Problem

[Upper Kirby]

Blue Wolf cut through the initial fluff with a steak knife. But while that was regrettable, some sort of answer had to be given, at least until a satisfactory one later. Link. My objection is to later posts, particularly one in particular. This particular post.

At the moment it is impossible for me, or any other member of the cabinet bar the Prime Minister, to make a strong comment on this- simply because we have no knowledge of anything to do with NPIA operations. Only the Prime Minister has access to what the NPIA has done and is doing and as such we are waiting on him to uncover an information regarding these allegations.

You are the foreign minister. Under an appointment system (such as the Meritocracy's, to not mention RL examples) you would be under the authority of and answer directly to the executive (in that case the Consul); under a system such as ours you are still obliged to cooperate with the Prime Minister and support him. This, your post here, is none of that. It is selling someone out to the vikings to save your skin. It would not be appropriate to address this on public and that is why I am posting here; it would be inappropriate of me to say nothing.

If it is truly your opinion that the Prime Minister is the only officer capable of commenting, then don't comment. Whatever flaws in the NPIA system we have it is too late to debate them now --discuss with the Prime Minister the statement he should issue, and then after, before, and during you should support him. Don't sell him out Don't play the "Wasn't Me!" game. It does not save you; it makes you look worse, and it damages our government.

 

[Haor Chall]

Take two.

Bullshit. Moo was demanding an answer from somebody official. All I have said is that the only person who can do so is the PM at present. It in no way blames him (because if there is any blame it lies squarely with the NPIA no the PM), it is an honest statement of fact. He is the only one who can potentially get to the bottom of this.

I haven't a thing from the PM, neither has the Cabinet- if we had then I would be in a position to support whatever his stance is but he has not communicated his position on this. If he had displayed leadership on this issue Iwould agree with you, however he has not. A response of some sort was needed, IMO, from somebody in a position of authority within the region so they did not think they were being ignored- as that would no doubt continue to esculate this crisis.

The idea that this is somehow "saving my skin" when I'm not a member of the NPIA or in any way informed about their actions and I'm leaving office at the end of this term is complete and utter crap.

 

[Haor Chall]

Just to add; if it seriously read that way - it was not meant to - I will edit it, I don't think anyone from Pacifica officialdom has read it yet. My intention was not to blame Grosseschanuzer in any way at all.

 

[Upper Kirby]

The idea that this is somehow "saving my skin" when I'm not a member of the NPIA or in any way informed about their actions and I'm leaving office at the end of this term is complete and utter crap.

You are the foreign minister. You are still the foreign minister for two more weeks. That is a lot of time for catastrophe to happen. Grosseschnauzer is leaving office at the end of this term at well --this apparently does not excuse him.

When the NPIA does something like this, whose face does it blow up in? Yours. Your handle external affairs, that is your job, your diploma, your title, your prerogatives and you as a person have guarded that domain like a mama wolverine.

Yes, it is probably a problem that position tasked with handling foreign affairs does not have oversight over a potentially-diplomatically-damaging agency nor receives the benefit of its investigations in order to have a better foreign policy. But it is too late for that now, and of course it wouldn't do to say "it wasn't really us, it's just our government is disjointed and inefficient!" or something of that kind. Sure, it's not fair that you are handed the flaming bag of turd when it's lit on fire (see beginning of this paragraph), but unfortunately that's the way it is. Ultimately the Prime Minister or the (absent) NPIA Director, because you are elected, but the MoEA must still with the Prime Minister in this portfolio and because you are elected you are very much answerable to the Regional Assembly.

A response of some sort was needed, IMO, from somebody in a position of authority within the region so they did not think they were being ignored- as that would no doubt continue to esculate this crisis.

I do see that, and it is understandable. I can gel with that.

But:

All I have said is that the only person who can do so is the PM at present... it is an honest statement of fact.

