Honest Dissent

Tresville

Tresville

TNPer
When I was first born into this region, I came to the forum because I was told that this is where we could participate and become part of the community. As a newb/noob, I was more interested in the forum community as I was not too impressed by the basic aspects of the game (RMB, Issues and what not). I registered, poked around for more than a month (due to the overwhelming depth of the forum) until I became comfortable enough to post and participate.

Their was talk of democracy and freedom (mainly from Twoslit the founder of the first TNP forum) and plenty of talk about this evil character named Francos Spain. I bought in, participated...only to find that this democracy talk was a load of crap. People were hand picked for positions by a small group and the delegacy was passed around to members that Twoslit trusted. Blackballed for going against the status quo and labeled a rebel/plant, I still managed to organize the first democratic elections for government positions here (back then all we had were forum mod positions as a watered down government). Twoslit and his "Old Guard" slowly lost their influence to new up and coming members such as Thel, Magicality and a few others. Twoslits own group slowly left him as well, while he tried to hold what lil power he had in the form of forum. He would not hand over control, would not add any features to improve the forum (I offered a few times to pay and for him to give control to Ananke or someone else). For close to a year I tried to convince the community that we needed to get a new forum and ensure that Twoslit had no control left. But people felt they had roots there...they did not want to lose the forum. It took one last act of abuse and alienation from Twoslit for the community to finally gather around Hersfold and move forums. For the first time the region was free from his tyrannical control of the forum and our democratic efforts were no longer hindered. Our Root was chosen by the forum community.

With that s13 was born. Things were great. Our admins organized the forum, we banded together to get it in full operation. We went through rogues every year but we know that this is the cost of democracy. People are given chances and they prove their loyalty, patriotism with their actions. Cathy, EM and Dalimbar went rogue but none of them were able to sustain power for more than a few months. This is proof that this community and its strive for democracy (a true and perfect democracy in NS is a myth) is the only constant in this region. We have had more delegates than any other feeder in the game proving that in this feeder citizens have a greater chance of becoming delegate than in any other.

Excuse the brief history lesson...I will get to my point soon...

NS has been in slow decline for 2 years now. The defender/Invader conflict that kept things interesting has been stifled by the addition of Influence. NS2 is not what any of us expected. The fact that our NS1 communities remain is proof that NS2 currently does not satisfy the sense of community that came out of the original game. Kandarin recently did a poll that shows why we still remain here.

We have been worried that NS will die. But I do not believe this will happen any time soon. We (NS) are leveling off and reaching a point that we will probably be in for some time. More changes are coming. This should stop the decline, as it is now common knowledge that the game is truly in a decline and people are trying to do something about it.

TEP community (please do not take this as an insult only an observation) failed to keep itself active and it was so isolated in NS that it was taken over by players seeking activity...or rather seeking to breed it. After that affair was done, the community picked up the pieces and that forum has been rejuvenated. My Kudos to them.

TWP was forced to reform by one of it's own because the regional government had slowly been failing for some time. Currently a new government is in the works and we will see if the community thrives once everything is settled.

TP and TSP for the most part remain the same activity and community wise.

So what happens now in TNP?

This community must realize that 1 of three things will happen....
1. We will be attacked and overtaken and again lose the levels of influence that we have gathered which will push many to give up on the region or game.
2. Our very own will go rogue, cause havoc and force us to regroup as usual only to return to the same trend of the past 2 years....4 months of activity and 8 months of inactivity or 3. we remain unchanged, bored and slowly dying waiting for a comet to hit the NS servers.

I would like us to consider a fourth option.......let us take matters into our own hands...grow and change with the times or be left back.


For months I have been talking to everyone and their mother about many different endeavors that could bring about change.

The first one that I discussed with many here via PM was the creation of a new forum. A hosted one where we can escape IF restrictions and bugs, add more options and features. Not a new idea as I have been trying to persuade our admins for years to upgrade. It would be a nice project that we could all work on like the creation of a new football stadium (NOT SOCCER lol). I ran it by Winnipeg months ago (some of you know him) who currently is the admin of TWP and The Meritocracy forums. A trusted and talented admin who has intimate knowledge of running forums. I simply asked about hosting, what the benefits are etc...general info to be gathered to compose a proposal to the RA for a forum project. This is something that I have wanted this community to have for a long time. Perhaps I am too passionate and care too much about the region...but I just feel that we deserve a forum where we aren't restricted by Invision and (no offense) lack of knowledge by admins. Please understand that this idea is not a fix for activity....it is just an endeavor that could help with regional pride and would help in attracting new members...or rather sustaining members. This should be coupled with other endeavors to bring about and sustain activity.

