Admin
- Thread starter HEM
- Start date
Grosseschnauzer
TNPer
Having a delegate as an admin is dangerous and has led to serious, nay, fatal problems in the past. (the three Pixiedance Delegate/Admin come to mind.
One reason why from your end things seem to be slow is that there is a huge amount of tedious work that has to be done because of the constitutional changes, much of which has yet to be worked out.
I spent five hours working on this yesterday (the day before Christmas), so your assumptions about what is involved are just that -- assumptions.
The fact thaat you, HEM, and you, Joshua, have 24/7 to spend on Nationstates does not mean the rest of us have to. Everything will get done, but having a tantrum about it, which is what the two of you are doing, serves no useful purpose.
One reason why from your end things seem to be slow is that there is a huge amount of tedious work that has to be done because of the constitutional changes, much of which has yet to be worked out.
I spent five hours working on this yesterday (the day before Christmas), so your assumptions about what is involved are just that -- assumptions.
The fact thaat you, HEM, and you, Joshua, have 24/7 to spend on Nationstates does not mean the rest of us have to. Everything will get done, but having a tantrum about it, which is what the two of you are doing, serves no useful purpose.
Joshua
TNPer
The perception of the members matters Grosse, and if this is our perception of the administration team then maybe there is validity to it.
I am enjoying my time off from working 72 hours a week. Re-masking me takes one minute maybe two minutes. So, it is a fairly menial and easy task to take care of.
I do not doubt that you are working behind the scenes that is tedious and complex, but the everyday tasks should be ignored either. Which is why I was under the impression that TNP had several administrators.
The Pixiedance affair was a very unfortunate example of an rogue admin abusing their forum privileges. There is always a risk, and it is feasible that one of the current admins could pull similar stunts to that of the user(s) behind Pixiedance, it has happened yet, and it may or may not happen one day.
I still support the motion, and second the motion to vote on whether the lawfully elected UN Delegate of TNP should have administrative privileges on the forum.
HEM
TNPer
I wasn't even attacking you.
I was saying that you are busy in real life, which you just confirmed yourself. And that having another admin would be useful. Instead you get all defensive and act like you are under fire--quite like any other time this is brought up.
Calm Down, and get a drink. I was not attacking you or Flem, and as a matter of fact have stuck up for you several times. Don't jump a mile every time your performance is questioned.
I can't win for losing.
This thought has been on my mind as well. There have been instances where admin action is needed or warranted, yet has not been forthcoming without additional prodding.
Then when a concern is raised, the Admins seem to become very defensive.
Both Flem and GS have asked to be pm'd when they are needed. And they've commented that they do not keep track of new posts or threads on the forum, so they are not always aware. I find that in itself to be a concern, as to me it's part of the admin's job to be aware of what's being posted. At least that's how it has been on forums that I have administered.
If the current Admins are unable to keep up with the workload, then we need an addional Admin or two. Or perhaps existing Admins should step back for active members to step in. A critical part of an active and functioning region is to have active forum staff.
I withdrew my proposed Forum Change law because of my concerns for the lack of responsiveness and seeming hostility from forum Administration.
As to the point of the UN Delegate being given Admin access - I tend to agree. While under the old constitution, the Delegate had zero authority in the region under the government, the new one places the Delegate as Head of State and thereby head of government, and full authority over the Executive branch.
I do appreciate and understand the concern when it comes to the issue of a rogue delegate or in a situation such as with Pixiedance/Ivan. I was there, dealt with all that crap. I've seen NS off site forums destroyed by rogue admins as well. It happens. And there is no way to absolutely insure such a thing cannot happen. You simply do your best to ensure you have people that you can trust.
But no law or portion of any constitution can prevent any Delegate from starting their own forum and posting it on the WFE. A delegate that is frustrated with an unresponsive forum staff with no admin access may very well do just that. And might be considered justified for it, as it is the Delegate's responsibility to uphold the security and active wellbeing of the region.
But whether the Delegate is granted Admin access, or Global Mod, or whatever, I'm more concerned of administrative responsiveness.
GS, I fully apprecaite the time you've been putting in on the forum. It is a lot of work, and the results that the users see does not do justice to showing the amount of work put into it. Admins often don't get the appreciation for the work they put in, that they should.
Everyone needs to also consider that a new administration will have requests and needs for additional changes to be made, and there is little sense in making some changes that will only face further change shortly. Admins don't need to face a doubled workload. I'd just encourage patience until voting has concluded and results are announced.
On a personal note - I'd really like to see a different skin on the forum.
Then when a concern is raised, the Admins seem to become very defensive.
Both Flem and GS have asked to be pm'd when they are needed. And they've commented that they do not keep track of new posts or threads on the forum, so they are not always aware. I find that in itself to be a concern, as to me it's part of the admin's job to be aware of what's being posted. At least that's how it has been on forums that I have administered.
If the current Admins are unable to keep up with the workload, then we need an addional Admin or two. Or perhaps existing Admins should step back for active members to step in. A critical part of an active and functioning region is to have active forum staff.
