WotN Break Ties with LWU!

This is not an issue of fear, although I can understand how it would suit to to characterise it as such. But I am tired of raiders and their sympathisers stating or implying that members of TNP are cowards.

We have not, for some time now, prevented members of TNP being part of raider organisations.

But there is a differnence between that and encouraging a raider organisation to operate out of TNP. That is not welcome, from me at least.
 
Darkesia:
Now, I'm a bit confused. On one hand you are saying that TNP is traditionally a defender region, so it should stay that way. And on the other hand you're saying that TNP has little impact or participation in the invade/defend game and should be allowed to stay "isolated."

Seems to me you're just afraid of change.

I know this is a big step for some of you and it's difficult. But when you look at it honestly, you have been following a policy of "don't ask-don't tell" here for some time. And we Americans know how hypocritical that makes us feel. Instead of making raiders hide out in the region in order to take part in feeder politics, why not accept them for who they are?
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First of all, I never said that TNP was traditionally a defender region, though I do believe it is. (So I guess I said it there. Heh.) As to whether or not it should stay that way, it is for the greater region to decide. Involvement in the greater invade/defend game is for the region and government to decide. Therefore, involvement in these matters may change from administration to administration and vary over the course of time. As far as the amount of impact that TNP can therefore effect, it will also vary over time. As far as how important that impact is to the people and government of TNP, that will likewise vary with time and attitude. If isolation is the flavor of the month, so be it.

Personally, I think change would be interesting, but I can definitely see how others would be against this. For example, if I was in the government, for one, I would be more inclined to err on the side of caution, as the "tried-and-true" and stable is generally preferable to something that seeks to cause disruption and caters to my whimsy.

By the way, "don't ask, don't tell" has always been a part of governance. Official deniability allows a rough attainment of the best of both worlds. What would make us feel great as individuals might not be the best course of action for the region, as a whole. That is the price of governance; that is the price of keeping face. Hypocritical? Yes. But when it comes down to big decisions, the moral high ground will most often be shelved against practicality.
 
Flemmy:
But I am tired of raiders and their sympathisers stating or implying that members of TNP are cowards.
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Hey, don't look at me, I didn't imply anything or know that all these people were coming. Otherwise I would have worn something nice...and put out some nachos.

For the record, we don't want to change the government, although it would be nice. We just want the right to exist, now if the only way we can survive is to try to change the establishment than it will be tried. But we try to avoid such things.
 
You have no right to exist, your existence would disprove our heritage and long history on the non-existence of raiders.
 
wuffles:
Hey, don't look at me, I didn't imply anything or know that all these people were coming. Otherwise I would have worn something nice...and put out some nachos
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I agree. Raiders ARE like hives. Scratch one and you end up with a rash.

wuffles:
For the record, we don't want to change the government, although it would be nice. We just want the right to exist, now if the only way we can survive is to try to change the establishment than it will be tried. But we try to avoid such things.
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mmmm. Threats. They give me such a warm, fuzzy feeling.

If you do not exist, how are you speaking? Beyond that, show me one way in which the government of TNP could prevent you from existing? I have looked for that button on the admin CP, but cannot find it.

Hyperbole and exaggeration. A straw man guaranteed to get a knee-jerk response from Mr Sniffles. And, oh look, it worked!
 
Well, what I am mainly referring to is talk of shutting the whole thing down, criminal prosecution, threats, spy missions, and other things aimed at trying to destroy WotN before it really gets a chance to do anything, for better or for worse. In that regard we are fighting for our right to exist, and yes, we do have a right, just as the NPA does. The difference being one is government approved and one is not but that shouldn't be a problem, as there have always been forums and organizations in TNP that where not government approved. It's actually a long standing tradition if you think about it.
 
wuffles:
Well, what I am mainly referring to is talk of shutting the whole thing down, criminal prosecution, threats, spy missions, and other things aimed at trying to destroy WotN before it really gets a chance to do anything, for better or for worse.
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And pretty much the only people bigging up such talk are the raiders. You are the only ones I have heard talk much about such things.

