The Pacific Issue

Blue Wolf II

Blue Wolf II

A Wolf Most Blue
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TNP Nation
Blue_Wolf_II
The Pacific continues to demand an apology and, frankly, I can't blame them. Mesian is spilling the details all over their forums (link) we really can't play dumb at this point. We either come right out and say that we will not apologize and we support the actions of the NPIA fully, which would more than likely get a hostile response from the NPO, or we suck it up, admit to it, and say we're sorry for the NPIA's stupidity.

Also, I want to talk about giving immunity to Mesian. He's just a foot solider and it would reflect badly on us if we prosecuted him. It makes us look like we set him up as a scapegoat.
 
*Gaspo sticks his head in to make it clear that he's paying attention but will refrain from commenting
 
I was going to ask if the deputies were permitted to post comments here or if we are strict observers of this process?
 
I've never held back from commenting in the times I was a deputy. Don't try to vote, obviously, because that would be stupid, but yeah. The way I look at stuff like this, if I can see something, and have the ability to post somewhere, I'm welcome to post there. If I don't have the ability, I'm not welcome to, so that solves that. I hate it when there's stuff that's like "Yes, I know you can post here, but please don't." >_>

</rant>
 
I can still remember Grosse telling me off for commenting in so topic because I was "just a deputy and not elected". In any case, we need to formulate a position on this, quickly.
 
My position on this seems perfectly clear, clear as crystyal. I personally am in favor of an apology and immunity for Mesian. Whether folks here believe his innocence or not, the events that have transpired are not putting this region in the best light. And we need to save face and try and repair our image.
 
Mesian should not be tried for his actions in The Pacific. He should be tried for releasing information about NPIA operations, which has damaged the international standing and reputation of TNP and the NPIA.
 
Haor Chall:
Mesian should not be tried for his actions in The Pacific. He should be tried for releasing information about NPIA operations, which has damaged the international standing and reputation of TNP and the NPIA.
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So, the other charges here should be dropped?
 
I also believe that we should just come out and apologize. Come on, what harm does a slight apology do when instead it can just save us the time and trouble of digging through all the consititutions and help us settle this quicker and get away from it as fast as we can. I believe we should give Mesian immunity and that we should atleast let this go and not have to worry about mentioning it again. We all know that he gave information about the NPIA though we have two option's:

1) we either just forget about the information and disclose any other information about it.

or

2) we can get our lazy buts in gear and settle this with an apology and get back together as one, a region, so that we may be back in power again and forget that anything has ever happened. So lets start on getting everything settled and back to normal and start seeing some changes that we can make to make everything better!

~Lt. General Galapagos Isle
Deputy Minister of Defence
The North Pacific Army
 
Either way whatever our course of action maybe, we need to collectively examine the NPIA and refine the workings of it, and make sure that there is more accountability for the NPIA and more oversight.

I would have to agree with you Haor Chall. While it is tough to refute the charge of posting publically classified information. I am not sure what could be done to Mesian. The only position he holds is as a member of the Regional Assembly. So, impeachment is not applicable anymore.
 
FWIW, I believe we should bring further charges against him and any other member of the NPIA implicated in the vote fixing 'scandal'. We need to be seen to be cleaning house now.
 
Haor Chall:
Mesian should not be tried for his actions in The Pacific. He should be tried for releasing information about NPIA operations, which has damaged the international standing and reputation of TNP and the NPIA.
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I agree with that sentiment.

However, although that release of information was illegal and should be punished, that does not mean we shouldn't take a close look at it.

His allegations that NPIA was unduly influencing votes do, in my opinion, bear investigation. I would be curious as to what the Prime Minister has to say on this matter, having the power to appoint a new Director as he sees fit.

To sum up my views here (NOT A VOTE)

Apology: For

Trying Mesian for releasing info: For

Investigating NPIA: For
 
Lord Valentine:
FWIW, I believe we should bring further charges against him and any other member of the NPIA implicated in the vote fixing 'scandal'. We need to be seen to be cleaning house now.
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What vote fixing scandal?

