NS ECONOMY

tbone

TNPer
This is a beta test:
Fellow Nations of the North Pacifc, we get to play with it first.
Our new version of NSeconomy is ==> 0.69. :lol:
It is located here --> New NS Economy Version!

The North Pacific Doesn't Crash --> 3000 nations listed...

AGAIN, This is a beta test: :unsure:
1. There is ongoing discussion between our economists and those in Commerce Heights to determine whose calculator is more accurate.
2. There are more links, searches, etc. coming online (2 search systems are being built as we speak)

What I need from you all is to get some feedback.
Any of you elders want anything?
Suggestions, etc.

Let's hear it from the peanut gallery :fish: let me have it...
 

tbone

TNPer
NS ECONOMY Continues to evolve...

Complete new systems:
-Leaders by GDP (top 100)
-Leaders in Trade (top 100)
-Most Worked Citizenry (top 100)
-Nations by Population (top 100)
-Regional GDP leaders
-Regional Import Leaders

Grosse, I'll add you a WA setup.
You can then check against your own country's endorsements.
 

tbone

TNPer
Endorsements section is working...
Blackshear has about half of the available endorsements (239/444 = 54%).
Grosse has just under 1/2 of the endorsements available (192/444 = 43%).
 

Eluvatar

TNPer
-
Trade leaders should be renamed net exporters.

Having an imbalance of trade in either direction isn't a good sign.

A nation which exports far more than it imports isn't actually getting value for its goods, it is deferring that value in favor of (possibly ludicrously inefficient) investment in foreign lands.
 

tbone

TNPer
Export Leaders is now the link.
Exchange rates just went live too...

Keep it up...
What is wrong with this thing :)
Keep those 2 Cents Coming.... PLEASE!!!

If I fix it now it's easy.
If I try to fix it later, I have to remember what I was doing in there....
 

tbone

TNPer
Finished Beta in under 30 days.
Thank you TNP!

Your Region has been noted in the credits....
 

tbone

TNPer
10,000 hits in 30 days, the next 10,000 hits in 3 days...
Apparently you guys like this thing :)

It won't be here forever, but I do want to continue to monitor this thread for TNP to have a personal method for BUG reports and FEATURE REQUESTS! I didn't do all that on my own, nor am I so arrogant to think you can't help me make it better....

I officially request Foreign Envoy Status to do so as I am not a citizen any more.

Look forward to your discussion...

Remember, NO IRC!
Sorry....NOC rules...
 

tbone

TNPer
New Enhancements Released

Large Regions by Default, All Regions by Request (facilitates 8x the traffic).
NationStates Big Regions with Nations in each

Populations Added to Regions Search Results,
Populations of all Nations in TNP

Demographics for the first time...

Black Market Added
Able to do so without restrictions on regions or members - those penalties are now served.
Thank sunset publicly, when you have time.

Pie Graphs,
HTML5, IE is buggy, but if you have a browser that works, they do too...
(safari, opera, firefox, chorme, and some IE installs work fine)
IE isn't compliant with any of the scripts out, and I am not sending out graphics...IE will have to catch up.
I.E. Pas' page renders 1/3 in IE.
NS Economy Calculator for a Nation with Graphs

What Else Folks?
Got a code fix?
Got a suggestion?

T

FYI:
No I am not expecting to keep the server running quickly and store over 5 million records a month.
Therefore, this NSEconomy system uses current data only.
Your upgrade has to use current data. No data storage...
 

Eluvatar

TNPer
-
Um, it's been pointed out to me that you have ZS have an obscenely huge black market. I compared it to sunset's ( http://www.sunsetrpg.com/economystatistics.php?nation=zemnaya_svoboda ) and his is far less gigantic.

It seems insane that you have average criminal income for 400k criminals as 1.6 MILLION dollars, when ZS has "moderate" crime. Similarly, the "moderate" doesn't match the black market being 50% larger than the legitimate market. What's going on?
 

tbone

TNPer
The black market now includes CRIME per se, and tax evasion.
Drugs, guns, goods, extortion, etc.
Plus any company that operates and doesn't report...barter, trade, etc. is all black market.

This addition to include white collar crimes too is where the difference sits.

Zemnaya has an Income Tax Rate of 55%!
SO YES, it has a tax evasion problem in addition to its criminals.........

