Informal Vote: RA Activity/Quorum Rules

[Romanoffia]

OK, given the complexity of all the schemes involved concerning RA Activity Clauses, Quorum Rules, and Issues with RA Member Masking, I've come up with a simple solution to, well, simplify the whole mess.

1.) Abolish the Quorum Rules. Legislation is passed by a simple majority of those RA members who cast a vote. That's 50%+1 vote in the affirmative for any legislation to pass. Abstentions are counted as 'votes not in the affirmative' and are lumped in with 'No' votes.

Those choosing not to vote at all are not counted at all. So, if 10 people vote, legislation is passed with 6 votes in the affirmative. If 100 RA members vote, then legislation passes with 51 votes. Just a simple majority. If you choose not to vote on any given item, oh, well, qui tacet consentire videtur and you don't count at all in that vote. No reason to let the inactivity of some put the damper on those who actually are responsible enough to perform their duties as an RA member.

This alone would prevent the RA and government from 'freezing up' if some anally-retentive condition of the convoluted rules aren't met.

2.) Abolish all activity requirements for the RA. Once and RA member, always an RA member as long as you meet the citizenship requirements to be in the RA.

This saves the Admins a lot of aggravation in keeping track of who has been a bad or good little boy or girl. Every month or so, find the people who have been inactive for the previous month and boot them from the RA or not as desired.

Simple enough plan. Very effective. No need to consult a Qui-Ja Board and a Tom Mix Decoder Ring to figure out how to apply it. Could be condensed down to fewer that 50 words.

 

[Eluvatar]

Abstentions are counted as 'votes not in the affirmative' and are lumped in with 'No' votes.

No.

 

[mcmasterdonia]

I concur with eluvatar on that point.

 

[Cove]

Abstentions are counted as 'votes not in the affirmative' and are lumped in with 'No' votes.

Definitely not, abstain suggest indifference and is in no way a vote against.

 

[Felasia]

Nope, I don't agree with this.

 

[Grosseschnauzer]

The quorum rule is a protection against inactivity in that it prevents major action by a small group when many are away, i.e. a putsch or coup d'etat,

The R.A. tried abolishing quorum with the current constitution, and then had to amend the Constitution to bring it back. So it makes no sense to re-learn a lesson already learned.

As to absentions, it is pretty clear that the overwhelming consensus is that absentions not count positively or negatively in determining votes.

The real issue is whether to have an overall activity requirement (or not), or to have a missed votes rule (or not) and the exact details for either or both.

 

[rufusexc]

No

 

[Romanoffia]

I knew it. Just to simple for such a society that loves convolutions and complexities as an end unto themselves.


The reason I say count abstentions as votes not in the affirmative is because they aren't votes in the affirmative, but neither are they votes in the negative. But they should be counted as votes cast.

Gross:

The quorum rule is a protection against inactivity in that it prevents major action by a small group when many are away, i.e. a putsch or coup d'etat,

And thus take that possibility away from the exclusive domain of the SC? ;D

Point being, if someone doesn't participate, it shouldn't throw a monkey wrench into the operation of the government.

And, besides, inactivity under the present Constitution would necessarily lead to a putsch or coup d'etat precisely because there aren't enough active members in the RA to put a stop to something like that as it now stands.

The whole point here is that the region and government are being crushed to death under the weight of a Constitution that is so arcane and convoluted that it is the very cause of its own ineffectiveness in the face of inactivity.

It seems to me that the real problem in TNP is that anything that indicates change, indicates a change in the status quo and thus indicates a change in the long-standing 'power elite', which, of course, doesn't want their elite and exclusive club disrupted.

 

[Eluvatar]

What you're saying, Romanoffia, is neither true nor original.

 

[Romanoffia]

What you're saying, Romanoffia, is neither true nor original.

Please detail exactly what points are neither true nor original. Original, possibly not, but true, nonetheless.

All I see is the very same people trying to hold onto power in perpetuity who, IMHO, fear any real increase in the number of nations actively participating because such and increase upsets the status quo.

And it's all rooted in an all-permeating paranoia by the perpetual power elite that is unhealthy to say the least.

All I see so far is a convoluted Constitution and Legal system that is designed to benefit the few at the expense of the many by strangling meaningful participation by the implementation of 'activity' rules that have accomplished nothing more than to discourage participation and actively and systematically removes RA members that might not go along with the status quo.