And from what I gleamed from this thread:

http://z13.invisionfree.com/TNP/index.php?showtopic=3119

It seems most of the cabinet at the time was in agreement that the NPO actions brought that NPIA operation onto themselves. And from most of the posts that I read there, there does not seem to be much if any condemnation of Mesian and the NPIA operation involving the NPO/SU.
 
Joshua:
What vote fixing scandal?
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Here you are, I had to look for it myself.

Mesian:
In regard to oversight, NPIA detested it as it hampered their operations, and was informed several times that any oversight would be met with efforts to go around it (i.e.: Seperate Forums and the such).
When oversight legislation was voted upon though, i was given direction to vote nay, and that all NPIA agents would do so also. NPIA swayed the RA, and is my belief it would be impossible for any real oversight to exist.
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Blue Wolf II:
Joshua:
What vote fixing scandal?
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Here you are, I had to look for it myself.

Mesian:
In regard to oversight, NPIA detested it as it hampered their operations, and was informed several times that any oversight would be met with efforts to go around it (i.e.: Seperate Forums and the such).
When oversight legislation was voted upon though, i was given direction to vote nay, and that all NPIA agents would do so also. NPIA swayed the RA, and is my belief it would be impossible for any real oversight to exist.
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Thank you BW, and if this is true then that is a serious offense and only adds to the woes. Can the NPIA agents be tried for this? I can see immediate fault resting Hersfold, I believe he was the director at this point.

The deeper we go, the more shit we find.
 
unfortunately at this point we know that the NPIA operatives were infact just doing what they were told/ordered to do and I dont believe that they should be tried for following order's. However, it does make another problem come up. What is happening with our NPIA right now?
 
So, correct me if I'm wrong, all the evidence we have about the NPIA authorizing this mission and the "vote fixing" is from Mesian alone?
 
I can see immediate fault resting Hersfold, I believe he was the director at this point.
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No, it was Tresville at the time of the vote and leading up to it.

Ator People:
So, correct me if I'm wrong, all the evidence we have about the NPIA authorizing this mission and the "vote fixing" is from Mesian alone?
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We could go ask the NPIA for it. I'm sure they will not: lie about it/ try to cover it up/ deny us access under the pretense of "regional security"/ tell us that they don't answer to the Cabinet.

I am curious as to who in the Cabinet, deputies included, has been or is a member of the NPIA.
 
Galapagos Isle:
unfortunately at this point we know that the NPIA operatives were infact just doing what they were told/ordered to do and I dont believe that they should be tried for following order's. However, it does make another problem come up. What is happening with our NPIA right now?
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"I was just following orders" doesn't cut it anywhere, I'm afraid. If the MOD told you to take over a region and destroy it, would you not be as guilty as they?

Mesian admitted guilt of his wrongdoing. If we find he did in fact vote nay then we have a pretty clear cut case.

@BW, I was NPIA a long time ago.
 
That is exactly why I think Mesian should not go on trial here for exposing this operation. It would discourage whistle blowing in the future.

Also, thank you Goal. Have any insight as to whether or not any of this is true? I do understand it's probably not relevant any more because of how long it's been since you were last a member.
 
Plausible if there was a seperation between the director of the NPIA and the PM. The NPIA is charged with protecting the regions interests and if they thought the proposal would weaken their ability to do that then I would imagine they would work against it.

This is speculation, of course.
 
No, it was Tresville at the time of the vote and leading up to it.
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I apologize for confusing my information

Mesian admitted guilt of his wrongdoing. If we find he did in fact vote nay then we have a pretty clear cut case.
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He pleaded guilty in the NPO trial and the charges there do not mirror the charges he faces here. Stands to reason he would possibly enter a differing plea.

@BW Hersfold contacted mid November about some bothersome intel he had about the HIVE and at the time it looked like it could effect The Exodus, which was my home at that point. He offered me a commission in the NPIA, but nothing really came of it. This was a very brief dealing with the NPIA.

