Appeal of Warning by Flemingovia

Govindia

Govindia

TNPer
I would like to appeal the action placed on me by Administrator Flemingovia.

He had placed a 20% warn level on me and put me under five hour moderator review after I questioned his request over IRC to remove a swear word.

I find this to be inappropriate and completely excessive. Other people have swore on the forum when addressing others, including Flem himself to other people, and did not even receive a verbal warning. I did not receive a verbal warning on the forum before the action was done.

I feel that flemingovia acted in a biased and overreactionary manner that was not proportionate to whatever I have done. I have not seen others warned for swearing and there is no reason I should not have either.

I request that this mark be struck from my record, my warn level reduced back to 0, and an apology from flemingovia for his excessive punishment.
 
All moderation is objective, as I pointed out on the thread where I gave the warning. What is offensive to one may not be to all. That situation will continue until we have a list of approved and forbidden words. That is why I gave govindia the chance to temper his language before I took action. This could easily have been done without removing the force from the argument.

Since this was a subjective judgement govindia feels that it was excessive. I would like to reassure him that it was not biased. If I had noticed any other forum member calling someone an asshole, and they had refused to temper their bad language, my action would have been the same.
 
flemingovia:
All moderation is objective, as I pointed out on the thread where I gave the warning. What is offensive to one may not be to all. That situation will continue until we have a list of approved and forbidden words. That is why I gave govindia the chance to temper his language before I took action. This could easily have been done without removing the force from the argument.

Since this was a subjective judgement govindia feels that it was excessive. I would like to reassure him that it was not biased. If I had noticed any other forum member calling someone an asshole, and they had refused to temper their bad language, my action would have been the same.
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It was excessive. Go and search and see when someone said "arse", or "F**k" etc. and see when they were tempered. They were not. This is a clear cut case of bias and excessive punishment. Other people had engaged in trolling to me earlier on this forum, a violation of Forum rules and no one did anything.

I request this be reviewed and my requests to resolve this above met in a quick and reasonasble manner. Thank you.
 
Mmm. This is where the subjective bit comes in. You were not moderated for saying either of those words. You were moderated for calling another person an arsehole.
 
flemingovia:
Mmm. This is where the subjective bit comes in. You were not moderated for saying either of those words. You were moderated for calling another person an arsehole.
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Normally a person would get warned before their warn level was raised. That never happened, only requesting to edit their language.

Additionally, I have never seen you or anyone else tell people to watch their language or edit it so it is a inappropriate double standard.
 
Govindia:
flemingovia:
Mmm. This is where the subjective bit comes in. You were not moderated for saying either of those words. You were moderated for calling another person an arsehole.
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Normally a person would get warned before their warn level was raised. That never happened, only requesting to edit their language.

Additionally, I have never seen you or anyone else tell people to watch their language or edit it so it is a inappropriate double standard.
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errr... actually, a warn level IS a warning. That is why it is called a "warn" level.

Plus, the reason why you have never seen me tell people to watch their language is that I tend to do it quietly by pm or on irc... As I did with you. The difference is that other people when asked to edit their language have done so.
 
flemingovia:
Govindia:
flemingovia:
Mmm. This is where the subjective bit comes in. You were not moderated for saying either of those words. You were moderated for calling another person an arsehole.
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Normally a person would get warned before their warn level was raised. That never happened, only requesting to edit their language.

Additionally, I have never seen you or anyone else tell people to watch their language or edit it so it is a inappropriate double standard.
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errr... actually, a warn level IS a warning. That is why it is called a "warn" level.

Plus, the reason why you have never seen me tell people to watch their language is that I tend to do it quietly by pm or on irc... As I did with you. The difference is that other people when asked to edit their language have done so.
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Show me.

Either way, this argument between us is going nowhere. We shall let the other admins and mods decide.
 
no. Such things are discreet and private. As would your situation have been if you had simply moderated your language.

Over to the admin/mod team.
 
I'm going to have to agree with Flem. Forum members need to comply with edit requests or suffer the consequences.