Paranoia ill becomes you.
 
Oh! So you're ok with WotN, then. And there won't be any more threats, public or private. And WotN can exist in TNP without further offcially sanctioned persecution or fear of trumped up prosecution. And we will all see if it fails or suceeds on it's own.

How lovely! I surely did not expect you, of all people, to take such a 180, Flem. Thank you.

:eyebrow:
 
In that regard we are fighting for our right to exist, and yes, we do have a right, just as the NPA does.
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What gives you the right, to move into a region without any prior permission or even notice and set up an invader group in a region that has always defended?
 
Darkesia:
The constitution which provides the right to assemble.
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That is absolutely correct.

2) Each member Nation shall refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any other nation or region in a manner inconsistent with the Constitution of The North Pacific.
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Likewise, you also have to follow that. Since the WotN is neither the NPA nor the NPIA, WotN members would be breaking TNP law, and TNP would be free to ignore, prosecute, and eject WotN members as the courts and executive powers allow.

So, no. The WotN does not have a right to legally exist. But no one can stop you from founding it. At the same time, no one can stop us from weeding you out.
 
Please explain to me where I have threatened or used force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any other nation or region in a manner inconsistent with the Constitution of The North Pacific.

Please explain how I am not permitted to exist, and how that attitude is not threatening my political independence.

Please explain what is "inconsistent with the Constitution of The North Pacific" in my desire to exist?

You are saying I can have the right to assemble as long as it's in the kind of group you approve of and does not threaten to expand your horizons or ease tensions between you and your imagined enemy.... right?

Here people: All I really want is for you to be honest and courageous. If you want raiders out, make the damn law already. Quit trying to be completely liberal and tolerant when you aren't. Suck it up and look in the mirror. Accept it and move on.
 
You're a dork. Who cares what a dork thinks? I don't.
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Im a 17 year old playing an internet game. Fair enough point.

I would like to apoligise for my tone and I could of expressed my opinion better. Sorry flem some of us cant express ourselves as eloquently as you.

How many of the powerful figures in the NPO were Pacificans, born and bred? I'm not going to pull numbers out of my ass, but I would forward that there's a shit ton of them that have migrated to the Pacific from other regions during their NS playtime due to the NPO's unique playstyle and attitude. Still--that works for them, and if that's what they want and they're happy with it, good on them. TNP functions differently.
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Fair enough and I know TNP fuctions differently to the NPO. I was a long term supporter of most of the anti francoist movements and also a member of the TNP underground I know the differences, im just rather peeved at the fact TNP has so much potential to be as influential as the NPO and yet it does not seem to be. Why is that? I haven’t a notion. Regions im in at the moment are struggling to fill cabinets and yet we still would rush to the defence of TNP

"Boring" it may be, but safe
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.

Safety is what kills regions. My home region “North Pacific” is founderless and our most active times have come just after invasions or the threat of internal rebellion. Now that we are relatively safe we are inactive.
 
Please explain what is "inconsistent with the Constitution of The North Pacific" in my desire to exist?
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Again, this assumption, this time from Darkesia, that we can somehow prevent people from existing. I am STILL puzzled how you think we can do that.

The current theory is that we would do it by some sort of internet time warp thingy. We go back in time and shoot your great great grandmother, and watch you slowly fade out of a family photograph, like they did in "Back to the Future."
 
Darkesia:
Please explain to me where I have threatened or used force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any other nation or region in a manner inconsistent with the Constitution of The North Pacific.

Please explain how I am not permitted to exist, and how that attitude is not threatening my political independence.

Please explain what is "inconsistent with the Constitution of The North Pacific" in my desire to exist?
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You haven't, but any member of WotN would be violating the terms of regional membership set forth by the Constitution. Each nation has a right to exist. Nations that do not follow the rules of the region do not have a right to exist within the region (or whatever is allowed by law).