The second idea is something that has been tried in other regions but I want to take it one step further. Currently our communities are born in NS and some are branching out into other games. I would like for us to do the same but also make it more of a "gaming" community not specific to NS. We could branch out into other games which would bring more people into the forum. If any game slowly dies or we lose interest at least the community would not be hurt as has happened here.

My third idea is creating a region we could dub as our capital city...Magicality City....allowing us to recruit for that region in feeders and direct them to this forum. Would work like a city government. This has many benefits...WA's for protection, continued forum activity etc.

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Something here has to give. We cannot continue in the same fashion we have been for the past 2 years.

I hope to hear your opinions here before I bring any proposal to the RA...which would be either disbanding the government to start a new one with new faces, a new forum etc or one of the other ideas I mentioned above.
 
"Things are tough all over, cupcake. It rains on the just and unjust alike..."

I maintain that the introduction of influence was a fatal mistake in NS. It encourages stagnation.

As for your predictions, 1 is possible. 2, I flatter myself, is unlikely. 3 is likely.

As for your suggestions, 1 I would fight tooth and nail to oppose. I don't think a new forum would increase activity one bit. A forum is a forum at the end of the day. 2 is an idea, but I can imagine us making tits out of ourselves if we go overboard with it. 3 is a very interesting idea and introduces a new feeder dynamic between us and our very own UCR and might be worthwhile following up if we can reach a consensus.
 
Those are more like possible directions not specifically what will happen......ummm...even though...all three of those could happen in 1 year...but I hope not. lol

I don't think u specifically will go rogue...but our own will get tired and seek change from whoever can provide it.

I just know that we cannot continue the way we are and we should take charge of our own destiny as opposed to waiting for something to happen. Wolves are always waiting in the wings to attack...lets not forget that.
 
Damn I thought I placed this in the NS section!! Can someone move this please...it should be a general discussion.
 
Topic moved.

Just a nice reminder that the fastest way to reach me is to send me a PM here. I get e-mail notification and if for some reason I am AFK, I will see it as soon as I get back online. Using the TGs at NS is risky because I might go several days without checking in there.

As to your concerns, I can't say what the answer is. And given your slam again Admin generically, I wouldn't expect my opinion to be sought or valued. The only thing I can't do as an admin is write HTML code (which inly involves the skins for the forums; and we have a massively complex masking set up which I simplified to one extent and Elu cleaned up as best he could. It still isn't a easy system, and I've still had to improve some things thatwe haven't been able to adapt any other way.

If we want to try upgrading the forums to the zetabpards platform, we can try that. The desire when Flem and I received authorization from the region to do so was conditioned upon Zetaboards moving out of beta test status. As far as I know, they haven't yet.

But if folks want to go that route, we can try it. Because Flem's time is currently limited, and because Elu has all but disappeared, and Byard is rarely around, I would need to have Ator becoma an admin so that HTML and similar coding concerns in such an upgrade could be met efficiently.

Yes there are problems in Nationstates. When one considers that the IDU which probably had more success in the NSUN during that era than any other group, has all but died in the WA era because of the disheartening feeling they all had after all their work and accomplishments were washed away a year ago. That's the primary reason why I moved my WA back to TNP a few months ago; I have a feeling that region will CTE within another year, or sooner.
 
I'm don't see much point in spreading ourselves thinly across multiple games like not enough butter over too much bread - but I would be wholeheartedly supportive of a shift to a new forum.

The current one does its job - as any forum does. But what's here, and what wouldn't be present on a new forum, is a huge, intimidating archive, mostly, of thousands of pieces of information left untouched for months...years...that only serves to confuse and discourage newcomers.