That is exactly why I think Mesian should not go on trial here for exposing this operation. It would discourage whistle blowing in the future.
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I whole heartedly support this statement. Along these lines what if we can offer immunity to some of the other NPIA agents who may have been involved in this and really get to the bottom of things?
 
Author note: New discussions, new information since the original posting of this thread. I have edited some small parts to reflect this, particularly the ending, but because so much of this post was based on information held at a few hours ago I am leaving much of it un-edited. Just keep in mind certain parts may be outdated, and even contradictory with statements made later in the post. -UK

Until recently my personal policy has been "We don't care." Knocking the NPO down a couple pegs has been fun, but would ultimately become a hassle to our interests. I'm concerned that an explosive operation was conducted without the consent or knowledge of the Prime Minister, has blown up in our faces, and we are right now not even able to research the facts of it. I'm concerned that a formerly-zealous agent is now spilling reportedly-classified information to a foreign government that is yucking it up for all the sympathy points it can get. I'm concerned with a lot of things. Gaspo, it's fine, you can talk here if you've something to say.

A quick word about this post. Ah, Blue Wolf, as a general rule, please don't do that. And especially not in a foreign embassy -Regional Assembly Private Halls may be an acceptable location, but not another region's embassy. Thank you.


I intend my focus to be on setting affairs right in our own house. Before I get to that, I'll remark that No, I don't intend to provoke the NPO into a war and I do hope to set a few things straight with them. Who wants to join the Super Diplomat Crisis Action Negotiation Team? Inquire within. Now, with that said...


Eluvatar:
I would be curious as to what the Prime Minister has to say on this matter, having the power to appoint a new Director as he sees fit.
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According to a strict reading of NPIA regulations, I do not. Only NPIA members can celect their Director. However, I don't care.

Let me repeat that: I don't care.

Let me echo a few words of my predecessor on this. The Cabinet is not kept aware of NPIA activities. The Prime Minister is, almost specifically, not kept aware of NPIA activities or even made the beneficiary of its information. The public is not kept aware of any knowledge regarding the NPIA.

When the NPIA does something bad, never through declassification and only through something blowing up in TNP's face, who is put in danger?

Who is held accountable?

The Prime Minister -myself nor Grosseschnauzer- has 0 oversight over an agency of a government that we alone are supposed to administer. As Grosseschnauzer said, he (nor I) have the ability to view the NPIA archives to determine what in Mesian's account is truthful.

I have no knowledge of who is even a passive member of the NPIA in order to tell him to pass on to the others a request to elect a new Director, if it is not too much trouble for them.

This is bullshit. I don't care.

I'm a bit tired of having my hands tied behind my back this past two weeks. I am the head of government. I have a mandate.

"The Prime Minister shall have such authority as is necessary and proper to exercise the powers granted to, or to execute the duties imposed upon, the Prime Minister..."

The North Pacific Legal Code spells out a procedure for dismissing and replacing Cabinet-level Ministers. In regards to the Cabinet, I can fill vacancies and call for a dismissal of inactive Ministers. The NPIA Director is a non-Cabinet level position subordinate to the Cabinet and ultimately the Prime Minister. These points combined I think it is reasonable for the Prime Minister to act in exceptionable cases on behalf of the people.

The NPIA is not superior to the Legal Code. It is not superior to the Constitution.

If the NPIA will not choose a new Director I will choose one for them. I intend to place Lord Valentine of Vitrionia in that position.

Lord Valentine:
FWIW, I believe we should bring further charges against him and any other member of the NPIA implicated in the vote fixing 'scandal'. We need to be seen to be cleaning house now.
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If Mesian's quote is true, then it means the NPIA has become a cabal. It does not act in concert with or in benefit for the people. It collects information and engages in activities for its own sake. This is unacceptable. The government has its hands tied while it waits for this agency to take its time deciding how much, if at all, it will cooperate. The chain of command moves up, not down.

On hotheadedness: If I had my way I would suspend the NPIA from all activities, operations, even idle chatter right now and indefinitely while it is thoroughly gutted and cleansed.

But I've been told they finished their procedures for a new Director. I found out about this after the fact and in passing, but what can ya do? There is still much I'm concerned about, but I'm confident in the new Director so for optimism's sake I'm willing to see how things play out with him.
 