Darkesia:
You are saying I can have the right to assemble as long as it's in the kind of group you approve of and does not threaten to expand your horizons or ease tensions between you and your imagined enemy....  right?

Here people:  All I really want is for you to be honest and courageous.  If you want raiders out, make the damn law already.  Quit trying to be completely liberal and tolerant when you aren't.  Suck it up and look in the mirror.  Accept it and move on.
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There are very few guidelines on what isn't allowed of a TNP nation. In fact, this is about the only one. The region's quite liberal, though not completely so, and, unfortunately for you, not in the way that you desire.

TNP already allows nations with raider personalities to take an active part in its government. Sure, there have been movements to eliminate duality, but so far, none have passed. People who raid (but not on their TNP persona) are welcome; raider organizations are contrary to the spirit of TNP and are not welcome. If every member of WotN signed up for the RA under different personas, they would be welcome; however, the WotN organization itself (and the personas that form it) will still be hunted down.

As I said, you're still free to exist. WotN is free to exist, albeit not legally. Go ahead and set up a renegade raiding org in a feeder that has long had defender sympathies. It will make for an interesting dynamic. Surely, it wouldn't be boring.

Knockavale:
Safety is what kills regions. My home region “North Pacific” is founderless and our most active times have come just after invasions or the threat of internal rebellion. Now that we are relatively safe we are inactive.
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True. But if you take a look through TNP's history, you'll see that we have had more than a fair share of drama and activity, despite our best precautions to safeguard the region from crises. Safety is fleeting enough in this game, and activity will follow accordingly.
 
I know this is a big step for some of you and it's difficult. But when you look at it honestly, you have been following a policy of "don't ask-don't tell" here for some time. And we Americans know how hypocritical that makes us feel. Instead of making raiders hide out in the region in order to take part in feeder politics, why not accept them for who they are?
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I apologize Dark, but you've confused me. Are you trying to say Blue Wolf is gay?
 
Scardino:
All of the feeder regions are letting invaders maintain membership. All of them are allowing them membership and not putting them on trial for invading.
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Point of Fact: The South Pacific does not allow "region crashers" in its borders.
 
After years of playing the game, I have finally worked out who raiders remind me of. Only British people may get this, and it helps if you imagine a strong Bristol accent:

littlebritain_3.jpg


"OH MY GOD... I can't believe you just said that.

No but yeah but no but yeah but no but Shut up! I ain’t even done no raidin or nuffink. Anyway, we got the right to assemble even though we weren’t even assembling anyway we were just standing around doing nuffink anyway but great bight’s mum her wot was saying that we are EVIL which is so out of order then I like so skits out and totally started to shout at her and say you are going to chuck me out of the region ….. shut up! That is so evil.

Don’t you go giving me them evils again just cos I am a well hard raider except I’m not cos blue wolf says we don’t do no raidin any more we just add to the cultural diversity of the region and stuff anyway Nadine her wot was shaggin that 40 year old virgin from Tescos says that TNP are goin to stop me existin which is well out of order if you ask me.
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That was helpful. :eyebrow:

I guess you're not in the mood to deal with it. I'll just check back in three years to see if you've decided yet.
In the mean time, I guess WotN is free to do as it likes since all this talk changes nothing.

Send me a PM or something, if you manage to do something.

MO: My sincere thanks for at least trying. :hug:
 
TAO has read and reread and rereread the TNP Constitution And Legal Code and other than the part stating the NPA is a Defender organization and that invaders are scum, in the opinion of those who putthe Constitution and Code together, there is nothing which indicates that WoTN would be violating anything by their existence.

The real issue is PREJUDICE. Be honest. The few who hold control over the region have a prejudice and a rigid perception that today's game is the same game we all played last year or two years ago or even three years ago. But it isn't the same game; evolution has occured.

If the WoTN were to incorporate into its bylaws that
First and foremost, its duty will be to defend The North Pacific from any hostile or aggressive attack from any party.
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would this not make them an asset to the region? You have the Aux Force guidelines in the Code ... why couldn't an additional statement be made to include and legitimize a group like WoTN?
 
flemingovia:
"OH MY GOD... I can't believe you just said that.