Hence, the current situation is stagnation. The North Pacific government is becoming something akin to a stone statue that only slowly erodes because it cannot change, or rather, is unwilling to change for the better.

And mostly it is due to the unmitigated fact that the whole system we have in place is designed to benefit a few nations and exclude any nations that don't 'play ball' with the power elite and bow down like good little sheeple and toadies.

It was interesting to see a number of people try to throw Blue Wolf, and pardon this turn of phrase, to the wolves and then suddenly reverse course when the laws and constitution couldn't be interpreted to obtain that end.

And it all comes down to governmental structures like the Security Council acting as an autonomous gate-keeper that controls who gets to play the good ol' boy game and who doesn't.

And as a result of such garbage like activity clauses that squelch participation, maintain a power elite and prevent legitimate movements towards a better and more representative democracy that gives everyone a chance to participate and replaces it with an enforced popularity contest in which the contestants that can bend over backwards the farthest and kiss the right behinds are allowed to worship at the alter of a Byzantine Constitution with way to many rules and posteriors to osculate.

TNP has indeed become a Farceocracy without that joke Constitution ever passing.

 

[Earth]

I liked this until what Eluvatar pointed out, really. :/

 

[mcmasterdonia]

with Earth.

 

[Eluvatar]

All I see is the very same people trying to hold onto power in perpetuity who, IMHO, fear any real increase in the number of nations actively participating because such and increase upsets the status quo.

You have presented no evidence of this whatsoever.

And it's all rooted in an all-permeating paranoia by the perpetual power elite that is unhealthy to say the least.

Paranoia? There is sometimes. Power elite? I see no evidence of any class of persons forming a power elite.

All I see so far is a convoluted Constitution and Legal system that is designed to benefit the few at the expense of the many by strangling meaningful participation by the implementation of 'activity' rules that have accomplished nothing more than to discourage participation and actively and systematically removes RA members that might not go along with the status quo.

How do the activity rules: A) benefit the few at the expense of the many, B) discriminate in favor of removing "dissident" RA members as you appear to suggest??

Hence, the current situation is stagnation. The North Pacific government is becoming something akin to a stone statue that only slowly erodes because it cannot change, or rather, is unwilling to change for the better.

It is? I think the last few months have seen an opposite trend, if anything.

And mostly it is due to the unmitigated fact that the whole system we have in place is designed to benefit a few nations and exclude any nations that don't 'play ball' with the power elite and bow down like good little sheeple and toadies.

No, it really isn't. It really, really isn't.

It was interesting to see a number of people try to throw Blue Wolf, and pardon this turn of phrase, to the wolves and then suddenly reverse course when the laws and constitution couldn't be interpreted to obtain that end.

And it all comes down to governmental structures like the Security Council acting as an autonomous gate-keeper that controls who gets to play the good ol' boy game and who doesn't.

You're still on about not having been let into the Security Council? A majority of the Regional Assembly agreed with the Security Council. And in what way is the Security Council a "good ol' boy game??" Name one power the Security Council has toward any other body outside of the order of succession beyond the Vice Delegate (a genuine emergency situation of any could be imagined).

And as a result of such garbage like activity clauses that squelch participation, maintain a power elite and prevent legitimate movements towards a better and more representative democracy that gives everyone a chance to participate and replaces it with an enforced popularity contest in which the contestants that can bend over backwards the farthest and kiss the right behinds are allowed to worship at the alter of a Byzantine Constitution with way to many rules and posteriors to osculate.

The activity clause isn't even part of the constitution. It's part of the legal code, and there are a number of proposals working to repair the unwieldiness of it. I don't think there's a single person who's argued for keeping that system as it is in place. You're making a strawman argument, Romanoffia.

Also, again, I don't think the activity clause at all maintain a power elite.

And who's favor exactly are people expected to seek in your bizarro TNP? And how does it help them advance??

TNP has indeed become a Farceocracy without that joke Constitution ever passing.

Compare the current constitution to the previous.

 

[Romanoffia]

Oh, poo. You are just pointing out the party line of the power elite and don't seem to understand what I am driving at.

Is anyone listening?

Let me hit you again on this matter.

No. 1) -

The "Power Elite". I see the very same nations for the most part just holding onto governmental power and excluding anyone they consider an 'outsider' despite the fact that some of those excluded nations have been around a lot longer than the majority of the SC.

