Regulating the IRC Channel

Govindia

Govindia

TNPer
I think as the #tnp IRC channel is supposed to be the community channel of TNP, it should come under the laws and regulations of TNP.

Especially since there have been trolls in the channel that have been allowed in, at my expense - more specifically, I was banned even though another member of that channel trolled me and inappropriately personally attacked my family, and the person who banned me at the time was friends with that troll and allowed it.

Additionally, there are ops in that channel who are not TNP citizens, much less members of government, and I feel there's direct conflict of interest in that regard.

I feel that there should be legislation to make sure that TNP laws also apply to the IRC channel, and that also includes a proper code of conduct for everyone to follow, and that unless someone violated the code of conduct or TNP crimes, no one should be banned from that channel for any other reason.

Quite a few other regions have IRC channels under their regional law, and if this is supposed to be a channel for the TNP community, it should respect and follow TNP laws as well.
 
The IRC channel has an owner (like a root admin, I'm not sure I remember who it is, as I'm rarely more than sitting in #tnp. But, who ever it is has the final say in who is and is not allowed in the channel. We could pass a law that said that it was under the control of TNP's government, but that does not necessarily make it so. If whoever owns the channel said he'd actually go along with such a law it would make this seem less pointless to me.

But I'm not sure such a law would be a good one anyway... People tend to get extremely dramatic and annoying on IRC in the middle of NS controversies. If bannings weren't possible or required some form of government approval first it'd be annoying.
 
Topid:
The IRC channel has an owner (like a root admin, I'm not sure I remember who it is, as I'm rarely more than sitting in #tnp. But, who ever it is has the final say in who is and is not allowed in the channel. We could pass a law that said that it was under the control of TNP's government, but that does not necessarily make it so. If whoever owns the channel said he'd actually go along with such a law it would make this seem less pointless to me.

But I'm not sure such a law would be a good one anyway... People tend to get extremely dramatic and annoying on IRC in the middle of NS controversies. If bannings weren't possible or required some form of government approval first it'd be annoying.
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Thel is the owner but is rarely active, and a passive op at that.

What happened to me wasn't even fair or legitimate in any circumstances, and the ones actually responsible for what happened are still around because they're close to one of the other ops and former delegates.

I feel that legislation is necessary to deal with members who are out of line, as well as ops who abuse their powers instead of being responsible.
 
I was under the impression Flem was the owner of the channel; and with his retirement from TNP, we probably do need to have an informal discussion with that channel's owner and mods (whoever they are) about the future of the channel.
I'm not sure I'd want government intervention in the form of legislation, as the mIRC have their own TOS and ways of doing things, and that fact alone will complicate things.

But a discussion sounds as if it would be appropriate under the circumstances.
 
IRC is free, right? Why doesn't someone just make a new channel and have any member of the RA or higher have ops only?

Edit: Heck, I might do do some looking into setting one up later. All we'd have to do is redirect the link on the WFE, and maybe here on the forums if it's anywhere.
 
Grosseschnauzer:
I was under the impression Flem was the owner of the channel; and with his retirement from TNP, we probably do need to have an informal discussion with that channel's owner and mods (whoever they are) about the future of the channel.
I'm not sure I'd want government intervention in the form of legislation, as the mIRC have their own TOS and ways of doing things, and that fact alone will complicate things.

But a discussion sounds as if it would be appropriate under the circumstances.
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The thing is, IRC doesn't deal with people who abuse their op powers, they let the channel owners handle that.

If the channel owner though, is inactive or doesn't want to get involved, then....yea:(
 
Thel is currently the owner of the channel and I'm one of the Op.

No abuse of op power had taken place and decision to ban any user is done after utmost consideration and deliberation with the channel's peace and each player's safety as priority. I see absolutely no justification to regulate the channel or move it elsewhere.

With all due respect, this is just Govindia attempt to circumvent the ban.
 
Felasia:
Thel is currently the owner of the channel and I'm one of the Op.

