Proposed abolition of the Endocap

[WeeTiddler]

Proposed abolition of the Endocap and effective dismantling of the One Party State

At the moment control of The North Pacific rests in the hands of a small group of active members in the form of the Regional Assembly. One recent figure had RA membership at 41 members out of 2,435 nations. In other words 0.017% of the nations take part in the RA. Even taking in to account the number of dormant states this is a frighteningly low percentage.

Endorsements represent a way of gaining support from other states within the region as reflected by their active 'endorsement' of a nation. The Delegate is the one with most endorsements and is therefore the most popular and supported state in the region. By getting the other states to endorse (vote) for it a state is in effect being democratically elected by its peers.

The endocap effectively smothers accountable democracy in the region. The Delegate is not elected by the members of the region but rather by the members of the regional Assembly. The only way to become delegate is to be permitted so by the power of the RA- the effective dominant ruling party. What you effectively have is a One Party State such as exists in the real world in North Korea and Cuba. Of course a nation could attempt to ignore the RA and go for the position of the Delegate but they would be warned not to, they would then loose endorsements and subsequently be banned and ejected from the region- in other words purged.

The Delegate therefore has no other loyalty than to The Party. They appoint him and keep him in power. They will 'deal' with any other attempts by nations outside of the ruling group up to and including removing them.

In a normal free democratic country (region) elected rulers have to gain and earn the support (endorsements) of citizens (members). They have to be active and be seen to be working for the overall good. The endocap stops this, all a delegate has to do is keep The Party (RA) on side and he can effectively ignore the other none party members (non RA nations).

Even the general welcome on the forum talks about working your way through the ranks and how new members should not think about going for high office. In other words- join The Party and obey and you may rise within it.

Is it any wonder that RA membership is so exceedingly low?

Of course the Endocap is needed to protect the region from malicious and aggressive outside forces. After all every other region has one- so we must- right? Without the Endocap the Region would not be safe. Just like the Berlin Wall was merely a defensive measure on behalf of the German Democratic Republic (Communist East Germany) to "shield East Berliners from capitalist philosophies". We need to be protected from these evil outside forces that would be of danger to us. Mere free democracy is not enough- people might not vote (endorse) the right way!

Is it a mere coincidence that the Berlin Wall, like the endocap, kept its originators in power then?

Another coincidence that the GDR became a stagnant suppressed society with a largely apathetic populace- if you forget about the ones who voted with their feet and left?

So my suggestion is remove the Endocap. Return free elections to the region. If the Delegate works hard and is effective he/she will be elected by the region (not The Party). At the very least it will bring and degree of action and excitement back to the Region as people are forced to act and stay in power by actually doing something for the region and not the RA. Extend the democratic franchise to all in TNP not just members of The Party- they might even like it and get involved!

If we are worried about outsiders coming in and getting the Delegate position then work with the nations of TNP. Use the RMB for something more than a restricted advertising board. Speak to members of the Region, make the effort and earn election not appointment.

Of course this would greatly reduce the power of the RA but surely better to have a re-invigorated region then rule a stagnant shell?

This is meant as a constructive suggestion. I have been urged to get involved with the RA after all.

Wee Tiddler

 

[Vaticania Prime]

Radical but both interesting and attractive. Surely a realistic representation of democracy as oppossed to the pale imitation we currently have.

 

[mr_sniffles]

We don't have an endo cap first and second trying to find two RA members who agree on anything is funny enough but a one party state?

 

[Sydia]

Had typed out a massive reply but then my browser crashed...

This is based on some pretty big misconceptions; TNP has no political parties. It was experimented with a fair few years back based on a system the West (?) Pacific had in at the time, but died a death. The RA is no more a political party than the Houses of Parliament or Congress is; it's the legislative body which for sake of convenience is also our list of registered votes. Yes, it could be more active, and would benefit the region if it was. Unfortunately that's the nature of the feeder beast.