For instance, Gross suggested to me that I apply to the SC. I've been around in NS a lot longer than 99% of the people here. In fact, if one is to include my previous two NS nations, a lot longer than 99.44% of the nations now in TNP. In fact, my first nation was here within a month of the beginning of NationStates.

I have occupied any number of government positions ranging from court judge to commander of the Army of The North Pacific, to Minister of Communications, to Speaker of the RA, to moving force and primary asset behind the NPIA and much, much more.

I have dedicated my entire NS existence to preserving a Democratic region, I have sacrificed, I have never engaged in the 'power game'. I have served this region unfailingly, fought all invaders, raiders, rogues, etc. I personally convinced Gates to remove Gatesville forces from this region and thus to remove their support from a rogue Delegate and restore Democratic rule to TNP.

Yet, because I am considered an "outsider" (as Gross put it) by the power elite, I somehow have been portrayed as a 'security threat' to the region by the SC?

Sounds like a few power hungry power mongers clinging desperately to power.

And, you know what? I'm getting a little tired of power mongers who exist for the sake of power for power's sake running this region into the ground. Anyone who tries to make a difference is squelched by SC pronouncements or by idiotic 'activity' rules designed to eliminate opposition to the status quo.

No. 2) "Paranoia"

We've got Gross commenting about Putsches and Coups and such if strict constraints on RA membership activity aren't enforced. Give me a break.

What the paranoia here is that the precious Constitution which has become an end unto itself in certain regards might be changed and disrupt the status quo and long-standing power elite. The NS World has changed and The North Pacific must change to meet the new challenges we are faced with (mainly apathy and a religious worship of a vegetable Constitution) or TNP will remain a third-rate backwater in the Feeder Region world.

Some of you people are so God damned paranoid that anyone who questions the status quo is pronounced a 'Security Threat' by the SC. Well let me tell you something: the whole concept of the SC was mine from at least five years ago but I thought it was a bad idea because it might become a 'shadow government' which, IMHO, it has become. The proof of this is that I have been branded by the SC as a "Security Threat" by the SC in hopes that it will squelch change and maintain the power elite.

Let me enlighten you. It is well known that I intend to run for Delegate in the upcoming elections (that is unless you can figure out how to exclude me from those election, which I have no doubt that some of you will try to do). I may not stand a snowball's chance in Hell of winning the Delegacy, but, by God, I will try.

Why? Because The North Pacific needs a new beginning. It needs a new leader that will listen to the citizens and residents of this region as individuals without respect to how 'influential' they are or whether or not they are part of some power elite. I intend to run a campaign for Delegate like you have never seen before, and, if elected, I will conduct a Delagacy that will go down in NS history as the most progressive, moral, ethical Delegacy in TNP history.

No. 3)

A System That Promotes The Interests of The Few Over The Many

Have you been listening to my statements about a 'Power Elite"? Wake up and smell the Kafka.

No. 4)

Stagnation -

This region was dead. It is still dead. The government seeks to eliminate RA members from participating by the implementation of arcane activity rules. It has become an obscenity as far a Democracy is concerned.

I said get off your collective arses and work to get activity and participation and got pronounced by the SC as a 'Security Threat' for promoting activity and participation. Apparently true participation and activity by new blood is a security threat to the SC and the Power Elite it represents.

The biggest security threat to TNP is a Power Elite that seeks to hold onto power for power's sake.

No. 5) Where was I? Oh, Blue Wolf

It seems to me that a movement was afoot to remove the elected delegate because of an alleged 'unaccounted for and unannounced absence". Then I recall an attempt to remove Blue Wolf by claiming loss of RA membership produced loss of the position of Delegate.

Then I recall a vote to remove the Delegate that failed. Then I recall a second vote designed to null and void the first vote that also failed. Then I recall it backfiring when the Constitution never required the Delegate to be a member of the RA. Then I recall the SC toadying up to preserve their alleged integrity as a 'protector' of the region. Then I recall wanting to puke at the hypocrisy of it all.

In all honesty, I think BW has done a fine job as Delegate with just a few justifiable disregards of arcane rules that have the effect of causing nothing to happen. The irony is that Blue Wolf was stifled as a Delegate because Blue Wolf represented 'raiders' which represented a threat to the status quo and the Power Elite which seeks to retain power and ultimate control with total disregard to the will of and exclusion of those who wish to actively participate.

This must change.

No. 6) Good old boy network

See all of the above. See what the Power Elite doesn't want people to find out about. See what must be changed.