No abuse of op power had taken place and decision to ban any user is done after utmost consideration and deliberation with the channel's peace and each player's safety as priority. I see absolutely no justification to regulate the channel or move it elsewhere.

With all due respect, this is just Govindia attempt to circumvent the ban.
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Fel, you weren't even around when it happened.

I have the logs to the incident and it shows in fact I was verbally abused and trolled by Biyah and Wham and Dali still let them off scot free while I was banned. Even Flem acknowledged there was fault in that matter.

This isn't any attempt to circumvent a ban, this is an attempt to correct an unjustified ban from someone who abused their ops out of personal dislike and malice.

The logs don't lie, and even when Flem and Thel have both said those people were wrong in how they acted, yes, the ban was completely unjustified. You were not even there at all, so you have no right to defend the actions of an abusive op.

The channel needs to be regulated to prevent op abuse and non-TNPers from controlling the channel. It's an absolute necessity.
 
I don't actually needs to be around for this. The fact is that you have systematically shown that you have problem with IRC as evidences in many bans against you in several channels including #Equilism, #Taijitu, #TRR and #TNP. Regardless of how the event actually take place (And I have a lot of reservation on your account of the event), the channel owner and successor have every right to continue the ban if they feel that it is in the channel best interest.

It's the same as the forum, Op and Owner are allow to ban people that disturb peace regardless of regional law.
 
Felasia:
I don't actually needs to be around for this. The fact is that you have systematically shown that you have problem with IRC as evidences in many bans against you in several channels including #Equilism, #Taijitu, #TRR and #TNP. Regardless of how the event actually take place (And I have a lot of reservation on your account of the event), the channel owner and successor have every right to continue the ban if they feel that it is in the channel best interest.

It's the same as the forum, Op and Owner are allow to ban people that disturb peace regardless of regional law.
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You haven't shown any clear bias or fairness at all which shows you've not changed in terms of bias.

You do not know what happened in those channels so you do not have any legitimate claim to speak about it.

Furthermore, I was the one whose peace was disturbed by Biyah and Wham, not the other way around. The fact that you condone the behaviour of trolls is sad. Either you condemn their behaviour and stop it or you condone it and let it happen. There is no middle ground when it comes to dealing with the inappropriate behaviour of others who use me as a scapegoat.
 
I'm assuming that you are accusing me of bias? It's very interesting that anyone that doesn't have a favorable opinion of you is automatically bias against you or lacking in the term of fairness.

I have every trust in #TNP owner and Ops. I see absolutely no need to interfere with how they work in the same way that I see no need to interfere with forum admin work.

Law should be created for TNP's best interest, not to serve a single man's wish to circumvent a legitimate ban.
 
Felasia:
I'm assuming that you are accusing me of bias? It's very interesting that anyone that doesn't have a favorable opinion of you is automatically bias against you or lacking in the term of fairness.

I have every trust in #TNP owner and Ops. I see absolutely no need to interfere with how they work in the same way that I see no need to interfere with forum admin work.

Law should be created for TNP's best interest, not to serve a single man's wish to circumvent a legitimate ban.
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You refuse to acknowledge that the trolling behaviour of others is not proper. My ban was never legiitmate as I pointed out. That to me looks like you are condoning the inappropriate behaviour of people.

Felasia I know for a fact you do not like me and your bias shows that.

If the TNP channel is supposed to be for the TNP community, it should be able to accept and fall under TNP laws. There needs to be accountability and a proper code of conduct. It looks like you don't want the channel to be held accountable to TNP law or anyone, which makes me believe you condone the abusive behaviour of others.

I will be drafting legislation later today to outline the regulations for the IRC channel.
 
Hmm, I doubt the logs are as ironclad as you report them to be because they haven't been posted yet. But I'm sure they do make it look like you were unfairly banned. Logs of a single incident cannot show a pattern of behaviour. Wham and Biyah very well could have been trolling worse than you in this one incident, but it sounds like you have a pattern of trolling over long periods by your bans from three other popular channels. And if this was not a first incident for you, it may explain why they got warned while you got banned.
Felasia:
With all due respect, this is just Govindia attempt to circumvent the ban.
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That analysis appears likely to be correct to me.
 