That is what sunset was never able to get to work.
That is the difference, and why this one has new information...
 

Eluvatar

TNPer
-
So you think that a country with 55% income taxes will necessarily drive most of its economy underground?
 

tbone

TNPer
The equation is posted on the calculations page...Please do explain how you would change it....
This set of equations needs a bit of scrutiny so at least I can write the FAQ more completely.
We'll consider this that exercise:

You can think anything you want as long as you have a good reason....
SO here is the logic that it derived from (attack the reasoning in particular please):

Economies CAN produce 2x - 3x what they actually do.
Otherwise they would never be able to grow...

Why don't they?
Laws, enforcement, and Worker's Motivation.

I.E.
Who is motivated to be a drug kingpin or tax evader, outside the law, when instead they have opportunity to be a banker that keeps his money? Depending on law enforcement and government efficiency, how hard are you really fighting them. All the money to law enforcement is irrelevant if the government isn't efficient.....

In addition, when all is good, there is no motivation for those other "JOBS". When things aren't so rosy, folks do what they have to...

We devised that as the income tax rate goes up, and the nanny state emerges, so too does the following:
Trade,
Barter,
Tax Evasion,
Complacency in government positions, (forcing underground to do more).

When you have a "Crime Free" land, you have 1/2 of the available businesses.
Blackmail
Extortion
Drugs/Prostitution AKA legislated Unethical businesses.

As the tax rate goes up, these unintended business too prop up accordingly (sunset's original black market).
When you add tax evasion (barter/trade/etc) back into it, it balloons. (Look at Greece for RW example.)
Depending on your governments efficiency to fight it, all, we reduce things accordingly.
 

tbone

TNPer
High tax rate without 100+% confidence rate is a recipe for a huge black market....
So yes, it is a 3 part chain of cause, effect, cause, effect, cause, effect that is eating you El E.

I offer Greece as the model for RW high taxes; where the evasion is at 70% with 50% taxes + govt fees, local taxes, sales taxes, etc. There is nothing left. SO stand up business folks just aren't paying any more.

USA today is another good example to scrutinize...30% rates prior to deductions, and then add state taxes, and tax every time you spend or save.

England in the 70's crushing GDP is another, but the underground flourished, then the GDP stagnated...infrastructure for the BM didn't keep going into the system...no infrastructure for the BM to continue to persist....and the labour movement stagnated...

Pulling pod is the worst case...cambodia...

No matter, the more mayhem, the more it crushes GDP.
Taxes do the same thing over time as proven by hundreds of govts....It seems to crush tax receipts rather than increase revenues.
And that one whole section of the economy has to go SOMEWHERE.
The people seem to keep on keepin on....I bet there is something there not in the numbers....

AKA;
How many dollars are generated at pawn shops from stolen items?
VS
CDO losses in 2008 to bad mortgages in the US?
These did happen at the same time!

Purely from an economic perspective:
USSR Tractors are the epitome of economic complacency.
SO to is the US congress with 3 yrs of unemployment benefits being authorize...say it backwards: paid not to work for 3 years.
North Koreans Sweeping streets with brooms are no better...paid not to get much done.
Each is a waste of economic output under varied types of rule.

Next we go to the lawless:
Russia, after the fall, created more billionaires in recent history than anything else.....
The same fall opened up the already very prevalent black market, and all the business came out of the woodwork.

Somalia is the opposite, no infrastructure, and lawless.
Therefore, nothing for the black market, or clean business men to use to do business.
They have to build it from scratch, like the wild wild west of the USA back in 1700.

So purely from a Austrian Economists point of view:
Money can't be made or destroyed. It moves.
When fiat or fake money is printed, it is used while it's convenient to do so.
However, a government can only tax so much before it negatively effects both economic growth, and society as a whole.
It must be as efficient as the society it serves or it is really a burden.
The GDP per capita, and income per person is where you really gauge wealth.
When you see high criminal pay, know that some of that is white collar...

Bottom line:
Just a bit of law and order gooses the economy to have both a bm and strong GDP, the actual best case for employment.
1. It motivates everyone to do "SOMETHING"
2. Law creates pockets of opportunity as the people want what they want = see US drug war, immigration, etc.