I withdrew my proposed Forum Change law because of my concerns for the lack of responsiveness and seeming hostility from forum Administration.
As to the point of the UN Delegate being given Admin access - I tend to agree. While under the old constitution, the Delegate had zero authority in the region under the government, the new one places the Delegate as Head of State and thereby head of government, and full authority over the Executive branch.
I do appreciate and understand the concern when it comes to the issue of a rogue delegate or in a situation such as with Pixiedance/Ivan. I was there, dealt with all that crap. I've seen NS off site forums destroyed by rogue admins as well. It happens. And there is no way to absolutely insure such a thing cannot happen. You simply do your best to ensure you have people that you can trust.
But no law or portion of any constitution can prevent any Delegate from starting their own forum and posting it on the WFE. A delegate that is frustrated with an unresponsive forum staff with no admin access may very well do just that. And might be considered justified for it, as it is the Delegate's responsibility to uphold the security and active wellbeing of the region.
But whether the Delegate is granted Admin access, or Global Mod, or whatever, I'm more concerned of administrative responsiveness.
GS, I fully apprecaite the time you've been putting in on the forum. It is a lot of work, and the results that the users see does not do justice to showing the amount of work put into it. Admins often don't get the appreciation for the work they put in, that they should.
Everyone needs to also consider that a new administration will have requests and needs for additional changes to be made, and there is little sense in making some changes that will only face further change shortly. Admins don't need to face a doubled workload. I'd just encourage patience until voting has concluded and results are announced.
On a personal note - I'd really like to see a different skin on the forum.
R
Romanoffia (Guest)
Guest
Giving admin powers to the delegate is a bad idea as has been shown in the past. A delegate already has enough to do with running, protection, maintaining the region without having to be bogged down with the additional duty of administering a forum.
*sighs as TNP decays into a Francoist Union*
*sighs as TNP decays into a Francoist Union*
Joshua
TNPer
Oh god, really? And what about Two Slit who essentially forced us to move forums? At that point Two Slit was just the root admin. There are no guarantees, either way.
King Durk the Awesome
TNPer
Agreed with Nam.
Pretty simple solution, really.
Pretty simple solution, really.
Grosseschnauzer
TNPer
People forget that there are three global moderators who can do many of the things forum admin can do. GBM, DD, and Byarkuria are all Global Moderators for that reason. (And we removed Tresville as a GM because he disappeared.
In addition, the cabinet ministers, the deputy minisers, the Speaker, the Court Justices and the Delegate/Vice Delegate had moderator authority for various parts of the forum. Between the wo groups of moderators there should have been plenty of eyeballs to take care of things, and the GMs, and mods could likewise either post in special techincal forums, or send PMs if necessary. At the moment, due to the nature of the constitution revision there are very few moderators for specific areas, and just the 5 permanent members of the moderation team. We don't need more administrators, we need more moderators for specific areas of the forums. We could just strip all government officials of all moderator powers, and appoint permanent moderators for specific areas of the forums, but there has been a tradition of having elected officials handle the areas of the forum related to their offices. If the RA wishes to end that tradition, then vote to do it, and ask the moderation teams to make whatever arrangements we collective feel appropriate to replace elected moderators.
What many of you are forgetting is that you've chosen to drastically alter theformat of the government, and the technical implementation is not as quick and simple as some mistakenly believe. One of the problems is that the membes of the govrnment adopted a bare bones constitution where a lot of blanks areas have to e filled in by the Regional Assembly or the Delegate. Admin are not seers, we do not have the power of predicting what will be the final form of organization so we (Flem and I) can do what has to be done in the ACP.
In addition, the cabinet ministers, the deputy minisers, the Speaker, the Court Justices and the Delegate/Vice Delegate had moderator authority for various parts of the forum. Between the wo groups of moderators there should have been plenty of eyeballs to take care of things, and the GMs, and mods could likewise either post in special techincal forums, or send PMs if necessary. At the moment, due to the nature of the constitution revision there are very few moderators for specific areas, and just the 5 permanent members of the moderation team. We don't need more administrators, we need more moderators for specific areas of the forums. We could just strip all government officials of all moderator powers, and appoint permanent moderators for specific areas of the forums, but there has been a tradition of having elected officials handle the areas of the forum related to their offices. If the RA wishes to end that tradition, then vote to do it, and ask the moderation teams to make whatever arrangements we collective feel appropriate to replace elected moderators.
What many of you are forgetting is that you've chosen to drastically alter theformat of the government, and the technical implementation is not as quick and simple as some mistakenly believe. One of the problems is that the membes of the govrnment adopted a bare bones constitution where a lot of blanks areas have to e filled in by the Regional Assembly or the Delegate. Admin are not seers, we do not have the power of predicting what will be the final form of organization so we (Flem and I) can do what has to be done in the ACP.
Joshua
TNPer
With all those hands, I have posted simple requests in the appropriate forum and it took some time for my requests to be filled. I have seen the same with others. The amount of admins and mods is not the point, the point is how active they are and if they read the appropriate threads.
I am not attacking you Grosse or the administrator team.
I am not attacking you Grosse or the administrator team.
