Liberations: What Has Become of Them? Part II

[New Kervoskia]

NS:Crossfire - Debating irrelevant issues all night long, baby!

Biyah, New Kervoskia, Dalimbar & Robert Novak

<@NewKervoskia> Good evening and  I'm New Kervoskia coming to you live from #crossfire on IRC, you're watching NS:Crossfire.
<@NewKervoskia>To my right is the Canuck with the silver tongue - Dalimbar!
<@NewKervoskia> To my left is a man who takes no prisoners - Biyah!
<@NewKervoskia> Tonight our panel will continue their discussion of Liberations: What has Become of Them? with a focus on modern NS liberations. But before we begin I'd like to welcome our two distinguished guests: Naivetry and redback.
<@NewKervoskia> Biyah won the coin toss, so Biyah your opening statement, please.
<@Biyah> I'd like to welcome our two guests - redback and Naivetry, this should prove interesting. As for modern liberations - I might be an old warhorse, but they just don't seem to have the same luster they once did. I'd have given my back teeth once upon a time for something like a 'liberation' resolution. Now that it's here, I find I'm very... meh. 
<@NewKervoskia> Dali, your response?
<@Dali> In the week after the past show, Biyah and I have been called hypocritical and out of touch from people with different agendas for seeing this notion of "liberation" through the WA in a different light than certain individuals. I am glad to have Red Back and Naivetry on here this evening to perhaps allow us the opportunity to really go into detail why I feel this way. Get rid of the popularity contests on who gets liberated and who doesn't, and bring back old fashioned espionage and dedication is what I say.
<@NewKervoskia> Hm, before rebuttals, I'd like to hear our guests' opinions. Naivetry, would you please?
<@Naivetry> Now I love both of you guys so don't take this the wrong way, but as someone still tangentially involved in this side of the game, it seems to me that the problem you're complaining about is at least partly your fault.  From two people who got out of raiding/defending after Influence, the argument that today's defenses don't measure up just rings a little hollow.
<@Naivetry> If you've got a problem with the way things are today, why not be part of the solution?
<@Dali> Darling, I find your statement a bit out to lunch. I was still defending even after Influence was instituted.
<@Biyah> I didnt leave after influence
<@Dali> I still dable with defences, as you know yourself, have been in quite a few summits with numerous sides of the game to find solutions, so to find that I am just an grumpy old man is a tad unfounded.Though, I can go back to my retirement home and let certain groups destroy our legacies if you want.
<@NewKervoskia> And now a word from our sponsor...
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<@redback> I must admit I have not thought about the new rules that have been bought in as I believe they are driven from the NS forum which I do not have time to read. I'm not opposed to them as they do bring new challenges to the game I choise to play. The new WA proposals that allow the password to be removed from regions is only there so both the natives & fenda have a get out of jail card if they are out smarted by the raiders
<@Biyah> A card it appears they need - these days.
<@Naivetry> Feel free to help us out. 
<@Dali> Yet, is it not possible for a group who wants to take over a innocent little region that is passworded to simply claim that they were invaded and let the WAers vote for it, allowing imperialists or griefers or any other group to do what the defenders have been doing?
<@Naivetry> Sure, they can try.  Why not?  I'd love to see them do it... add some more variety to the game.
* @Biyah is still waiting for the WA proposal that temporarily disbands the power of the Founder, to even the playing field again.
<@redback> You need to have WA support, raiders change there WA constantly as a tatic & makes to hard to vote for proposals as it can lead to your WA puppet discovery
<@Dali> So then the point of the so called "liberation" function is lost. Why not call it the "locksmith" function or something more appropriate?
<@Naivetry> I'm all for that, actually.  I've argued for it on the official boards. @ RB - but defenders change around their WA's, too - the massive support we're getting for these is coming mostly from neutrals, or from larger, settled regions that may defend (or raid) but don't specialize only in military action.
<@Biyah> The Defenders have always had a better PR Corps
<@Dali> Even mediocre government systems can be better than none, I suppose
<@Biyah> My, that almost sounds pro-raider. Bow-tie on to tight tonight?
<@redback> the fenda will rotate between 2-4 nations but can hold there wa over a voting window. I can not if I'm active raiding as I can change my was upto 4 times a day with the 2 updates now
