta!
[24 May 22:40] <Eluvatar> lol
[24 May 22:40] <Ator_People> Money or fame?
[24 May 22:40] <Romanoffia> HAha!
[24 May 22:40] <Romanoffia> Money!
[24 May 22:40] <Eluvatar> Money
[24 May 22:41] <Ator_People> Dancing or singing?
[24 May 22:41] <Romanoffia> ;D
[24 May 22:41] <Romanoffia> Singing
[24 May 22:41] <Eluvatar> singing
[24 May 22:41] <Eluvatar> >_>
[24 May 22:41] <Ator_People> Alright, that was fun, haha. Now back to some serious questions.
[24 May 22:41] <Eluvatar> although one must respect the POWER OF DANCE
[24 May 22:41] <Romanoffia> And the power of Cheese!
[24 May 22:41] <Ator_People> I'm going to throw this one to Roman first. Which do you prefer: our current regional assembly model, or an elected legislature, or something else?
[24 May 22:41] <Romanoffia> Tough question.
[24 May 22:42] <Romanoffia> A number of schemes I can think of would work, but they are dependent upon participation...
[24 May 22:42] <Romanoffia> I'd like to see some experimentation with using the RMB (with a verification method)...
[24 May 22:43] <Romanoffia> To see if we can get a more representative sampling and possible voting scheme...
[24 May 22:43] <Romanoffia> That might involve those who don't participate on the forum as much as some of us.
[24 May 22:43] <Romanoffia> Either scheme...
[24 May 22:43] <Ator_People> Thanks. Elu?
[24 May 22:43] <Eluvatar> First on the subject of the POWER OF DANCE: http://bryankonietzko.tumblr.com/post/23674851350/i-performed-this-dance-for-video-reference-of
[24 May 22:43] <Romanoffia> Elected or participatory can work.
[24 May 22:44] <Romanoffia> LOL!
[24 May 22:44] <Eluvatar> I definitely think we need to involve more of the region's members,
[24 May 22:44] <Eluvatar> and we should allow for less forum-involved people.
[24 May 22:44] <Eluvatar> I absolutely would like to find some way to elect an elected council of some kind, with whatever responsibilities work best.
[24 May 22:45] <Eluvatar> I've thought a bit about RMB voting, and it can be done.
[24 May 22:45] <Eluvatar> I believe that we should experiment with it first before adopting it,
[24 May 22:45] <Eluvatar> but that the experiments should be meaningful.
[24 May 22:45] <Ator_People> Time. What do you think the role of in-game embassies should be in our region? Elu, we'll start with you.
[24 May 22:46] <Eluvatar> That is the kind of thing I would like to accomplish with things like my Council of Five.
[24 May 22:46] --> mcmasterdonia joined the channel
[24 May 22:46] <Eluvatar> I believe in-game embassies should be used to represent friendly relationships with regions,
[24 May 22:46] <Eluvatar> with an emphasis on our allies, such as we may have in the near future.
[24 May 22:46] <Eluvatar> I believe we should seek to rekindle relationships rather than to end them when possible.
[24 May 22:47] <Eluvatar> However, I expect any friend to treat us as an equal, at the very least.
[24 May 22:47] <Eluvatar> I would, as Delegate, rotate the visible segment of the list among our allies.
[24 May 22:47] <Ator_People> Time.
[24 May 22:48] <Ator_People> Roman?
[24 May 22:48] <Romanoffia> Embassies should be tools of good will and communication between regions, fostering cooperating and mutual interests. We also need continuity between Delegates' governments instead of allowing a Delegate to simply abrogate the existence of recognized embassies.
[24 May 22:49] <Romanoffia> We need to get as many embassies with other regions exchanged, and to actively engage those regions on their forums, as well as get them to engage us on our forums. If we can accomplish this, it benefits all of NationSates and makes for a more active environment. (done)
[24 May 22:49] <Ator_People> Thanks guys. Based on your answers, can I assume that you both disapprove of the recent cancellation of the 10000 Islands embassy?
