Historical Discussion

[Eluvatar]

Having obtained permission, I post this potentially enlightening telling of the story of NationStates in general and TNP in particular.

Spoiler: Permissions

Biyah - yes
Blue_Wolf - yes
Durkadurkiranistan - yes
Dyr - yes
Elindra - yes
Eluvatar - yes
Goobergunch - yes
Gulliver - yes
Hax|away / Anur-Sanur - yes
Kurosaki - yes
Limi - yes
Naivetry - yes
Unibot - yes
harmoneia - yes
r3n - yes

Spoiler: Log part one

[18 Sep 23:55] <Dyr> lol...if you get your NS history lesson from this group..dont want to know how that'll turn out
[18 Sep 23:55] <Goobergunch> Hey, you'll definitely learn a lot
[18 Sep 23:55] * Kurosaki is a known psychopath on at least two other games.
[18 Sep 23:56] <Eluvatar> I could tell Kurosaki volumes on the history of TNP and related regions
[18 Sep 23:56] <Eluvatar> TNP = The North Pacific
[18 Sep 23:56] * Kurosaki seeks to learn everything.
[18 Sep 23:56] <Kurosaki> *Period.*
[18 Sep 23:57] <Dyr> Hey, not doubting the knowledge here..just that he's not going to recogize the jokes..and will walk away really confused
[18 Sep 23:57] <Goobergunch> In the beginning Max Barry created the UN and the forums. Now the UN was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the proposal list, and the Spirit of Max was hovering over the forums.
[18 Sep 23:57] <Goobergunch> And Max said, "Let there be regions", and there were regions.
[18 Sep 23:57] <Blue_Wolf> Too much, Goober
[18 Sep 23:57] <Blue_Wolf> Skip ahead a bit
[18 Sep 23:57] <Goobergunch> Max saw that the regions were good, and He separated the User-Created Regions from the Game-Created Regions.
[18 Sep 23:58] <Eluvatar> Some time later, Max decided that multiple Pacifics were a good idea
[18 Sep 23:58] <Blue_Wolf> Instead of just the one
[18 Sep 23:58] <Eluvatar> and lo, all five of them began to accept new nations
[18 Sep 23:58] <Eluvatar> The North Pacific soon grew to be immense and vast.
[18 Sep 23:58] <Eluvatar> There were a number of delegates of whom history tells us little to nothing.
[18 Sep 23:58] <harmoneia> and some time much later UN threatened to sue Max, hence the birth of WA
[18 Sep 23:58] <Eluvatar> Of Treenudity I know nothing.
[18 Sep 23:58] <Eluvatar> Nastic is the first Delegate of the North Pacific who was familiar to me.
[18 Sep 23:59] <Eluvatar> For a time he was a big figure, with hundreds and hundreds of endorsements
[18 Sep 23:59] <Blue_Wolf> Yeah, the *actual* United Nations was going the sue Max
[18 Sep 23:59] <Kurosaki> Yes, I read his blog.
[18 Sep 23:59] <Blue_Wolf> Best April Fool's "joke" ever
[18 Sep 23:59] <Eluvatar> At a certain point, he, Wilkshire, and The Twoslit Experiment began to switch around the delegacy between them
[18 Sep 23:59] <harmoneia> cool, I do too
[18 Sep 23:59] <Eluvatar> This lasted for some time.
[19 Sep 00:00] <Goobergunch> I don't think the Coming of the Great Blight will make sense without NPO backstory
[19 Sep 00:00] <Eluvatar> One can think of the subsequent history of TNP as a struggle between Twoslit, a faction containing Wilkshire, and outside forces.
[19 Sep 00:00] <Eluvatar> The Twoslit Experiment established the North Pacific offsite forum at s2.invisionfree.invalid/The_North_Pacific
[19 Sep 00:01] <Goobergunch> aka "Old Blue"
[19 Sep 00:01] <Eluvatar> It later came to be known as "Old Blue"
[19 Sep 00:01] <Eluvatar> Yes
[19 Sep 00:01] <Eluvatar> The Twoslit Experiment also joined TNP to the Alliance Defense Network, or ADN
[19 Sep 00:01] <Eluvatar> The first foreign shock came from the NPO, and Goobergunch apparently would like to explain them
[19 Sep 00:02] <Eluvatar> Goobergunch is most certainly better informed about the fall of Thedoc
[19 Sep 00:02] <Dyr> I think theres a thread over in TWP's forum that covers their history pretty well, if you want to go searching
[19 Sep 00:02] <Goobergunch> Thedoc was one of the old Delegates of the Pacific.
[19 Sep 00:02] <Blue_Wolf> Yes, he was.
[19 Sep 00:02] <Blue_Wolf> I was TNP once
[19 Sep 00:02] <Blue_Wolf> I AM PART OF HISTORY O_o
[19 Sep 00:03] * Kurosaki congratulates Blue Wolf.
[19 Sep 00:03] <Dyr> Because of JAL
[19 Sep 00:03] <Goobergunch> Back in these days, Delegate security was lax, as most people imagined that the moderators would take care of any particularly nasty Delegates.
[19 Sep 00:03] <Eluvatar> Regional Controls were a new thing
[19 Sep 00:03] <Blue_Wolf> *TNP delegate once. I need to lay off the beers >_>
[19 Sep 00:04] <Goobergunch> Influence didn't exist yet. A Delegate could eject and ban as many nations as they wanted, subject only to rules against griefing.
[19 Sep 00:05] <Goobergunch> So the nation Francos Spain rapidly increased his endorsement count, and, while Thedoc ejected him, he also unbanned him prior to the server update.
[19 Sep 00:05] <Goobergunch> And so Francos Spain became delegate of The Pacific.
[19 Sep 00:05] <Kurosaki> Ah. A shame. I was going to say, Blue Wolf...
[19 Sep 00:05] <Kurosaki> ...to BECOME a Region.
[19 Sep 00:05] <Goobergunch> And then the mass ejections started.
[19 Sep 00:05] <Eluvatar> At that time, there was no separate Ejection button
[19 Sep 00:05] <Goobergunch> (I'm summarizing -- there was a lot of weird intrigue involving his nation getting accidentally deleted and such in the first few days.)
[19 Sep 00:06] <Kurosaki> Lovely.
[19 Sep 00:06] <Goobergunch> The former regional leadership of The Pacific was understandably unhappy about being summarily banjected.
...
[19 Sep 00:06] <Eluvatar> Oh there's a useful thread by Kandarin
...
[19 Sep 00:06] <Goobergunch> And, since a lot of other people weren't thrilled about mass ejections in the Pacific, they got a lot of friends.
[19 Sep 00:07] <Eluvatar> Military Blunders: NationStates
[19 Sep 00:07] <Eluvatar> http://s8.zetaboards.com/The_RR_and_RRA/topic/503382/1/
[19 Sep 00:07] <Eluvatar> Chapter 3: Francos Spain
[19 Sep 00:07] <Goobergunch> Okay, Kandarin tells it better than I would right now.
[19 Sep 00:08] <Eluvatar> don't read too far ahead right now though please, Kurosaki >_>
[19 Sep 00:08] <Eluvatar> Back to TNP:
[19 Sep 00:08] <Eluvatar> So Twoslit joined the ADN.
[19 Sep 00:08] <Eluvatar> The North Pacific Army was formed
[19 Sep 00:08] <Eluvatar> and participated in ADN operations
[19 Sep 00:08] * Kurosaki ponders naming oneself after the somewhat-sycophant who survived the conflagration that consumed his dictator superiors.
[19 Sep 00:08] <Eluvatar> including attempts to liberate the Pacific
[19 Sep 00:08] <harmoneia> Elu takes much pleasure from this apparently :p
[19 Sep 00:09] <Eluvatar> This was in 2004.
[19 Sep 00:09] <Kurosaki> ADN.
[19 Sep 00:09] <Kurosaki> ?
[19 Sep 00:09] <Eluvatar> Alliance Defense Network
[19 Sep 00:09] <Kurosaki> K.
[19 Sep 00:09] <Eluvatar> a large 'defender' alliance, now defunct
[19 Sep 00:10] <Eluvatar> the core regions were Equilism, Nasicournia, and at one time the North Pacific and the West Pacific
[19 Sep 00:10] <Eluvatar> It had a very large number of members.
[19 Sep 00:10] <Naivetry> and TRR, but quietly, says Kandy.
[19 Sep 00:10] <Eluvatar> Right.
[19 Sep 00:10] <Eluvatar> I don't know how big RRA may have been then.
[19 Sep 00:10] <Eluvatar> During 2004, discussions came to the North Pacific forum that TNP should have a constitution
[19 Sep 00:11] <Eluvatar> In response to Francos Spain, a number of pacific regions had adopted constitutions
[19 Sep 00:11] <Eluvatar> Some perhaps hoped that with a constitution, someone like Francos would be stopped
...
[19 Sep 00:11] <Eluvatar> Others perhaps hoped that by creating a large enough group of people identified with the government, they would make a large enough group of people with incentive to stop any possible Francos
...
[19 Sep 00:12] <Eluvatar> But in the North Pacific these discussions eventually moved in the direction of a constitution more or less lifted from the constitution of the South Pacific at that time.d
...
[19 Sep 00:13] <Eluvatar> Under Magicality, a referendum was held, and that constitution, which I refer to as the Blackshear constitution, was adopted.
...
[19 Sep 00:13] <Eluvatar> However, it was not signed by the Delegate before she went inactive.
[19 Sep 00:13] <Eluvatar> She vanished completely.
...
[19 Sep 00:13] <Eluvatar> At this time, close behind her in endorsements were the then-newbie Thel D'Ran, TNP's mapmaker; and a somewhat unknown nation who had however been on the forum called UPS Rail
...
[19 Sep 00:15] <Eluvatar> Thel D'Ran was worried as UPS Rail approached Magicality's level
...
[19 Sep 00:15] <Eluvatar> Unfortunately Thel let slip to him that the constitution was not actually ratified yet
[19 Sep 00:16] --> Gulliver joined the channel
...
[19 Sep 00:16] <Eluvatar> and unfortunately Thel did not understand when UPS Rail said he planned to institute a government on the model of the NPO (New Pacific Order; what Francos Spain's dictatorship was called)
...
[19 Sep 00:16] <Eluvatar> So when UPS Rail did indeed seize the Delegacy, he declared a new regime
[19 Sep 00:16] <Eluvatar> He did not sign the constitution.
[19 Sep 00:17] <Eluvatar> Instead, he declared an endocap (for the first time in TNP, I believe) -- a maximum level of endorsements that he would permit
[19 Sep 00:17] <Eluvatar> He came to eject many highly endorsed TNP nations
[19 Sep 00:17] --- ChanServ changed mode: +v Gulliver
[19 Sep 00:17] <Goobergunch> Also, he declared the region to be part of the NPO and basically copypasted their WFE
[19 Sep 00:17] <Eluvatar> Intelligence work by various persons led the world to believe that UPS Rail was none other than Sir Paul of NPO
[19 Sep 00:17] <Eluvatar> (it also happens to be an anagram, clever eh?)
[19 Sep 00:18] <Eluvatar> For reasons I have not understood, UPS Rail got tired of the abuse hurled at him by irate citizens and resigned in favor of Great Bight.
[19 Sep 00:18] <Durkadurkiranistan> Sir Paul was too nice
[19 Sep 00:18] <Goobergunch> aka Mammothistan, IIRC?
[19 Sep 00:18] <Eluvatar> Great Bight is known now to have been controlled by NPO's Mammothistan yes
[19 Sep 00:18] <Durkadurkiranistan> Mammo was less nice
[19 Sep 00:18] <Eluvatar> it was not known then
[19 Sep 00:18] <Durkadurkiranistan> though it was patently obvious to anyone with a brain
[19 Sep 00:18] <Eluvatar> Mammothistan is also known as New People and Upper Kirby
[19 Sep 00:19] <Biyah`Away> Yay Mammo
[19 Sep 00:19] <Goobergunch> I didn't remember if we ever confirmed it
[19 Sep 00:19] <Eluvatar> Great Bight declared TNP to be under the regime of ALSO
[19 Sep 00:19] <Eluvatar> which I believe he modeled on Vichy France
[19 Sep 00:19] <Eluvatar> Great Bight ejected nations a great deal
[19 Sep 00:19] <Goobergunch> Well
[19 Sep 00:19] <Goobergunch> He first modeled it on pirate jokes
[19 Sep 00:19] <Eluvatar> That too
[19 Sep 00:19] <Eluvatar> made lots of nations WALK THE PLANK
[19 Sep 00:19] <Goobergunch> Seriously, after summer '04 I didn't want to hear about pirates for years
...
[19 Sep 00:20] <Eluvatar> including for reasons of being above him in the regional ranking
...
[19 Sep 00:20] <Eluvatar> Great Bight's reign of terror was very disheartening to North Pacificans
[19 Sep 00:20] <Eluvatar> they congregated in Avengers Assemble
[19 Sep 00:20] <Kurosaki> Why.
[19 Sep 00:20] <Eluvatar> and despaired of ever getting their region back
[19 Sep 00:20] * Kurosaki asks a question for the first time.
[19 Sep 00:20] <Durkadurkiranistan> GB was too kickass for TNP
[19 Sep 00:20] <Gulliver> Oh god too much history to process
[19 Sep 00:21] <Eluvatar> However, TNP was a member of ADN and ALL (Allied Liberation League)
[19 Sep 00:21] <Goobergunch> I think it's worth noting that the Rail/Bight propaganda was really awful.
[19 Sep 00:21] <Biyah`Away> History is awesome
[19 Sep 00:21] <Eluvatar> and, those organizations, long having planned to fight Francos Spain
[19 Sep 00:21] <Kurosaki> But such a reign of terror is quite an opportunity.
[19 Sep 00:21] <Eluvatar> had managed to develop a workable scheme for invading a feeder region.
[19 Sep 00:21] <Goobergunch> They made no attempt to set up a proper regional government until roughly a week before the regime fell.
[19 Sep 00:21] <Eluvatar> This scheme is known as the Puppetmaster attack.
[19 Sep 00:22] <Eluvatar> It is no longer possible by current game mechanics
[19 Sep 00:22] <Eluvatar> but the gist of it is explained...
[19 Sep 00:22] <Goobergunch> Directing people to a children's pirate information site as the "regional forum" doesn't really make people like you.
[19 Sep 00:23] * Eluvatar finds it...
[19 Sep 00:23] <Eluvatar> http://newpacificorder.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=region&action=display&thread=293
[19 Sep 00:23] <Eluvatar> And Better Times (also known as ballotonia or free4all) became delegate of the North Pacific in that brilliantly executed operation
[19 Sep 00:24] * Biyah`Away stabs F4A
[19 Sep 00:24] <Eluvatar> Thel D'Ran, the North Pacifican's elected delegate-in-exile
[19 Sep 00:24] <Biyah`Away> working with him is a real bitch
[19 Sep 00:24] <Eluvatar> swiftly moved to the region and gathered endorsements.
[19 Sep 00:24] <Eluvatar> For whatever reason, Free4all had come to dislike Thel D'Ran
[19 Sep 00:25] <Elindra> Biyah, where were you? We needed Mad`Monk.
[19 Sep 00:25] <Eluvatar> But he did not hinder Thel from attaining the delegacy.
[19 Sep 00:25] <Biyah`Away> I was always here
[19 Sep 00:25] <Eluvatar> Thel immediately ratified the Blackshear constitution
[19 Sep 00:25] <Biyah`Away> I just decided to start talking
[19 Sep 00:25] <Elindra> >_>
[19 Sep 00:25] <Eluvatar> and resumed governance of the North Pacific on old blue
[19 Sep 00:25] <Eluvatar> Tensions however now existed between TNP and ADN, which expected gratitude
...
[19 Sep 00:25] <Eluvatar> (or at least, so things were perceived)
...
[19 Sep 00:26] <Eluvatar> While the NPA continued defending, North Pacificans including Thel D'Ran and others were worried that TNP had become practically a territory of the ADN
[19 Sep 00:26] <Eluvatar> not much a region in its own right.
[19 Sep 00:26] <Eluvatar> So, they planned to end this.
[19 Sep 00:27] <Eluvatar> Sydia succeeded Thel D'Ran as delegate,