<@Dali> I was more referring to the FRA vs. DEN, actually. I suppose your bald head bounced my arguments away from your ears.
<@Naivetry> @ RB - true, but the big numbers aren't coming from masses of active defenders, but from delegates - look at the Pacifics, for instance.
<@Dali> Who can be easily manipulated if either side wants to put the effort in... *coughs*
<@Biyah> Mmm. That could easily turn against the liberation proposals - there's a former raider in charge of the current most active pacific.
<@Biyah> that too.
<@Naivetry> Precisely.  I'd like to see a fight there... I'm more of a PR junkie than a military commander, anyway.  Give me some good political battles to win! 
<@redback> @ Nai very true but raiders have never received massive support from the feeders
<@Biyah> Raiders did pretty well taking TEP for the Empire. Anyway, I think we were talking about liberations - and stealing feeders, of course. I'll admit (in my old age) that the games rules have changed, and things have had to change with them. Even so, a lot of the defenders today seem to lack a luster, training seems to be at an all time low. Whereas, we still see fits of brilliance out of the Raiders.
<@Dali> If raiders wanted to utilize feeders to counteract defenders using the WA for liberations, then they simply need to use their powers in feeders to give them leverage. I know a few of them have Ministries in a couple feeders at this point of time, regardless of the fact that defenders aren't quite happy about that.
<@Biyah> damned raiders.
<@Naivetry> @ RB - I suppose it's just a matter of the climate today.  I don't know many raiders (besides Franks) who get into the propaganda, and only one who takes much of an open interest in political maneuvering.
<@Biyah> A group of political raiders. That'd be a sight.
<@Dali> Return to the AA, eh?
* @Biyah hides his old AA badge.
<@redback> I'm involved in TNP but too vote on TNP's stance on proposals I believe requires my WA being in TNP
<@Biyah> The AA did have one thing going for it. Style. I'd kill to see that today, heh... and having said that, how about some audience participation? I can have an alter set up in a trice. 
<@Dali> Maybe give them a hand?
<@Biyah> Now liberations don't happen, unless a precious WA resolution goes through.
<@Dali> Redback, from your experience, how successful have the defenders been at liberations without utilizing the WA?
<@Biyah> What was the last high profile liberation that happened? And i'm not talking about a 5 WA mom-and-pop op down by the river
<@Dali> In a van, perhaps?
* @Biyah coughs
<@Naivetry> Before Belgium?
<@Biyah> Mmm hmm.
* @Naivetry sighs and goes to check her records.
<@Biyah> And Belgium was a piece of work. That same action had happened how many times? And the only time someone screamed was when it was an older, established region. Pure hypocrisy.
<@redback> I believ Belgium was liberated before the vote was ended due the fenda getting the P/W before hand & the point being lazy
<@Naivetry> No, we screamed before that when it happened to France.  But it wasn't until the move to the new forums that we had a chance of being heard.
<@NewKervoskia> But tell me, who's to blame for the world's current state of liberations?
<@redback> I do believe the FRA take credit for changing the rules
<@Dali> I blame Influence
<@Biyah> They've tried to take credit for every major change since after influence.
<@redback> There is a lot of bad remarks about influence but I quite like it. I know what I can & cannot do
<@Naivetry> ...er, while members of the FRA did help out, the first several months of discussion didn't involve them at all.
<@Biyah> I did say 'tried'
<@Dali> Hence why Biyah mentioned "tried to take credit"
<@Biyah>
<@NewKervoskia> Question for Naivetry, if the so-called old guard defenders continued to be active, would liberations not have ended up like this?
<@Naivetry> Personally, I don't think there's a problem with the way things are now, given what we have to work with.  But I do think that having more of the old guard around to work with would change things up, yes.
<@NewKervoskia> Dali, Biyah what do you think?
<@Biyah> My part of the game dried up. I was always the intel side, there's no intel left worth calling it a name. i've taken part in a few missions in the last few months (usually under a persona, one side or the other). The old spark just isnt there. I think there'd have to be a serious changeup in how things are run before the old guard would really think of coming back.
<@Dali> If some of the crude, crass, and ignorant individuals who are in positions of power in the defender movement had actual respect for those of us who spent years fighting battles that involved strategy and actual thought, then I might consider it. And I bet others would not tolerate the attitudes as well.
<@redback> I must aggree that intel has dried up. At TBH we don't have an intel area anymore & most of our running is now done via MSN.