May I suggest that in the future, more creative insults and name-calling could be utilized in lieu of the tired, old expletives.
 
Great Bights Mum:
I'm going to have to agree with Flem. Forum members need to comply with edit requests or suffer the consequences.

May I suggest that in the future, more creative insults and name-calling could be utilized in lieu of the tired, old expletives.
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FOR REFERENCE
 
Great Bights Mum:
I'm going to have to agree with Flem. Forum members need to comply with edit requests or suffer the consequences.

May I suggest that in the future, more creative insults and name-calling could be utilized in lieu of the tired, old expletives.
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It was excessive. He did not give me a verbal warning over the forum, which is the custom, and the second offence after said verbal warning would warrant a raise of the warning level.

He acted overbearingly and in excess. My warn level should be lowered and he still owes me an apology for his mistreatment of me.
 
Govindia:
Great Bights Mum:
I'm going to have to agree with Flem. Forum members need to comply with edit requests or suffer the consequences.

May I suggest that in the future, more creative insults and name-calling could be utilized in lieu of the tired, old expletives.
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It was excessive. He did not give me a verbal warning over the forum, which is the custom, and the second offence after said verbal warning would warrant a raise of the warning level.

He acted overbearingly and in excess. My warn level should be lowered and he still owes me an apology for his mistreatment of me.
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Just out of curiosity, you twice raised Grimalkin's warn level on Sep 21 2011, 09:42 PM and Sep 20 2011, 11:21 AM, once for simply using the word "idiot" and once for calling you a pissant.

Can you point me to the "verbal warnings you gave him over the forum, which is the custom" before raising his warn level.

Because I am pretty sure that you did not do such a thing in that case. And if you are going to cite something as a custom, you had better make sure it is a custom you followed.
 
flemingovia:
Govindia:
Great Bights Mum:
I'm going to have to agree with Flem. Forum members need to comply with edit requests or suffer the consequences.

May I suggest that in the future, more creative insults and name-calling could be utilized in lieu of the tired, old expletives.
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It was excessive. He did not give me a verbal warning over the forum, which is the custom, and the second offence after said verbal warning would warrant a raise of the warning level.

He acted overbearingly and in excess. My warn level should be lowered and he still owes me an apology for his mistreatment of me.
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Just out of curiosity, you twice raised Grimalkin's warn level on Sep 21 2011, 09:42 PM and Sep 20 2011, 11:21 AM, once for simply using the word "idiot" and once for calling you a pissant.

Can you point me to the "verbal warnings you gave him over the forum, which is the custom" before raising his warn level.

Because I am pretty sure that you did not do such a thing in that case. And if you are going to cite something as a custom, you had better make sure it is a custom you followed.
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Look in the judicial threads where I verbally DID warn him to knock it off. Also see my explanation in the thread in this forum.
 
There's one point I am going to make because it underscores what we do in moderation of forum post and needs to be remembered always.

This forum is comprised of people who live in different places, cultures, and standards concerning language and what is deemed appropriate even in name calling. What is an insult beyond the terms of the Zetaboard TOS and TOU in one place may not be deemed somewhere else as an insult. Our primary obligation is to enforce the TOS and TOU and the additional forum rules we have adopted.

There have been instances in the past where moderation action was taken against an individual forum user who repeatedly used unacceptable language and insults against other users. So there is precedent here. But, I'm of the opinion that for now, all that was required was an unofficial caution to Govindia over his word choices. (A caution is not a warning under this forum's administration moderation warning policy.)

A repeated need to caution word usage (multiple occasions, not merely a second or even a third) would merit a first warning over the issue in such circumstances. I think a caution is all that was required here. The appropriate action if a edit was not forthcoming is to edit the post and for the moderator to note the edit by use of the "edited by" notation in editing the post.

There's some discussion above over asserted improper use of the warn system by Gov, that's a matter for a different thread (with links please) and I'll respond to it if someone including the recipient of the warnings) asks for it to be reviewed.