[19 Sep 00:27] <Eluvatar> and began peace talks with the People's Republic of the Pacific, the successor state to the NPO.
[19 Sep 00:27] <Eluvatar> (The NPO had ceased with Francos Spain's disappearance after the fall of Great Bight)
[19 Sep 00:27] <Eluvatar> It is my understanding that the ADN took a dim view of these peace talks.
[19 Sep 00:28] <Biyah`Away> Very
[19 Sep 00:28] <Eluvatar> Sydia went inactive, and was replaced by Cathyy under her Great Bight-combatting puppet "Pixiedance"
[19 Sep 00:28] <Biyah> There was talk of replacing the traitors in TNP, when that came to light.
[19 Sep 00:28] <Eluvatar> Due to Great Bight, TNp had already become a bit less friendly of a region.
[19 Sep 00:28] <Eluvatar> Things were about to get much, much worse.
[19 Sep 00:29] <Biyah> You have a blessing for understatement
[19 Sep 00:29] <Goobergunch> Hah
[19 Sep 00:29] <Eluvatar> Cathyy agreed with Thel and others about the dangers of being an ADN puppet region
[19 Sep 00:29] <Kurosaki> Define much worse.
[19 Sep 00:29] <Eluvatar> Cathyy also may have had... a bit of an ego.
[19 Sep 00:29] <Biyah> you'll see
[19 Sep 00:29] * Biyah was ADN high command at this time - it'll be amusing to see a TNP version
[19 Sep 00:29] <Eluvatar> Soon, Cathyy came into conflict with ADN high command
[19 Sep 00:29] <Biyah> ta da
[19 Sep 00:30] <Biyah> heh
[19 Sep 00:30] <Eluvatar> As Delegate of TNP she wished to be included in high level discussions
[19 Sep 00:30] <Eluvatar> This was not something the ADN high command was interested in.
[19 Sep 00:30] <Biyah> Pope told her to shove it
[19 Sep 00:30] * Goobergunch was also ADN at the time, although not quite as high up as Biyah was
[19 Sep 00:30] * Kurosaki runs teeth over fangs, slowly.
[19 Sep 00:30] <Eluvatar> Her assistant, Insane Power, was a bit of a... confrontational character as well
[19 Sep 00:30] <Biyah> nicely put
[19 Sep 00:30] <Biyah> he was an ass
[19 Sep 00:30] <Eluvatar> Cathyy soon sought mediation with the ADN
[19 Sep 00:31] <Eluvatar> Which went nowhere
[19 Sep 00:31] <Biyah> which we publicly agreed too - and privately thought was a stall for time and propaganda.
[19 Sep 00:31] <Eluvatar> And then had Wilkshire as the representative of TNP in ADN withdraw from ADN.
[19 Sep 00:31] <Biyah> ... which caused the Intel and Blackops departments to reactivate in TNP
[19 Sep 00:31] <Goobergunch> Was that before or after she filed ADN charges against me for interfering in regional affairs?
[19 Sep 00:31] <Eluvatar> Cry havoc and let loose the dogs of war.
[19 Sep 00:31] <Goobergunch> (Which PH laughed off, incidentally.)
[19 Sep 00:31] <Eluvatar> Goobergunch: probably after.
[19 Sep 00:31] <Biyah> yup
[19 Sep 00:32] <Eluvatar> Half the North Pacific cabinet resigned
[19 Sep 00:32] <Eluvatar> (which turned out to have been a TERRIBLE idea on their part...)
[19 Sep 00:32] <Eluvatar> Great agitation was raised to remove Cathyy, who was recognized to be behind (at least the immediacy of) the action
[19 Sep 00:32] <Biyah> Intel was always watching TNP at that time - but once TNP pulled out, suddenly we started planning another counter-revolution against the 'excesses of the new TNP dictatorship'
[19 Sep 00:32] <Biyah> etc
[19 Sep 00:32] <Eluvatar> Great agitation was present in IRC channels, Cathyy was personally compared to Hitler, etc etc etc
[19 Sep 00:33] <Eluvatar> Cathyy did not handle this.
[19 Sep 00:33] <Biyah> no, she did not
[19 Sep 00:33] <Eluvatar> I'm not sure I could have really
[19 Sep 00:33] <Eluvatar> It was rather alot.
[19 Sep 00:33] * Biyah remembers calling her Hitler.
[19 Sep 00:33] <Eluvatar> Ah.
[19 Sep 00:33] <Biyah> and a nutjob
[19 Sep 00:33] <Eluvatar> So it was you she mentioned.
[19 Sep 00:33] <Biyah> oh yes. I slammed her on IRC
[19 Sep 00:33] <Eluvatar> She's not... well anyway...
[19 Sep 00:33] <Eluvatar> Not the subject.
[19 Sep 00:33] <Biyah> I was told to make her unstable.
[19 Sep 00:34] <Biyah> by... various parts of Casino Royale
[19 Sep 00:34] <Eluvatar> After days on end without sleep
[19 Sep 00:34] <Eluvatar> Cathyy was at her breaking point.
[19 Sep 00:34] <Eluvatar> In the mean time, Free4All had come to TNP
[19 Sep 00:34] <Eluvatar> and begun campaigning for the Delegacy.
[19 Sep 00:34] <Biyah> and Thel counter-campaigned against him
[19 Sep 00:34] <Eluvatar> The pro-independence wing of TNP perceived this as an invasion.
[19 Sep 00:34] <Eluvatar> Which, to be honest, I'd say it pretty much was.
[19 Sep 00:34] <Biyah> yup
[19 Sep 00:34] <Eluvatar> I know Ballotonia probably wouldn't agree.
[19 Sep 00:35] <Eluvatar> Regardless, Cathyy wished to eject him
[19 Sep 00:35] <Biyah> Although he was acting on his own at the time. ADN didn't send him in, we tried to get him to shut up
[19 Sep 00:35] <Eluvatar> but couldn't bring herself to do it.
[19 Sep 00:35] <Biyah> but. you do not shut up F4A
[19 Sep 00:35] <Eluvatar> No
[19 Sep 00:35] <Eluvatar> You do not.
[19 Sep 00:35] <Eluvatar> F4a shuts up YOU
[19 Sep 00:35] * Kurosaki appreciated that double identification, by Biyah.
[19 Sep 00:35] <Biyah> So, once it became obvious there'd be a war, we brought him into the war.
[19 Sep 00:35] <Eluvatar> So Cathyy had been speaking with persons of the PRP
[19 Sep 00:35] <Eluvatar> such as Pierconium
[19 Sep 00:35] <Goobergunch> I should note that F4A was not a member of the ADN, although he had fairly broad access to the forums.
[19 Sep 00:35] <Eluvatar> Speaking a great deal
[19 Sep 00:36] <Eluvatar> So when she reached her breaking point
[19 Sep 00:36] <Eluvatar> she went and offered Pierconium control of her nation
[19 Sep 00:36] <Biyah> He had nearly full access to the blackops stuff
[19 Sep 00:36] <Biyah> But yeah, he was A.L.L.
[19 Sep 00:36] <Eluvatar> so he could go and eject Free4All from TNP
[19 Sep 00:36] <Eluvatar> Which he did.
[19 Sep 00:36] <Eluvatar> In parallel to this, Twoslit had come back
[19 Sep 00:36] <Eluvatar> and, as root admin, and a devout ADNer
[19 Sep 00:36] <Eluvatar> I mean, loyal,
[19 Sep 00:36] <Eluvatar> he went and removed the government's moderation privileges
[19 Sep 00:36] <Biyah> heh
[19 Sep 00:37] <Eluvatar> Twoslit later came to be known as tyrannical
[19 Sep 00:37] <Goobergunch> Moldavi was already pretty high on the most of the ADN's shitlist for effectively committing high treason a few months earlier.
[19 Sep 00:37] <Biyah> effectively?
[19 Sep 00:37] <Eluvatar> I do not know to what effect his tendencies to edit posts of people he disliked or disagreed with were in play at that time.
[19 Sep 00:37] <Biyah> He DID commit high treason
[19 Sep 00:37] <Eluvatar> Pierconium = Ivan Moldavi
[19 Sep 00:37] * Biyah stabs Sparrow/New Sparrow
[19 Sep 00:37] <Goobergunch> Putting that word in there ONLY because the ADN legal system was completely broken.
[19 Sep 00:37] <Eluvatar> He led the region of New Sparrow
[19 Sep 00:37] <Biyah> and I still want to kill Polts!!
[19 Sep 00:37] <Biyah> He sucked!!
[19 Sep 00:37] <Goobergunch> OH GOD
[19 Sep 00:38] <Biyah> A lot!!
[19 Sep 00:38] <Goobergunch> I found a Polts post earlier today
[19 Sep 00:38] <Eluvatar> heheh!!
[19 Sep 00:38] <Goobergunch> I wanted to stab
[19 Sep 00:38] <Biyah> exactly!!
[19 Sep 00:38] <Eluvatar> Polstamaa posts like this!!
[19 Sep 00:38] <Eluvatar> Always!!
[19 Sep 00:38] <Biyah> Without fail!!
[19 Sep 00:38] <Eluvatar> Is there any question!?
[19 Sep 00:38] <Biyah> No!!
[19 Sep 00:38] <Eluvatar> But he's not flaming you!!
[19 Sep 00:38] <Biyah> I only got him to break character once
[19 Sep 00:38] * Kurosaki is now 2.5 pages behind.
[19 Sep 00:38] <Eluvatar> This is just how he posts!!
[19 Sep 00:38] <Biyah> and it took some doing
[19 Sep 00:38] <Eluvatar> How dare you use inflammatory language against him!!
[19 Sep 00:38] <harmoneia> I miss Polts
[19 Sep 00:39] <Eluvatar> It's a clever trick
[19 Sep 00:39] <Kurosaki> MORE EASILY THAN YOU CAN COMPREHEND, KNAVE.
[19 Sep 00:39] * Kurosaki goes back to catching up.
[19 Sep 00:39] <Biyah> I liked Polts as Tyga
[19 Sep 00:39] <Biyah> I HATED the polts persona
[19 Sep 00:40] <Eluvatar> So, the region had, I believe, moved to a new forum (secretly created by Ivan Moldavi) *before* the handover of pixiedance
[19 Sep 00:40] <Biyah> *Tygaland
[19 Sep 00:40] <Biyah> it was created about a week before the annoucement, if I recall
[19 Sep 00:40] <Eluvatar> After the handover, the forum account "The Delegate" began posting
[19 Sep 00:40] <Biyah> before Ivan hid the board info
[19 Sep 00:40] <Biyah> The Minister, wasnt it?
[19 Sep 00:40] <Eluvatar> I think they predicted issues with Twoslit before they got to that point
[19 Sep 00:40] <Goobergunch> The Minister is also what I remember
[19 Sep 00:40] <Eluvatar> I think he made the Minister account later
[19 Sep 00:40] <Biyah> mmm
[19 Sep 00:40] <Eluvatar> the Delegate was acct 0 I believe.
[19 Sep 00:41] <Eluvatar> I mean, 1
[19 Sep 00:41] <Biyah> I don't remember The Delegate. But, he did most of his stuff as Minister
[19 Sep 00:41] <Eluvatar> Yes
[19 Sep 00:41] <harmoneia> never knew I'd be able to say this but I miss Ivan too :p
[19 Sep 00:41] <Biyah> Ivan was a joy to post against
[19 Sep 00:41] <Eluvatar> http://s4.invisionfree.invalid/thenorthpacific
[19 Sep 00:41] <Eluvatar> hm
[19 Sep 00:41] <harmoneia> indeed
[19 Sep 00:41] <Eluvatar> Yes tehre it is
[19 Sep 00:41] <Goobergunch> Ivan was such a fun opponent
[19 Sep 00:41] <Eluvatar> Don't look yet
[19 Sep 00:42] <Eluvatar> So in any case, for a couple days Ivan was secretly controlling Pixiedance
[19 Sep 00:42] <Eluvatar> Flemingovia (a TNPer) quickly suspected it
[19 Sep 00:42] <Biyah> the only time Flem was of use
[19 Sep 00:42] <Eluvatar> (I mean, Pierconium suddenly resigned UN membership, and then Pixiedance was being controlled by someone else, HMM)
[19 Sep 00:42] <Biyah> he annoyed me in both of my TNP personas
[19 Sep 00:42] <Eluvatar>
[19 Sep 00:42] <Eluvatar> I'll get to that SoS
[19 Sep 00:42] <r3n> Hey, I had a question
[19 Sep 00:42] <Eluvatar> yes, r3n?
[19 Sep 00:42] <Biyah> I wasnt SoS
[19 Sep 00:42] <r3n> going a few pages back, sorry I was reading up
[19 Sep 00:42] <Biyah> well - only for a night
[19 Sep 00:43] <Eluvatar>
[19 Sep 00:43] <r3n> I've heard this assertion that Great Bight was Mammo
[19 Sep 00:43] <Biyah> he was
[19 Sep 00:43] <Biyah> self admitted
[19 Sep 00:43] <Eluvatar> He later confessed
[19 Sep 00:43] <Biyah> and by IP check
[19 Sep 00:43] <Eluvatar> like years later XD
[19 Sep 00:43] <r3n> and apparently there was some evidence of that
[19 Sep 00:43] <r3n> but I've never seen either the evidence or the confession
[19 Sep 00:43] <Eluvatar> New People made a big long post about all sorts of things
[19 Sep 00:43] <Biyah> because we don't post ip information
[19 Sep 00:43] <Eluvatar> its' in TWP's history section
[19 Sep 00:43] <r3n> (I was not around when it happened)
[19 Sep 00:43] <Biyah> his confession is public
[19 Sep 00:43] <Biyah> if you can find it
[19 Sep 00:43] <Naivetry> and he was what's his name when Dali went rogue...
[19 Sep 00:43] <Eluvatar> I'll get it out
[19 Sep 00:43] <Eluvatar> Upper Kirby
[19 Sep 00:44] <Eluvatar> I already said that Nai
[19 Sep 00:44] <Naivetry> oh, boo. that's what I get for multitasking.
[19 Sep 00:44] <r3n> Well, I didn't expect the IPs, but until, well, now, I didn't know that evidence was IP evidence
[19 Sep 00:44] <Biyah> yes, you're missing history
[19 Sep 00:44] <Biyah> tsk
[19 Sep 00:44] <r3n> Hmm, I remember that post
[19 Sep 00:44] * Kurosaki finally draws back alongside, on the mainstretch...
[19 Sep 00:44] <Dyr> the confession shouldnt be that hard to find - I think I've read it during my perusing of NS history - meaning its not on some long dead forum
[19 Sep 00:44] <Goobergunch> I *don't* remember that post
[19 Sep 00:44] <Eluvatar> Right.
[19 Sep 00:44] <r3n> Probably didn't read it very carefully at the time
[19 Sep 00:44] <Biyah> its in TWP history somewhere
[19 Sep 00:45] <Eluvatar> So soon after, Ivan Moldavi returned the nation to Cathyy
[19 Sep 00:45] <r3n> I think we have a copy of it in GB&I
[19 Sep 00:45] <Goobergunch> But I was on an AIM chat with him where I think he mentioned it. One of Kandy's..
[19 Sep 00:45] <Eluvatar> and made public apologies in all sorts of places about it
[19 Sep 00:45] <Eluvatar> the Meritocracy in particular had been rather worried about what he was doing, I believe.
[19 Sep 00:45] <Kurosaki> Meritocracy?
[19 Sep 00:45] <Biyah> if I recall, the PRP gave him a fairly decent slap for it. And the Merit as well
[19 Sep 00:45] <Eluvatar> Secretly however, Cathyy and Ivan had already agreed to make the transfer again soon
[19 Sep 00:45] <Eluvatar> The Meritocracy was an influential region back in the day
[19 Sep 00:45] <Biyah> Meritocracy was a semi-RPG region, based on a roman setup
[19 Sep 00:45] <Eluvatar> a bit of a gathering place of the best of the rest
[19 Sep 00:45] <Biyah> very influential in terms of pure politics
[19 Sep 00:45] <Eluvatar> or so it liked to think of itself
[19 Sep 00:45] * Kurosaki has missed roughly 89% of the references, by this point, just to warn.
[19 Sep 00:45] <Biyah> to get in was to say you were in the Who's Who of NS
[19 Sep 00:46] <Biyah> just ask, we'll explain
[19 Sep 00:46] <Eluvatar> It had a self-selecting Senate
[19 Sep 00:46] <Goobergunch> If you have any questions, feel free to ask. We love reminiscing.
[19 Sep 00:46] <Eluvatar> and being in this Senate had cachet
[19 Sep 00:46] <Eluvatar> Ivan Moldavi risked losing membership
[19 Sep 00:46] <Eluvatar> so he made that apology
[19 Sep 00:46] <Biyah> self selecting - with a good deal of PRP'ers in it. *stabs
[19 Sep 00:46] <Eluvatar> That's how I read it anyways.
[19 Sep 00:46] * Kurosaki will be asking a sh/tton of questions over the coming WEEKS.
[19 Sep 00:46] <Biyah> that's how we read it, too
[19 Sep 00:46] <Naivetry> I found out about Upper Kirby from someone else, but that was back in my very early plotting days. I was just sitting around and soaking up all this history.
[19 Sep 00:46] <Biyah> Nai was a good student, heh
[19 Sep 00:47] <Eluvatar> So then, the switch was made again. This time permanently.