Second; endocaps/strangling democracy; Allowing the game to be played 'as is' in regards elections might seem fair enough in theory as the nature of the way the delegate gets into power is surely a democratic one; most endorsements wins. In practice however this goes down the pan pretty quickly, as the only skill a nation seeking the delegacy would need is endotarting. Their other qualities may be less than... desirable, they may require you to speak like a pirate and/or be boothappy, for instance. So we have the elections here, where you cast an informed vote for a candidate whose qualities are known. It's not perfect, but it's (mostly) worked.
TNP's endocap isn't too harsh either; TEP has 80, The Pacific has 25 (!).

 

[Rhindon Blade]

Wee Tiddler, you raise some interesting points.

Sydia is right when he says that the RA is no more a party than other real life legislative bodies, such as the UK Parliament. And you must agree when I say that the UK is not a one-party state. By the same token, TNP isn't a one party state. If that were so, our government would be a team. Instead, some might say we're more like a loose confederation of warring tribes.

So here is what I urge...join the RA. You don't like the inactivity and inefficiency you see. Neither do I. So become a member, and advocate constructive change from the inside out. You will be in a better position to implement change, and you will no doubt have the support of many.

But my advice is - just don't jump right in. Not yet. Work with those who are willing to work with you. I, for one, will. But I cannot do so if we intend to be so radical, and hasty. Such movements are often accompanied by gross misunderstandings, and will almost always fail before they take the first steps.

But I applaud your enthusiasm for revival. We need more of that here.

 

[WeeTiddler]

This is meant in the spirit of open debate not trouble causing but who has the misconceptions?

‘Party’ is just a term I have used to refer to a separate body formed of members that in itself elects the ruler and in effect keeps non members in line. Would Politburo or Junta be more acceptable?

“Only skill a nation seeking the delegacy would need is endotarting”- by that you mean gaining the support and effective vote of other members of the North Pacific. Possibly referred to as “Democracy” in places that allow the ignorant unwashed masses run their own affairs.

MPs, Senators etc are all elected they do not just turn up and join a body or group- much as you might say join the Communist Party in the USSR or the RA. As in both all you have to do is pledge loyalty to the body you are joining whether it be the National Socialist Party or the RA. So to compare yourself to an elected assembly like the Duma is inaccurate.

You have no elected mandate and from that you have no democratic mandate to appoint the delegate! The way to power is to work within the RA and gather support within it just like say Leonid Brezhnev did to rule the USSR.

By limiting it to those with what you call an ‘informed vote’ (RA members) you are effectively limiting it to party members or oligarchs to use another phrase.

“It's not perfect, but it's (mostly) worked.”- Again this is meant to be constructive but how has it worked? By keeping power in the hands of a mere fraction of nations? It may have well worked for you and the other 40 members but is that really a fair and impartial assessment? The vast vast majority of nations have absolutely no interest and why would they? Unless they join the ruling group (RA) they can never achieve anything.

The fact that other regions follow this pattern is hardly reassuring. Once Absolute Monarchs ruled the vast majority of countries- was that right too?

Sorry but the level of the endocap is irrelevant. The level at which dissent is dealt with differs but it is still dealt with!

I still stand by my suggestion allow full democracy – it will invigorate the region and make a change from the procedural discussions and word games.

Lastly thank you for entering in to this discussion. It is meant to be constructive. Though I do not agree with member(s) of this RA I have no desire to cause discord within it.

 

[Rhindon Blade]

These are indeed constructive words, Tiddler - and although I may not agree so fully upon some of the points you raise, I am pleased that you are willing to discuss this in a decent and civil manner.

I have no doubt that the words of the others here will be just as satisfactorily tactful.

 

[Sydia]

This is meant in the spirit of open debate not trouble causing but who has the misconceptions?

‘Party’ is just a term I have used to refer to a separate body formed of members that in itself elects the ruler and in effect keeps non members in line. Would Politburo or Junta be more acceptable?

No. It would be if the RA were an exclusive body. But since every and any nation of TNP, regardless of their views or background, is welcome to join this is not the case.

“Only skill a nation seeking the delegacy would need is endotarting”- by that you mean gaining the support and effective vote of other members of the North Pacific. Possibly referred to as “Democracy” in places that allow the ignorant unwashed masses run their own affairs.