No but yeah but no but yeah but no but Shut up! I ain’t even done no raidin or nuffink. Anyway, we got the right to assemble even though we weren’t even assembling anyway we were just standing around doing nuffink anyway but great bight’s mum her wot was saying that we are EVIL which is so out of order then I like so skits out and totally started to shout at her and say you are going to chuck me out of the region ….. shut up! That is so evil.

Don’t you go giving me them evils again just cos I am a well hard raider except I’m not cos blue wolf says we don’t do no raidin any more we just add to the cultural diversity of the region and stuff anyway Nadine her wot was shaggin that 40 year old virgin from Tescos says that TNP are goin to stop me existin which is well out of order if you ask me.
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:rofl:

You just made me spill my tea.


True. But if you take a look through TNP's history, you'll see that we have had more than a fair share of drama and activity, despite our best precautions to safeguard the region from crises. Safety is fleeting enough in this game, and activity will follow accordingly.
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True and yes i know of TNPs turbluent history( twas very exciting) but if you guys are too successful in making your region safe it might be your downfall at least thats whats happened to NP.

and before anyone says it i know TNP is not the same as NP. Try telling recruiters that.
 
TAO:
If the WoTN were to incorporate into its bylaws that
First and foremost, its duty will be to defend The North Pacific from any hostile or aggressive attack from any party.
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would this not make them an asset to the region? You have the Aux Force guidelines in the Code ... why couldn't an additional statement be made to include and legitimize a group like WoTN?
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I believe that is the purpose of the NPA.

We also have relationships with other defender groups, most recently the WPLF.
 
TAO is not suggesting a replacement of the NPA, EM, but an enhancement. The language of the Legal Code makes room for an auxilliary force that also is responsible for defending TNP when the need arises. WoTN could be such an auxilliary force.

And ATM, there is no formal/official relationship with TWP and the WPLF other than the two regions' long-standing friendship.
 
I agree with Knockavale about the danger of too much safety/boredom. In fact, I know of a region that almost got invaded because its activity dropped so low that the Delegate wasn't checking it regularly.

I'm still on the fence about the WoTN, but I certainly see possibilities for them spicing things up.
 
I'm still on the fence about the WoTN, but I certainly see possibilities for them spicing things up.
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Dear God, you make them sound more like a rabbit than Wolves.

(let's see if anyone gets the reference)
 
TAO:
You confuse take-over attempts from others as raider attempts.  You ARE tired. 
:eyebrow:

TAO has come to think that all of you who decry the outrages of raiders are secretly raider supporters who understand that defenders without raiders are like cowboys without indians, or Yankees without Confederates.  The issue you haven't seem to overcome yet is this one: in the conflicts of cowboys and indians or in the American conflict of North v South, who were the good guys?  The same question can be asked of defenders v raiders and the answer will be the same ... a lame statement of moral superiority beginning with the words "My opinion ...".

Just come out and say it ... you LIKE the drama generated by playing good cop/bad cop.
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Hello everyone. I'm semi-retired, and I saw this post of TAO's, and just had to respond. I don't pretend to be terribly familiar with the immediate local situation here, but here I go.

With all due respect, what's up TAO?

Your analogy is very, very flawed. Did the "cowboys" of "cowboys and indians" cry when they killed all the Indians? No; they settled the land. [Note, that was genocide, but we're using these "good" and "evil" sided wars in TAO's bad analohy]

Did the North cry when it defeated the South because it had no more people to fight?

I think, TAO, that you've been with us, defending so long that you've ultimately forgotten why we fight. Perhaps it's the luxury of living in a feeder region, perhaps it's the luxury of never being forced to defend becuase you have to defend the very regions, institutions and cultures that you struggled to build; I really don't know.

I got into defending in early 2003 because our closest allies were griefed to the ground, and I vowed not to let that ever happen to my region, or anything else's region, if I could help it.