The way you did it --"impossible for me [the foreign minister]", we know nuthzing, "we are waiting on him", suggets you are just a know-nothing pawn. How is that not bad for us? There were other options, such as not commenting at all, or the oft-used "no comment at this time"/"we are investigating the situation (carefully/thoroughly/respectfully)".

They're playing two big cards here: One, OMG OUR FELLOW PACIFIC OUR BROTHERS OUR SISTERS THEY ATTACKED US FOR NO REASON YOU HATE US AND WE'RE SUCH NICE PEOPLE OUR FEELINGS WERE HURT SO BAD; and two, we are efficient, professional, and responsible, and you are not = you suck, you incompetent slackers. Darkesia uses the second to good effect here, while underscoring this is the subtle threats from "bad cop" Emperor Bovinus here. It is important that until the end of the hand you never show your cards, and always, always, keep our poker face on. This is where the base of my objection comes from.

Just to add; if it seriously read that way - it was not meant to - I will edit it, I don't think anyone from Pacifica officialdom has read it yet. My intention was not to blame Grosseschanuzer in any way at all.

Sounds very good. I can roll with this.

 

[Zemnaya Svoboda]

Firstly, I'm guessing Upper Kirby first posted this in the public cabinet meeting room. I''d just like to take a moment to appreciate that irony

Moving on, while I do see Upper Kirby's point, I don't think you can really blame Haor Chall for this. I think the governmental system as we have it right now has issues with keeping unity in the government-- each Minister being elected separately and independently makes them feel little need to work together, especially as the Prime Minister has very little power over the other Ministers.

 

[Grosseschnauzer]

The reason why I haven't said anything publicly about the allegations in terms of the NPIA is because I have been trying to find out what the facts are, above and beyond what Mesian has stated to me about it.

I have not been able to confirm that the allegations was planned or authorized by the North Pacific intelligence Agency. I can confirm that I was not given any information concerning such an operation, and I believe that if the operation was organized under the NPIA, it was prior to my first term of office as Prime Minister.

The director of The North Pacific Intelligence Agency at the time. Hersfold, has retired from Nationstates, his nation has ceaesd to exist; they are, for all intents and perposes, deceased. The current director, Tresville, has, at the time, eased to exist, and was not expected to return, and therefore, was not involved if this was an NPIA operation. His return to the game, and his selection as NPIA Director were developments that occurred well after these alleged events. I have been unable to reach Tresville for the last several weeks. While he did return recently, it was, apparently, several months after these alleged events.

My efforts to ascertain who else in the NPIA might currently have authority to act for that agency especiallly in terms of agency records access, has proven to be unsuccessful.

So I am unable to independent confirm these alleged events were an NPIA aciion, and I am unable to indepenndently confirm the statements given to me by Mesian.

Now these events, such as they were six months ago, and dealt with the actions of the NPO that most, if not all of the members of TNP felt were unjustified and illegal, namely the invaison of a independent soveriegn region by The Pacific to enforce an internal law of The Pacific outside its borders by the use of aggrssive force. Needless to say, I am not emphatic to the NPO's claims now, if for no other reason than they brought the issue upon themselves, Had they not conducted that invaison, then from the way I understand the allegations, these alleged events would not have happened.

If the Cabinet as a body wishes to issue a formal statement based upon the incomplete record, and when our ability to independently varify any fact is severely hampered, feel free to propose something for Cabinet debate and discussion. I will not however issue a statement that some will take as verification that the NPIA was involved, when I believe I do not have such proof in hand, to support the issuance of a formal diplomatic statement.

 

[Dalimbar]

Can the Cabinet see a statement from Mesian for ourselves, and go from there?

I honestly hate saying this, but the alleged action is indeed hypocritical and certainly deserves *some* response from this government. If what has been said is true, then we are in the same league as them, attempting to infringe on the sovereignty of another region for whatever reason it was. Mr. Prime Minister, I understand your concerns. We need to see all the evidence in order to paint an accurate picture of the events and the reasoning behind the events. I have not said anything publicly myself, because as you like to point out to me I'd be overstepping myself if I did so. However, we need to do *something* before they really grab us by the balls over this. If asked, I can provide a draft, however I would think someone in Cabinet more knowledgeable about this should present one.