The higher the tax rate, the more prone to swings of discontent...and for economists, it's shown in dollar value.
When those dollars go underground, society is hurt by no spending.
When those dollars are above ground, everybody has a "BETTER" way to spend them, disenfranchising those who were motivated enough to earn them....
Check out the canadian dollar vs gold chart, and then the dollar vs gold chart...10 yr.

So it's a catch 22, on purpose...just like the real world...
And it all revolves around taxes, government efficiency, and the confidence.
The more tax, the more violent those swings of confidence...the less efficient, the less you really control.

AT LEAST YOUR COUNTRY CAN"T GO BANKRUPT HERE :)

So now that all that is out on the table, how do we get those ideas into these equations....
Paragraphs of real world, game, and economics, into 4 lines of code :)

confidset = (( worker enthusiasm + consumer confidence + gov efficiency)/3);
IF ( confidset < 1){ commwaste = (1/ confidset) * .5 * economicoutput ; } ELSE {
commercial waste = (( -1 / confidset ) * .75 * govt waste )+ ( economicoutput * 3 * taxrate * (1/ gov eff ) ) ; }
bm = govt waste + commercial waste;


Ideas welcome, and I'll plug em in so we can see them live....
 

tbone

TNPer
Interested in your tweak becoming part of the BM or Demographics Discussions?
If you are peaceful, you have embassies. Your ambassador can submit to the discussion in TNP here...

GS. Noticed you put all TNP embassy requests to RA votes.
Ambassadors should be coming now that those trains are running on time...

El E,
Look at the number 3 in the 2nd line of code, I can change that to anything between 2 and 3.
This corresponds to there being a possible 2x - 3x of the economy unaccounted for.
Crime, Evasion, and Theft, both paper and real stuff...

+ ( economicoutput * 3 * taxrate * (1/ gov eff ) )
It makes a huge swing...
Where should it be?

Is an economy capable of 2x or 3x when really firing on ALL cylinders.... <_<
 

Eluvatar

TNPer
-
Correcting the waste calculations isn't the only thing I would suggest. (And I would suggest not having two separate calculation functions. I think ZS is bizarrely being punished for having >=1 confidence factor ;) ) I would also suggest removing the assumption that, given that your black market includes "normal" business being run off the books, that all the black market income is going to the "criminals".

That assumption was causing ZS Criminals to have a per capita income of $1.6 million!

I don't agree with the size of the black market you've calculated for Zemnaya Svoboda, but even were it to be the case, that income would not be so concentrated.
 

Feux

TNPer
I love it! :hug:

Would there be anyway to get a list of nations endorsing the delegate of a region and nations not?
 

tbone

TNPer
Jeux II, you have to know your delegate and just click on him from the WA page.
When you click on the WAs on that page, you can endorse everybody in your region in 2 clicks per.
The info I would need is in a different set of XML feeds (aka not in the data).
But do know I looked into it...

El E, check your PMs.
 

Feux

TNPer
tbone:
Jeux II, you have to know your delegate and just click on him from the WA page.
When you click on the WAs on that page, you can endorse everybody in your region in 2 clicks per.
The info I would need is in a different set of XML feeds (aka not in the data).
But do know I looked into it...

El E, check your PMs.
Thank you. :lol:
 

tbone

TNPer
Nice Find E!
You found a bug...

It put your Criminal Per Capita in 1/2...(you have a better than 1 for confidence / 3 = 1.0133)
I toned it down another 20% from there...

If your confidence set is under 1 the equation is now>>> (changed per TG)
commercial fraud and waste = (1/confidence) * 3 * economicoutput * tax rate

If your confidence set is ABOVE 1 the equation is now>>> (changed for you E)
commercial fraud and waste =
(economicoutput * 1.5 * tax rate * government efficiency) - (( 1- $confidset ) * .75 * $govt_waste )
If you are over a 1 on confidence (aka not greece), you only have a 1.5 multiplier now.
The second part recovers some due to high government efficiency, or leads to poor corporate oversight...

This still leaves room for real crime, syndicates in advanced nations, and tax evasion. Remember, your infrastructure can be used for many things, and 3% of the society is criminals....+ or - depending on your legislation....

I made a page to help us bug check this :)
The #1 should have the most crime right? Not crush the uprising....
Police States :)

Thoughts...
 
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