A new forum, simplified perhaps - and more manageable - would reflect our new attitude towards serious change - a new era. It can also serve as a marketing point..."hey, TNP has just built some brand-spanking-new forums! Come sign up!". It would be the home of Sydia, Flem, Tres, Grosseschnauzers, Khark, me and anyone else involved in this Age - not the desolate, crumbling ruins that once hosted immortalized TNP gods of the past, whose figures cast a bigger shadow in this place than the moon itself - shadows that, if we keep clinging to, will only encourage us (those old enough to remember them) to live in the past, and those too new to know anything, to forever be wondering what the heck those veterans are talking about.

I think we should break away from that mould. Create our own. In terms of progress and activity, stop the evolution. Start the revolution. Its needed...and can start with the forum.

My :2c: anyway...though I honestly don't see any problems in regards to admins' capabilities. Extra assistance might be needed to help with HTML graphics and such - but other than that, things seem pretty well run as it is.
 
Grosseschnauzer:
And given your slam again Admin generically, I wouldn't expect my opinion to be sought or valued.
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Gross, believe me the ton of work you have done is invaluable. You're a work horse and the backbone of this forum and community. Everyone should know that. I hope you don't take any of this as a slight on your efforts or work. Ask anyone here...I hold you in the highest regard.
 
Tresville:
Grosseschnauzer:
And given your slam again Admin generically, I wouldn't expect my opinion to be sought or valued.
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Gross, believe me the ton of work you have done is invaluable. You're a work horse and the backbone of this forum and community. Everyone should know that. I hope you don't take any of this as a slight on your efforts or work. Ask anyone here...I hold you in the highest regard.
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That's one ADMIN down, so which ones are you referring to?

Hersfold? Flem? Elu? Or Byardkuria?
 
Tresville:
TWP was forced to reform by one of it's own because the regional government had slowly been failing for some time. Currently a new government is in the works and we will see if the community thrives once everything is settled.
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Are you referring to Eli? Somehow I think what he did was less reform than a ham-fisted power grab.

Secondly, in terms of debating forum reform, TWP is hardly better off then TNP, or possibly worse off. See this for details.

I think TNP should pursue its own agenda and not attempt to be a carbon copy of another feeder as you seem to suggest.

That being said, as I mentioned before, I have no problem with a forum reform, but what you are suggesting goes far beyond that.
 
Branching out into other games was a disaster for the Merit - it meant that the community fragmented, the senate died, and all that is left now is a forum for coordinating Ikariam stuff.

the Merit is dead now.

I think keeping to NS is the best course, based on that experience.

On another matter... IF restrictions? The only IF restrictions are on their TOS, which we have only had to consider two or three times in my years here. The relevant sections tend to be ....

3.1 Prohibited Content:
Users may not post, upload, link to, or email any Content that contains, promotes, gives instruction about, or provides prohibited Content. Prohibited Content includes any Content that breaks any local, state, county, national or international law. Prohibited Content also includes: (a) Content that infringes upon any rights (including, but not limited to, copyrights and trademarks); (b) Abusive, threatening, defamatory, racist, or obscene Content; © Viruses or any other harmful computer software; (d) False information or libel; (e) Spam, chain letters, or pyramid schemes; (f) Gambling or Illicit drugs; (g) Terrorism; (h) Hacking or cheating Content for internet/online games; (i) Warez, Roms, CD-Keys, Cracks, Passwords, or Serial Numbers; (j) Pornography, nudity, or sexual material of any kind; (k) Excessive profanity; (l) Content that is invasive of privacy or impersonation of any person/entity; and (m) Hacking materials or information.
Repeat copyright infringers will have access to InvisionFree terminated.
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Generally speaking this stuff we would want to avoid anyway, wherever we were hosted.

F.
 
The problem with a revolution is that they aren't ever particularly, um, "revolutionary". Nothing substantive actually changes aside from the names.

With regards to other games/forum moving, I agree with Flem. It didn't work with the Merit and all it does is fragment activity which isn't helpful.
 
Agreed, but a political uprising is another dynamic altogether. Unlike your standard by-the-book coup, this is simply - a change of approach to our current state of progress, as a general community. Mundane...probably. But I think its essential.
 