[19 Sep 00:47] <Goobergunch> I don't suppose anybody's contacted Winnipeg to try to get those forums back up?
[19 Sep 00:47] <Eluvatar> Ivan Moldavi wanted his own enjoyment
[19 Sep 00:47] * Kurosaki does not know who Naivetry is, thus likely surpassing him in naivetry.
[19 Sep 00:47] * Naivetry laughs
[19 Sep 00:47] <Eluvatar> and for that purpose, he planned to completely redo TNP governance to be a dictatorship
[19 Sep 00:47] <Naivetry> it's okay, I'm retired.
[19 Sep 00:47] * Biyah gasps
[19 Sep 00:47] <Eluvatar> with him as dictator.
[19 Sep 00:47] <Biyah> former head of Equilism, The Rejected Relams
[19 Sep 00:47] <Eluvatar> and Nai is a her
[19 Sep 00:48] <Biyah> a few other places. Part of the Empire conspiracy, and my lady wife :
[19 Sep 00:48] <Biyah>
[19 Sep 00:48] <Eluvatar> Former Equilism ambassador to Taijitu, too
[19 Sep 00:48] <Durkadurkiranistan> stupid influence
[19 Sep 00:48] <Kurosaki> *her
[19 Sep 00:48] <Goobergunch> Oh god. Let's not start listing titles or we'll be here all day.
[19 Sep 00:48] <Durkadurkiranistan> if not for influence I'd still be dictator of TNP
[19 Sep 00:48] <Biyah> yes, yes we would
[19 Sep 00:48] <Biyah> I have 2 pages worth of positions posted
[19 Sep 00:48] <Eluvatar> Remember I said those Ministers who resigned made a mistake, Kurosaki ?
[19 Sep 00:48] <Biyah> I should have held onto the Dominion. One of the last good chances for dictatorship before Influence
[19 Sep 00:49] <Durkadurkiranistan> yeah
[19 Sep 00:49] <Durkadurkiranistan> you should have. detractors can suck it
[19 Sep 00:49] <Biyah> knowing what I know now, I certainly would have
[19 Sep 00:49] <Biyah> so would have most of the Core
[19 Sep 00:49] <Kurosaki> If you like dictatorship so much, why not make the others love you?
[19 Sep 00:49] <Eluvatar>
[19 Sep 00:49] <Eluvatar> I do not like dictatorship
[19 Sep 00:49] <Eluvatar> lest we create a false consensus
[19 Sep 00:49] <Kurosaki> > Biyah
[19 Sep 00:49] <Eluvatar> I'm just pointing out that not everyone here does
[19 Sep 00:49] <Limi> seeing how things turned out I regret not supporting the Core >_>
[19 Sep 00:50] <Biyah> I have before. I have years worth of twisted story - I'll explain it later.
[19 Sep 00:50] <Eluvatar> much as it seems that way
[19 Sep 00:50] <Biyah> lest we get away from TNP
[19 Sep 00:50] <Eluvatar> So then, right, inisters
[19 Sep 00:50] <Eluvatar> Thing is, the Blackshear constitution had a two step process for amendment
[19 Sep 00:50] <Eluvatar> a vote of nations, and a vote of cabinet
[19 Sep 00:50] <Eluvatar> the Cabinet was basically the superior legislature.
[19 Sep 00:51] <Eluvatar> And when the Ministers resigned, the Delegate could, indeed had to, appoint replacements
[19 Sep 00:51] <Eluvatar> Soon, Ivan Moldavi was Minister of Justice as Gracius Maximus
[19 Sep 00:51] <Eluvatar> He came up with creative arguments
[19 Sep 00:51] <Eluvatar> which turned the Blackshear constitution into basically that of a dictatorship already
[19 Sep 00:51] <Eluvatar> However, he wasn't satisfied, and soon held a cabinet vote which suspended the Constitution.
[19 Sep 00:52] <Eluvatar> Now taking the reigns of the Delegate nation, he formed the North Pacific Directorate
[19 Sep 00:52] <Goobergunch> And when you gaze long into TNP law....
[19 Sep 00:52] <Eluvatar> (feel free to look at http://s4.invisionfree.invalid/thenorthpacific now)
[19 Sep 00:52] <Biyah> NPD baby, that was where it was at
[19 Sep 00:52] <Eluvatar> The North Pacific Directorate included people from his home region of New Sparrow, like Polstamaa (tygaland)
[19 Sep 00:52] <Eluvatar> Cathyy took the pseudonym Jutensa and became Minister of, I believe, Justice
[19 Sep 00:53] * Kurosaki hasn't even started reading it.
[19 Sep 00:53] <Biyah> TWP intel had to break into their identities to discover that, too
[19 Sep 00:53] <Biyah> TWP/ADN
[19 Sep 00:53] <Eluvatar> Yes
[19 Sep 00:53] <Eluvatar> TWP working for ADN did that
[19 Sep 00:53] <Eluvatar> by having images in signatures and/or avatars in the NPD forum
[19 Sep 00:53] <Biyah> Intel's shining hour
[19 Sep 00:53] <Biyah> 1 pixil images in PMs
[19 Sep 00:53] <Eluvatar> these images were hosted on servers they controlled
[19 Sep 00:53] <Eluvatar> so they got IP logs
[19 Sep 00:54] <Eluvatar> that is more effective XD
[19 Sep 00:54] <Biyah> hosted on private servers. Get the ip and time stamps, compare them to the forum
[19 Sep 00:54] <Eluvatar> Right.
[19 Sep 00:54] <Biyah> hence why so many forums now ban hosted images
[19 Sep 00:54] <Eluvatar> So they got IP info on who "Polstamaa" and ah
[19 Sep 00:54] <Eluvatar> not Jutensa
[19 Sep 00:54] <Eluvatar> Something else [Ed. note: the correct pseudonym was Judessea]
[19 Sep 00:54] <Biyah> Old Lutherens
[19 Sep 00:54] <Eluvatar> but Cathyy's pseudonym, and others
[19 Sep 00:54] <Biyah> I'd have to dig in the logs for all the rest
[19 Sep 00:54] <Eluvatar> The Minister (Ivan) was not pleased.
[19 Sep 00:54] <Biyah> nope, he accused us of everything but raping TNP sheep
[19 Sep 00:55] <Eluvatar> In the mean time, Flemingovia organized the North Pacific Underground, returning to Old Blue
[19 Sep 00:55] <Biyah> ... and that only because he'd already carried off the sheep
[19 Sep 00:55] <Eluvatar> the North Pacific Underground, incorporating Grosseschnauzer, soon morphed into the North Pacific Confederation
[19 Sep 00:55] * Biyah went in as Biyah about that time, with some unendo guides
[19 Sep 00:55] <Biyah> and that's about the last time I really dealt with the NPC
[19 Sep 00:55] <Eluvatar> with the beginnings of what, for lack of a better term, I will call the Monster constitution.
[19 Sep 00:56] <Eluvatar> The NPC did some things.
[19 Sep 00:56] <Eluvatar> Mostly, argue.
[19 Sep 00:56] <Biyah> mostly
[19 Sep 00:56] <Biyah> hence, Stars
[19 Sep 00:56] <Eluvatar> Momentum was not on their side.
[19 Sep 00:56] <Biyah> no, and they wouldnt listen to us on how to get it back
[19 Sep 00:56] <Biyah> They'd been through war before, they said, they could handle it
[19 Sep 00:56] <Eluvatar> While NPD held sway, with an endocap and some exceptions, ADN created a puppe--
[19 Sep 00:56] <Eluvatar> really?
[19 Sep 00:56] <Eluvatar> wow.
[19 Sep 00:56] <Eluvatar> Anyway, ADN created a puppet nation "Stars of Sky"
[19 Sep 00:57] <Biyah> among others
[19 Sep 00:57] <Eluvatar> This nation got an endocap exemption
[19 Sep 00:57] <Eluvatar> and gathered a good few endorsements.
[19 Sep 00:57] <Biyah> yup, snuck into the government
[19 Sep 00:57] <Eluvatar> However, somehow its behavior was correctly identified as suspicious
[19 Sep 00:57] <Biyah> ... a mistake on Uni's part
[19 Sep 00:57] <Biyah> the person covering his nation dropped UN for some reason
[19 Sep 00:57] <Eluvatar> Start of Sky had the problem that it had multiple personalities
[19 Sep 00:57] <Eluvatar> *Stars
[19 Sep 00:57] <Biyah> and, yeah - he liked to post as SoS
[19 Sep 00:58] <Eluvatar> Pope Hope and Unistrut
[19 Sep 00:58] <Biyah> whereas we liked to let Pope alone reply, when possible
[19 Sep 00:58] <Biyah> and Me, briefly
[19 Sep 00:58] <Eluvatar> Pope Hope was known as the queen bee nice lady of ADN
[19 Sep 00:58] <Biyah> the one time Purdy Diamonds dropped uN
[19 Sep 00:58] <Eluvatar> while Unistrut was considered more confrontational
[19 Sep 00:58] <Eluvatar> One can see how this could be jarring.
[19 Sep 00:58] <Biyah> Hezz could be quite a bitch when she wanted, LOL. But yes, she had the public image down pat
[19 Sep 00:58] <Eluvatar> Stars of Sky was ejected, and formed the region of Stars
[19 Sep 00:59] <Eluvatar> to which it recruited nations from TNP to resist NPD
[19 Sep 00:59] <Eluvatar> -- separately from NPC of course.
[19 Sep 00:59] <Biyah> which had been created almost entirely by members of the ADN, those few who were trusted by Casino Royale
[19 Sep 00:59] <Biyah> and then, yeah, we started recruiting
[19 Sep 00:59] <Eluvatar> NPC did not much like this, later on
[19 Sep 00:59] <Biyah> nope. They argued with us endlessly
[19 Sep 00:59] <Eluvatar> Momentum was still on the NPD's side
[19 Sep 00:59] * Biyah was head of diplomacy, and got to hear plenty
[19 Sep 00:59] <Eluvatar> then The Minister got bored
[19 Sep 00:59] <Eluvatar> and decided to have an ejection spree
[19 Sep 01:00] <Eluvatar> That shifted things a bit.
[19 Sep 01:00] <Biyah> yup. All of us started keeping lists of those he removed, and putting them in our signatures. Great PR
[19 Sep 01:00] <Eluvatar> Soon, he became fatigued and busy, and returned control to cathyy---
[19 Sep 01:00] <Biyah> ... who wasnt up for it
[19 Sep 01:00] <Eluvatar> who turned around and immediately gave control of pixiedance to her now boyfriend, Insane Power
[19 Sep 01:00] <Eluvatar> at that time known as Insane Legends.
...
[19 Sep 01:00] <Biyah> ... who really was nuts
...
[19 Sep 01:01] <Goobergunch> His nation was... aptly named.
[19 Sep 01:01] <Biyah> Very
...
[19 Sep 01:01] <Eluvatar> Indeed.
[19 Sep 01:01] <Eluvatar> Insane Power and Ivan did not get along
[19 Sep 01:01] <Eluvatar> and soon Ivan was airing all sorts of NPD dirty laundry to the public
[19 Sep 01:01] <Eluvatar> mainly to splash dirt on Insane Power and Cathyy
[19 Sep 01:01] <Biyah> IP was an emotional wreck who liked going on passionate sidequests
[19 Sep 01:01] <Goobergunch> That was a FUN day.
[19 Sep 01:01] <Biyah> Ivan was a very coldly logical type
[19 Sep 01:01] <Eluvatar> Who pointed out that Ivan wasn' sharing everything, at all
[19 Sep 01:02] <Eluvatar> Insane Power organized TNPG, The North Pacific Government, on another forum.
[19 Sep 01:02] <Durkadurkiranistan> dumbest feeder government name EVER
[19 Sep 01:02] <Eluvatar> Unfortunately that forum on s9 is locked down
[19 Sep 01:02] <Durkadurkiranistan> seriously what the fuck was he thinking?
[19 Sep 01:02] <Eluvatar> The idea was, I believe,
[19 Sep 01:02] <Biyah> not much, as per usual
[19 Sep 01:02] <Eluvatar> to have his group as the Government
[19 Sep 01:02] <Naivetry> Ivan!
[19 Sep 01:02] <Eluvatar> and allow an Opposition
[19 Sep 01:02] <Eluvatar> in a parliamentary kind of system.
[19 Sep 01:02] <Durkadurkiranistan> still dumb
[19 Sep 01:02] <Eluvatar> This did not work out.
[19 Sep 01:02] <Biyah> ... and Nai is head fangirl of Ivan
[19 Sep 01:02] <Naivetry> yes.
[19 Sep 01:02] <Durkadurkiranistan> LOL
[19 Sep 01:03] <Kurosaki> Why.
[19 Sep 01:03] <Eluvatar> All sorts of people continued to be very suspicious of Cathyy and Insane Power
[19 Sep 01:03] * Unibot can't wait to have fangirls.
[19 Sep 01:03] <Biyah> Nai likes a good logical dictator
[19 Sep 01:03] <Durkadurkiranistan> LOL Unibot
[19 Sep 01:03] <Eluvatar> Insane Power had been Minister of Justice under Ivan
[19 Sep 01:03] <Naivetry> because he's SO MUCH FUN to watch.
[19 Sep 01:03] <Eluvatar> and did the 2 minute trials for hte mass ejections
...
[19 Sep 01:03] <Durkadurkiranistan> 'can't wait' implies that you will one day have fangirls
[19 Sep 01:03] <Kurosaki> Too much logic is a very bad thing.
[19 Sep 01:03] <Biyah> yeah, Ivan is like a force of nature when he's in his element.
[19 Sep 01:03] <r3n> Well, he did move NS every time he did something
[19 Sep 01:03] <Biyah> Not when you have a feeder in your grip, with no influence
[19 Sep 01:03] <Eluvatar> Cathyy had removed the region from ADN
[19 Sep 01:03] <Biyah> Cold Logic is very useful
[19 Sep 01:03] <Eluvatar> So then, in about a month
[19 Sep 01:04] <Unibot> "'can't wait' implies that you will one day have fangirls" << If it never happens, I technically cannot wait.
[19 Sep 01:04] <Eluvatar> after some latenight angry chatting on IRC
[19 Sep 01:04] <Biyah> The same as my public passionate style is very useful in a rebellion
[19 Sep 01:04] <Eluvatar> Insane Power apparently decided he was taking his ball and going home
[19 Sep 01:04] <Eluvatar> and Pixiedance and Insane Legends were swiftly resigned from the UN.
[19 Sep 01:04] <Biyah> Insane Power had his power whittled to almost nothing
[19 Sep 01:04] <Eluvatar> This was May, 2005
[19 Sep 01:04] <Eluvatar> And it was a bonanza.
[19 Sep 01:04] <Biyah> We had ripped his endorsement level down to a third of its pre-war total
[19 Sep 01:04] <Biyah> (my job)
[19 Sep 01:04] <Eluvatar> The next most endorsed nation was Lungwallabad
[19 Sep 01:04] <Eluvatar> an old, apolitical nation.
[19 Sep 01:05] <Biyah> I was in charge of the propaganda
[19 Sep 01:05] <Eluvatar> Thel D'Ran was persuaded to come back from his new region of Lemuria to TNP
[19 Sep 01:05] <Eluvatar> and endorsed every nation in the region.
[19 Sep 01:05] <Eluvatar> (this is how endorsements are usually gathered in large regions)
[19 Sep 01:05] <Eluvatar> (reciprocation)
[19 Sep 01:05] <Eluvatar> Thel D'Ran came very close to becoming delegate
[19 Sep 01:05] <Biyah> he also continued fighting against Leonardo DaVinci/F4A
[19 Sep 01:05] <Eluvatar> In fact, at the update, it appeared that Thel D'Ran would win
[19 Sep 01:06] <Eluvatar> but several of his endorsers had in fact already updated that update, and so were not counted.
[19 Sep 01:06] <Biyah> then the ADN decided he was dangerous, and we all unendo'd him
[19 Sep 01:06] <r3n> Speaking of which, Ivan's own account of this story in Lemuria makes for an interesting read
[19 Sep 01:06] <Eluvatar> Separately, while pixiedance had resigned from the UN,
[19 Sep 01:06] <r3n> and the ensuing discussion
[19 Sep 01:06] <Eluvatar> IP still had access to regional controls.
[19 Sep 01:06] <Biyah> but, at the same time, there was a rail against SoS - so her endo counts suddenly started ropping
[19 Sep 01:06] <Biyah> dropping
[19 Sep 01:06] <Eluvatar> Stars of Sky was, at this time, banned
[19 Sep 01:07] <Eluvatar> and was utilizing the tactic known as Endo Surfing
[19 Sep 01:07] <Kurosaki> For?
[19 Sep 01:07] <Eluvatar> to keep its endorsements.
[19 Sep 01:07] <Eluvatar> When one Endo Surfs
[19 Sep 01:07] <Eluvatar> one moves ahead of the update
[19 Sep 01:07] <Eluvatar> one's nation does not experience update
[19 Sep 01:07] <Biyah> yes, people started going to where she was and unendoing her, then moving back
[19 Sep 01:07] <Eluvatar> (this is tricky)
[19 Sep 01:07] <Biyah> her total of surf'd updates dropped drastically
[19 Sep 01:07] <Eluvatar> Indeed.
...