The ability to click, copy and paste for a tedious amount of time does not a good delegate make. Left to its own devices, that's all NS's inbuilt democracy comes down to, and we live with the product.

MPs, Senators etc are all elected they do not just turn up and join a body or group- much as you might say join the Communist Party in the USSR or the RA. As in both all you have to do is pledge loyalty to the body you are joining whether it be the National Socialist Party or the RA. So to compare yourself to an elected assembly like the Duma is inaccurate.

The distinction between between registered voters and legislature is not made in TNP, and yes, compared to real life it is unusual. But, this is not real life. There are about 41 members of the RA. If they were elected, who'd vote them in? These 41 represent the members of TNP who are interested enough in policy and elections to join in the first place. Are we supposed to telegram every nation in TNP asking that RA members be voted in? This way every nation is allowed an equal say both in votes and the opportunity to propose new legislature.

You have no elected mandate and from that you have no democratic mandate to appoint the delegate! The way to power is to work within the RA and gather support within it just like say Leonid Brezhnev did to rule the USSR.

Since the RA is our list of registered voters, your comparison is flawed. It's more akin to the ability in liberal democracies of campaigning with the electorate. Not perfect, not everyone visits the forum, but that's their choice. No one is excluded from their right to vote, it's one of the guarantees given by our Bill of Rights - "10. Each Nation entitled to a vote in any manner under the fundamental laws of the region is entitled to the equal treatment and protection of that Nation's right to vote."

By limiting it to those with what you call an ‘informed vote’ (RA members) you are effectively limiting it to party members or oligarchs to use another phrase.

Again, you don't have to hold any specific views or background to join the RA. A 'party' suggests a unified outlook; the RA is a collection of individuals each with their own independent views (often diametrically opposed to each other).

“It's not perfect, but it's (mostly) worked.”- Again this is meant to be constructive but how has it worked? By keeping power in the hands of a mere fraction of nations?  It may have well worked for you and the other 40 members but is that really a fair and impartial assessment? The vast vast majority of nations have absolutely no interest and why would they? Unless they join the ruling group (RA) they can never achieve anything.

It's worked in that TNP used to be plagued with what we call 'rogue' delegates - delegates answerable to nobody but themselves, whose policies are originated by nobody but themselves, and against whom there is no appeal, no protest - say the wrong thing, get booted. Since the election system we now know who wants to be delegate and what qualities the member has, greatly reducing (but not eliminating - it's human nature to deceive, after all) the chance of this happening.
Joining the RA is not difficult. All you have to do is post this:
"
Your TNP Nation's name
(This is the link to your TNP nation at Nationstates.)

Your WA Nation's name
(This is the link to your WA member nation at Nationstates. You are not required to have a WA member nation, but if you do have one, then this is where you list it. It does not have to be your TNP nation.)

I, (forum user name), as the leader of The North Pacific nation of (your TNP nation's name), pledge loyalty to the Constitution, Bill of Rights and Laws of The North Pacific Region, and to act as a responsible member of its society. I understand that if my Nation leaves The North Pacific region for reasons other than for official government business, that I may be stripped of my right to vote and required to reapply. I pledge to only register one Nation to vote in The North Pacific. I understand that my registration of, or attempt to register, multiple Nations to vote in The North Pacific shall warrant the summary withdrawal of my right to vote from all my Nations, past, present, and future, as well as possible expulsion from the Region. I further understand that if any nation under my control directly wages war against the North Pacific, or allies themselves with a region waging war, declared or not, against the North Pacific, this shall warrant the summary withdrawal of my right to vote from all my Nations, past, present, and future, as well as possible expulsion from the Region. In this manner, I petition the Speaker of The Regional Assembly of The North Pacific region for membership in the Regional Assembly."

Here. Within a few days the speaker will get back to you and provided you meet the conditions you're in. That's it. No secret handshakes, no questionnaires on your views, just an oath to obey the laws of TNP and a check that you are indeed a TNP nation.