The Invisionfree restriction lie in the age of the forum software, the lack of substantial updates, and the inability to modify the functions and look and feel of the forum without restriction.

Invisionfree runs on Invision Power Board 1.3, a version of IPB that was distributed for free. Subsequent releases (which are a lot better, I've used them), were all tightly licensed. If we left this forum for another there would be significant technical advantages. We could use either IPB or VB, both very adaptable and powerful forums. Using our own server would also allow for better integration of scripts, which may make the game more interesting.

I've always been for moving to an independently hosted forum, but it could just be the web developer in me.
 
flemingovia:
Branching out into other games was a disaster for the Merit - it meant that the community fragmented, the senate died, and all that is left now is a forum for coordinating Ikariam stuff.

the Merit is dead now.
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That makes no sense. Ikariam brought more activity to the Merit than it had seen in some time. The community had fragmented a bunch of times and it had nothing to do with Ikariam. The continued death and revival of the Senate happened many times and it had nothing to do with branching out into other games. The fact that Ikariam discussions is all that remains in that forum proves my point. We need to try new things and make things interesting.

I think keeping to NS is the best course, based on that experience.
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I never said we shouldn't keep to NS. I'm just saying lets take the stick out of our asses and change, grow, try new things. The atmosphere here has not been conducive to change at all. I mean seriously...I had to poke, prod and practically put a gun to the head of people just to get the friggin 5 year old banner that we had in the forum changed!!!

Lets give the new, old and future forum goers something more than NS to do here.

On another matter... IF restrictions? The only IF restrictions are on their TOS, which we have only had to consider two or three times in my years here.
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Read Ators post a few times...let it sink in...then get back to me.

But people...listen....this is not me trying to get a new forum....the whole point of this discussion is to get people thinking and realize that we need to come together and do more here before we share the same fate as the Merit Senate or have to go through what TEP or TWP has gone through.

I'm not trying to suggest as Khark said that we "carbon copy another feeder"...my suggestions go way beyond what other regions have done. But I want to hear what you guys think...i want to see some brainstorming...lets come up with something..try anything...lets not just sit here and wait for things to happen. If something is going to happen in TNP i would like to see it come from something we start....not something we have to react to and finish like an invasion, insurrection etc etc.

I care...if you do as well...post, brainstorm speak from your heart. We need to hear from you.
 
Can anyone who has used the Zetaboard platform comment on how much and what kind of improvement it would offer?

In the short term, the TOS really isn't an issue as I suspect we would need the equivalent regardless of where this community resides if a move were made.

If we want to try the Zetaboard platform, and convert to it, I'm more than prepared to get the process started. But it's a one-way trip, If we go that route, it's not a IPB product. But at least the ZB has a conversion process. From my observation of conversions elsewhere to IPB 2.0, 3.0 and above, there are problems in converting, and in some instances, not everything converted successfully.
 
I used Zetaboards, and I didn't notice much of a difference.

I think it had better skinning options, but less selection or something. Of course, I'm not a ubergeek programmer admin, so I can't tell you if its intrinsically better.
 
TWP uses Invision Power Board - and has always looked very professional...so obviously it has capability. Or is that just Winni?
 
I vote number 2 all the way.

Also, Cathyy went rogue while we were still on s2. She took up the then Minister of Justice's idea of switching forums to s4 (a hideous brown conglomeration) on which he (MoJ) started a sham Constitutional Convention while he laid plans for the North Pacific Directorate.

It was only after the Resistance had power struggles with Twoslit on s2 moderation policy that they moved to s13, which initially was the oppositional headquarters during The Ministers reign.

Not that it matters at all to what you posted, just a chance to gloat about a time when the region was active under a Tyrant.
 
Glad to see some thinking about a new forum. But if we decide to do that we have to bring it before the RA as a proposal and discuss it in depth. Winni had given me a few ideas as to which software would work the best. This is not really what I was looking to do in this thread however. Like I said a new forum is just part of change...other ideas or support for any I mentioned is what I hope members comment on. It would show that we are at least accepting the fact that we have to shake things up in a positive way.
 
Other people have more helpful things to say about Idea #1, so I'll stay off it.