Grosseschnauzer
TNPer
One of te problems was that te last elected Cabinet, for the most part, did little with forum moderation-- and were generally hard to find, Several ministers never apponted their deputies. So a full complement of moderators were never in place.
There are no requirements for deputies now, and I think a discussion will be needed as to whether the head of Cabinet-level bodies will be required to appoint deputies. Then a decision can be made whether such deputies will or will not have moderator powers. At that point, the forum administrators willl be able to modify user groups and masks.
(Most likely we are going to need someone who can modify the current member badges to reflect whatever the end product is. Two user groups and their badge colors will have to be retired, as is (Vice Delegate and Prime Minister). The CLO, since they are entitled to participate in Cabinet discussions, will have Cabinet badges -- so that one will likely have to be redesigned.)
There are no requirements for deputies now, and I think a discussion will be needed as to whether the head of Cabinet-level bodies will be required to appoint deputies. Then a decision can be made whether such deputies will or will not have moderator powers. At that point, the forum administrators willl be able to modify user groups and masks.
(Most likely we are going to need someone who can modify the current member badges to reflect whatever the end product is. Two user groups and their badge colors will have to be retired, as is (Vice Delegate and Prime Minister). The CLO, since they are entitled to participate in Cabinet discussions, will have Cabinet badges -- so that one will likely have to be redesigned.)
mr_sniffles
TNPer
How about elevating the Chief Justice and the Speaker to Global Mod and they can hand it over after elections, if the people in the positions change?
Democratic Donkeys
TNPer
Because the issue isn't about Global Moderators? If you want a thread or post moved/renamed, or want to bring attention to offending posts, then PM me. That is within my power. Masking is not, and that seems to be the main concern here.
The premise of the original resolution is incorrect: That the admins are inactive. Both Roman and I are active. In fact, there are few days in the past four years when I have not been on the forum, and I can be contacted on IRC and MSN etc pretty much 24/7.
I think most objective observers would also acknowledge that Gross has worked incredibly hard over the past few days with remasking, permissions etc.
Once the remasking is complete, and ministers have their moderating powers, I am sure many of the concerns will have been addressed
I think most objective observers would also acknowledge that Gross has worked incredibly hard over the past few days with remasking, permissions etc.
Once the remasking is complete, and ministers have their moderating powers, I am sure many of the concerns will have been addressed
I completely agree that he's done a mountain of work. And I am grateful and appreciative of that. I've been thinking that we need to present him with an award for his hard work.
I also know that I would have had it done a week ago myself. *chuckles*
Do the admins have access to the root admin account ? It's really not a good idea to have a root admin account with an inactive user. Not good for forum security.
I also know that I would have had it done a week ago myself. *chuckles*
Do the admins have access to the root admin account ? It's really not a good idea to have a root admin account with an inactive user. Not good for forum security.
Vrtbovska Zahrada
TNPer
Well, in my opinion, making the delegate and head of government also admin is
I oppose it. And I see no problems with the level of activity of our admins/GM's, either.
too!
I oppose it. And I see no problems with the level of activity of our admins/GM's, either.
I have access to the root admin account.
R
Romanoffia (Guest)
Guest
I have an idea here -
Perhaps should have a division of Admin functions - That is, we have a 'technical administrator(s)' to handle the mechanics of the forum 9coding, etc.,,,; and a 'Moderation Admin(s)'. While the abilities overlap, each division would make corrections as to their particular function, respectively.
Perhaps should have a division of Admin functions - That is, we have a 'technical administrator(s)' to handle the mechanics of the forum 9coding, etc.,,,; and a 'Moderation Admin(s)'. While the abilities overlap, each division would make corrections as to their particular function, respectively.
Grosseschnauzer
TNPer
The global moderators already serve the one function, subject to review by the administrators.
So that distinction is already in place.
So that distinction is already in place.
Grosseschnauzer
TNPer
Don't know for sure. I did notice that most of the images used on the forums are being hosted on someone's account at photobucket, and I'm not sure what the problems is....since the new messages icon for forums is still coming through. The reason I think its a photobucket problem is that there page loading process hang ups during the image uploading process.
Joshua
TNPer
The marker for new posts is working though, so I'm not sure what's going on. [/QUOTE]
Sometimes those hosting sites purge their databses. The forums I admin, I have a graphics forum viewable to the admins only and I upload all of our forum graphics there that way we do not have issues like this.
I've had this problem in the past when I uses images hosted on photobucket or imageshack. Finally, someone told me to host them on the forum that I am using them for.
They may reappear or they may not. Either way I would try and get ahold of the images and start hosting them on this forum.
Sometimes those hosting sites purge their databses. The forums I admin, I have a graphics forum viewable to the admins only and I upload all of our forum graphics there that way we do not have issues like this.
I've had this problem in the past when I uses images hosted on photobucket or imageshack. Finally, someone told me to host them on the forum that I am using them for.
They may reappear or they may not. Either way I would try and get ahold of the images and start hosting them on this forum.
They were hosted by Hersfold.
I have e-mailed him.
F.
I have e-mailed him.
F.