The fact that other regions follow this pattern is hardly reassuring. Once Absolute Monarchs ruled the vast majority of countries- was that right too?

Again, real life comparisons are not always apt to NS; my point was feeders do it because it's necessary, not because they want to.

Sorry but the level of the endocap is irrelevant. The level at which dissent is dealt with differs but it is still dealt with!

Depends what you classify as 'dissent'. If you disagree with the government on how to run the region, join the forum, get involved in the government and try and change things. Your retort may well be; "it's an old boys club, they won't listen to me," but if your arguments are good no level of experience will hold you back, it's like any forum anywhere. Most 'dissent' that is dealt with are actual threats to the regions; people seeking the delegacy with unknowable motives. Which is dangerous and undemocratic.

I still stand by my suggestion allow full democracy – it will invigorate the region and make a change from the procedural discussions and word games.

We elect our delegate, vice delegate, speaker, CLO, and other offices; 'pure' democracy is as unworkable in NS as it is in real life. The representative system is the workaround.

Lastly thank you for entering in to this discussion. It is meant to be constructive. Though I do not agree with member(s) of this RA I have no desire to cause discord within it.

No problem. I understand how bewildering the complex conventions and laws of NS can be.

 

[Ator People]

“A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.” - Jefferson

And that's why we have a republic.

 

[Byakhee]

It is fine saying that everyone with a Nation in TNP can join the RA and vote and that RA members can not be elected as such from the whole of the TNP, but how many democracies withdraw the right to vote if someone has not used this right for a while? To quote the forums constitution:-

Section Two
Inactivity
2. Assembly members who fail to indicate their activity on the forum by posting for over 30 days shall be removed from membership automatically by the Speaker.

I must admit when I first thought about joining the RA this helped put me off. In my spare time I only want to get involved with stuff that I am interested in to a reasonable degree. At the moment at least half of what I see in the RA forum I would not be interested in getting involved in or voting on. From this I decided the chances were if I joined the RA I would be going in and out of it like a yoyo having to apply again every few months. This helped me to decide not to join the RA.
To compare with Countries or Governments I don't know of any that withdraw the right to vote just because you are not active enough.
I believe that in some Governments, at various times and in a number of countries, they had members who hardly ever turn up. They only turn up for those matters that are of interest to them. With a lot of people their levels of interest dip and rise over time red tape like this just hinders peoples involvement and cuts out the spur of the moment involvement that has effected so much of history.

 

[Outer Kharkistania]

We have an informal floating endocap of approximately 85% of the Delegate's endorsements. In addition, we allow for people to go over said endocap if they have a special reason for doing so, and we probably won't eject anyone who goes over it unless they are blatantly trying to take the delegacy.

You'll find we have the most liberal endorsement policy of all the Feeders.

 

[Sydia]

It is fine saying that everyone with a Nation in TNP can join the RA and vote and that RA members can not be elected as such from the whole of the TNP, but how many democracies withdraw the right to vote if someone has not used this right for a while? To quote the forums constitution:-

Section Two
Inactivity
2. Assembly members who fail to indicate their activity on the forum by posting for over 30 days shall be removed from membership automatically by the Speaker.

I must admit when I first thought about joining the RA this helped put me off. In my spare time I only want to get involved with stuff that I am interested in to a reasonable degree. At the moment at least half of what I see in the RA forum I would not be interested in getting involved in or voting on. From this I decided the chances were if I joined the RA I would be going in and out of it like a yoyo having to apply again every few months. This helped me to decide not to join the RA.
To compare with Countries or Governments I don't know of any that withdraw the right to vote just because you are not active enough.
I believe that in some Governments, at various times and in a number of countries, they had members who hardly ever turn up. They only turn up for those matters that are of interest to them. With a lot of people their levels of interest dip and rise over time red tape like this just hinders peoples involvement and cuts out the spur of the moment involvement that has effected so much of history.

Several laws require certain quorums to pass; constitutional amendments need 2/3rds majority (I think); obviously if half the RA is inactive that's never gonna happen. A month is a fair amount of time, and you can always reapply, so...