Idea #2 has been brought up in other places, as has been mentioned a few times already. The idea is to draw in people from multiple sources, not to spread an existing group thinly. However, when this is done the typical result is that the group commits primarily to only one game and leaves only a shadow of participation in others. If the game that this hypothetical split-focus TNP community focused on turned out not to be NS, then that community won't participate actively in the running of TNP. I present as an example the state of the NPO since much of its activity jumped ship to CN, although as others will point out shortly it was more complicated than that.

Idea #3 has traditionally been avoided by feeder governments due to historical precedent dating back to the original NPO takeover of the Pacific. What happened (so the story goes) is that Thedoc, the delegate predating Francos Spain, founded the Pacific Army region alongside the Pacific and many of those loyal to him went there instead of the Pacific. When Francos Spain turned up and started swapping, he was able to easily take over because those people were elsewhere.

This account has a few holes in it. The takeover of the NPO was the big event that made feeders aware of the risk of unfettered swappers, and so probability dictates that most of those in the PA region would have endorsed Francos regardless. He still would have surpassed Thedoc eventually. Thedoc's key mistake was his reaction to a flagrant swapper (ejection but not banning) and not the unavoidable fact that his region was vulnerable to swapping. After this other feeders started to take swapping far more seriously, some faster than others, although Francos' own efforts to excise it root and branch were comically overzealous and caused a fair bit of his initial bad publicity.

With the creation of Influence and the reduction in the risk of blazing midnight raids, it might be a good idea to put aside this aversion and take another look at the utility of partner UCRs.
 
Sydia:
"Things are tough all over, cupcake. It rains on the just and unjust alike..."

I maintain that the introduction of influence was a fatal mistake in NS. It encourages stagnation.

As for your predictions, 1 is possible. 2, I flatter myself, is unlikely. 3 is likely.

As for your suggestions, 1 I would fight tooth and nail to oppose. I don't think a new forum would increase activity one bit. A forum is a forum at the end of the day. 2 is an idea, but I can imagine us making tits out of ourselves if we go overboard with it. 3 is a very interesting idea and introduces a new feeder dynamic between us and our very own UCR and might be worthwhile following up if we can reach a consensus.
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Yes, you like the idea of having more WA members to feed on don't you?

You sicken me, pig.
 
Kandarin:
Savior:
Yes, you like the idea of having more WA members to feed on don't you?

You sicken me, pig.
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Mighty Riches? Is that you?
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No its one of the footmen of the current plot against TNP.

He's one of the idiots they try to keep out of the loop because he has a habit of bursting onto the forums like this to attempt to "help" when he finds out.

Here's a helpful tip- you aren't a good propagandist my friend, so stop trying to be one. Additionally, subtlety tends to be a virtue.
 
Savior:
You sicken me, pig.
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Sydia, I think that's apparently your cue to burst into tears.

Has anyone given the WA much thought? I think new NSers in TNP will be pretty interested in getting involved in this already. Well, this is how Gatesville boomed - with their whole anti-UN-the-beast spiel.

Even if the idea of bickering over legal clauses for worldwide legislation is not your cup of tea, the last thing the WA General Assembly is: is boring. Catapulted ambassadors, broken glass, little gnome lynch mobs, maniacal fanatics, snoring diplomats and full-on mudslinging fist-fights are not uncommon sights for this professional organization.

Also, there's a certain amount of satisfaction to be felt when one's long-fought-for proposal reaches quorum, and finally the vote - then passes to be enforced throughout NS. Especially if it sticks it fair in Gatesville's eye.

I think our lot are definitely intelligent (and insane) enough to perhaps get more involved. Its a whole different NS scene - definitely just as politically charged, but probably much fresher to our region than anything else NS offers atm.

Just a thought.
 
Someone on the internets doesn't like me!! Oh noes! Call the wahmbulance.

Back on topic; has anyone seen any effective schemes in other regions? Being the evil dictator who wants to feed off power and whatnot I'm not above shameless theft.
 
I would simply like to intervene in this discussion to contradict Flemingovia.

In fact, the assertions of Flemingovia are simply not supported by the evidence. Up until the Senate decided to intervene in Ikariam, the Meritocracy boards were dead. The engagement with Ikariam led to a burst of activity between April and June of last year. When recruitment from Ikariam finally kicked in, activity rose to a steady buzz of around 2-3000 posts per month for November, December, January and February 2008-9.