Part two in next post.

 

[Eluvatar]

Spoiler: Log part 2

i[19 Sep 01:07] <Biyah> we were... quite irritated
[19 Sep 01:08] <Eluvatar> At the very update
[19 Sep 01:08] <Eluvatar> Insane Power ejected Lungwallabad as pixiedance
[19 Sep 01:08] <Eluvatar> BUT IT WAS TOO LATE
...
[19 Sep 01:08] <Eluvatar> Lungwallabad was declared delegate of the North Pacific
[19 Sep 01:08] <Biyah> yup, Lung was made delegate.
[19 Sep 01:08] <Eluvatar> WHILE HIS NATION WAS IN HTE REJECTED REALMS
[19 Sep 01:08] <Biyah> the Delegate of One DAy
[19 Sep 01:08] <Eluvatar> So then Lungwallabad returned
[19 Sep 01:08] <Eluvatar> and unbanned Stars of Sky
[19 Sep 01:08] <Biyah> we had his ear, heh
[19 Sep 01:08] <Eluvatar> Stars of Sky promptly returned to take the delegacy with her surfed endos
[19 Sep 01:09] <Eluvatar> And then....
[19 Sep 01:09] <Eluvatar> Stars of Sky set up YET ANOTHER TNP forum
[19 Sep 01:09] <Biyah> not quite true
[19 Sep 01:09] <Elindra> Can you guys archive this somewhere so I can read it when I'm paying attention?
[19 Sep 01:09] <Eluvatar> http://s11.invisionfree.invalid/True_North_Pacific
[19 Sep 01:09] <Biyah> we set up a neutral place where the four different TNP governments could gather to hash it out
[19 Sep 01:09] <Goobergunch> The NS servers were a lot more unstable back in these days, BTW.
[19 Sep 01:09] <Eluvatar> Right
[19 Sep 01:09] <Biyah> because each side said THEIR constitition and government was legit
[19 Sep 01:09] <Goobergunch> So a lot of random glitchiness tended to happen at the most interesting times.
[19 Sep 01:09] <Biyah> The NPC was the most vocal
[19 Sep 01:09] <Eluvatar> Nothing to do with letting ADN people participate without IP tracing
[19 Sep 01:09] <Eluvatar> Of course
[19 Sep 01:09] <Biyah> oh, that was definately involved.
[19 Sep 01:09] <Eluvatar> So then a constitutional convention was held in s11
[19 Sep 01:09] <Naivetry> and Kuro - for why I'm an Ivan fangirl...
[19 Sep 01:10] <Naivetry> Ivan's just cold-hearted evil. Not a thing you can do about someone that consistent. His whole playing style was on big demonstration that what people might consider in-game morality was simply irrelevant to what really mattered, and that was power. Quote of his: "Fairness is a concept created by the weak to compensate for their unfortunate disposition."
[19 Sep 01:10] <Naivetry> one*
[19 Sep 01:10] <Eluvatar> It was of the " just write shit down and string it together" variety
[19 Sep 01:10] <Eluvatar> The constitution came to largely resemble the NPC constitution,
[19 Sep 01:10] <Eluvatar> just be... a good bit longer.
[19 Sep 01:10] <Biyah> yes, I married an Ivan fangirl. I was almost bummed
[19 Sep 01:10] <Eluvatar> Thus the Monster was born.
[19 Sep 01:10] <r3n> Elindra: I can send you the log later, if you remind me
[19 Sep 01:10] <Eluvatar> The Monster constitution was then confirmed by referendum, 50:4 or so
[19 Sep 01:10] <Biyah> I had to console myself with the thought that I too was feared, though for different reasons
[19 Sep 01:10] <Eluvatar> Insane Power and Cathyy were precluded from participating
[19 Sep 01:10] <Biyah>
[19 Sep 01:10] <Eluvatar> but Polstamaa was permitted.
[19 Sep 01:11] <Eluvatar> Why? Politics.
[19 Sep 01:11] <Eluvatar> While the referendum included a forum question,
[19 Sep 01:11] <Eluvatar> the vote settled on a return to s2 rather than using s11.
[19 Sep 01:11] * Biyah nods
[19 Sep 01:11] <Eluvatar> And so the Monster constitution's government came into existence.
[19 Sep 01:11] <Biyah> I still have the forum ip list from that place
[19 Sep 01:11] <Biyah> it's quite amusing
[19 Sep 01:11] <Kurosaki> *Ivan would probably not like him.*
[19 Sep 01:11] <Eluvatar> It relegated the Delegate to be a functionary
[19 Sep 01:11] <Eluvatar> and empowered an elected Prime Minister
[19 Sep 01:12] <Biyah> ... which was its own seed of destruction. Bored delegates are rogue delegates
[19 Sep 01:12] <Eluvatar> The first Prime Minister was Tresville
[19 Sep 01:12] <Eluvatar> Biyah: it lasted years with no coup
[19 Sep 01:12] <Eluvatar> so I dunno.
[19 Sep 01:12] <Eluvatar> Tresville was of the pro-independence TNP faction from before the civil war
[19 Sep 01:12] <Eluvatar> but he had supported the NPC
[19 Sep 01:12] * Biyah remembers writing the Treaty of the Pacifics with Cisco. It was turned down, then came back with half its clauses removed
[19 Sep 01:12] <Eluvatar> and helped adminster s11
[19 Sep 01:12] <Biyah> rather. I wrote it, he changed a few words
[19 Sep 01:13] <Eluvatar> Tresville is also known as Cisco
[19 Sep 01:13] <Biyah> It's easier to call him Cisco. That's what he was on IRC as
[19 Sep 01:13] <Eluvatar> As his term wound down, Fulhead land, a crony of Insane Power and Cathyy, attempted to run in the following election.
[19 Sep 01:13] <Eluvatar> he was blocked.
[19 Sep 01:13] <Eluvatar> There was more drama, threats of TNP lawsuits...
[19 Sep 01:13] <Eluvatar> Things carried on.
[19 Sep 01:13] <Eluvatar> Soon, Poltsamaa organized a Civil Progressive Party
[19 Sep 01:14] <Biyah> Stars did a slow withdraw, so we wouldnt have to split our time. SoS went exclusively to Pope
[19 Sep 01:14] <Eluvatar> which let people back in, and permitted Blue Wolf and Fedele (aliases of Lone Wolves United members) in
...
[19 Sep 01:14] <Eluvatar> So passed the rest of 2005.
...
[19 Sep 01:15] <Eluvatar> In late 2005, frustrated that they couldn't accomplish much in TNP, Insane Power and Cathyy over on the s9 (TNPG) forums, decided to create a founded region
[19 Sep 01:15] <Biyah> we like interjections
[19 Sep 01:15] <Eluvatar> discussing things with Scardino (Fedele) they decided to make a region with which to exert power
...
[19 Sep 01:15] <Eluvatar> like Pope Hope had power through Nasicournia.
[19 Sep 01:15] <Kurosaki> Lone Wolves United?
[19 Sep 01:15] <Biyah> hehehe
[19 Sep 01:16] <Eluvatar> So, in January of 2006 they created The Lexicon
[19 Sep 01:16] * Kurosaki catching back up again.
[19 Sep 01:16] <Eluvatar> Kurosaki: Lone Wolves United was Scardino's region
[19 Sep 01:16] <Eluvatar> never quite so... volatile
[19 Sep 01:16] <Eluvatar> The Lexicon exhibited rapid growth
[19 Sep 01:16] <Kurosaki> Scardino...?
[19 Sep 01:16] <Biyah> ADN labled The Lex as NPD-2
[19 Sep 01:16] <Eluvatar> as Cathyy was quite good at recruiting (as she had been at gathering endorsements)
[19 Sep 01:16] <Eluvatar> Scardino = Fedele
[19 Sep 01:16] <Biyah> she was a charasmatic woman
[19 Sep 01:16] <Eluvatar> Scardino worked iwth IP and Cathyy at that time
[19 Sep 01:17] <Biyah> this being NS, I'm not sure which part was the greater draw
[19 Sep 01:17] <Elindra> wait, Scardino was female?
[19 Sep 01:17] <Eluvatar> The Lexicon's laws were largely written by Shoeless Joe
[19 Sep 01:17] <Eluvatar> Scardino was male
[19 Sep 01:17] <Biyah> no, Cathyy
[19 Sep 01:17] <Eluvatar> She = Cathyy
[19 Sep 01:17] <Elindra> oh, read it wrong
[19 Sep 01:17] <Biyah> NS spawns fanboys
[19 Sep 01:17] <Eluvatar> Mh.
[19 Sep 01:17] * Kurosaki will try to avoid being one.
[19 Sep 01:17] <Eluvatar> Somebody recruited Gulliver to the Lexicon
[19 Sep 01:17] <Biyah> Pope had a huge following. I had... many, as Purdy
[19 Sep 01:17] <Eluvatar> and he then got me into it.
[19 Sep 01:17] <Kurosaki> What did this Scardino believe in?
[19 Sep 01:17] <Eluvatar> We did Role Playing there.
[19 Sep 01:18] <Eluvatar> Scardino believed in Raiding.
[19 Sep 01:18] <Kurosaki> I see.
[19 Sep 01:18] <Kurosaki> So Cathyy believed in raiding, by affiliation?
[19 Sep 01:18] <Eluvatar> The Lexicon had a fairly democratic constitution and all, but at first I wasn't really paying attention to that.
[19 Sep 01:18] <Eluvatar> Not precisely.
[19 Sep 01:18] <Eluvatar> I mean, her start with NS warfare was fighting off an occupation
[19 Sep 01:18] <Eluvatar> vs Great Bight
[19 Sep 01:19] <Eluvatar> But she came to oppose the Defenders of ADN enough
[19 Sep 01:19] <Eluvatar> to support all their enemies.
[19 Sep 01:19] <Eluvatar> That is my perception, at least.
[19 Sep 01:19] <Kurosaki> Intriguing.
[19 Sep 01:19] <Eluvatar> The Lexicon had over 900 nations within several months.
[19 Sep 01:19] <r3n> (Something irrelevant: does anybody have a link to that screenshot of ADN's planned puppetmaster 2 operation that was circulated by Moldavi? I was remembered of it by the thread in the old NPO forum Elu posted)
[19 Sep 01:19] <Kurosaki> So the raiders...were 'bad' or 'good', here?
[19 Sep 01:19] <Eluvatar> Fulhead Land was the first delegate, then Insane Power.
[19 Sep 01:19] <Eluvatar> I was in the Lexicon
[19 Sep 01:19] <Biyah> I have it somewhere
[19 Sep 01:20] <Eluvatar> I think I would be hard placed to call myself bad.
[19 Sep 01:20] <Biyah> we'd posted a few variants of the attack in different places - to see who would leak
[19 Sep 01:20] <Eluvatar> Although, I did not join the Lexicon Army
[19 Sep 01:20] <Eluvatar> for the silly reason that I worried it's required oath could conflict with the Lexicon's Senate Oath.
[19 Sep 01:20] <Limi> a lot of Lexiconians weren't bad, just misguided >_>
[19 Sep 01:20] <Eluvatar> Yes, that was a good ADN operation vs Ivan.
[19 Sep 01:20] <Kurosaki> You're a raider, then.
[19 Sep 01:21] <Eluvatar> TNP by this time had, in response to mounting insanity by Twoslit, moved forums again
[19 Sep 01:21] <Eluvatar> but this time by consensus
[19 Sep 01:21] <Eluvatar> to s13
[19 Sep 01:21] <Eluvatar> where it has largely stayed ever since.
[19 Sep 01:21] <Eluvatar> http://s13.zetaboards.com/tnp
[19 Sep 01:21] <Biyah> we knew who to cut out of the loop, after that
[19 Sep 01:21] <Eluvatar> That was november 2005.
[19 Sep 01:21] <Biyah> Our posting was too juicy not to screenshot
[19 Sep 01:21] <Eluvatar> Kurosaki: I am a Defender these days.
[19 Sep 01:21] <Eluvatar> I wasn't really involved in raiding per se
[19 Sep 01:22] <Eluvatar> but I was certainly involved in a region which invaded.
[19 Sep 01:22] <Eluvatar> A few months into 2006,
[19 Sep 01:22] <Eluvatar> the Lexicon Army began raiding with LWU
[19 Sep 01:22] <Eluvatar> Soon, it met the North Pacific Army on the battlefield.
[19 Sep 01:22] <Eluvatar> Embassies were closed.
[19 Sep 01:23] <Eluvatar> The North Pacific Intelligence Agency then sent the least competent spy in the history of espionage to spy on LWU and the Lexicon
[19 Sep 01:23] <Eluvatar> LWU wasn't much fussed about this, they simply didn't send the spy on missions.
[19 Sep 01:23] <Limi> not sent per se
[19 Sep 01:23] <Eluvatar> The Lexicon however....
[19 Sep 01:23] <Naivetry> I don't know about least competent... we've had some bad ones.
[19 Sep 01:23] <Eluvatar> Well...
[19 Sep 01:23] <Eluvatar> A member of the Lexicon had pretended to be dying right around this time
[19 Sep 01:23] <Limi> they had knowledge of their intent and did nothing to stop them
[19 Sep 01:23] <Eluvatar> There was much sympathy
[19 Sep 01:23] <Eluvatar> poetry was written
[19 Sep 01:23] <Biyah> oh yeah
[19 Sep 01:23] <Biyah> that
[19 Sep 01:23] <Eluvatar> I too was sucked in to the emotional vortex of sympathy
[19 Sep 01:24] <Eluvatar> Then the Lexicon's admins realized that "Chelle" was lying
[19 Sep 01:24] <Eluvatar> And explained this too us.
[19 Sep 01:24] <Eluvatar> In this volatile mix, that volatile spy under the name of "Paintdrying" stumbled in to make insensitive comments
[19 Sep 01:24] <r3n> Oh I remember that story too
[19 Sep 01:24] <Eluvatar> So then the Lexicon was quite perfectly primed for Insane Power to seize the moment and declare war on the North Pacific.
[19 Sep 01:25] <Eluvatar> We were into it!
[19 Sep 01:25] <Eluvatar> Dozens of active people in the Lexicon, gung ho about taking on this region that our founders told us horror stories about
[19 Sep 01:25] <Eluvatar> and we saw ridiculing our accusation of espionage
[19 Sep 01:25] <Eluvatar> For whatever silly reason, NPIA decided to deny everything
[19 Sep 01:25] <Eluvatar> Although the evidence was clear as day-- hence giving more motivation to the Lexicon's angry masses
[19 Sep 01:26] <Eluvatar> Dozens of puppets raised noise on the North Pacific RMB
[19 Sep 01:26] <Eluvatar> An unendorsement campaign was executed against the then-delegate, Former English Colony
[19 Sep 01:26] <Biyah> Yay ERAS
[19 Sep 01:26] <Eluvatar> This was shortly after influence had been instituted, so it was as yet unclear how that would work.
[19 Sep 01:26] <Limi> the bunny tyrant
[19 Sep 01:26] <Eluvatar> Many regions moved in to support the North Pacific, cancelling out the campaign's effect.
[19 Sep 01:26] * Biyah loved bunny Eras
[19 Sep 01:27] <Biyah> I'm still a fanboy of hers
[19 Sep 01:27] <Eluvatar> On the platform of the Lexicon's war, the North Pacific held a feeder summit, debating a possible feeder unity treaty
[19 Sep 01:27] <Eluvatar> In the mean time, I brought back my old 2004 nation of Zemnaya Svoboda and moved it in to TNP to gather endorsements and join their government covertly
[19 Sep 01:28] <Eluvatar> After Erastide's term ended and she pulled a stupid stunt to anger Insane Power, which I really shouldn't explain right now,
[19 Sep 01:28] <Eluvatar> she resigned from the UN
[19 Sep 01:29] <Eluvatar> making the Vice Delegate of TNP, Unterwasserseestaat, take the responsibility of power.
[19 Sep 01:29] <Eluvatar> Another Lexiconian and I gathered endorsements and stood between Unter and the delegate-elect, Great Bights Mum
[19 Sep 01:29] <Eluvatar> Great Bights Mum had named her nation during the insurrection versus Great Bight;
[19 Sep 01:29] <Eluvatar> she took the stance of telling him off
[19 Sep 01:30] <Kurosaki> Mature.
[19 Sep 01:30] <Eluvatar> I believe she did it well.
[19 Sep 01:30] <Eluvatar> He behaved very immaturely, so it must have been a natural fit of characters
[19 Sep 01:30] <Kurosaki> I see.
[19 Sep 01:30] <Eluvatar> Unter was duly asked to eject those nations
[19 Sep 01:30] <Eluvatar> and he did so, apologiziing to me
[19 Sep 01:31] <Eluvatar> I later returned, and gathered endorsements again. The war had moved into a slower stage however.
[19 Sep 01:31] <Kurosaki> I assume he thought you'd be against it, when you were for it?
[19 Sep 01:31] <Eluvatar> I didn't want to be ejected
[19 Sep 01:31] <Eluvatar> it's just his apology said "even though I know you won't pull something" or something along those lines
[19 Sep 01:31] <Eluvatar> when I was in the mean time telling Cathyy that it was now or never
[19 Sep 01:31] <Elindra> night!
[19 Sep 01:31] <Eluvatar> that I didn't think we'd be able to get any closer, really
[19 Sep 01:32] <Goobergunch> 'night
[19 Sep 01:32] <Eluvatar> Unfortunately, the Lexicon had alienated all who could have been allies
[19 Sep 01:32] <Eluvatar> and the Lexicon Army did not have 50 soldiers, not even close.
[19 Sep 01:32] <r3n> bye Elindra
[19 Sep 01:32] <Kurosaki> Goodnight, Elindra.
[19 Sep 01:33] <Eluvatar> Soon however, internal conflict reared its head, and the Lexicon began a cycle of bannings, popular protests, and reinstatements
[19 Sep 01:33] <Eluvatar> During a cooler stage of this, Limitless Events, LWU member and TNP Minister of Immigration and Internal Affairs, apparently approached the Lexicon High Council
[19 Sep 01:33] <Eluvatar> first, he proposed peace
[19 Sep 01:33] <Eluvatar> then, he proposed a coup d'etat in the North Pacific
[19 Sep 01:34] <Biyah> Limi was good for that
[19 Sep 01:34] <Eluvatar> the Lexicon would supply manpower, and he would allow it to stuff the ballot box, electing him Delegate.
[19 Sep 01:34] <Kurosaki> These LWU members sound like dangerous people.
[19 Sep 01:34] <Eluvatar> Unfortunately for the plot, Shoeless Joe, one of the founders of the Lexicon, fed information to the NPIA
[19 Sep 01:34] <Eluvatar> and he told them about Limi's plot
[19 Sep 01:34] <Eluvatar> And Prime Minister and administrator Flemingovia
[19 Sep 01:35] <Naivetry> wait wait wait, Shoeless Joe was in the Lexicon? How did I not know this?
[19 Sep 01:35] <Eluvatar> told that Limitless Events had passed on a TNP IP list from LWU to the Lexicon
[19 Sep 01:35] <Eluvatar> banned him from the forum summarily
[19 Sep 01:35] <Eluvatar> My RA admission as Eluvatar was undone (illegally I might add, but of course the application was illegal in the first place )
[19 Sep 01:35] <Eluvatar> Then, the great lobbying effort began
[19 Sep 01:36] <Eluvatar> While RA applications were locked down (oh so democratic) Grosseschnauzer proposed a rewrite of the RA oath
[19 Sep 01:36] <Dyr> gnight all
[19 Sep 01:36] <Eluvatar> One which made extra clear, I believe, that Lexiconians were to be excluded
[19 Sep 01:36] <Goobergunch> 'night Dyr
[19 Sep 01:37] <Eluvatar> I lobbied against this
[19 Sep 01:37] <Eluvatar> FOR got less than two thirds of the vote; but discounting abstentions it passed.
[19 Sep 01:37] <Eluvatar> well, after a SNAFU with the voting times of course.
[19 Sep 01:38] <Eluvatar> To my amusement, Grosseschnauzer detected that I had been lobbying
[19 Sep 01:38] <Eluvatar> and considered the lobbying an act of war
[19 Sep 01:38] <Eluvatar> Soon, however, the Lexicon's internal tension blossomed into an all-out separation
[19 Sep 01:38] <Eluvatar> and most of the active members went and founded a new region of Taijitu
[19 Sep 01:38] <Eluvatar> which grew by leaps and bounds, faster than the Lexicon had.
[19 Sep 01:39] <Eluvatar> Taijitu swiftly opened friendly relations with the North Pacific,
[19 Sep 01:39] <Limi> for the record all of those I tried to get into the RA went on to found Taijitu >_>
[19 Sep 01:39] <Eluvatar> welcoming Flemingovia to Taijitu
[19 Sep 01:39] <Eluvatar> Of course, I continued to plot with Limi in secret.
[19 Sep 01:39] <Eluvatar> I loathed the North Pacific constitution you see
[19 Sep 01:39] <Eluvatar> I considered it an abomination.
[19 Sep 01:40] <Kurosaki> Why.
[19 Sep 01:40] <Eluvatar> I wanted reform, and was prepared to use force to get it.
[19 Sep 01:40] <Eluvatar> It was very very long,
[19 Sep 01:40] <Eluvatar> horribly obtuse,
[19 Sep 01:40] <Goobergunch> See previous comment about those who stare into TNP law.
[19 Sep 01:40] <Hax|away> LOL
[19 Sep 01:40] <Biyah> TNP had become so paranoid about the use of power, they tried regulating everything
[19 Sep 01:40] <Eluvatar> et cetera.
[19 Sep 01:40] <Biyah> It was HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE
[19 Sep 01:40] <Hax|away> lolololololol
[19 Sep 01:40] <Eluvatar> it didn't actually accomplish perfect regulation at all
[19 Sep 01:40] <Biyah> nope
[19 Sep 01:40] <Eluvatar> but it was monstrous
[19 Sep 01:40] <Biyah> they tried covering loopholes, they made a dozen more
[19 Sep 01:40] <Biyah> it wa the MOAB
[19 Sep 01:40] <Eluvatar> My favorite part, still on the books,