We have restricted mod powers due to abuse of the warn system in the past, and if it has been abused, then restrictions can be imposed as a discipline for any abuse. But I want to keep that as an independent issue from this issue, and so if there's a separate request made in the Moderation Discussion area (where this thread belongs, and I'll be moving it there momentarily), we can address it then.

As to this matter, the warning should be reduced to a caution, and Govindia is cautioned that a repeated pattern of such use of language could result in a warning.
 
As Root admin i defer to your right to overrule me and Great Bight's Mum.

However, I would point out that you did exactly the same thing the last time that Govindia was warned by Eluvatar on Oct 18 2011, 06:38 PM. On that occasion Govindia was warned for calling Eluvatar a dick. He has also called Wham a Dick, but on that occasion he was not warned.

There is also such a thing as admin solidarity and backing one another up in public so that the team retains respect - but that is a discussion for another time and another place.
 
Shut the f*** up blue wolf. I am the minister of cheese :winner: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :fish:
Edit: changed wording due to moderators request.

It's really that simple.
 
Flem, what I have is patience. It has nothing to do with this being Govindia, but more a belief that a soft touch is better than a hard glove, especially if you are seeking to modify posting behavior.

And mcmasterdonia, STFU (the acronym) would be just as effective without some people being offended. :ph34r:
 
So we are allowed to say STFU? Even though saying shut the f**** up, is much more forceful, and gets my point across better. I will consider what you say.
 
Grosseschnauzer:
Flem, what I have is patience. It has nothing to do with this being Govindia, but more a belief that a soft touch is better than a hard glove, especially if you are seeking to modify posting behavior.

And mcmasterdonia, STFU (the acronym) would be just as effective without some people being offended. :ph34r:
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Except that he's been here for...how long now? and has not modified his posting behavior at all, soft touch or hard glove. What you are doing, Grosse, isn't applying a soft touch but coddling a child who runs to his mother whenever he gets in trouble because he knows that she (or in this case, you) will go easy on him. Enough is enough. The soft touch isn't working, so it's time to bring out the hard glove.
 
The other demand that Govindia made was for a public apology from me. In the light of Grossescnauzer's post above it is obvious that I made the wrong call in seeking to moderate Govindia's language, therefore an apology is in order:

Govindia, I complely, unreservedly totally and utterly apologise to you for daring to warn you concerning your language. I should have realised who I was talking to and moderated my response accordingly. I am sorry that I caused you offense and prompted this appeal. I am sorry that I am such a bad administrator, and I promise to try harder in the future.

Govindia, I know that you have been cruelly, cruelly wronged. I hope that you will find a small corner in your injured heart to forgive me.
 
I mean, look at the warnings grimalkin has been given. They are pathetic. What he said was far less insulting than what gov said.
 
There are two admin besides me and Flem here, both of whom are now active, and who haven't expressed an opinion on this. If any of you think there's is a consistent pattern of actual violations of the TOS and TOU, then compile all of them into a single thread for everyone to see and comment on the overall pattern. Almost all of the posts are visible in the archives, and I seriously doubt those that aren't involve Govindia to begin with.

And by this I do mean everything with links to the original posts.
All that was raised was the one post. I feel a sense of needing to be cautious because banning is an extremely serious action and because a lot of the rhetoric seems to have a "bash Govindia at all costs" overtones, in which certain people get into an extended back-and-forth trying to have the last word at all costs (both sides, not just one) when just walking away from it would have been more prudent.

It's also pretty clear that there are some who want Govindia banned from this forum, no matter what, but don't want to openly admit it. (You know who you are.) I have to counterbalance that to make sure any decision is fair; something I think some of you are deliberately ignoring. What I can't ignore is the pettiness of it on both sides. (We've gone through this before with other users, but I've not been able to track down the name because the warning logs don't go past a year back, and this was back 5 or 6 years ago; and IIRC, GBM was involved in the discussion about that user. I'm not going to post the name I think it was because I can't verify it.)

So if you think you have a real case, make it. Put the documentation together. If you can't make it, drop it.
 
mcmasterdonia:
I mean, look at the warnings grimalkin has been given. They are pathetic. What he said was far less insulting than what gov said.
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I haven't seen those; and if warnings were issued without following posted board policy on the warning procedure (it's pinned in this area of the forums), then they should be rescinded.