Moreover, as recruitment from Ikariam kicked in, the critical mass of activity meant that even social conversations began to take place, on top of the game ones.

There were two failings to these efforts. First of all, a lot of the responsibility for the game was based around a few individuals - myself and some of the new recruits, who became Senators and are now Meritocracy "old hands", a phenomenon unknown since 2006. The Ikariam game requires that more people than simply four or five officers take on small jobs. We never managed to delegate all that well, and in fact made the mistake of expecting activity to come to us rather than going out to the Ika-boards (the central boards for the whole game).

Our second failing was in not recruiting enough of the new members of our in-game alliance to the Meritocracy forums. Being caught up in inter-alliance diplomacy and war-games, we didn't devote enough effort to making things such that new people would automatically join in, leading to the further creation of well-rounded members of the Meritocracy, rather than just Ikariam raw recruits. A part of this, however, was in trying to rely on Meritocratic "old guard" members, who were simply unreliable as far as activity was concerned.

Flemingovia himself is criticising the Meritocracy from the standpoint of virtual inactivity, but in every particular he is demonstrably wrong.
 
Exactly. That endeavor brought new players in and currently old and new are still on the Merit forum playing. The interest in NS faded and finally died but the community there still has something else to get involved in. This preserves that community base and players can always come back and post and if interest in NS ever arises again who knows what can happen. The opportunity is still there.
 
100 posts a day for four months solid? That was not my perception at around that period.

I suppose you have your perception of what happened, I have mine. Ikariam brought a temporary boost to the Merit, but the consequences speak for themselves. within a couple of months the merit was dead.

With hindsight I feel we might have done better to have concentrated on NS1, reinvented a role for ourselves in that game, and focussed more tightly than we did.

But as I said, it is perhaps just a matter of perspective. I never got involved in the other games particularly, so inevitably my perspective is slewed.

I just think it is better to concentrate on doing what we do, well.
 
flemingovia:
I just think it is better to concentrate on doing what we do, well.
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Well is not the descriptive i would use for how we have been running TNP. Notice I said we and am not pointing the finger at anyone. We, I see as, the community here that comes to the forum to become involved in TNP matters. But that is just 1 mans opinion. What do others think?


I am not content with what we have done and I believe we can do much better. I have always believed we deserve better and I hope that others share this sense of pride and love for the region. I have always wanted new players to step up and for the community and region to continue growing. That is why I have never held a position of power here for too long.

We have been on a downwards spiral for some time. NS (I hope) will not decline further so this is the time to do something as opposed to waiting for something to happen to us. I am being redundant for a reason...take the hint.



Old Guard we collectively killed when we left s2. That term has been used as a political tool of attack...which is fine as it is part of the game. Patriots we have been since we stopped Twoslit and the ADN's control. The difference being that Patriots do whats best for the region as opposed to the "Old Guard" which is in it more for themselves (the specific group) rather than the whole. Most other feeders have a true "Old Guard" which is why they seldom get overtaken or do not go through the amount of rogues that we have had. Most TNP haters ridicule us for that...achieving a higher level of democracy is nothing to be ashamed of. I have consistently defended us in other regional forums on that matter.

Anyone who has looked at the RMB in the past week can see that tool being used again. Lets pay attention and realize that our citizens are restless and someone will take advantage of that opportunity. We cannot hold that against people who do this. Well I wouldn't...Just like I hold no ill will towards any players like Ivan, NPO, Gatesville and WW who have taken that opportunity. Tis part of the game....they play it well and that is why they have stature.
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I almost forgot....for those who don't know...the title of this topic comes from this quote by Dwight D. Eisenhower:

Here in America we are descended in blood and in spirit from revolutionists and rebels - men and women who dare to dissent from accepted doctrine. As their heirs, may we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion.
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All well and good, but the simple fact is we can't magic forum activity out of thin air. Have a gander:

From Alexa.com.
The trends speak for themselves. No one government is responsible for the downturn in activity. If we can even combat it effectively remains to be seen.

For the uninformed, am I to understand the Meritocracy recruited players offsite?
 
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