[19 Sep 01:41] <Biyah> mother of all bombshells
[19 Sep 01:41] <Eluvatar> is the Bill of Rights clause 11
[19 Sep 01:41] * Goobergunch ponders bringing it to a comparative law professor sometime
[19 Sep 01:41] * Kurosaki looks forward to this one.
[19 Sep 01:41] <Eluvatar> 11. No governmental authority of the region has the power to suspend or disregard this Constitution or the Legal Code. In the event of an actual emergency, the governmental authorities of the region, with the express consent of the Nations of the region or their representatives, is authorized to act in any reasonable manner that is consistent as practicable with the pertinent provisions of this Constitution.
[19 Sep 01:41] <Eluvatar> SO YEAH......
[19 Sep 01:42] <Hax|away> lol
[19 Sep 01:42] <Limi> that's the illegally admin editted version >_>
[19 Sep 01:42] <Eluvatar> That's always been there Limi
[19 Sep 01:42] <Limi> there used to be a missing period after legal code
[19 Sep 01:43] <Eluvatar> http://s2.invisionfree.invalid/The_North_Pacific/index.php?showtopic=4720
[19 Sep 01:43] <Eluvatar> True
[19 Sep 01:43] <Limi> which makes it an awkward run-on sentence
[19 Sep 01:44] <Eluvatar> that copy of the original Monster continues here: http://s2.invisionfree.invalid/The_North_Pacific/index.php?showtopic=4721
[19 Sep 01:44] * Kurosaki sees nothing wrong with illegal grammar copping.
[19 Sep 01:44] <Eluvatar> That is probably all right yes
[19 Sep 01:44] <Biyah> uh
[19 Sep 01:45] <Eluvatar> in any case, Limi and I plotted.
[19 Sep 01:45] <Kurosaki> That sounds suspiciously like Section 31, by the way.
[19 Sep 01:45] <Kurosaki> Correction:
[19 Sep 01:45] <Kurosaki> 'Article XIV, section 31'
[19 Sep 01:45] <Biyah> maybe it wasn't tnp. I think TWP had a sunshine law that allowed for grammar correction - as long as the admins let the government know about it after
[19 Sep 01:45] <Eluvatar> Soon came an election between Dalimbar and Emperor Matthuis
[19 Sep 01:45] <Biyah> and as long as it didnt, in any way, change how the law could be inturpreted
[19 Sep 01:45] <Naivetry> TNP is why I do not belief in using legislation to solve problems in government.
[19 Sep 01:45] <Eluvatar> Limi and I knew Dalimbar would coup TNP
[19 Sep 01:45] <Naivetry> believe*
[19 Sep 01:45] <Eluvatar> which we wanted.
[19 Sep 01:45] <Biyah> Hallelujah, Nai
[19 Sep 01:45] <Eluvatar> Limi: may I tell what we did?
[19 Sep 01:46] <Kurosaki> '...by which an unidentified investigative agency is given broad, unspecified discretionary power over unspecified general matters.'
[19 Sep 01:46] <Limi> go ahead
[19 Sep 01:46] <Eluvatar> I think we have before but.. eah
[19 Sep 01:46] <Naivetry> ooh, yes please.
[19 Sep 01:46] <Kurosaki> To quote a description given.
[19 Sep 01:46] <Eluvatar> observing that Emperor Matthuis was close behind the incumbent, Great Bights Mum, in endorsements
[19 Sep 01:46] <Eluvatar> -- he was gathering them full-tilt while GBM was allowing her level to fall, to make way to the winner of the election,
[19 Sep 01:47] <Eluvatar> Limi organized several nations to move in to endorse EM and make him Delegate, while the election was ongoing.
[19 Sep 01:47] <Eluvatar> Dalimbar then exploited this, and won the runoff in a landslide.
[19 Sep 01:47] <Limi> I was also running a campaign to endorse EM and unendorse GBM at the time
[19 Sep 01:47] <Eluvatar> Indeed, the scare was enough that the WPLF moved in to defend TNP from its own Vice Delegate.
[19 Sep 01:47] <Eluvatar> Ah indeed.
[19 Sep 01:47] <Limi> under the nation of Activini
[19 Sep 01:47] <Biyah> heh. heh heh
[19 Sep 01:47] <Eluvatar> (EM was the incumbent Vice Deleate)
[19 Sep 01:48] <Eluvatar> so Dali was elected Delegate
[19 Sep 01:48] <Eluvatar> and Zemnaya svoboda was elected Vice Delegate
[19 Sep 01:48] <Goobergunch> WPLF being West Pacific Liberation Force, the old military of the West Pacific.
[19 Sep 01:48] <Eluvatar> IN the mean time, Eluvatar was soon allowed to join the Regional Assembly.
[19 Sep 01:48] * Biyah loved the WPLF
[19 Sep 01:48] <Biyah> highest I ever ranked in a standard military
[19 Sep 01:48] <Eluvatar> Here follows a slightly tragic story of plotters messing up and working at cross-purposes
[19 Sep 01:49] <Eluvatar> Dalimbar, it turns out, had been sent in by the new NPO
[19 Sep 01:49] <Eluvatar> But he decided to go independent
[19 Sep 01:49] <Limi> I forget if I was a member of the NPO at that time or not
[19 Sep 01:49] <Eluvatar> however that new NPO, knowing of Limi and my plotting, told him of them, in a confrontational manner
[19 Sep 01:50] <Eluvatar> I believe they actually ordered him to eject Zemnaya Svoboda, of all the silly things
[19 Sep 01:50] <Eluvatar> So then I explained that we wanted to help him coup the region
[19 Sep 01:50] <Eluvatar> And explained how I wanted to help build a new democracy XD
[19 Sep 01:50] <Eluvatar> And Dalimbar nodded and smiled, smiled and nodded
[19 Sep 01:50] <Eluvatar> by which I mean he was noncommital
[19 Sep 01:50] <Biyah> he's good at that
[19 Sep 01:51] <Naivetry> very...
[19 Sep 01:51] <Biyah> great frontman for our efforts.
[19 Sep 01:51] <Naivetry> it's a skill you pick up or you don't last long.
[19 Sep 01:51] <Biyah> mmhmm
[19 Sep 01:51] <Eluvatar> I made the mistake of not telling Dalimbar that Zemnaya Svoboda wasn't simply working with me, but my nation
[19 Sep 01:51] <Kurosaki> You believe in democracy?
[19 Sep 01:51] <Eluvatar> I do.
[19 Sep 01:51] <Kurosaki> Intriguing.
[19 Sep 01:51] <Eluvatar> It's the worst system except all the others.
[19 Sep 01:51] <Eluvatar> to butcher Churchill
[19 Sep 01:51] <Naivetry> ^ amen.
[19 Sep 01:51] * Kurosaki might disagree.
[19 Sep 01:52] <Eluvatar> I feared that telling Dalimbar would give him the ability to get me kicked out
[19 Sep 01:52] <Kurosaki> There's an older system that's still going strong, after 20,000 years.
[19 Sep 01:52] <Kurosaki> But I digress.
[19 Sep 01:52] <Eluvatar> so I compromised, telling him enough to probably kick me anyway, but not enough to get trust
[19 Sep 01:52] <Eluvatar> Brilliant, eh?
[19 Sep 01:52] <Naivetry> What democracy has going for it, actually, is not idealism... but truth. that all government rests, in the end, on the consensus of the people.
[19 Sep 01:52] <Eluvatar> So then he didn't back Zemnaya Svoboda for reelection as Vice Delegate
[19 Sep 01:52] <Eluvatar> ++Nai
[19 Sep 01:53] <Eluvatar> Although Nationstates can make it unusually easy to fight the consensus as leader
[19 Sep 01:53] <Naivetry> and then it's just a matter of how you choose to obtain that consensus. democracy is the simplest.
[19 Sep 01:53] <Kurosaki> It is also susceptible to demagoguery.
[19 Sep 01:53] <Biyah> mmhmm
[19 Sep 01:53] <Naivetry> oh yes.
[19 Sep 01:53] * Kurosaki has his own spelling for that word.
[19 Sep 01:53] <Eluvatar> That's true of humans, not nationstates nations
[19 Sep 01:53] <Naivetry> which is also why people like us like it, I suspect.
[19 Sep 01:53] <r3n> Kurasaki, what's the other system?
[19 Sep 01:53] <Eluvatar> *not just
[19 Sep 01:53] <Goobergunch> In NationStates, you have a bit more... freedom to select the people that form the consensus.
[19 Sep 01:53] <r3n> anarchy?
[19 Sep 01:53] <Eluvatar> Ye-es
[19 Sep 01:54] <Eluvatar> However, Upper Kirby was elected Prime Minister
[19 Sep 01:54] <Eluvatar> and Eluvatar was elected Speaker
[19 Sep 01:54] <Kurosaki> It's had a lot of names.
[19 Sep 01:54] <Eluvatar> However, working at cross purposes,
[19 Sep 01:54] <Eluvatar> Upper Kirby = Mammothistan = Great Bight
[19 Sep 01:54] <Kurosaki> So I'll go with one. Althing.
[19 Sep 01:54] <Eluvatar> This was not known at the time, however
[19 Sep 01:54] <r3n> (*Kurosaki, sorry for misspelling your name)
[19 Sep 01:54] <Eluvatar> Dalimbar eventually did pull a coup d'etat
[19 Sep 01:54] <Biyah> 12:53.32am <@Naivetry> which is also why people like us like it, I suspect.
[19 Sep 01:54] <Kurosaki> (I didn't even notice.)
[19 Sep 01:54] <Biyah> oh, yes
[19 Sep 01:54] <Eluvatar> declaring the government needed chanigng and he wasn't following the constitution anymore.
[19 Sep 01:55] <Eluvatar> Upper Kirby's response was, ah, surprisingly mild
[19 Sep 01:55] <Eluvatar> Perhaps because he was a co-conspirator.
[19 Sep 01:55] <Eluvatar> I do suspect that if I'd done things better, Dalimbar could have used me in my positions as Speaker and Security Council member.
[19 Sep 01:55] <Eluvatar> But Dalimbar eventually lost steam, trying to be popular and keep power at the same time.
[19 Sep 01:56] <Eluvatar> He had to ask Gatesville, a large region, NOT to intervene on his behalf.
[19 Sep 01:56] <Goobergunch> Demagoguery is such an ugly word. I prefer "explanation".
[19 Sep 01:56] <Eluvatar> At the end of his delegacy he ejected Emperor Matthuis, who was trying to take the delegacy, and allowed Great Bights Mum to take the delegacy.
[19 Sep 01:56] <Eluvatar> TNP kept on going for a big on fumes,
[19 Sep 01:57] <Eluvatar> *bit
[19 Sep 01:57] <Eluvatar> But Emperor matthuis soon came back and swapped his way into the Delegacy.
[19 Sep 01:57] <Naivetry> Kuro - in the loose terminology of NS, I'd call Althing a democratic system.
[19 Sep 01:57] <Naivetry> Goobers <3
[19 Sep 01:58] <Eluvatar> After a brief fight, Emperor Matthuis copied taijitu's summer 2007 act of ejecting hundreds of his own endorsers and moving in to the Rejected Realms himself to seize the Delegacy.
[19 Sep 01:58] <Eluvatar> Gatesville, thus duped into backing his capture of the RR, was not pleased.
[19 Sep 01:58] <r3n> Demagoguery is such a nice word, but I am biased.
[19 Sep 01:58] <Eluvatar> After this shock, TNP realized it needed reform, and adopted a new, shorter Constitution.
[19 Sep 01:59] <Durkadurkiranistan> then it continued to be couped over and over again since then
[19 Sep 01:59] <Eluvatar> However, Lewis and Clark (Westwind of Equilism) attaining the Delegacy, felt he needed more power
[19 Sep 01:59] <Goobergunch> "shorter"
[19 Sep 01:59] <Eluvatar> Goobergunch: much shorter!
[19 Sep 01:59] <Eluvatar> read it
[19 Sep 01:59] <Eluvatar> It's been enlengthened a bit from its original adoption of course.
[19 Sep 01:59] <Goobergunch> TNP law is still a cesspit
[19 Sep 02:00] <Kurosaki> I would call it Tribal Council.
[19 Sep 02:00] <Eluvatar> That's more the Legal Code now than the Constitution, mainly
[19 Sep 02:00] <Kurosaki> Clans, not citizens, electing representatives.
[19 Sep 02:00] <Eluvatar> And the Court Rules are awful.
[19 Sep 02:00] <Eluvatar> where do you come up with the clans in NS?
[19 Sep 02:00] <Goobergunch> Kurosaki: That kind of sounds like the old ADN Charter.
[19 Sep 02:00] <Kurosaki> That would take a long time to explain, actually.
[19 Sep 02:00] <Goobergunch> At least in theory.
[19 Sep 02:01] <Kurosaki> As it actually cannot function without charisma.
[19 Sep 02:01] <Goobergunch> (i.e. an interregional system with delegates appointed by each region)
[19 Sep 02:01] <r3n> It could also be seen as similar to the system of Equinox and Lemuria
[19 Sep 02:01] <r3n> at the regional level
[19 Sep 02:01] <Eluvatar> So Lewis and Clark, annoyed perhaps that the admins were not kowtowing to his every whim, allegedly annoyed that there was resistance to some of the sweeping changes he wished to make, went and did what some had worried he would do and pulled another coup d'etat
[19 Sep 02:01] <Eluvatar> He made a new forum and organized a Crimson Court on it
[19 Sep 02:01] <Eluvatar> in opposition to the Blue forum, I suppose.
[19 Sep 02:02] <Durkadurkiranistan> the CO forum was also blue
[19 Sep 02:02] <r3n> lol
[19 Sep 02:02] <Eluvatar> really?
[19 Sep 02:02] <Durkadurkiranistan> dark blue I think
[19 Sep 02:02] <Eluvatar> don't think so
[19 Sep 02:02] * Kurosaki begins founding a political theory, based on all this.
[19 Sep 02:02] <Naivetry> well, let's be honest... West wanted to be delegate, and he wanted to be delegate so he could stir things up, one way or another. he knew that was probably not going to happen without a fight from the locals in TNP... and that's what he got.
[19 Sep 02:02] <Kurosaki> *Yet continues listening.*
[19 Sep 02:02] * Biyah nods
[19 Sep 02:02] <Naivetry> the intention was never "coup TNP!"
[19 Sep 02:03] <Naivetry> but the personalities involved made it sort of inevitable.
[19 Sep 02:03] <Durkadurkiranistan> my intention was definitely 'coup TNP' tho
[19 Sep 02:03] <Naivetry> given what he wanted to do.
[19 Sep 02:03] <Durkadurkiranistan> yea
[19 Sep 02:04] <Eluvatar> nevermind the colour
[19 Sep 02:04] <Durkadurkiranistan> color*
[19 Sep 02:04] <Biyah> mmhmm
[19 Sep 02:04] <Kurosaki> Do people take offense, here, if you PM them unannounced?
[19 Sep 02:04] <Eluvatar> Lewis and Clark ordered the Equilism Army to support him
[19 Sep 02:04] * Kurosaki has been to other places where they get up in arms.
[19 Sep 02:04] <Eluvatar> and got Gatesville to support him as well
[19 Sep 02:04] <Durkadurkiranistan> no Kurosaki
[19 Sep 02:04] <Naivetry> ...after election, before forum change.
[19 Sep 02:04] <Naivetry> that really was just a delegacy transfer.
[19 Sep 02:04] <Eluvatar> and yet nevertheless he was forced to eject native endorsers of Great Bights Mum to keep the delegacy
[19 Sep 02:04] <Naivetry> (The E-Army part)
[19 Sep 02:04] <Naivetry> he was annoyed that GBM wasn't doing anything to drop endorsements.
[19 Sep 02:05] <Eluvatar> I remember the E-Army supporting him during the civil war later as well
[19 Sep 02:05] <Durkadurkiranistan> just a coincidince
[19 Sep 02:05] <Naivetry> yeah, we just hung around. defended all through that, too, though. it was rather low priority.
[19 Sep 02:05] <Eluvatar> TNP usual tradition is that, for the sake of security, the incumbent does not actively reduc endorsements
[19 Sep 02:05] <Eluvatar> just stops gathering them.
[19 Sep 02:05] <Durkadurkiranistan> coincidence*
[19 Sep 02:05] <Eluvatar> ANYWHO
[19 Sep 02:06] <Naivetry> Durk, this is no-spin history.
[19 Sep 02:06] <Eluvatar> I came back to activity around then,
[19 Sep 02:06] <Eluvatar> and asked Limi what was up
[19 Sep 02:06] <Durkadurkiranistan> I miss WW
[19 Sep 02:06] <Eluvatar> Limi pointed out that L&C was held in power by Gatesville and thus beholden to them
[19 Sep 02:06] <Eluvatar> so I as ZS approached the resistance
[19 Sep 02:06] <Eluvatar> quietly telling them I Eluvatar had been ZS all along, I partook in an endorsement gathering and unendorsement campaign against Lewis and Clark
[19 Sep 02:07] <Eluvatar> it came to the point where he had to constantly eject every update
[19 Sep 02:07] <Eluvatar> This wears a man down.
[19 Sep 02:07] <Eluvatar> L&C attempted to save face by having us agree to make TAO delegate
[19 Sep 02:07] <Eluvatar> But that would have been... odd
[19 Sep 02:07] <Durkadurkiranistan> LOL really? never heard that
[19 Sep 02:07] <Biyah> TAO <3
[19 Sep 02:07] <Eluvatar> Pretty much.
[19 Sep 02:07] <Eluvatar> TNP was all, TAO who?
[19 Sep 02:08] <Eluvatar> So then we negotiated with Gatesville
[19 Sep 02:08] <Kurosaki> TAO = ?, again?
[19 Sep 02:08] <Eluvatar> and Gatesville, fed up with sitting put for so long, withdrew in exchange for a peace treaty
[19 Sep 02:08] <Eluvatar> A notable WEst Pacifican
[19 Sep 02:08] <Biyah> one of me bestest buddies and conspirators
[19 Sep 02:08] <Kurosaki> I see.
[19 Sep 02:08] <Biyah> also known as Lawn Flamingo, used to be a decent recruiter for invaders
[19 Sep 02:08] <Durkadurkiranistan> Gatesville totally shafted us
[19 Sep 02:08] <Eluvatar> So then L&C, seeing the jig was basically up, resigned
[19 Sep 02:09] <Naivetry> he'd been having RL issues for a month or two before that, though.
[19 Sep 02:09] <Eluvatar> and, in a measure of friendliness, ejected the total unknown who's name I forget but who was abbreviated CC
[19 Sep 02:09] <Eluvatar> who probably would have given TNP /another/ new government
[19 Sep 02:09] <Naivetry> one of them involved getting the power cut at his house, which is rather inconvenient for watching at updates.
[19 Sep 02:09] <Eluvatar> Mh
[19 Sep 02:09] <Eluvatar> I think he shared control with someone? maybe?
[19 Sep 02:09] <Eluvatar> Dunno.
[19 Sep 02:10] <Naivetry> towards the end when that happened, I think.
[19 Sep 02:10] <Eluvatar> Point is, TNP ingloriously won that war of attrition.
[19 Sep 02:10] <Naivetry> but that's never very sustainable.
[19 Sep 02:10] <Eluvatar> Through persistence.
[19 Sep 02:10] <Eluvatar> We had hundreds of natives of reserves.
[19 Sep 02:10] * Kurosaki wonders if it has since become fashion to ring in a new member by having them found their own North Pacific government.
[19 Sep 02:10] <Durkadurkiranistan> we were going to try to get him to hand over to one of us IIRC
[19 Sep 02:10] <Naivetry> and a bit of luck in not having West at full power.
[19 Sep 02:10] <Eluvatar> He burned through a good few, but didn't have the Influence do do a massive purge.
[19 Sep 02:10] <Goobergunch> Off-topic question: Is there a way I can tell Zetaboards to e-mail me when I get a PM?
[19 Sep 02:10] <Eluvatar>
[19 Sep 02:10] <Eluvatar> Um, no clue.
[19 Sep 02:10] <Goobergunch> I've been missing PMs and it annoys me.
[19 Sep 02:11] <Eluvatar> yeah.
[19 Sep 02:11] <Kurosaki> Just thinking that at this pace, there have to be 470 NP govs.
[19 Sep 02:11] <Eluvatar> There have been...
[19 Sep 02:11] <Durkadurkiranistan> yup
[19 Sep 02:11] <Durkadurkiranistan> 10 at least
[19 Sep 02:11] <Eluvatar> let's count forums.
[19 Sep 02:11] <Limi> I blame Gross
[19 Sep 02:11] * Kurosaki puts in unofficial motion for NP to be renamed Scatterbrained Fruitcakes, in these people's honor.
[19 Sep 02:11] <Biyah> LOL
[19 Sep 02:11] <Limi> he tends to be a constant in all this >_>
[19 Sep 02:12] <Naivetry> ...let's not count forums and say we did?
[19 Sep 02:12] <Eluvatar> 8 official forums
[19 Sep 02:12] <Eluvatar> D:
[19 Sep 02:12] <Eluvatar> hey
[19 Sep 02:12] <Eluvatar> the East Pacific got taken over once
[19 Sep 02:12] <Eluvatar> and the West Pacific had a couple coups
[19 Sep 02:12] <Durkadurkiranistan> old blue, new blue, Stars, ALSO, NPD, Dali, CO, and mine
[19 Sep 02:12] <Goobergunch> It was always fun when there were multiple TNP forums at once.
[19 Sep 02:12] <Durkadurkiranistan> so yeah 8 forums
[19 Sep 02:12] <Eluvatar> Stars was never official
[19 Sep 02:12] <Goobergunch> So much to check.
[19 Sep 02:12] <Durkadurkiranistan> oh yeah and NPG
[19 Sep 02:13] <Durkadurkiranistan> I enjoyed my forums the most
[19 Sep 02:13] <Durkadurkiranistan> was going for a Chinese Cultural Revolution theme
[19 Sep 02:13] <Eluvatar> old blue, ALSO, NPD, NPG, s11, dali's, Crimson, and JAL's yes