No. 7) The Activity Clause

See all of the above again.

I don't think you people have a frigging clue as to what you are doing or the consequences of what you have done.

You've set up a system that is so whacky and convoluted that it takes a psychopath with OCD to even remotely comprehend. That goes for the Constitution and the Legal Code, in toto.

Then those rules are used to bash people over the head and hold them up to ridicule and defamation of character.

Here we have JAL's trial continuing on like a perpetual saga that makes Beowulf in the original texts look like casual reading. What happened to trial by jury? For that matter, what happened to trials at all? If the wheels of justice grind slowly but finely, in TNP they don't grind at all. Dismiss the frigging case or is our TNP tradition of Monty-Python-Esque BS become so embedded as to become religion?

No. 8) The Farce-ocracy

This government is became farcical a long time ago. At first it was amusing, then annoying and then downright stupid and convoluted. The Byzantine Empire comes to mind if one is history minded. Actually, the Ottoman Empire comes to mind - TNP has become the 'Sick Old Man' of NationStates just like the Ottoman Empire had become the Sick Old Man of Europe. The only thing that will change it is reform or a charge at Beersheba. Personally, I am working for reform.

So be forewarned, this is why I am running for Delegate in this upcoming election cycle.

I intend to bring this region out of it's apathy and lethargy, clean up the bureaucratic constipation, lead by example not by sucking up to the Power Elite, and by listening to those who are responsible enough to realize that Democracy isn't a spectator sport and making The North Pacific the premier region.

And if that upsets the status quo and pisses off the Power Elite, they can just take it all to the bank and cash in.

Win, place or show, I intend to keep stirring the flies off the dung heap until The North Pacific is #1 again.



Is anyone listening?

 

[Namyeknom]

Yet, because I am considered an "outsider" (as Gross put it) by the power elite, I somehow have been portrayed as a 'security threat' to the region by the SC?

And the RA don't forget. The majority of them think you're a security threat as well.

The "Power Elite". I see the very same nations for the most part just holding onto governmental power and excluding anyone they consider an 'outsider' despite the fact that some of those excluded nations have been around a lot longer than the majority of the SC.

Care to name who these excluded nations are?

Then I recall a vote to remove the Delegate that failed. Then I recall a second vote designed to null and void the first vote that also failed. Then I recall it backfiring when the Constitution never required the Delegate to be a member of the RA. Then I recall the SC toadying up to preserve their alleged integrity as a 'protector' of the region. Then I recall wanting to puke at the hypocrisy of it all.

In all honesty, I think BW has done a fine job as Delegate...

Strange, I recall you voting for BW removal. Could I borrow your hypocrisy sick bag when you're done?

 

[Romanoffia]

You're such a silly goose.

And you must be joking.

About half of the RA in the past week under the so-called 'activity' clauses. And we shall see come election time.

Now *that's* what I call a threat to regional security and Democracy.

And as for those who are the Power Elite and gate-keepers? The Security Council.

It's all very Orwellian. Anyone who doesn't toady up and bend over backwards to suck up to the few nations who have controlled this region for a long time and thwarted any efforts at meaningful change (or any change at all) is declared a 'Security Threat'. So much for Democracy.

Anyone who stands up to point out what has gone dreadfully wrong with the reason is automatically bashed by a handful of people. You can't continue a policy that holds people down and squelched free speech by bashing anyone who challenges the status quo. Eventually, the few nations that perpetually rule the region will get voted out and they will eventually try to maintain their power by preventing the very existence of any dissent or calls for progress and improvement. It happens every time.

Democracy means giving people a chance, not herding them like cattle and making sure they support the same old power elite and declaring any and all who come along that challenges the status quo a 'Security Threat'.

And what a very clever move - using arcane rules to purge the RA just before regular elections.

And that's a security threat because it's a threat to Democracy and Freedom.

People eventually see what is going on. And what then? Are these arcane 'activity' rules used to selectively remove anyone that comes to realize that Elitism and not Democracy has become the new order of The North Pacific?

The current policies and structure are driving good people away by discouraging activity and participation because such activity and participation might upset the status quo and Power Elite.

And I stand by that assessment.

I may be a jackass, but at least I have a sense of humor and throw good parties.

 

[Namyeknom]

I may be a jackass, but at least I have a sense of humor and throw good parties.

Campaign slogan if ever I heard one.

TNP - The constitution is horrible, but we've got enough rum to make you forget... your own name.