And again, if the warn power was abused, pull the examples together into a thread and we'll discuss it. A vague statement isn't enough.
 
The only reason this discussion was moved to this thread was because at least one relevant user (Govindia) is involved, and he deserves to have access to this discussion since he currently does not have a mask with access to the Moderation HQ area.
 
Grosseschnauzer:
mcmasterdonia:
I mean, look at the warnings grimalkin has been given. They are pathetic. What he said was far less insulting than what gov said.
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I haven't seen those; and if warnings were issued without following posted board policy on the warning procedure (it's pinned in this area of the forums), then they should be rescinded.

And again, if the warn power was abused, pull the examples together into a thread and we'll discuss it. A vague statement isn't enough.
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You have actually, as you were the one who rescinded them.

But no where in this thread did anyone mention the word "ban" except for you, Grosse. The general consensus is that you are not being fair, in that you are giving him preferential treatment despite a growing pattern. His warn (and I stress warn because no one mentioned ban) was extremely reasonably, and instead of upholding it, you further show that you'll just give Gov a slap on the wrist any time he comes and bitches to you about some punishment that was doled out to him because of some "bias." When is enough going to be enough, Grosse? I further challenge you, Grosse, to prove that flemingovia in fact acted in a biased manner towards Gov when he applied the warn level. And that means links and everything. I want a well documented report.
 
He's not going to be able to because Grosseschnauzer isn't acting upon rational, he's acting upon favoritism. I'm sure he'll make up some flimsy excuse using false logic and misdirection, however. He's gotten fairly good at doing that.
 
There does seem to be a favoritism problem here. It is either favoritism, or Gross your desire to be fair because so many people want poor Gov banned, is to go to the other extreme, and rescind any, and all warns Gov may get.

Gov calls me a dick, no big deal, I guess I had that coming. Calls Elu a dick, gets a warn, well seemed fair, after all it was twice he did that, and after a verbal warn. Nope, I guess Elu had it coming as well. Warning recinded.

Gov then calls BW an asshole. gets a warn, but hey, it's blue wolf right? He definatly had it coming! Warning recinded.

Lesson learned from all this. We are all either dicks, and assholes, and deserve to be reminded of such, or Gov has been granted a do whatever you want to, and get away with it card.

Reality of it is this. The admin team on this board is no team. Not when every action they take is likely to result in the root admin burying a knife in their back, and publicly reversing their decisions, not based on fact, but who is involved. Unprofesional as it gets. If you have an issue with the other admins, it should be dealt with privately, and it should be the admin who gave the warning's job to recind said warning if it was wrong. It's called putting on a united front. Right now, their is an obvious problem in the admin ranks, and it's not Elu, or Flem causing it.
 
Not that anyone cares what I think on this but IMO the warning was justified. I am pretty sure Gov would have reported it if someone else had said it.
 
Not to mention that Gov would have certainly warned anyone who directly called him an asshole.

After all, he warned Grimalkin for saying, and I quote, "Idiots".
 
Folks I understand the strength of feeling over this, but I feel the point has probably been made by now. Grosse has made his decision and the warning has been overruled. Perhaps it is time to move on?
 
Whamabama:
We are all either dicks, and assholes...
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Welcome to the internet.

Folks I understand the strength of feeling over this, but I feel the point has probably been made by now. Grosse has made his decision and the warning has been overruled. Perhaps it is time to move on?
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:clap:
 
Govindia, it is eating me up. I poured out my heart to you and bared my soul to you. I begged for forgiveness, govindia, I crawled on the floor to you and you have just ignored me. It is as if I am not there.

I can't eat. I can't sleep. My wife complains that i am neglecting her .... Physically. I cannot stand it that you think so little of me that you cannot even accept my apology.

Govindia, it is tearing me apart. I need to know that you forgive me and that we can go back to how it was ... Before...

Oh god, govindia. I cannot type any more. My tears are blurring the screen...

Call me

Soon
 
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