If today, right now, I could rest 100% assured that raiders were gone. My region was safe. All regions were safe, I would quietly retire back into my region, and resume where politics left off, almost four years ago.

The very mistaken premise behind your statement TAO, is that defenders want to be defenders. We don't. We want to be whatever we were before invaders made us into defenders.

Who the good guys, TAO? The good guys are the people who dedicated their careers in NS to making sure that regions, borne of blood and sweat and tears of many, were not fall to the capricies of some scum's angst to destroy something.

And if you've forgotten that, that's very sad, TAO, because I remember when you didn't.
 
Sorry for beating what seems a five day dead horse, but those that know me will attest to the fact that I love a lively discussion. :tb2:

I personally find it interesting that some here in the North Pacific are being labeled as prejudiced. I can't seem to understand the basis for such an accusation, because this sort of incident seems to relate to certain laws we have in Scandinavian Duchies; namely, citizens are forbidden to murder or harm each other, but are free to assemble, petition the government, etc.

To me, it seems as though the Constitution of the North Pacific is protecting the integrity of territories such as nations and regions from overt aggression from other nations or regions, or, essentially, murder of a nation/region. Just because this law exists, and there are citizens here wishing to interpret and implement it in such a manner does not mean that said citizens can be called prejudiced, in my opinion. They are merely upholding the values of sovereignty. One nation should be free from the unprovoked hostility of another nation. One region should be free from the unprovoked hostility of another region.

Now, I also cannot quite fathom how the upholding of such principles and laws make The North Pacific any less liberal or open. The government just recognizes that a nation's rights stop somewhere: at their own borders. I have no right to murder another citizen of Scandinavian Duchies. Scandinavian Duchies has no right to act against another nation with the intention of disrupting it, forcing it to do something, harming it, and so on and so forth. Finally, Alpha omega has no right to impose its rule on another region. These values are not authoritarian. They are designed to protect exactly true liberty and freedom from foreign powers and aggression.

Finally, it amuses me that this debate is centering on invaders demanding accommodation or threatening to leave the North Pacific and depart for userite regions. This, to me, behooves the question: why are you in the North Pacific, a relatively known region of defender tendencies, if your only demand is to raid? Why not try another feeder? If you profess a desire to reside and be a part of the social, political, and cultural entity that is the North Pacific, shouldn't you share some of the ideals that shape the community?
 
Finally, it amuses me that this debate is centering on invaders demanding accommodation or threatening to leave the North Pacific and depart for userite regions. This, to me, behooves the question: why are you in the North Pacific, a relatively known region of defender tendencies, if your only demand is to raid?
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We are not demanding or threating to leave. We want to and will assemble a raider organization based out of TNP. As you said, TNP laws only extend as far as its own borders and since this raiding would distinctively be out of TNP I don't see the issue.

Let me make it perfectly clear that the WotN is not anti-governmental in regards to TNP in anyway. But we do feel we have the right to exist and will fight tooth and nail with any who wish to destroy us.

As for what BB said; malarkey!

Want to know one of the prime reasons why I became a raider? I almost went to TITO, or RLA in fact. But then I saw through the bullcrap about how raiders where the absolute scum of the earth. And what brought me to this glorious revelation? Why, it was the actions of old Gripps AKA The Red Fractions who single handily did more evil in the act of completely exterminating the old DEN than any one raider organization ever has.

Also, the fact I was seeking out sides from my first days in the game when I learn of raiders and defenders disproves your theory that “defenders don’t want to be defenders they are forced”. Again, I call bullshit on that one and I think a lot of defenders might just agree with me.

Region-crashers are the stuff of legends; stories about the Farkers and ACC/AA will be around far after the RLA or ADN is dead and gone. Same with Franco, if you want to call him a raider (as people often did back in the days).
 
You can have your rant, Blackbird, but the truth in my words still stand. The OPINIONS of defenders v the OPINIONS of raiders are moral self-perceptions. Who is right? Depends on who is answering the question.