 

[Tresville]

Moved to the Delegates forum until Tiddler joins the RA...then it will be moved there.

This topic is in regards to TNP and not NS as as a whole.

 

[WeeTiddler]

oops posted in the wrong place- silly me.

Still not convinced that TNP is ruled by anything but a self-perpetuating Oligarchy that discourages involvement but that is just my opinion after all.

Thanks for the debate.

 

[mr_sniffles]

oops posted in the wrong place- silly me. 

Still not convinced that TNP is ruled by anything but a self-perpetuating Oligarchy that discourages involvement but that is just my opinion after all.

Thanks for the debate.

You're not the first to suggest this, I proposed the same open election process four years ago. Outer Kharkistania, our current Minister of Defense, was part of a rogue government that seized power with the same argument except they called it the old guard.

The problem is that your argument has been used in the past to justify the worst abuses in North Pacific history. I invite you to learn about our history before you make more accusations or at least have long talk with our Chief Justice, Gracius Maximus, another former rogue Delegate.

I also invite you to learn about the other feeders, especially since you take exception to our style of governance. I'm sure our philosophical foil, the Pacific, will be more open to your endotarting. In fact given what I know about feeder politics, I invite you to the South, the West, and the East Pacifics which would not have warned you about your endotarting but would have had you kissing the dirt in the Rejected Realms already. The Pacific would do the same but they're pretty good at insulting people. Like really good.

And if you think my patience is worn thin, perhaps you shouldn't have compared us to the National Socialist party which is in severely poor taste. I know of no other feeder which would have stood for this.

 

[Great Bights Mum]

While I am fundamentally opposed to formal endo-caps, I must say that the notion that electing Delegates through the game mechanics is flawed. As has been said before, exercising endo-swapping abilities bears little relationship to possessing desirable leadership qualities. Furthermore, the game mechanics make no disctinction between an "atta boy" endorsement and an "I think you should be in the big seat" endorsement.

Does anyone seriously believe that every nation they have endorsed would make a fine Delegate?

Now, if the game restricted players to one nation - one vote, that would be an entirely different matter. Then the endorsement-gathering process could more closely model that of a real election.

 

[Blue Wolf II]

I too am opposed to endocaps.


Eject 'em all I say.

 

[Kandarin]

Unfortunately, the fact remains that the overwhelming majority of the region's membership is utterly disinterested in involvement with the rest of the region. This is not a factor of the sort of government that is present, for it has been the case for all feeders under all governments for all of NS history. Forty involved nations is actually pretty good. The remainder of the population, with some exceptions (if you're actually reading this, you are one of those exceptions) are deaf, blind, silent and care not one bit who they endorse nor who is delegate. They are not staying away from the forum because they feel excluded. They are staying away because they do not care and have never cared.

If you think I'm wrong here, if you've got some sort of magic formula to get the idlers who make up the majority of the region's population to get active and get involved, please prove me wrong.

No, seriously, prove me wrong. I'd love to turn out to be wrong about this.

 

[Krulltopia]

I also invite you to learn about the other feeders, especially since you take exception to our style of governance. I'm sure our philosophical foil, the Pacific, will be more open to your endotarting. In fact given what I know about feeder politics, I invite you to the South, the West, and the East Pacifics which would not have warned you about your endotarting but would have had you kissing the dirt in the Rejected Realms already. The Pacific would do the same but they're pretty good at insulting people. Like really good.

I heartily support this endeavour. I am more than happy to give an example of the latter point if needed.

 

[Gracius Maximus]

I have a friend in The Pacific that would like to invite you to his region for this debate.

Perhaps before doing so you could enter the region and swap a bit. He would really enjoy that.

If you wish to contact him directly send him a telegram ingame. The nation name is Pierconium.

 

[Kandarin]

I also invite you to learn about the other feeders, especially since you take exception to our style of governance. I'm sure our philosophical foil, the Pacific, will be more open to your endotarting. In fact given what I know about feeder politics, I invite you to the South, the West, and the East Pacifics which would not have warned you about your endotarting but would have had you kissing the dirt in the Rejected Realms already. The Pacific would do the same but they're pretty good at insulting people. Like really good.