I was once sorta approached about joining NPIA, and said I was willing to serve, but never heard any more of it.
 
Thank you Prime Minister sir!

http://z13.invisionfree.com/TNP/index.php?showtopic=3119

going by what was said in the above posted thread it appeared that they were in a similar quandry. Mesian corresponded with Grosse and sent him several PM's outlining the NPO situation that had occurred. And Mesian made several statements further outlining things with it seemed the approval of Grosse and the present cabinet members. At that time. And the general tone IMHO opinion was that Mesian was not in the wrong. Grosse's statements most strongly gave that vibe away. Whether that is relevant or not I am not sure.

The way I read the posts in that thread I took the general sentiment to be that the NPO fucked up and basically asked for what they got. And this is the general impression I got from that thread which was involving the current PM and cabinet at that time.

And this is OFF THE RECORD as well.

How these events came to light probably was not ideal, lets be honest is far from fucking ideal. And whether you like how Mesian did this or not, he blew the whistle and it needed to be blown. We have the golden opportunity to save face here and clean our shit up. We have a chance to see how far the rabbit hole goes and fix the things that are broken. For that we should be thanking Mesian. Like I said whether you like how he went about things or not, he was the one who in part gave us this opportunity.

Apologize to the NPO, and appease them there. Further investigate the dealings of the NPIA, offer immunity to the lower level folks in exchange for further information that will aid us in cleaning up the NPIA and bringing those folks to justice, those who DESERVE IT!

Yes this is a mess. Yes this is not pretty. Yes this is frustrating and difficult and fucking pissing folks off. Like I and others have said let us serve this golden moment and clean things up around here, really clean things up.

I applaud Upper Kirby's declaration and the fact he is appointing a new Director of the NPIA. I hope the tough stance will work.
 
<off the record>

The one thing I have to say about this is that this whole fucking situation is completely absurd. Someone needs to step up and handle it. The NPO needs an apology, because at the end of the day, an agent from TNP fucked around with them on their forums, and that's not right. End of discussion.

Mesian needs to be tried for an actual crime, not for the bullshit charges he's on right now.

People need to stop threatening me with legal action for conducting a fucking political campaign. Every last one of us would have done exactly what I did, if not done more with it, so saying that I'm somehow legally responsible for exposing an NPIA op, even though I didn't know it was an NPIA op until after I exposed it, is fucking STUPID.

All of this is off the record. I don't give a fuck if it's posted publically or not, I'm speaking my mind. A vent of sorts, because this entire fucking situation is stupid and I've sat silent for far too long, out of fear of retribution. Hell, Grosse is attacking me every chance he gets, and blames most of this on me. It's almost as though he thinks "If Gaspo hadn't ever asked questions, this wouldn't ever have happened. Damn him and his inquisitiveness, and damn him and his belief that the NPIA has boundaries and should respect them!" It's stupid.

</rant>

</off the record>
 
Originally I edited this in to my earlier post, but for everyone's sake I will post it here. Sorry for any confusion caused in my attempt to ease confusion. -UK

I've been told they finished their procedures for a new Director. I found out about this after the fact and in passing, but what can ya do? There is still much I'm concerned about, but I'm confident in the new Director so for optimism's sake I'm willing to see how things play out with Flemingovia in charge.
 
Upper Kirby:
Originally I edited this in to my earlier post, but for everyone's sake I will post it here. Sorry for any confusion caused in my attempt to ease confusion. -UK

I've been told they finished their procedures for a new Director. I found out about this after the fact and in passing, but what can ya do? There is still much I'm concerned about, but I'm confident in the new Director so for optimism's sake I'm willing to see how things play out with Flemingovia in charge.
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UK,

Can you not as head of our government override their decision and choose the director yourself? As stated and as we all know regional law supercedes the protocols and regulations of the NPIA.