Part three in next post.

 

[Eluvatar]

Spoiler: Log part 3

[19 Sep 02:13] <Biyah> Stars
[19 Sep 02:13] <Durkadurkiranistan> since the point of my regime was population control. one child policy etc >_>
[19 Sep 02:13] * Kurosaki remembers the original Cultural Revolution, as well.
[19 Sep 02:14] <Eluvatar> I need to finish my history >_<
[19 Sep 02:14] * Kurosaki then starts pounding it with a sledgehammer.
[19 Sep 02:14] <Kurosaki> Oh, still listening.
[19 Sep 02:14] <Eluvatar> So that settled L&C.
[19 Sep 02:14] <Kurosaki> I always listen.
[19 Sep 02:14] <Eluvatar> Soon, TNP held elections and, having publicly told the story of myself and ZS, I ran for Delegate
[19 Sep 02:14] <Kurosaki> Always.
[19 Sep 02:14] <Eluvatar> using ZS as my TNP nation.
[19 Sep 02:14] <Eluvatar> I won.
[19 Sep 02:14] <Durkadurkiranistan> fortunately Erm lost
[19 Sep 02:14] <Durkadurkiranistan> he would have been couped
[19 Sep 02:14] <Eluvatar> For three months I was Delegate, and I was faced with Interesting Times
[19 Sep 02:14] <Durkadurkiranistan> he was even easier than Harm to coup
[19 Sep 02:14] <Durkadurkiranistan> >_>
[19 Sep 02:14] <Eluvatar> Durkadurkiranistan: yeah... probably.
[19 Sep 02:15] <Eluvatar> You see, that was the time of The Empire
[19 Sep 02:15] <Eluvatar> when Neenee and others couped the East Pacific
[19 Sep 02:15] <Eluvatar> under pseudonyms.
[19 Sep 02:15] <Durkadurkiranistan> three years ago o_o
[19 Sep 02:15] <Eluvatar> After having quietly enlisted my assistance in the capture
[19 Sep 02:15] <Biyah> ... yeah
[19 Sep 02:15] <Kurosaki> Sounds like a fine biography, btw.
[19 Sep 02:15] <Eluvatar> They then proceeded, well Biyah proceeded as Lord Rahl,
[19 Sep 02:15] <Kurosaki> "Interesting Times"
[19 Sep 02:15] <Naivetry>
[19 Sep 02:15] <Naivetry> Yours too?
[19 Sep 02:15] <Eluvatar> to effectively Declare War on, well, every region.
[19 Sep 02:15] <Naivetry> hee hee
[19 Sep 02:15] <Eluvatar> Yes.
[19 Sep 02:15] * Naivetry giggles
[19 Sep 02:16] <Biyah> ... just the feeders
[19 Sep 02:16] <Eluvatar> I was in, as they say, a pickle.
[19 Sep 02:16] <Naivetry> that whole conversation with Loop...
[19 Sep 02:16] <Eluvatar> *of note.
[19 Sep 02:16] <Biyah> hehehehehe
[19 Sep 02:16] * Naivetry laughs and laughs
[19 Sep 02:16] * Biyah loved playing with Loop - and the Carbonari
[19 Sep 02:16] <Biyah> ... and Elu and Flem
[19 Sep 02:16] <Eluvatar> So then, I had little choice but to assist efforts against the Empire.
[19 Sep 02:16] <Eluvatar> And yes Loop pulled me into The Carbonari, another place with pseudonyms
[19 Sep 02:16] <Eluvatar> and Biyah was there
[19 Sep 02:16] <Naivetry> no, no, this was me and Elu apparently on our own, talking to Loop and 'mediating', early on.
[19 Sep 02:16] <Eluvatar> as no one knew he was Lord Rahl
[19 Sep 02:16] <Eluvatar>
[19 Sep 02:16] <Naivetry> don't think I told you about it.
[19 Sep 02:17] <Eluvatar> I wanted Loop to make peace with the Empire, I really did
[19 Sep 02:17] <Biyah> ...
[19 Sep 02:17] <Biyah> tell!
[19 Sep 02:17] <Eluvatar> but then the Empire basically declared war on me
[19 Sep 02:17] <Naivetry> yeah, would've been nice.
[19 Sep 02:17] <Eluvatar> so... um...
[19 Sep 02:17] <Biyah> well, no
[19 Sep 02:17] <Biyah> Gatesville declared war on you
[19 Sep 02:17] <Eluvatar> I had the problem that my constituency was foaming at the mouth
[19 Sep 02:17] <Biyah> we had to follow suit
[19 Sep 02:17] <Eluvatar> no I mean the Lord Rahl ipening statement
[19 Sep 02:17] <Eluvatar> *opening
[19 Sep 02:17] <Biyah> oh yes, that one
[19 Sep 02:17] <Eluvatar> where his first post in my forum was bow down or be made to bow down, basically
[19 Sep 02:18] <Eluvatar> So then Flem and Khark (ministers in my government) went to help the East
[19 Sep 02:18] <Biyah> and that caused the war
[19 Sep 02:18] <Eluvatar> while I quietly discussed the possibility of helping, but did not yet help.
[19 Sep 02:18] <Naivetry> which was a disaster.
[19 Sep 02:18] <Eluvatar> I think.
[19 Sep 02:18] <Biyah> we had agents of TNP in TEP
[19 Sep 02:18] <Eluvatar> So then Gatesville declared war.
[19 Sep 02:18] <Eluvatar> Flemingovia wasn't ordered into TEP by me
[19 Sep 02:18] <Naivetry> but predictable... I mean, it was flem.
[19 Sep 02:18] <Kurosaki> Joy.
[19 Sep 02:18] <Eluvatar> Right.
[19 Sep 02:18] <Biyah> yup
[19 Sep 02:18] <Limi> I think I remember having to deal with The Empire to a small extent running security for TWP
[19 Sep 02:18] <Eluvatar> Well, I had Heft write up a nic estatement.
[19 Sep 02:18] <Eluvatar> yeah
[19 Sep 02:18] <Biyah> not only was it flem, but I was in a position of power... and it was flem
[19 Sep 02:19] <Biyah> flem doesnt like me
[19 Sep 02:19] <Eluvatar> the West was rather annoyed that people were saying the Empire was West Pacifican
[19 Sep 02:19] <Eluvatar> But it basically was
[19 Sep 02:19] <Biyah> not really
[19 Sep 02:19] <Biyah> I was looong out of TWP
[19 Sep 02:19] <Biyah> so was Nee
[19 Sep 02:19] <Biyah> Dali was barely ever TWP
[19 Sep 02:19] <Eluvatar> Around this time, the Azure Alliance was declared, between TNP, The Pacific, the South pacific, and Taijitu
[19 Sep 02:19] <Eluvatar> people had fun calling it a World War
[19 Sep 02:19] <Biyah> it would have been more fair to say it was Equilism, but even that isn't true
[19 Sep 02:19] <Limi> I think I had a new player decide to try and spy on you on their own
[19 Sep 02:19] <Eluvatar> as Gatesville declared war on TNP, the Pacific, and Taijitu as I recall
[19 Sep 02:19] <Eluvatar> possibly not in that order
[19 Sep 02:19] <Kurosaki> Azure...
[19 Sep 02:19] <Naivetry> no, you all mostly joined Equilism while you were plotting the Empire...
[19 Sep 02:20] <Biyah> yeah. And then we declared against TNP, and everyone else and their alliances joined in
[19 Sep 02:20] <Eluvatar> and Gatesville got the Empire and "The New Inquisition" to declare war on TNP
[19 Sep 02:20] <Limi> GV's war against Taijitu was over TRR invasion
[19 Sep 02:20] <Biyah> no, we didnt start plotting in earnest until just after we were in Equilism
[19 Sep 02:20] <Eluvatar> Limi: how many months later!?
[19 Sep 02:20] <Biyah> joining it brought us together again, and made us start plotting
[19 Sep 02:20] <Limi> I'm not sure
[19 Sep 02:20] <Eluvatar> So in any case, with war on, I proceeded to give what assistance I could to the opposition.
[19 Sep 02:20] <Naivetry> mmm, don't think so. there was the first phase plotting, remember.
[19 Sep 02:21] <Eluvatar> Eventually, the Empire kind of folded in on itself, I think.
[19 Sep 02:21] <Biyah> we were always first phase plotting, just talking
[19 Sep 02:21] <r3n> Quick question: what was the Carbonari? I don't have any recollection of that
[19 Sep 02:21] <Biyah> Nee got sick, I got busy
[19 Sep 02:21] <Eluvatar> and a new East Pacific was formed, with a new constitutional convention
[19 Sep 02:21] <Biyah> my fun was in playing with the defenders
[19 Sep 02:21] <Eluvatar> Carbonari was a forum created, I believe originally by Thel
[19 Sep 02:21] <Eluvatar> where all had to use psesudonyms
[19 Sep 02:21] <Biyah> yup
[19 Sep 02:21] <Eluvatar> and it was at times used for plotting
[19 Sep 02:21] <r3n> I see, thanks
[19 Sep 02:21] <Eluvatar> Loop tried to use it to plot resistance
[19 Sep 02:21] <Limi> GV declaring war on TP was a multistage affair stemming from Moo outing Lots of Ants and my participation in the NPO and Taijitu bothering Gates and Gates' general need to declare war
[19 Sep 02:22] <Eluvatar> right.
[19 Sep 02:22] <Eluvatar> Lots of Ants had been a Gatesville Agent
[19 Sep 02:22] <Eluvatar> who had become tWP Delegate.
[19 Sep 02:22] <Biyah> always was
[19 Sep 02:22] <Biyah> TAO and I knew it, and watched
[19 Sep 02:22] <Eluvatar> Biyah: LoA isn't active *now*
[19 Sep 02:22] <Biyah> I know
[19 Sep 02:22] <Biyah> I meant, from the start of TWPO
[19 Sep 02:22] <Biyah> TWP
[19 Sep 02:22] <Eluvatar> So then, I was slightly fatigued
[19 Sep 02:22] <Eluvatar> and decided to stand down and let Tresville become Delegate
[19 Sep 02:22] <Eluvatar> This was before teh Empire actually collapsed.
[19 Sep 02:23] <Eluvatar> Tresville, for whatever reason, decided his number one priority would be to make peace with the Empire and Gatesville
[19 Sep 02:23] <Kurosaki> I would've asked, if not for that 'for whatever reason'.
[19 Sep 02:23] <Eluvatar> Not really sure
[19 Sep 02:24] <Eluvatar> I think he was a bit worried what Gatesville might try
[19 Sep 02:24] <Eluvatar> Honestly though given the activity Tresville was maintaining, and I was prepared to maintain as Vice Delegate,
[19 Sep 02:24] <Eluvatar> we would have been fine
[19 Sep 02:24] <Eluvatar> I think Tresville may have wanted peace for the community value
[19 Sep 02:24] <Durkadurkiranistan> the better way to take over TNP is to seize control of the RA anyway
[19 Sep 02:24] <Durkadurkiranistan> by infiltrating it
[19 Sep 02:25] <Naivetry> Tresville plotted some, but he mostly seemed to do it on his own, from what I've seen... which doesn't work well.
[19 Sep 02:25] <Eluvatar> not realizing that the peaceloving North Pacificans had been burned out by Great Bight and/or pixiedance
[19 Sep 02:25] <Eluvatar> a long time ago
[19 Sep 02:25] <Durkadurkiranistan> plotting alone works well if your goal is just to purge
[19 Sep 02:25] <Eluvatar> I therefore surmised that the way to keep TNP active was to supply the bread and butter of the remaining community -- conflict
[19 Sep 02:25] <Durkadurkiranistan> but to sustain a coup requires more cooperation
[19 Sep 02:25] <Goobergunch> But since Influence, it's really hard to just purge
[19 Sep 02:25] <Biyah> not so much
[19 Sep 02:25] <Durkadurkiranistan> lol I did it with Minnow influence
[19 Sep 02:26] <Eluvatar> Hundreds of endorsements ->
[19 Sep 02:26] <Eluvatar> you can eject hundreds of non-WA nations
[19 Sep 02:26] <Goobergunch> Sure.
[19 Sep 02:26] <Eluvatar> basically
[19 Sep 02:26] <Eluvatar> it's not linear but whatever
[19 Sep 02:26] <Goobergunch> But you can't just completely take over like, say, Francos did.
[19 Sep 02:26] <Kurosaki> RA, again?
[19 Sep 02:26] <Durkadurkiranistan> Regional Assembly
[19 Sep 02:26] <Durkadurkiranistan> it's the legislative body that elects delegates
[19 Sep 02:27] <Kurosaki> K.
[19 Sep 02:27] <Durkadurkiranistan> infiltrate the RA, and TNP is your oyster
[19 Sep 02:27] <Durkadurkiranistan> lol
[19 Sep 02:27] <Eluvatar>
[19 Sep 02:27] <Durkadurkiranistan> not that I would ever do such a thing
[19 Sep 02:27] <Limi> its easy to join, just have a nation in TNP and take an oath
[19 Sep 02:27] <Eluvatar> Yup
[19 Sep 02:27] <Durkadurkiranistan> yeah
[19 Sep 02:27] <Eluvatar> Just as long as you have no integrity
[19 Sep 02:27] <Eluvatar> it's trivial...
[19 Sep 02:27] <Durkadurkiranistan> yep
[19 Sep 02:27] <Durkadurkiranistan>
[19 Sep 02:27] <Goobergunch> (Influence was instituted on 11 April '06, if you're keeping score.)
[19 Sep 02:27] <Naivetry> it's democracy.
[19 Sep 02:27] <Limi> keep the nation alive, vote in every other one, and post once every 2 weeks and you stay
[19 Sep 02:27] <Eluvatar> of course I'm one to talk >_<
[19 Sep 02:28] <Eluvatar> After Tresville's delegacy I lost track
[19 Sep 02:28] <r3n> goes with the blue color
[19 Sep 02:28] <r3n> Sorry, that probably doesn't make sense to those not speaking Greek
[19 Sep 02:28] <r3n> i.e. everybody in this channel other than me
[19 Sep 02:28] <Eluvatar> but at some point JAL was elected delegate
[19 Sep 02:28] <Eluvatar> and at the end of his term he did a mass ejection
[19 Sep 02:28] <Eluvatar> and got his nation deleted by making his flag the seven dirty words
[19 Sep 02:28] <Durkadurkiranistan> I defeated Erastide LOL
[19 Sep 02:28] <Goobergunch> I have a screenshot, one sec
[19 Sep 02:28] <Eluvatar> no actual coup, per se, however
[19 Sep 02:28] <Durkadurkiranistan> she ran specifically to keep me out
[19 Sep 02:29] <Goobergunch> http://www.goobergunch.net/ns/durkadurkiranistan-carlin.png
[19 Sep 02:29] <Durkadurkiranistan> excellent Goob
[19 Sep 02:29] <Goobergunch> http://www.goobergunch.net/ns/durkadurkiranistan-deat.png
[19 Sep 02:29] <Durkadurkiranistan> my crowning achievement in this game
[19 Sep 02:29] <Limi> all downhill from there
[19 Sep 02:29] <Durkadurkiranistan> LOL
[19 Sep 02:30] <Eluvatar> So then New Kervoskia was Delegate for a bit
[19 Sep 02:30] <Eluvatar> nothing interesting happened
[19 Sep 02:30] <Eluvatar> Shoeless Joe seized the delegacy briefly
[19 Sep 02:30] <Durkadurkiranistan> Project Purge could have been better, but Equilism invaded
[19 Sep 02:30] <r3n> lol
[19 Sep 02:30] <Eluvatar> Ermarian took it back
[19 Sep 02:30] <Eluvatar> then Ermarian went inactive
[19 Sep 02:30] <Eluvatar> and Durkadurkiranistan II seized the delegacy
[19 Sep 02:30] <Eluvatar> tried couping
[19 Sep 02:30] <r3n> that was a good screenshot
[19 Sep 02:30] <Naivetry> well, you know. invading, defending, tomato, tomahto.
[19 Sep 02:30] <Eluvatar> but saw the writing on the wall and tried a purge
[19 Sep 02:30] <Durkadurkiranistan> it's hilarious they let me take TNP as Durk II
[19 Sep 02:30] <Eluvatar> hey, Dyr Nasad apparently nearly kept you out
[19 Sep 02:31] <Eluvatar> oh, Durkadurkiranistan is now on trial in TNP for that
[19 Sep 02:31] <Eluvatar> second coup, which was just under a year ago
[19 Sep 02:31] <Durkadurkiranistan> it's been too long. LOL
[19 Sep 02:31] <Eluvatar> Since then TNp has been boring except that Flemingovia apparently got pressured out
[19 Sep 02:31] <Limi> and he is just now being put on trial
[19 Sep 02:31] <Eluvatar> or got fed up
[19 Sep 02:31] <Eluvatar> Well, he's on trial in response to his RA application
[19 Sep 02:31] <Eluvatar> ... in which he pledged NOT to uphold the constitution
[19 Sep 02:31] <Durkadurkiranistan> LOL
[19 Sep 02:31] <Kurosaki> Not loading for some of us.
[19 Sep 02:32] <Durkadurkiranistan> that first oath I posted was the best
[19 Sep 02:32] <Limi> I plan on reapplying to the RA once this election finally ends >_>
[19 Sep 02:32] <Goobergunch> As a larger context note -- NationStates ceased to be hosted by Jolt/OMAC in February '09.
[19 Sep 02:33] <Eluvatar> Yes that was nice
[19 Sep 02:33] <Eluvatar> Jolt sucked.
[19 Sep 02:33] <Goobergunch> Before that, the game itself had been stagnant because most of the people with code access were working on NationStates 2.
[19 Sep 02:33] <Eluvatar> although the onsite PHPBB back in 2004 was slow as an osteoportic snail
[19 Sep 02:33] <Naivetry> at one of the lowest points in the game. that was kind of the beginning of the turn around, although we didn't really see it for a while.
[19 Sep 02:33] <Naivetry> (2009)
[19 Sep 02:33] <Biyah> mmhmm
[19 Sep 02:33] <Eluvatar> Yeah it's actually gotten a bit better, on average
[19 Sep 02:33] <Biyah> the original forum was bombarded
[19 Sep 02:34] <Biyah> so busy, always crashing
[19 Sep 02:34] <Goobergunch> But since NS2 turned into a giant pile of fail, NS went back to being indie and new features actually started getting added again.
[19 Sep 02:34] <Eluvatar> I went to my first offsite simply because it was unusable.
[19 Sep 02:34] <Eluvatar> So, any questions?
[19 Sep 02:35] <Naivetry> There'd been some discussion about NS2, and politics had come up - game changes, etc.
[19 Sep 02:35] <Anur-Sanur> I had one but I lost it
[19 Sep 02:35] <Naivetry> Kandy invited me to the new forum just before it went live, and I started out on my crusade to bring Gameplay as I knew it to the official forums.
[19 Sep 02:35] <Kurosaki> More than can be comprehended by human minds.
[19 Sep 02:35] <Eluvatar>
[19 Sep 02:35] * Goobergunch chuckles
[19 Sep 02:35] <Eluvatar> more recently there's been other conflicts
[19 Sep 02:35] * Kurosaki will ask them all.
[19 Sep 02:35] <Eluvatar> like the conflict between Gameplay and the WA Old Guard
[19 Sep 02:35] <Eluvatar> who HATED the Security Council
[19 Sep 02:35] <Durkadurkiranistan> that was hilarious
[19 Sep 02:35] <Anur-Sanur> Are you going to narrate the Devonitians coup to our new friend?
[19 Sep 02:35] <Naivetry> so I posted the first military guide, and the forum directory, maybe a couple of other vaguely self-defensively hostile pieces
[19 Sep 02:36] <Eluvatar> and wanted us dirty gameplayers to stay away from their pristine clean legislation
[19 Sep 02:36] <Goobergunch> As the freaking PREDECESSOR to the WA Old Guard, I found it even more hilarious.
[19 Sep 02:36] <Eluvatar>
[19 Sep 02:36] <Eluvatar> Kandarin tried to be a peacemaker
[19 Sep 02:36] <Eluvatar> but they didn't want peace
[19 Sep 02:36] <Naivetry> and during part of that, [violet] mentioned cleaning up some of the mess Influence had caused for gameplay by assigning judgment to the players in a way... through the WA.
[19 Sep 02:36] <Goobergunch> I used my WA ambassador (who's been around as a character since 2003) to laugh at them
[19 Sep 02:36] <Naivetry> Condemnations and Commendations came first, and caused an uproar.
[19 Sep 02:37] <Naivetry> Liberations were in the initial planning stages, when Belgium got invaded.
[19 Sep 02:37] <Naivetry> and that was the catalyst to get Liberations implemented sooner rather than later.
[19 Sep 02:38] <Naivetry> in between the old WA players complained about the new resolutions so much that we split it into two councils - General Assembly for the old stuff, Security Council for the new.
[19 Sep 02:38] <Goobergunch> I submitted "Liberate 'belgium'" within an hour of the feature going live.
[19 Sep 02:38] --> r3n joined the channel
[19 Sep 02:38] <Goobergunch> The campaign to get it to vote was not particularly difficult.
[19 Sep 02:38] <Naivetry> and got the queues separated, because they were complaining about how our resolutions were holding theirs up so they had to WAIT
[19 Sep 02:38] <Eluvatar> and then they complained more
[19 Sep 02:38] <Eluvatar> and got Rule 4 instituted
[19 Sep 02:39] <Eluvatar> curse the day it was promulgated and the ground its writer walks on
[19 Sep 02:39] <Eluvatar> >_>
[19 Sep 02:39] <Eluvatar>
[19 Sep 02:39] <Naivetry> the stuff up to the separation of the queue was mostly me and Kandy and Elu, with input from Goober, I think.
[19 Sep 02:39] <Naivetry> we had a little tag team going on there for a while.
[19 Sep 02:39] <Eluvatar> yeah
[19 Sep 02:39] <Eluvatar> I would post as Zemnaya Svoboda
[19 Sep 02:40] <Eluvatar> We weren't actually conspiring though, unlike them
[19 Sep 02:40] <Eluvatar> it turned out said WAOG had been conspiring at Antarctic Oasis's forum I believe
[19 Sep 02:40] <Goobergunch> Maybe? Might have been the UNOG forum proper
[19 Sep 02:40] <Naivetry> nope. we just had the same approach and pretty much identical views on a lot of things, so we took turns being polite to them.
[19 Sep 02:41] <Goobergunch> I don't remember
[19 Sep 02:41] <Eluvatar>
[19 Sep 02:41] <Eluvatar> Yes, we were polite
[19 Sep 02:41] <Eluvatar> while they were... not
[19 Sep 02:41] * Goobergunch should check, has access on UNOG
[19 Sep 02:41] <Naivetry> no.
[19 Sep 02:41] <Naivetry> not very, no.
[19 Sep 02:41] <Eluvatar> They were brusque *at best*
[19 Sep 02:41] <Eluvatar> sometimes outright flaming
[19 Sep 02:41] <Naivetry> mhm.
[19 Sep 02:41] <Eluvatar> Very tribal
[19 Sep 02:42] <Eluvatar> of course, we basically were tribal as well
[19 Sep 02:42] * Kurosaki smirks.
[19 Sep 02:42] <Kurosaki> So even without trying, that sort of system started developing.
[19 Sep 02:42] <Goobergunch> Which was weird to me, because I've always thought that Gameplay and WA play were basically sides of the same coin.
[19 Sep 02:42] <Kurosaki> Curious.
[19 Sep 02:42] <Eluvatar> but I do think we were not hostile to folks
[19 Sep 02:42] <Eluvatar> Goobergunch: they grew apart
[19 Sep 02:42] * Kurosaki does not yet know their definitions of 'gameplay'.
[19 Sep 02:42] <Naivetry> Goober - it took a wile for me to realize the connection. happened during the Crimson Order, actually.
[19 Sep 02:42] <Goobergunch> In theory, you could use Gameplay to dominate the WA. Practically it's a bit harder.
[19 Sep 02:42] <Naivetry> while*
[19 Sep 02:43] <Goobergunch> Elu: I know. But still.
[19 Sep 02:43] <Eluvatar> gameplay united can easily dominate it
[19 Sep 02:43] <Naivetry> I was watching the Crimson Order and West's deal with Gatesville, and I realized that they actually had a sort of power that no one else was interested in at the time.
[19 Sep 02:43] <Eluvatar> this was demonstrated well during the Bloc days
[19 Sep 02:43] <Eluvatar> Yes, they did
[19 Sep 02:43] <Eluvatar> only Gatesville cared back then
[19 Sep 02:43] <Eluvatar> it wanted to vote down all the UN resolutions
[19 Sep 02:43] <Naivetry> they traded us endorsements, and then newbie players would wake up and their resolution would have failed, and they wouldn't understand why
[19 Sep 02:43] <Naivetry> but it would be because Gatesville had plotted to support various feeder delegates in return for their vote in the WA
[19 Sep 02:44] <Eluvatar> I wonder what that WA (UN) Old Guard would do