Actually, the East Pacific in its current state would have warned him several times. He'd still be in the same situation he's in now, though.

 

[Byakhee]

I have not been in the other feeders for any length of time so can't comment on them, but think that these comparisons are a poor way of judging things anyway. Just because our laws and how the region is run might be more liberal than someone elses region does not mean that it is in anyway perfect. We don't need to copy anyone else, but can always go our own way.
I am not commenting either way regards to the original proposal just saying that what other regions are doing need not influence what we do.

 

[Gracius Maximus]

And they do not. I believe what is being expressed is that perspective, especially in regards to what others actually do, is sometimes necessary when carrying on certain types of conversation.

Having little to no experience in how a Feeder operates historically and then espousing the status quo as "bad" without actually knowing that things could be and have been worse isn't a very effective means of winning constituents to your point of view.

 

[Byakhee]

With the last comment I was not actually trying to win anyone over or saying that the status quo was necessarily bad. Obviously my message did not come across clearly, but I was just trying to put across a few points.

That using what other feeders are like at the moment as examples means little to people who have not been in NS for years. Not having the same experiences we have no idea whether TNP is at a high point and the best that NS has had to offer while it has been running, whether it is the best of a current bad crop which had better systems or if there are better regions out there.

If you want new people to come out with suggestion and add something to the region it will just discourage them if people are saying the equivalent of "Count yourself lucky me lad, things are worse over in...". Right or wrong they are contributing suggestions that should be discussed in terms that mean something to everyone. You can convince as many old timers / well travelled in NS people as you like with comments about other feeders and win anything that comes from it in the RA, but all it comes across as to newer or less travelled people in NS terms is a patronising pat on the head and "We know best now run along." I am sure (hope)these comments are not meant in this manner, but thought it needs pointing out.

If we just accept the status quo on matters as ti is better here than elsewhere things won't ever change or get better as it will stagnate with the only changes coming in response to rogue delegates. I was not even trying to argue either way with regards to the proposal, just trying to reduce the comments about other feeders that mean little to me in real terms. At the moment we are here in this Feeder so that is what is important to the discussion.

 

[Gracius Maximus]

Oh no, I believe you got my general meaning.

I know best.

 

[mavenu]

In fact given what I know about feeder politics, I invite you to the South, the West, and the East Pacifics which would not have warned you about your endotarting but would have had you kissing the dirt in the Rejected Realms already.

you get 3 notices in the south pacific when you're above 50% of delegate' endo with the proper link (http://z1.invisionfree.invalid/forums/theSPacific/index.php?showtopic=7344), then you get to kandyland (the rejected realms)...

if i catch them early enough, sometimes they get a 4th one, one which they receive after 40%, warning them about the 50% thingy, with the same link.

 

[Kandarin]

In fact given what I know about feeder politics, I invite you to the South, the West, and the East Pacifics which would not have warned you about your endotarting but would have had you kissing the dirt in the Rejected Realms already.

you get 3 notices in the south pacific when you're above 50% of delegate' endo with the proper link (http://z1.invisionfree.invalid/forums/theSPacific/index.php?showtopic=7344), then you get to kandyland (the rejected realms)...

The East Pacific operates on the same rules. I don't believe even one ejection turned out to be necessary for the gaggle of swappers who turned up after the Empire collapsed.

I'm not sure what the West does but it's not summary ejection, although that may depend on who is Delegate at any given time.

 

[Heft]

In a normal free democratic country (region) elected rulers have to gain and earn the support (endorsements) of citizens (members).

No, just the registered voters. In this analogy, the RA are the registered voters. That the percentage of potential voters who are actually registered is disappointingly low is not something anyone would really argue with, but it is not a reason to throw away all security measures and allow for a "free" region. The reality is that your suggestion would do nothing to entice the vast majority of nations in the region who aren't already involved in some way, and would very easily end with this region being truly not free (as opposed to simply having certain conditions now).