The North Pacific Legal Code spells out a procedure for dismissing and replacing Cabinet-level Ministers. In regards to the Cabinet, I can fill vacancies and call for a dismissal of inactive Ministers. The NPIA Director is a non-Cabinet level position subordinate to the Cabinet and ultimately the Prime Minister. These points combined I think it is reasonable for the Prime Minister to act in exceptionable cases on behalf of the people.
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You made this statement Upper Kirby and I politefully ask and urge that you follow through on what you have said.
 
Sorry I haven't had much time for NS the past two days.

Without having read past the Cabinet subforums, these are my general impressions. (Off the record)

What the fuck is wrong with our people?

Between Grosse going off on a NPO witchhunt at the end of his tenure and piling onto the crap that this Cabinet is going to have to resolve and Mesian prove over and over that he fails at some of the basic tenets of being in the intel community...*sigh*

Seriously, we need to shut Grosse up or marginalize him somehow or something. Despite our best efforts, the NPO can just hang onto every juicy morsel that Grosse gives them. He's gotta cut the crap with Gaspo and the NPO. The connection is tenuous at best and insulting at worst.

As for Mesian, wow. I've been trying to stand up for Mesian against some rather unreasonable charges (Sorry, Byard, but the charges right now are pretty much crap), but he is failing at being an intel agent. I don't care if the operation was illegal; I don't care if it shouldn't happen again. As an intelligence operative, you should know to lie always and lie effectively in order to protect your region from shame. Saving personal face does not take precedence, and going on a vendetta to force TNP to change or whatever crap finally borders on treason. You are a NPIA agent. Lie. Lie. Lie. Christ, when Gaspo asked you that damn question initially, you should have answered "I have no clue who Futur Knecht is" rather than have it all blow up in our faces.

Oh, and thank you for informing the NPO about the various details of the NPIA before you do for us. It's very helpful and very great for letting us save face. As I predicted, we're forced to go to the fucking NPO forums to find out information about our own fucking intel agency. What a fucking embarrassment. </rant>

In my opinion, these are the things that need to be done:

1) Make an apology. No matter where we may try to pass the buck, it is undeniable that an NPIA operative on an NPIA op was caught making a fuss in the NPO. No matter how fucking pissed we are at the NPIA right now, we cannot deny that the NPIA is part of our government, and we, like parents, have to take at least a modicum of responsibility for it. It doesn't matter if we truly mean it or not, but we should apologize for the NPIA sending an agent in on our watch and causing all this ruckus. We're sorry, and we'll promise that it'll never happen again (meh). Also, that we're looking into the NPIA right now.

2) Drop the current charges against Mesian. No matter how badly he's being an agent, he was still just a footsoldier. The buck does NOT stop with him.

3) Charge him with disclosing information about an NPIA op. You're expected to lie. Do so.

More when I come back from lunch.
 
We need to apologize, we need to mean it and we need to clean the fing entire NPIA completely. There was absolutely no damned need for the NPO/SU mission. None what so ever.

No matter how wrong we felt that to be, we had no business making it into an NPIA mission. The NPIA serves us and our security needs. And the NPO incursion into SU had no bearing or threat on our security. It was an unnecessary mission! It was not our place.

I agree with dropping the current charges. We also need to ask and get statements from other NPIA agents who can help shed more light on the dealings of our own intel agency. And promise that there will be no penalty for disclosing that or other information to us.
 
Ok, I'm glad we're all on the same page with dropping the charges and going with the apology but in order for us to have some light on this topic we do infact need some NPIA operatives to help make our way through this darkness surrounding us right now. For the safety of the NPIA operatives please just PM us the light and we'll post it but instead of saying who you are we'll put a different name (ex. Reno, Rocky, Salvester, etc...). We will not use your real name's/nation names, we'll make them up. So please help us get through this darkness and make this end quicker so we can go and do other thing's.

~Lt. General Galapagos Isle
Deputy Minister of Defence
The North Pacific Army
 
Flemingovia is the new NPIA Director. He has said to me, and I quote:
Flemingovia:
Could you ask the cabinet if I could have permission to post in the private cabinet area when there are questions raised which directly relate to the NPIA - answer questions that are raised etc.
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