Part four in next post.

 

[Eluvatar]

Spoiler: Log part 4

[19 Sep 02:44] <Eluvatar> *did
[19 Sep 02:44] <Eluvatar> TSP wasn't under their thrall though
[19 Sep 02:44] <Naivetry> and since no one of the politicians at that point really cared about the WA, that was an easy trade to make.
[19 Sep 02:44] <Eluvatar> And during the Empire War, TNP wasn't either
[19 Sep 02:44] <Eluvatar> and actually outside CO it never was committed to voting Gatesville's way
[19 Sep 02:45] * Kurosaki hates that.
[19 Sep 02:45] <Kurosaki> *Being DCed, that is.*
[19 Sep 02:45] <Eluvatar> ah
[19 Sep 02:45] <Kurosaki> Yeah, that entire history of description? I think it just got wiped out.
[19 Sep 02:46] <Kurosaki> On this comp.
[19 Sep 02:46] --- ChanServ changed mode: +o r3n
[19 Sep 02:46] <Naivetry> eh, we've got logs, someone can post.
[19 Sep 02:46] <Kurosaki> That would be one sh/tstorm of a log.
[19 Sep 02:46] <Goobergunch> Yeah. At this point, pretty much everybody logs.
[19 Sep 02:46] <Kurosaki> But thank you, for that eventuality.
[19 Sep 02:46] <Kurosaki> This client doesn't allow it, apparently.
[19 Sep 02:46] <Kurosaki> I'll have to use my normal one, later.
[19 Sep 02:47] * Goobergunch decides that his Thanksgiving project will be to go through his old computers and gank the logs that live on them
[19 Sep 02:47] <r3n> heh
[19 Sep 02:47] <Eluvatar> I can post it in TNP
[19 Sep 02:47] <Kurosaki> Alright.
[19 Sep 02:47] <r3n> Logs is among the first things I backup
[19 Sep 02:48] <Kurosaki> Hold, though. RL calls, in a demanding way.
[19 Sep 02:48] <Eluvatar> I log straight to a RAID 5 array
[19 Sep 02:48] <Goobergunch> If I am lucky, the 2004 logs are on one of them
[19 Sep 02:48] <Eluvatar> and occasionally back it up
[19 Sep 02:48] <r3n> I'd rather save my backup infrastructure for work stuff Elu
[19 Sep 02:48] <Eluvatar> Uh
[19 Sep 02:48] <r3n> but I do try to keep backups of logs and NS stuff periodically
[19 Sep 02:48] <Durkadurkiranistan> teh best logs were when defaultia came back for a while and posted lines between him and Lanna
[19 Sep 02:49] <Eluvatar> At my house we just have /home on that RAID 5
[19 Sep 02:49] <Biyah> ahhh, lanna
[19 Sep 02:49] <Durkadurkiranistan> apparently Lanna and deffy lurved each other
[19 Sep 02:49] <Eluvatar> so /home/myusername/bouncername/logs/...
[19 Sep 02:49] <Eluvatar> Kurosaki: so you actually lost the log?
[19 Sep 02:49] <r3n> I see. Doesn't this slow the whole thing down though?
[19 Sep 02:49] <r3n> I assume the drive is a network drive
[19 Sep 02:50] <Eluvatar> I'm running irssi on that same system
[19 Sep 02:50] <Eluvatar> the RAID 5 is in that server
[19 Sep 02:50] <Eluvatar> and latency from network is much more than latency of logging could ever be
[19 Sep 02:50] <r3n> OK
[19 Sep 02:50] <r3n> No, my understanding was that you were running the client locally
[19 Sep 02:51] <r3n> and it was saving on the network drive
[19 Sep 02:51] <r3n> hence I asked
[19 Sep 02:51] <Durkadurkiranistan> very interesting
...
[19 Sep 02:51] <Durkadurkiranistan> anyways I miss Lanna
[19 Sep 02:51] <Eluvatar> Available Soon! This name was used by a former nation, but will become available for re-use in in 19 days.
...
[19 Sep 02:53] <Durkadurkiranistan> also I miss defaultia
[19 Sep 02:53] <Durkadurkiranistan> I was impressed at how he had grown up lol
[19 Sep 02:54] <Biyah> yup
[19 Sep 02:54] * Goobergunch actually checked Posky and InfernoIce too
[19 Sep 02:54] <Biyah> I also miss JAL. He was such an immature little twerp once...
[19 Sep 02:54] <Biyah> oh, wait. Hi Durk.
[19 Sep 02:54] <Durkadurkiranistan> LOL
[19 Sep 02:54] <Durkadurkiranistan> hello
[19 Sep 02:54] <Goobergunch> Damn, Thedoc only had 1.192 billion
[19 Sep 02:54] <Durkadurkiranistan> still an immature little twerp
[19 Sep 02:55] <Biyah> I remember him saying he was of age - and the collective facepalms of the PRP and Nasi
[19 Sep 02:55] <Durkadurkiranistan> LOL
[19 Sep 02:55] <r3n> lol
[19 Sep 02:55] * Goobergunch snickers
[19 Sep 02:55] <Durkadurkiranistan> there were so many obnoxious teens back then though
[19 Sep 02:55] <Durkadurkiranistan> we had our own clique
[19 Sep 02:55] <r3n> I don't think that's exclusive to back then
[19 Sep 02:56] <Durkadurkiranistan> LOL true
[19 Sep 02:56] <Durkadurkiranistan> they are even worse now
[19 Sep 02:56] <Biyah> yeah
[19 Sep 02:56] <Goobergunch> It's funny now, though, because now the original obnoxious teens have grown up and mock the new ones
[19 Sep 02:56] <Biyah> I was convinced that there were only 10 people in the whole game over the age of 20
[19 Sep 02:56] <Biyah> ... now I feel old
[19 Sep 02:57] <Eluvatar> lool
[19 Sep 02:57] <Biyah> I was 23 when I started. No, 22, my birthday hadn't hit yet
[19 Sep 02:57] <r3n> It would be interesting to do a survey on the ages people are when joining NS
[19 Sep 02:57] <Eluvatar> I'm 22 now, Biyah
[19 Sep 02:57] * Biyah hangs his head
[19 Sep 02:57] <Goobergunch> I was 15... started a month before my birthday
[19 Sep 02:57] <r3n> I was 19
[19 Sep 02:57] <Durkadurkiranistan> I was 16
[19 Sep 02:58] <Naivetry> 22. So not really a better player than anybody, just older.
[19 Sep 02:58] <r3n> No actually 18, as it was before my 19th birthday
[19 Sep 02:58] <Biyah> depends on how you look at it.
[19 Sep 02:58] <Biyah> Ivan is older than I am
[19 Sep 02:58] <Biyah> so is Gates
[19 Sep 02:58] <Biyah> those were my two primary enemies
[19 Sep 02:59] <Durkadurkiranistan> older players are generally better
[19 Sep 03:00] <Durkadurkiranistan> few teens ended up successful. although Francos was a teen
[19 Sep 03:00] <Biyah> those that like the format and stick with it for more than 10 days tend to excell
[19 Sep 03:00] <Biyah> excel
[19 Sep 03:00] <Biyah> whatever
[19 Sep 03:00] <Eluvatar> Gaspo wasn't old
[19 Sep 03:00] <Biyah> Gaspo was 15
[19 Sep 03:00] <Durkadurkiranistan> yeah
[19 Sep 03:00] <Eluvatar> but I suppose Gaspo was more a worker than a ruler
[19 Sep 03:00] <Biyah> yes
[19 Sep 03:00] <Biyah> Taria/Asta was the same age
[19 Sep 03:00] * Biyah thinks
[19 Sep 03:00] <Eluvatar> Seriously
[19 Sep 03:00] <Biyah> Pope is my age
[19 Sep 03:01] <Eluvatar> if all the younger folk in NS got together
[19 Sep 03:01] <Eluvatar> and made a conspiracy to exclude the older folk
[19 Sep 03:01] <Biyah> Uni is about 5 older
[19 Sep 03:01] <Biyah> CG is my age
[19 Sep 03:01] * Kurosaki returns.
[19 Sep 03:01] <Eluvatar> you guys would be sol
[19 Sep 03:01] <Eluvatar>
[19 Sep 03:01] <Biyah> WW is about 15 older, I think
[19 Sep 03:01] <Eluvatar> Mh
[19 Sep 03:01] <Biyah> the specops team of the ADN was all about my age, or just older
[19 Sep 03:01] * Goobergunch hears the phrase "younger folk" and his mind immediately goes to "The Young World"
[19 Sep 03:01] <Eluvatar> Of course, older people could possibly be good at pretending to be young
[19 Sep 03:01] <Eluvatar> >_<
[19 Sep 03:01] * Biyah stabs TYW
[19 Sep 03:01] * Goobergunch joins in
[19 Sep 03:02] <Eluvatar> So that probably wouldn't actually work out too well
[19 Sep 03:02] <Biyah> they can, heh
[19 Sep 03:02] <Eluvatar> oh Carinthe
[19 Sep 03:02] <Biyah> Thel is about 20 older than I am, so is his twin (naturally)
[19 Sep 03:03] <Durkadurkiranistan> Mahaj is only 14 lol
[19 Sep 03:03] <Biyah> that explains the fanaticism. Some of it, anyway
[19 Sep 03:03] <Durkadurkiranistan> yeah
[19 Sep 03:03] <r3n> 14, goodness
[19 Sep 03:03] <Durkadurkiranistan> and Harm started playing when she was 12
[19 Sep 03:03] <Eluvatar> I was about that age when I started NS
[19 Sep 03:03] <Eluvatar> Now that I just find hard to believe >_<
[19 Sep 03:04] <Durkadurkiranistan> 12?
[19 Sep 03:04] <Biyah> I don't
[19 Sep 03:04] <Anur-Sanur> I started playing in the eighth grade...before taking a break...
[19 Sep 03:04] * Kurosaki wonders what the oldest players in the game are at.
[19 Sep 03:04] <Biyah> when was that, last year? ::
[19 Sep 03:04] <Biyah>
[19 Sep 03:05] <Goobergunch> I think my parents would have freaked out if I had been on NS in middle school.
[19 Sep 03:05] <r3n> eighth grade is what age?
[19 Sep 03:05] <Goobergunch> Even as it was, I didn't tell them for months
[19 Sep 03:05] <Eluvatar> hm
[19 Sep 03:05] --> madiebee joined the channel
[19 Sep 03:05] --- ChanServ changed mode: +v madiebee
[19 Sep 03:05] <r3n> Yes, Goober, that's why I said goodness earlier
[19 Sep 03:05] <Goobergunch> (Also NS didn't exist yet but yeah )
[19 Sep 03:05] <r3n> but that was a decade ago
[19 Sep 03:05] <Anur-Sanur> eighth grade is like 13
[19 Sep 03:05] <r3n> Nowadays the standards are quite different
[19 Sep 03:05] <Biyah> very true
[19 Sep 03:05] <Eluvatar> I think I started as a HS freshman
[19 Sep 03:06] <Eluvatar> but that was in 2004, when I played isolated
[19 Sep 03:06] <Eluvatar> in a small region
[19 Sep 03:06] <Durkadurkiranistan> Arthur/Arty also claims to have started at age 12 but I don't believe him lol
[19 Sep 03:06] <r3n> Lol, I remember when I started
[19 Sep 03:06] <r3n> I was placed in the Pacific
[19 Sep 03:06] <r3n> which had Unlimited as the delegate at the moment
[19 Sep 03:06] <Eluvatar> I *think* I started in the West Pacific
[19 Sep 03:06] <Biyah> Unlmited, ahh
[19 Sep 03:06] <Biyah> I did start in TWP, both nations
[19 Sep 03:06] <Eluvatar> but for the life of me I have no idea who was Delegate
[19 Sep 03:06] <r3n> So, the noob I was, I tried to play it "sophisticated"
[19 Sep 03:07] <Biyah> Biyah wasnt my first
[19 Sep 03:07] <Anur-Sanur> my first got banned
[19 Sep 03:07] <Eluvatar> Eluvatar is my...
[19 Sep 03:07] <r3n> So I sent him a long-winded telegram asking why I should vote for him
[19 Sep 03:07] <Biyah> there's a surprise...
[19 Sep 03:07] <Eluvatar> fifth nation
[19 Sep 03:07] <r3n> and doing some sort of analysis of the then current UN res. at vote.
[19 Sep 03:07] <Anur-Sanur> I wub you Biyah
[19 Sep 03:07] <Biyah> most everyone does. It's the natural state of the universe.
[19 Sep 03:07] <Eluvatar> how did he respond, r3n?
[19 Sep 03:08] <r3n> To his credit, he did write back, even though it was a one-line reply.
[19 Sep 03:08] <r3n> I don't remember the exact words naturally, but he said something like "I try to satisfy all Pacific residents, if you don't agree don't vote for me"
[19 Sep 03:09] <Durkadurkiranistan> yeah Unlim was delegate when I started playing
[19 Sep 03:09] <Durkadurkiranistan> the Drunken Baffoon of Unlimited, and he had a family guy flag
[19 Sep 03:09] * Kurosaki believes that's the fastest way to satisfying no one.
[19 Sep 03:09] <r3n> When did you start Durk?
[19 Sep 03:09] <Durkadurkiranistan> buffoon
[19 Sep 03:09] <Kurosaki> *Unless every resident of a region is hand-picked.*
[19 Sep 03:09] <Durkadurkiranistan> late 2004
[19 Sep 03:10] <Goobergunch> I have no idea who The Pacific dlegate was when I started
[19 Sep 03:10] <Eluvatar> the feeders aren't hand-picked
[19 Sep 03:10] <r3n> When I started, he had the neutrals from Futurama
[19 Sep 03:10] <Kurosaki> Then trying to satisfy everyone isn't a good idea, is it.
[19 Sep 03:10] <Eluvatar> TNP generally has a vote on how the Delegate should vote on its forum
[19 Sep 03:10] <Eluvatar> you win some you lose some
[19 Sep 03:11] <Naivetry> started in TEP, admired Gnidrah's flag, got a recruitment TG from Gatesville that made me go 'heck no!' and then accepted the invite to Equilism... after reading through every UN resolution on the books at the time to see if I wanted to join.
[19 Sep 03:11] <Biyah> ... that's not surprising
[19 Sep 03:11] <Goobergunch> I think I read through every extant UN resolution when I joined too.
[19 Sep 03:11] <Goobergunch> It was a lot smaller then though.
[19 Sep 03:11] <Kurosaki> I take it you don't like Gatesville, Naivetry?
[19 Sep 03:11] <r3n> Yes, I did that too
[19 Sep 03:11] <Biyah> I was around for the first UN resolution, I didn't need to read them
[19 Sep 03:12] * Biyah shakes his fist at the Gatesvillians
[19 Sep 03:12] <Kurosaki> Don't you mean Gatesvillains?
[19 Sep 03:12] <r3n> I only remember the recruitment TG that I eventually followed, the one from then GB&I's dominion "The Falkland Islands"
[19 Sep 03:12] * Biyah called em Gavesvillians for years.
[19 Sep 03:12] <Biyah> one of the few times Deffy made me laugh. He started using the term, misspelled it - tried to correct it
[19 Sep 03:12] <Biyah> we rubbed it at him forevermore
[19 Sep 03:13] <Naivetry> GV was fun as a group on the political scene, but not my type of crowd. Rapidly anti-UN, as in you got the impression that most people joined GV because they hated the UN in real life.
[19 Sep 03:13] <Naivetry> Rabidly*
[19 Sep 03:14] <Biyah> I know Gates himself did
[19 Sep 03:14] <Biyah> or so he said
[19 Sep 03:14] <Durkadurkiranistan> they were almost all very conservative
[19 Sep 03:14] <Naivetry> and I'm kinda... not.
[19 Sep 03:14] <Durkadurkiranistan> well I don't think Ukie was conservative
[19 Sep 03:14] <Biyah> as Biyah I could have done it, had it only been an in-game thing
[19 Sep 03:14] <Naivetry> also not into the whole military WE MUST DEFEAT TEH GRATE EBIL!!!1
[19 Sep 03:14] <Biyah> but they were, most of hte time, just as nuts out of game as they were in
[19 Sep 03:14] <Durkadurkiranistan> nick was. nick dreamed of coming to Montana to hunt
[19 Sep 03:14] <Biyah> so I'd never have made it in Gatesville
[19 Sep 03:15] <Biyah> the only one I'm surprised didn't make it to Gatesville was Talkos
[19 Sep 03:15] <Durkadurkiranistan> LOL
[19 Sep 03:15] <Durkadurkiranistan> oh Talkos
[19 Sep 03:15] <Durkadurkiranistan> he was the best/worst
[19 Sep 03:15] <Biyah> oh yes
[19 Sep 03:15] <Kurosaki> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNDAQSpWdTw
[19 Sep 03:15] <Biyah> he was unstable...
[19 Sep 03:15] <Biyah> very very very unstable
[19 Sep 03:15] <Biyah> interesting to be around, though
[19 Sep 03:15] <Durkadurkiranistan> yeah
[19 Sep 03:15] <Durkadurkiranistan> wonder what happened to him
[19 Sep 03:15] <r3n> What was GV's recruitment TG roughly?
[19 Sep 03:16] <Biyah> probably locked himself away in his survival hideout deep in Montana
[19 Sep 03:16] <Biyah> or colorado
[19 Sep 03:16] <Biyah> or whever it was
[19 Sep 03:16] <Naivetry> I think I have it saved somewhere, actually. but it started with something like, "Dude, what are you still doing in the Pacifics?"
[19 Sep 03:16] <Biyah> LOL
[19 Sep 03:16] <r3n> I'd imagine "most powerful region" and "bring down the UN" would be the feature points
[19 Sep 03:16] <Biyah> they did have one that started like that
[19 Sep 03:16] <r3n> lol