Topid:
Hmm, I doubt the logs are as ironclad as you report them to be because they haven't been posted yet. But I'm sure they do make it look like you were unfairly banned. Logs of a single incident cannot show a pattern of behaviour. Wham and Biyah very well could have been trolling worse than you in this one incident, but it sounds like you have a pattern of trolling over long periods by your bans from three other popular channels. And if this was not a first incident for you, it may explain why they got warned while you got banned.
Felasia:
With all due respect, this is just Govindia attempt to circumvent the ban.
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That analysis appears likely to be correct to me.
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Ask Flemingovia and Thel themselves about those logs from that day. They will verify that I have been trolled.

As for the other channels, I do not troll at all. Others have trolled me. Some people know about my social deficiencies and like to push my buttons Topid.

However, this legislation is designed to put the #tnp IRC channel in TNP's jurisdiction. Currently IRC has nothing to deal with inactive or semi active founders/successors who are in the channel but do not do much otherwise, whatever the reason, nor do they deal with abusive ops, relying instead on the channel owner / successor to handle them. This law will make all the ops more accountable and ensure that it doesn't come under foreign regional influence.
 
Enif:
IRC is free, right? Why doesn't someone just make a new channel and have any member of the RA or higher have ops only?

Edit: Heck, I might do do some looking into setting one up later. All we'd have to do is redirect the link on the WFE, and maybe here on the forums if it's anywhere.
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That's a fairly easy solution. I could, also, give a nudge to Thel in RL to get him to poke into the IRC chat more often.
 
As a general rule in the TNP forums, and the TNP IRC channel, the chat logs cannot be posted here in a public area without permission of all participants to the chat.

However, the RA does have a private forum, mostly for sensitive regional security issues, and if the participants to this conversation in this thread want to post the unedited transcript in that private area for RA members, Admin and Global Mods to view, as root admin I will allow a one-time exception in order to facilitate a meaningful discussion and to help get this away from the tit-for-tat that this thread has dissolved into. I think that would be a far more constructive way of looking at this issue than what we have going on at the moment. Is that acceptable to you guys?
 
I took the time time to actually ask flemingovia. This is his reply:

I do not have permission to reply to that topic, so if you could pass this on. Please post it in its entirety:

"Despite what is said on this thread I have not been owner of the channel #irc for many months. I do not, however, support the principle of the legal framework of TNP getting involved in the operation of the channel. that is what mods and channel owners are for.

TNP has always resisted the pressures to regulate the OP and ADMIN functions on irc and this forum. Unless you want to be even more bogged down in regulation and lawsuits, I suggest this is kept up.

I have a vague recollection of the incident Gov refers to. I have no logs, so I work from memory. There is little doubt that Govindia was tag-teamed and goaded before his banning. But it takes two to tango, and Nationstates is a game for grown ups. Govindia chose to rise to the bait despite having many opportunities to walk away.

Since my name is being bandied about in this thread, let me make myself clear: for the good of the irc community on #tnp and for his own good I fully supported Govindia's ban and did not overturn it.

Govindia causes turmoil wherever he goes because he is simply too immature to cope with the cut and thrust of IRC debate. He cannot help it, but there it is. Others were in the wrong over his banning, but they were all capable of behaving properly on the channel, even when goaded. Gov was not. The ban (and it's continuation) was not simply over this one episode.

Govindia, please stop using my name and implying that I think that your ban was unjustified. At the time of the bad I was a SOP on the channel. If I had thought that you were without fault, I would have overturned the ban. For the record I believe that the ban was totally, completely and absolutely the right outcome. Mainly for your own good.
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I have the logs of the incident I believe still and it can show what happened. While it is unfortunate that I rose to the bait, the actions with the trollers involved were far worse and were looked past by others.
 
I went in there once and saw some mild trolling, looked like raiders, this was when I founded my nation, so it was a tad bit ago. If we need more moderators, I'll volunteer, just to help out.
 
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