 

[Dalimbar]

As Eluvatar pointed out in the Pacifican embassy, Mesian has presented himself to their government for trial. Also, here he states he will be seeking legal aid from us.

 

[Haor Chall]

What a fucking farce.

 

[Grosseschnauzer]

Well, I'not a member of their forum, so I can't seek what is in that link.

The earlier links were viewable for some reason, and since they banned Mesian from the region once, I would argue that he can't be subject to a second trial for the same act.

 

[Grosseschnauzer]

Well, I'm not a member of their forum, so I can't see what is in that link.

The earlier links were viewable for some reason, and since they banned Mesian from the region once, I would argue that he can't be subject to a second trial for the same act.

More significantly, the new NPA guidelines that Tresville posted, provides for certain procedures that may apply in this instance, but unless the current active membership of the NPIA proceed, per the new guidelines the NPIA has (per Tresville's post in the private RA forum), that sort of has to held in abeyance. Thus this complicates the picture since we can't proceed until Tresville returns, (or the NPIA selects a new director) or the current collective NPI membership decides to act.

Now, I've received additional information from Mesian. I'm prepared to provide what he has sent me to the Cabinet but it is on the condition that none of it may be shown to anyone outside the Cabinet for any reason other that the preparation of a statement in response to the NPO. It is still considered to be confidentail information, and I'm doing this only because it's not possible at the moment to handle this in any other way. Let me make myself quiteclear, if any of the information posted here that I received from Mesian is disclosed anywhere else in this forum, or elsewhere witout specific authorization, I will refer the responsble person to the Attorney General for indictment and trial.

So is the Cabinet willing to have that information provided on that strict basis? I neeed to have a yes response form four of the seven Ministers or Acting Ministers, before I will post it.

 

[Haor Chall]

...or the NPIA selects a new director...

Slightly OT, just to point out, constitutionally, the appointment of the NPIA Director is made and decided upon by the Prime Minister.

The Prime Minister shall appoint the leadership of the North Pacific Intelligence Agency after consultation with the personnel of that agency.

The PM consults the NPIA members, but he makes the decision himself.

Anyways;

So is the Cabinet willing to have that information provided on that strict basis? I neeed to have a yes response form four of the seven Ministers or Acting Ministers, before I will post it.

Yes.


Edit: A few thoughts, essentially all we have to go on that it was an NPIA op is Mesians word, correct?

 

[Grosseschnauzer]

There's something else Mesian found and brought to my attention. I want to have the Cabinet's agreement to maintain its confidential nature before I post it here. Mesian has also stated he wants a chance to speak with the Cabinet, which as a current Minister, he has.

HC, as to the appointment clause, it's more like the NPIA lets the PM know ho they want as Director, and approve it, I have never been told the NPIA roster, so I'm not in a position to pick-and-choose a director.

From what is in that guideline I've pointed out as to current NPIA procedure, it seems as if all of the Level one personnel act in place of the director when he is abent. However, I have absolutely no idea who those may be. For the moment, the NPIA is going to have to decide what to do. I think I've been clear that the NPIA collectively needs to do something, but I'm not sure what else I can do at the moment.

 

[Haor Chall]

There's something else Mesian found and brought to my attention. I want to have the Cabinet's agreement to maintain its confidential nature before I post it here. Mesian has also stated he wants a chance to speak with the Cabinet, which as a current Minister, he has.

Sure. Mesian can still post here, can't he? Lets get on with it.

HC, as to the appointment clause, it's more like the NPIA lets the PM know ho they want as Director, and approve it, I have never been told  the NPIA roster, so I'm not in a position to pick-and-choose a director.