On a side note ... if you really think the South considers the War of Northern Aggression to be over ... well ... it doesn't and it ain't. :console:

Oh ... TAO could poke at you all day Blackbird and maybe have some fun but some people are missing the point by such a margin that they are looking east and calling it west. TAO is simply pointing out that this games requires a duality to retain its entertainment value. If you disagree with this then ... lick a roo!!! Yin/Yang, Good/Evil, Defender/Raider ... these are the real driving forces of this game. WE THRIVE ON THE DRAMA like it is our drug of choice. You claim to be semi-retired because ... why? Well ... it has to be one of two reasons ... RL has taken you hostage or semi-hostage (no time for DRAMA ... or maybe the RL drama provides your fix) or you have no more monsters to fight in this game (ie, no DRAMA). In fact, it is the DRAMA of this on-going argument that has pulled you back.

DRAMA ... DRAMA ... we are drawn to it. We feed on it. And when we don't have it, we talk about the "good ol' days" when we did have it. And if we go without it for too long, one of us decides to create it. DRAMA ... DRAMA ... got to have my fix!!!! Politics ... ho hum! Pointless bickerings back and forth about whether the phrase should contain this preposition or that one. Nobody really gives a marsupial's pouch about any of this politics hooey-pooey unless it relates to feeding our DRAMA addiction. The more dramatic the issue, the greater the number of posts in the thread. Really juicy stuff goes for pages and pages and pages.

Maybe your comments were made to stimulate more DRAMA. If so, GOOD FOR YOU!!! :clap: You haven't forgotten how to play after all and you deserve a hug. :hug:
 
Blue Wolf II:
We are not demanding or threating to leave. We want to and will assemble a raider organization based out of TNP. As you said, TNP laws only extend as far as its own borders and since this raiding would distinctively be out of TNP I don't see the issue.

Let me make it perfectly clear that the WotN is not anti-governmental in regards to TNP in anyway. But we do feel we have the right to exist and will fight tooth and nail with any who wish to destroy us.

As for what BB said; malarkey!

Want to know one of the prime reasons why I became a raider? I almost went to TITO, or RLA in fact. But then I saw through the bullcrap about how raiders where the absolute scum of the earth. And what brought me to this glorious revelation? Why, it was the actions of old Gripps AKA The Red Fractions who single handily did more evil in the act of completely exterminating the old DEN than any one raider organization ever has.

Also, the fact I was seeking out sides from my first days in the game when I learn of raiders and defenders disproves your theory that “defenders don’t want to be defenders they are forced”. Again, I call bullshit on that one and I think a lot of defenders might just agree with me.

Region-crashers are the stuff of legends; stories about the Farkers and ACC/AA will be around far after the RLA or ADN is dead and gone. Same with Franco, if you want to call him a raider (as people often did back in the days).
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Firstly, I abhor with equal distaste the forum destruction of which you speak, although due to its DRAMA factor, I suppose the honorable MOSS would disagree... :P

Moving on, nobody is denying your right to exist a nation. Likewise, no one is denying your right to assemble many nations into a group. What people do seem to be denying is that your nation or group of nations has the right to infringe upon the rights of other nations of group of nations. Further, some disagree that such opinions may be considered prejudice in any sense of the term.

The entire essence of the Wolves of the North is incompatible with the North Pacific's sovereign government, in my unimportant opinion. Said government recognizes and constitutionally upholds the integrity of nations and groups of nations from overt aggression from other nations and groups of nations.

TAO: I think you've misconceived the object of drama. ;) Everybody knows that politics is much more dramatic than staying up late to relocate a nation to some other region. :P Finally, the entire drama of the invader-defender spectrum does seem to be these sort of debates, and the political power struggles, if you ask me.
 
Probably. We hold our leaders to high standards, which can be daunting.

Out of curiosity, though, would I know you by another name, or have you just done your research well?
 
The Merit Consul burn-out rate is well-known all over NS, SD. Even TAO knows (and TAO avoids the Merit whenever possible.)
 
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