[19 Sep 03:16] <Durkadurkiranistan> LOL yeah he did want to move to Montana IIRC
[19 Sep 03:17] <Naivetry> whereas Equilism's started with "You're probably getting a lot of other recruitment telegrams right now, but..." and went on from there. I nodded eagerly and kept reading.
[19 Sep 03:17] <Biyah> yup. He had this great plan for it
[19 Sep 03:17] <Anur-Sanur> I got a recruitment TG that started off with "Hey Sexy"
[19 Sep 03:17] <Anur-Sanur> that got my attention
[19 Sep 03:17] <Anur-Sanur> the rest of it was boring though
[19 Sep 03:17] <Biyah> my first one was an anti ACC telegram - so were the next ten
[19 Sep 03:17] <Biyah> guess why I joined the ACC and fought to keep em in TWP?
[19 Sep 03:18] <r3n> The one I got from GB&I was written like an announcement
[19 Sep 03:18] <r3n> as in "Attention attention, The Falkland Islands have just been granted independence from His Majesty's Government" etc.
[19 Sep 03:18] <Eluvatar> I guess I moved out to Eurasia too fast to get spam
[19 Sep 03:18] <r3n> which caught my eye
[19 Sep 03:18] <Eluvatar> except from the one rulebreaking reigon
[19 Sep 03:20] <Durkadurkiranistan> I gained interest in the Pacific when I read about Francos in NSwiki
[19 Sep 03:20] <Durkadurkiranistan> so that's where I started gameplay-wise
[19 Sep 03:21] <Eluvatar> In 2004, my involvement in gameplay was limited to:
[19 Sep 03:21] <Eluvatar> 1. Being a Delegate
[19 Sep 03:21] <Eluvatar> 2. Getting a TG warning me that some people were plotting ot invade my region
[19 Sep 03:21] <Eluvatar> 3. Passwording the region!!!+shiftone
[19 Sep 03:22] <Naivetry> lol
[19 Sep 03:23] <Kurosaki> Again: gameplay. Describe, please.
[19 Sep 03:25] <Durkadurkiranistan> gameplay is doing anything that matters
[19 Sep 03:25] <Durkadurkiranistan> as opposed to roleplay, which does not matter and is all make believe
[19 Sep 03:25] <r3n> heh
[19 Sep 03:25] <Kurosaki> And roleplayed gameplay does not exist?
[19 Sep 03:26] <Naivetry> not much since the Merit.
[19 Sep 03:26] <Naivetry> there's RP'd weddings and NS families.
[19 Sep 03:26] <Naivetry> but that's pretty much the extent of it.
[19 Sep 03:26] <Naivetry> unless, like some, you consider all of Gameplay a form of RP.
[19 Sep 03:27] <Goobergunch> OH GOD I'M RESPONSIBLE FOR DURK
[19 Sep 03:27] <Durkadurkiranistan> LOLOLOLOLOL
[19 Sep 03:27] <Durkadurkiranistan> YOUR FAULT
[19 Sep 03:27] <Durkadurkiranistan> otherwise I would have lost interest and left after a few weeks
[19 Sep 03:27] <Naivetry> Gameplay is the aspect of the game which deals with nations and regions as its basic units.
[19 Sep 03:27] * Kurosaki walks into the room properly, and considers this to be roleplay.
[19 Sep 03:27] <Biyah> inter-regional politics, wars (as in, nations moving around)
[19 Sep 03:27] <Naivetry> issues are at too small of a level to work with.
[19 Sep 03:28] <Kurosaki> Not if you tell it as a narrative.
[19 Sep 03:28] <Naivetry> roleplay doesn't actually affect your nation in the game code, so it doesn't matter.
[19 Sep 03:28] <Naivetry> to "gameplay"
[19 Sep 03:28] <Goobergunch> In NationStates, "roleplay" generally refers to playing as an actual country.
[19 Sep 03:28] <Biyah> or member of your 'country'
[19 Sep 03:28] <Biyah> to a lot of us, one nation is one person is one soldier.
[19 Sep 03:29] <Naivetry> a lot of us do "roleplay" our nations and people within them. but we generally see it as something entertaining and completely separate from our "gameplay" activities.
[19 Sep 03:29] <Biyah> right
[19 Sep 03:29] <r3n> Many gameplay regions actually take this approach
[19 Sep 03:29] <r3n> and treat roleplay in the more traditional sense sa a "cultural" activity
[19 Sep 03:29] <r3n> *as
[19 Sep 03:29] <Goobergunch> When the Security Council opened, I tried to RP it using my old-school WA ambassador.
[19 Sep 03:29] * Naivetry nods
[19 Sep 03:29] <Eluvatar> the thing is
[19 Sep 03:29] <Eluvatar> there is a gameplay In-Charactar
[19 Sep 03:29] <Goobergunch> It really didn't work that well.
[19 Sep 03:29] <Eluvatar> *Character
[19 Sep 03:30] <Eluvatar> it's just not referred to as roleplaying
[19 Sep 03:30] * Naivetry nods at Elu
[19 Sep 03:30] <Biyah> I've done just a little roleplay, insofar as we're playing out international relations and such
[19 Sep 03:30] <Naivetry> and that's why Elu and I don't really hate each other even though we were apparently talking circles around each other during the Empire.
[19 Sep 03:30] <Biyah> the marriage to Nai, a few little stories.
[19 Sep 03:30] <Eluvatar> Because generally, one isn't playing the role of a fleshed out characer
[19 Sep 03:30] <Eluvatar> but a persona
[19 Sep 03:30] <r3n> There used to be a controversial version of "roleplay within gameplay", if you permit the term
[19 Sep 03:30] <Biyah> the closest I came to an RP'ing gameplayer was as...
[19 Sep 03:30] <Biyah> Lord Rahl
[19 Sep 03:30] <r3n> what people used to call "duality"
[19 Sep 03:30] <Goobergunch> Exactly how close one's Gameplay persona is to one's actual person varies a lot.
[19 Sep 03:30] <Biyah> and that really backfired. What I took as an RP was taken as a threat by many
[19 Sep 03:30] <Naivetry> and I wrote a very convoluted post about it.
[19 Sep 03:31] <r3n> Cortath/Blackbird and Moldavi/Vlagh/Pierconium being primary examples
[19 Sep 03:31] <Eluvatar> Biyah: Gameplay-IC is gameplay-IC
[19 Sep 03:31] * Naivetry nods at r3n.
[19 Sep 03:31] <Eluvatar> to which it is appropriate to respond with gameplay-IC
[19 Sep 03:31] <Goobergunch> (Mine is, appropriately enough, probably close to his 16/17-year-old self than his current self.)
[19 Sep 03:31] <Naivetry> Ivan isn't actually evil personified. He just plays that way, and does it very very well.
[19 Sep 03:31] <Eluvatar> you appeared to be stating a gameplay-IC threat
[19 Sep 03:31] <Goobergunch> *closer and *mine
[19 Sep 03:31] * Biyah nods
[19 Sep 03:31] <Eluvatar> to which the response should be obvious
[19 Sep 03:31] <r3n> But duality goes beyond that
[19 Sep 03:32] <Naivetry> yeah
[19 Sep 03:32] <Biyah> if you believe in duality at all
[19 Sep 03:32] <Naivetry> and I don't.
[19 Sep 03:32] <Biyah> me neither
[19 Sep 03:32] <r3n> Ivan was claiming that Vlaugh and Moldavi should be treated as separate, I don't know, characters?
[19 Sep 03:32] <r3n> I don't either
[19 Sep 03:32] <Eluvatar> Yeah...
[19 Sep 03:32] <Biyah> yes, he did
[19 Sep 03:32] * Goobergunch is glad that duality has fallen out of favor
[19 Sep 03:32] <Kurosaki> And you state that you're a fangirl, Naivetry, because he's evil, correct?
[19 Sep 03:32] <Eluvatar> I am not at all convinced
[19 Sep 03:32] <Eluvatar> that he wasn't sharing information across characters.
[19 Sep 03:32] <Biyah> ... but then, I said the same when I wanted. Duality is a very useful excuse
[19 Sep 03:32] <Eluvatar> Not at all convinced.
[19 Sep 03:32] <Biyah> Duality was useful indeed during the Empire, heh
[19 Sep 03:32] <Naivetry> Kuro - yeah. In the same way that I would admire a very convincing character actor, because that's basically what he's doing.
[19 Sep 03:33] <r3n> The most extreme duality was brought was probably when Cortath became Consul of the Merit
[19 Sep 03:33] <r3n> and subsequently was claiming right to access ACCEL's secret forums
[19 Sep 03:33] <Goobergunch> Put another way -- if Ivan came back tomorrow and did *something*, the game would immediately get more interesting.
[19 Sep 03:33] <Biyah> counsul of the Merit, ranking leader of the RLA, and high member of the ADN
[19 Sep 03:33] <Kurosaki> You don't believe in duality. Clarify.
[19 Sep 03:33] <Kurosaki> What don't you believe in, exactly.
[19 Sep 03:34] <r3n> which, given his ohter positions as Blackbird, that Biyah already mentioned, ACCEL was not at all comfortable to grant
[19 Sep 03:34] <r3n> *other
[19 Sep 03:34] <r3n> and in the end didn't
[19 Sep 03:34] * Biyah nods
[19 Sep 03:34] <Eluvatar> lol
[19 Sep 03:34] <Eluvatar> http://s13.zetaboards.com/TNP/search/?c=3&mid=198125&month=3&year=2008
[19 Sep 03:34] <Eluvatar> Naivetry: you argued for TAO to be made TNP del
[19 Sep 03:35] <Naivetry> Duality is when you put a separation - in theory - between the things you know from playing one nation, and the things you know from playing another.
[19 Sep 03:35] <r3n> The interesting thing about ACCEL was that their laws were to an extent RP laws
[19 Sep 03:35] <r3n> which lead to several problems, especially when it came to national members
[19 Sep 03:35] <r3n> for example, Vlaugh was a national member around the ACCEL/Pacific debacle
[19 Sep 03:36] <Naivetry> Say, if I had a nation that was a raider. And I had another nation that was a defender.
[19 Sep 03:36] <Naivetry> Duality would mean claiming that my raider nation didn't know what my defender nation was doing.
[19 Sep 03:36] <Biyah> or a nation in two fueding regions
[19 Sep 03:36] <Naivetry> Or vice versa.
[19 Sep 03:36] <Biyah> 1338 comes to mind, PRP/Nasi
[19 Sep 03:36] <Naivetry> So the defender couldn't see any of the planning for raids. And the raider couldn't see any planning for liberations or defenses.
[19 Sep 03:37] <Kurosaki> It can be done, you know.
[19 Sep 03:37] <Naivetry> now, say Juicy Target Region gets invaded.
[19 Sep 03:37] * Kurosaki gets out the chess board.
[19 Sep 03:37] <Kurosaki> *In his mind, anyway.*
[19 Sep 03:37] <Naivetry> Say my raider nation is the delegate of Juciy Target Region.
[19 Sep 03:37] <Eluvatar> ehheheheh
[19 Sep 03:37] <Eluvatar> http://s13.zetaboards.com/TNP/search/?c=3&mid=198125&month=5&year=2008
[19 Sep 03:37] <Naivetry> My defender nation knows that there's going to be a liberation planned on Juicy Target Region tonight.
[19 Sep 03:38] <Naivetry> So, what are the odds that I can keep myself from being a little extra attentive that update? Not high.
[19 Sep 03:38] <Naivetry> At some point, you have to choose between nations. Between personas.
[19 Sep 03:38] <Naivetry> They come into conflict, and you have to decide where your loyalties really lie.
[19 Sep 03:38] <r3n> In regions with RP laws, it can also have other implications and be exploited.
[19 Sep 03:38] <Naivetry> And that's why I don't believe in duality.
[19 Sep 03:38] <Anur-Sanur> or you could just hit the buttons and see what happens
[19 Sep 03:38] <r3n> Although in that case, one could argue it is the fault of the legislators
[19 Sep 03:39] <r3n> and not of those practicing duality
[19 Sep 03:39] <Kurosaki> Flip a coin.
[19 Sep 03:39] * Kurosaki grins.
[19 Sep 03:39] <Naivetry> because at the end of the day, you're just one person and you can't un-know the things you learn as multiple people.
[19 Sep 03:39] <Kurosaki> Whether your intelligence division uncovers the plot by your agents.
[19 Sep 03:39] <Naivetry> that's just the simplest case, though, Kuro.
...
[19 Sep 03:39] <Naivetry> when it's just a matter of a single decision
...
[19 Sep 03:40] <Kurosaki> But the coin-flip option can be exercised multiple occasions.
...
[19 Sep 03:40] <Naivetry> you get into these networks where every choice impacts something else one of your nations is doing, and there's no getting over that. at that point, you're not playing anymore. You're not in charge. You're subject to that coin flip, and at that point, why even bother playing?
[19 Sep 03:40] <r3n> Kurosaki, imagine leading two opposing organisations.
[19 Sep 03:41] <Kurosaki> Because you, as legal ruler of your nation, don't theoretically control the weather of your nation, either.
[19 Sep 03:41] <r3n> Each with a different nation of yours, that you claim to be separate as you practice "duality".
[19 Sep 03:41] <Kurosaki> Consider it an Issue that suddenly happened.
...
[19 Sep 03:41] <Naivetry> which is why I don't pay attention to the supposed weather in my 'nation'.
...
[19 Sep 03:41] <Naivetry> and if I don't like issues, I ignore or dismiss them.
[19 Sep 03:41] <Kurosaki> But think of it: it makes it actually MORE believable as a ruler.
[19 Sep 03:41] <Biyah> I dismiss almost all of the
[19 Sep 03:41] <Biyah> m
[19 Sep 03:41] <Naivetry> no, it doesn't.
[19 Sep 03:41] <Kurosaki> You flip that coin, or roll that die...
[19 Sep 03:42] <Kurosaki> ...and you don't know what's going to happen.
[19 Sep 03:42] <Naivetry> because as a ruler, you get to respond to the things that happen.
...
[19 Sep 03:42] <Naivetry> if you're playing against yourself, all of your actions are just coin flips, and you never actually get to make ANY decision.
...
[19 Sep 03:42] <Kurosaki> Not ALL your decisions are coin flips.
[19 Sep 03:43] <r3n> Consider it from the perspective of your associates, too.
[19 Sep 03:43] <Kurosaki> Just the ones where you are in conflict with your other selves.
[19 Sep 03:43] <Anur-Sanur> I will take that nickname as a show of affection
[19 Sep 03:43] <Kurosaki> Or, say there's three powers involved.
[19 Sep 03:43] <Anur-Sanur>
[19 Sep 03:43] <Eluvatar> http://s13.zetaboards.com/TNP/single/?p=219672&t=634606
[19 Sep 03:43] <Eluvatar>
[19 Sep 03:43] <Kurosaki> Then you take it to a four-sided die.
[19 Sep 03:43] <Kurosaki> Etc.
...

At this point the conversation was interrupted by the fears of CrazyGirl and sedge that Kurosaki was not identifying his nation to their satisfaction and could be some kind of threat. Nothing further was of interest to understanding the past.

 

[unibot]

Great work, Elu!

 

[Eluvatar]

Thank you.

 

[Pasargad]

19 Sep 02:26] <Goobergunch> But you can't just completely take over like, say, Francos did.
[19 Sep 02:26] <Kurosaki> RA, again?
[19 Sep 02:26] <Durkadurkiranistan> Regional Assembly
[19 Sep 02:26] <Durkadurkiranistan> it's the legislative body that elects delegates
[19 Sep 02:27] <Kurosaki> K.
[19 Sep 02:27] <Durkadurkiranistan> infiltrate the RA, and TNP is your oyster
[19 Sep 02:27] <Durkadurkiranistan> lol
[19 Sep 02:27] <Eluvatar>
[19 Sep 02:27] <Durkadurkiranistan> not that I would ever do such a thing
[19 Sep 02:27] <Limi> its easy to join, just have a nation in TNP and take an oath
[19 Sep 02:27] <Eluvatar> Yup
[19 Sep 02:27] <Durkadurkiranistan> yeah
[19 Sep 02:27] <Eluvatar> Just as long as you have no integrity
[19 Sep 02:27] <Eluvatar> it's trivial...
[19 Sep 02:27] <Durkadurkiranistan> yep

Interesting specially comments regarding how to take over TNP by creating puppet nations and taking over RA since RA membership requirements is just having a nation in TNP and taking an oath

 

[Blue Wolf II]

Actually, that was the joint The Lexicon/Lone Wolves United plan to take over TNP in a nutshell...