From what is in that guideline I've pointed out as to current NPIA procedure, it seems as if all of the Level one personnel act in place of the director when he is abent. However, I have absolutely no idea who those may be. For the moment, the NPIA is going to have to decide what to do. I think I've been clear that the NPIA collectively needs to do something, but I'm not sure what else I can do at the moment.

AFAIK, the Constitution is THE governing document of the region so it trumps the Legal Code, NPIA procedures, etc. And it doesn't say you have to appoint a NPIA member as Director (kinda like the CIA Director IRL)... Although the theory is all well and good, the practicality of it may be different I accept that. I must admit though, I'm amazed that your "oversight" doesn't stretch to the names of a few of the senior members of the NPIA. The NPIA is a shambles, it really is. Either way somebody needs to get in there and kick arse.

 

[Mesian]

Even though I have access to this forum, I would like to point out I was waiting for clearance to post the following on the forums.

There has been much speculation relating to the nature of the mission that I undertook, and I would like to say that it is all wrong.

NPIA had no intention to meddle with NPO politics, as the events that occured in the NPO were actually simply part of a larger plan.

The orders from NPIA were to make contact with the SU, and attempt to provide non-TNP material support in the event hostilities continued between the 2 regions. I believe this was very much of the school of thought that we publicly had to remain politically Neutral, whilst not neglecting our defender morales.

At first, I contacted the SU via TG, declaring myself as a defender, willing to assist them against the NPO, and was quickly turned away believed to be an NPO spy.

After which, I then used an old NPO account (and subsequently that nation) to begin to hassle the NPO administration, knowing I would then be declared a 'heretic'.

After this persona was established, I was able to gain 'sancutary' and the trust of the SU, and it was from this position I was able to then organise a group of mercs, residing at an F.O.B in case of a counter attack.

This never eventuated, and the troops were stood down. Futur was placed in a hibernation region until it was used in the liberations of Sea Land, and handed over to those natives to increase the possibility of regional survival.

As you can see, no intent existed to actually disrupt the NPO domestically at all. The claims of NPIA trying to influence NPO members through a 'lone voice' as suggested is absurd, and any persuausion which occured was done accidently.

I trust these details of this mission remain confidential, and until given permission to fdo so, will not be released to the public.

Two (2) copies of PMs sent hasve been tended to Gross for evidence, but will wait for him to release them as he sees fit.

I apologise for the concequences of my actions, though, do not regret them. If there is any way I can be of help, please let me know, but until then, I will adopt a policy of silence because my mouth has done to much talking, though, those members of the forum who continue to talk without knowledge are only creating more problems, and as a result of their flawed knowledge, are drawing different conclusions ultimatley on what was a simple mission.

I understand admission to such an operation shows that NPIA (or at least NPIA through me) were willing to come through indirect conflict with the NPO, which again on top of that, can be considered even more worse.

Also, just remember Gross is doing the best he can, as due to the political and strategic minefield of this mission both in its time, and now, omission of its existence from NPIA status reports (If they existed) were (at the time) seen as more strategicaly secure for the region (i.e.: The government (PM) himself could not be blamed for this mission authorisation), and that no-one would really take a fall. That has changed.

In regard to the warrant, I have presented myself to the region as an individual, not as a representitive of the North Pacific Government or NPIA. I will seek legal advice soon from a friend within the NPO, though, would like to assure the cabinet that I am in the NPO to account directly for my actions on the forum, that is it, not the operation, nor will any of the above details be mentioned in an enviroment in which their release cannot be controlled (i.e.: TNP Forums).
I know the verdict and punishment already, so this show trial will hopefully be part of the bandage on a healing wound.


Mesian

 

[Byardkuria]

Let's see the goods - my discretion is assured.

 

[Gaspo]

Sorry for not posting any promise not to share; I've been staying out of the conversation for obvious reasons.

 

[Upper Kirby]

Upper Kirby does hereby solemnly affirm that he will zip his lips.

Sorry for not posting any promise not to share; I've been staying out of the conversation for obvious reasons.

Well now that you've participated, where's your promise?