[24 May 22:49] <Eluvatar> I think that it was, at the very least, inconsiderate.
[24 May 22:49] <Romanoffia> Oh, yeah.
[24 May 22:50] <Romanoffia> No point in it.
[24 May 22:50] <Eluvatar> And I mean that both as impolitic and as without the necessary consideration and deliberation.
[24 May 22:50] <Romanoffia> Indeed.
[24 May 22:50] <Ator_People> Now a question from McMasterdonia. What do you think about TNP offering protection to smaller regions? such as stargate for example. Should we expand upon this? Roman, you're up.
[24 May 22:51] <Romanoffia> I think offering protections to smaller regions who are of a like mind or are the victims of rogue delegates, etc.,,,
[24 May 22:51] <Romanoffia> is a good idea.
[24 May 22:51] <Romanoffia> we need to promote our ideals by promoting and protecting like-minded regions.
[24 May 22:52] <Romanoffia> In doing this, we increase our prestige and reputation as a region that walks the walk and talks the talk. (done)
[24 May 22:52] <Ator_People> Elu?
[24 May 22:52] <Eluvatar> I would as Delegate direct the Ministry of External Affairs to actively seek out regions who's values we share to protect, and assist the Minister in the search. I would like to see the NPA have good deeds to do in the service of our values on a regular basis. To that end I'd like to establish a streamlined standard path toward alliance, perhaps with sensibly organized stages as the consensus wills.
[24 May 22:52] <Eluvatar> I want to see the name of the North Pacific Army respected as a force for good.
[24 May 22:53] <Eluvatar> If we can also build on these relationships,
[24 May 22:53] <Eluvatar> to benefit TNP though some interregional activities,
[24 May 22:53] <Eluvatar> so much the better.
[24 May 22:54] <Ator_People> Alright, I'm going to wrap this up here. When voters consider you verses your opponent, what is the one greatest thing that sets you apart from the other? Elu, you're first.
[24 May 22:54] <Eluvatar> I believe that people see me as better possessing the qualities and abilities necessary for good leadership.
[24 May 22:55] <Ator_People> Thanks Elu. Roman?
[24 May 22:55] <Eluvatar> sorry not quit done
[24 May 22:55] <Romanoffia> I'm a good administrator with a sense of fairness who likes to engage both sides in a conflict.
[24 May 22:55] <Romanoffia> OK..
[24 May 22:56] <Eluvatar> I have been very pleased to learn how well my integrity, intelligence, and equinanimity are respected, and I hope to live up to those expectations.
[24 May 22:56] <Eluvatar> Now done, sorry
[24 May 22:56] <Ator_People> Sorry about that. Go ahead, Roman.
[24 May 22:56] <Eluvatar> (I blanked on "equinanimity")
[24 May 22:57] <Eluvatar> (and it should have been equanimity after all....)
[24 May 22:57] <Romanoffia> I'm a good administrator with a sense of fairness who likes to engage both sides in a conflict. I like to listen to and consider as many points of view as can be presented. I am also not afraid to act, but act on the advise of those who may know more about a specific situation than I do.
[24 May 22:57] <Romanoffia> I have the belief that,.,
[24 May 22:57] <Romanoffia> One should engage in cooperative efforts as opposed to...
[24 May 22:58] <Romanoffia> adversarial efforts unless adversarial approaches bring a more unified result...
[24 May 22:58] <Romanoffia> by showing all sides of a situation. (done)
[24 May 22:59] <Ator_People> Alright, guys, thank you for a great debate!
[24 May 22:59] <Eluvatar> Thank you Ator_People for moderating
[24 May 22:59] <Romanoffia> Many thanks to Elu and all who attended!
[24 May 22:59] <Ator_People> Good night everyone.
[24 May 22:59] <Eluvatar> And thank you to all who submitted questions

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