<@Biyah> Mm, some of the newer attitudes I've run into ARE rather irritating.
<@Naivetry> I think Intel's dry because activity overall is down.
<@Dali> If both Invaders and Defenders had the power structures that we used to have, then I can see activity on that level increase
<@Biyah> Or the newer generation of 'intelligence operatives' can't hack it, heh
<@Naivetry> Even if we emphasized Intel more, what is there to spy on these days?
<@Biyah> Oh, I still find things to get into. My ip bible isn't suffering
<@Dali> Oh, when I hear there are some defenders trying to phish IPs from an invader group and said group plays around with the defender "spy", it's a sad state.
<@Biyah> Yes, I had to laugh when I heard that.
<@Naivetry> Well, iirc, that went the other way around, too.
<@Biyah> Oh, I know.
<@Naivetry> And I didn't like it any better from that side.
<@Naivetry> Speaking as a PR nut, here...
<@Dali> Certainly. And both sides need to step up efforts to train instead of using raw numbers and certain institutions
<@NewKervoskia> So what would you suggest people do?
<@Dali> I would suggest doing deep internal searching for what needs to be fixed in your own groups before the others do the same. If you need help, then express it instead of doing the things that are happening right now. And to be clear, I am not pointing at any group in particular.
<@Naivetry> Get involved.  No point in complaining about activity if you're not doing anything yourself.  We all like to be part of something with energy and momentum, but as things stands, someone has to go out and do the grunt work to get things moving.  It's not just going to spontaneously generate itself... but with that said -  
<@Dali> Huh... didn't know I was doing nothing and just being a complainer *coughs*
<@Dali> Right Biyah?
<@Biyah> We're lazy, out-of-touch pastiches. You didnt know that Dali?
<@Dali> I must have placed that memo in the files I didn't care for.
<@Naivetry> We also need to keep up the dialogue with the moderators and admin on the official boards. Just the few changes we've seen since this summer have done a great deal to provide a stimulus for more activity.
<@Naivetry> And no, this time I wasn't talking to you two.
<@Biyah> These two basically covered my thoughts - so I can only add one more thought. All the soldiers need to get drunk and pick a few bones once in a while. On such activities, blood vengeance oaths are sworn
<@Dali> Aye. Don't do conferences about "omg, how do we increase activity", just go ape-shit and do something.
<@redback> I think the shutting of NS2 has also bought back to the game so I would not say the changers have done all the work
<@Biyah> The death of NS2 might give us enough juice to last a bit.
<@Biyah> If Max and Mods keep up the level of attention they've been paying to us, anyway
<@redback> yes
<@Biyah> Us being NS1 players
<@Biyah> not Gameplayers in specific.
<@Naivetry> RB - a bit, but personally, I think that update time change, and then the double update, helped a lot of us
<@Naivetry> NS2 dying got more newbies to stick around, but I think the upsurge in military activity can be traced directly to the update changes.
<@Naivetry> of course, hard to prove something like that.
<@Biyah> Indeed. I'm asleep during daytime update
<@redback> update time did not help me & TBH as our updaters are now been nullified.
<@Naivetry> even with two updates?
<@Biyah> Two times, double the personnel necessary.
<@NewKervoskia> Now time for closing remarks.
<@Biyah> I had the same complaint. Now, in order to be fully active at all updates, you need to have either very good timing, no job or a really good net-phone.
<@Naivetry> From someone who did update at 3 am for a couple of years... I understand the difficulty there, RB.
<@Dali> Anyways, I would like to thank Nai and RB for being here as our guests, and would like to state that the world really needs a hard look at itself and finding ways to fix problems ourselves.
<@Biyah> Oh, I think his getup absolutely screams for viagra commercials.
<@Naivetry> Thanks for watching, everyone.  Remember, only you can generate activity. 
Biyah> Let my closing remarks be this then....
<@Biyah> Love you hun?  *goes looking for flowers*
<@Dali> Soon Nai, you'll have him housetrained like PH did.
<@Biyah> Gee, i'm not sure I can get that excited while you're wearing THAT suit.
<@Dali> Good, because I'm not attracted to men with bald heads and inflated egos.
<@NewKervoskia> That's all for tonight, but join us again next week for another edition of NS:Crossfire! <@NewKervoskia>For those of you who couldn't join us tonight, you can visit our studio on The Rejected Realms forums.

Directed by
Max

Produced by
New Kervoskia
Kandarin

Panel
Dalimbar
Biyah

And a special thanks to our guests
Naivetry
redback

Next week's topic: FRA:WTF?


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[King Durk the Awesome]

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