 

[Gaspo]

It was implied, but ok...

I PROMISE NOT TO SHARE WHATEVER STUFF SHOWS UP HERE ANYWHERE ELSE OUTSIDE OF HERE. IN OTHER WORDS, I'LL BEHAVE LIKE I ALWAYS DO.

>_>

 

[Grosseschnauzer]

Other than myself and Mesian, we have UK, HC, Byard, and Gaspo. So that's 6 of the 8 voting minister. So let me work on extracting the code for the creenshots, and I'll get them up asap.

 

[Grosseschnauzer]

This is the material than Mesian provided to me concerning the activities he had in the NPO.

Feelings were expressed in regard to the worrying nature of the actions the NPO had taken against the Supreme Union.

- Some believed that this was the begining of an NPO campaign to annex several userite, Founder  CTE regions

- I was tasked to make contact with the Supreme Union, to assist in the event of a war with the NPO, or if the NPO launched an assualt against several regions, attempt to engineer a stalemate to allow other regions to increase security

- The reason the things were posted were to prompt a trial, so it could be used to gain the confidence of the Supreme Union when I approached them as a non-NPIA random wanting to help. It worked, as first attempts were dismissed as me being an NPO spy.

- Several mercenary organisations had been recruited, and placed on standby, who were stood down when the threat had dissapeared

- When it became apparant, the NPO had no intentions of launching a large campaign, I was ordered to cease and desis, and the mercs (as stated) were stood down.

- Futur was placed in hibernation, and not used until I assisted with the Sea Land campaign.

Mesian then sent me a message attching this screenshot of a message he had archived from Hersfold:

For the moment, that is all I have received from anyone. I want the Cabinet to review this material including the content of the screenshots. And I would like to hear from the Cabnet what sort of statement is appropriate.

The second screenshot with the private message from Hersfold to Mesian is significant because Hersfold quoted the part of Mesian's message referring to an operation concerning the Supreme Union, and not directed primarily at the NPO.

 

[Zemnaya Svoboda]

Were there other regions against which NPO had a similar causus bellum?

 

[Gaspo]

Were there other regions against which NPO had a similar causus bellum?

I'm staying out of the discussion in this thread, but as far as facts are concerned, I will say that the SU situation was unique. It was up to that point, and remains still, the only instance in which the NPO has taken action such as it did at that time. It's not like the SU incident was a continuation of any preestablished pattern.

 

[Mesian]

I will say that the SU situation was unique

As is the one discussed.

I understand the problem this issue has casued, and that evidence wise, there is not alot to go on, but I will make a statement now saying that all I have said to the cabinet, and submitted to the PM is true.

I only ask that the cabinet decide whether or not they will issue a statement, and if so, do so with haste. History favours to remember the mistakes we make, rather then the achievments, so lets not make one now.

I will continue to maintain the relative silence I have attempted to hold since the issue first came to light, and do not wish to continue to sit by why I watch others speculate and insult me, and what I would like to think is, my relativly ok service to this region.

The NPO it appears are awaiting a statement from TNP either way before starting the trial.

I am not saying believe me, all I am saying is just get a statment out. Good or Bad, its better then none at all!

Keeping it Real

Mesian

 

[Grosseschnauzer]

I need to know what the Cabinet wishes to do about a statement, and if a statement is to be made, we need to agree upon it as soon as possible.

I will make the following comments, since I've given everyone a couple of days to think through this.

First, knowing Hersfold, I am sure that the primary concern was the threat to the Supreme Union and not the NPO, and that was the concern that were implied in the two PMs that were screenshots. The agent's participation in the NPO apparently was an gray area of operation to gain confidence of Supreme Union members and was not directed at the NPO as such. And it appears that this change in the original plan was approved by Hersfold as NPIA director.

We don't have anything at the point to confirm those implications. I am conformable in saying the actual activity was directed towards the Supeme Union, and the dispute they had with the NPO. i am confortable in saying that it does not seem out of the realm of reasonableness for a field agent to use available options in the NPO in order to get a sucesssfl impact
to the Supreme Union. I also think it is reasonable to state the the operation appeared to indicentally involve the NPO.

It is also reasonable in my opinion for the NPIA to have concerns about whether the NPO has some sort of larger plan at work of which the Supreme Uniion might have been the first step.

Notwithstanding the NPO's denial it is clear that the current problem would not have arisen had the NPO not chosen to use force against an independent soverign region, In my mind, if th NPO thinks they are ntitled to an apology from the NPO, the res of Nationstates, including The North Pacific is equally entitled to an apology for its use of force against the Supreme Union. I'll be content to issue a pro forma apology if and only if the NPO makes an apology for its action first. THe NPO mast acknowledge that its activitie and conduct were the trigger thatled to the activities undertaken by an agent of the NPIA. So any statement including any form of apology, in my min, requires an NPO apology for its conduct in the Supreme Union,

Any comments, reactions, alternatives, or suggestions for s statement .? Do not forget eill need to resolve this by the 8th,

 

[Grosseschnauzer]

I need to know what the Cabinet wishes to do about a statement, and if a statement is to be made, we need to agree upon it as soon as possible.

I will make the following comments, since I've given everyone a couple of days to think through this.

First, knowing Hersfold, I am sure that the primary concern was the threat to the Supreme Union and not the NPO, and that was the concern that were implied in the two PMs that were screenshots. The agent's participation in the NPO apparently was an gray area of operation to gain confidence of Supreme Union members and was not directed at the NPO as such. And it appears that this change in the original plan was approved by Hersfold as NPIA director.

We don't have anything at the point to confirm those implications. I am conformable in saying the actual activity was directed towards the Supeme Union, and the dispute they had with the NPO. i am confortable in saying that it does not seem out of the realm of reasonableness for a field agent to use available options in the NPO in order to get a sucesssfl impact
to the Supreme Union. I also think it is reasonable to state the the operation appeared to indicentally involve the NPO.

It is also reasonable in my opinion for the NPIA to have concerns about whether the NPO has some sort of larger plan at work of which the Supreme Uniion might have been the first step.

Notwithstanding the NPO's denial, it is clear that the current problem would not have arisen had the NPO not chosen to use force against an independent soverign region, In my mind, if the NPO thinks they are entitled to an apology from TNP, then the rest of Nationstates, including The North Pacific is equally entitled to an apology for the NPO's use of force against the Supreme Union. I'll be content to issue a pro forma apology if and only if the NPO makes an apology for its action first. THe NPO must acknowledge that its activities and conduct were the trigger that led to the activities undertaken by an agent of the NPIA. So any statement including any form of apology, in my mind, requires an NPO apology for its conduct in the Supreme Union,

Any comments, reactions, alternatives, or suggestions for s statement .? Do not forget we'ill need to resolve this by the 8th,


Edited to ix all the typos, since I typed the post originally at 1:30 in the morning, which is a little late for me.

 

[Zemnaya Svoboda]

So... having someone go and flame them to try to manipulate them into getting them to ban him is less wrong than them invading a region?

I understand asking NPO to apologize to Supreme Union, but to all of NationStates? How was NPO harming us much less all of NationStates?

I understand I cannot vote on this matter but I have trouble understanding Grosseschnauzer here.

 

[Haor Chall]

I understand I cannot vote on this matter but I have trouble understanding Grosseschnauzer here.

You aren't the only one.

 

[Grosseschnauzer]

The point about the need for an NPO apology is this -- the reactions of the NPIA to conduct an operation toward Supreme Union was in direct response to the NPO's actions outside the Pacific that raised the spectre that it was the first step in a wider form of aggressive intervention in other regions.

The NPO's actions posed a threa to the rest of Nationstates; and they are solely responsible for that.

That also helps explain my reasoning that but for the NPO's conduct, the NPIA operation would not have occurred. So the blame game should point back directly at the NPO.