Liberty and Security

[Haor Chall]

As this wasn't entirely relevant to just the Treason discussion, I have reposted it here.

Whilst it has been around for sometime I have never been happy with it, and am particularly concerned considering the recent authoritarian moves within the region.

Well, that's a twist, since Heft and others are complaining that the PM has too little power as one of their justifications to seek consolidation of ministries.

Hardly a twist. In case you hadn't noticed I'm not Heft. And this isn't about 'power' this is about the democratic process. The problem is oversight of the NPIA isn't an issue of power you see. The NPIA is responsible to you, the PM, who essentially controls the NPIA. How can you exercise oversight of something which you run? It doesn't work. The issue of who heads the NPIA, who is effectively 'in charge' is an issue of power. Oversight, to preserve the democratic tradition of this region, is different and necessary.

The alternative to doing nothing, which it seems you are advocating as a solution, is to continue to leave the region exposed to interference and subversion from outside the region.

Ultimately, such is the nature of our system. The only way to be totally sure that the region is 'safe' from outside interference would be to enforce a system like the NPD and not let anyone have a say.

I would submit to you that for Flemingovia, Hersfold, and I, (three of the five people who have been directlly elected as Prime Minister in this region), have the preservation of democracy and constitutional government foremost in our view of security issues (as I think Tresville would as well had he not left the game). At the same time we also see a need to address these matters and erect a balanced mechanism to better protect the region from these elements who insist on interference and subversion.

And this is where you are wrong. I don't question your motives, as such, so you start to mislead the arguement here. But you do have preservation as you highest concern, the only issue is what you are preserving. These ammendments (the Oath ammendment, the emergency powers and so on) are, like it or not, changing our system of governance. As you said somewhere else, bit by bit, like joining the dots, we are moving in what I feel is the wrong direction. It seems to be that we'll be having anti-terror legislation before too long, although I think we may already have a partial Patriot Act and the NPIA can stand in for the Department of Homeworld Security.

In my view, we are not edging towards authoritarianism; but we are recognizing that we have to have better mechanisms that serve the region's need and right to have a sense of security, especially from those forces that have made clear from their past behavior that they desire to abolish democratic, constitutional government for an oppressive regime of their own making, a government that would be far more than just seeming to be more authoritarian.

I have always held the view that the ends do not justify the means. If we abandon our principles in the name of 'security' what do we have left that makes this great region what it is? If security is our overriding concern, get the NPD back, but if having a fair, open, democratic region is our highest priority then you cannot allow the security agenda to override that. I am not saying that security is unimportant but it cannot ride roughshod over the principles and ideas that from the basis of the region.

I forgot the exact quote, but:

"Those who sacrifice their essential liberties for a little temporary security, deserve neither security nor liberty and in the end lose both."

Haor, I have to agree with Gross. Our Constitution was written out of paranoia - it's been pointed out before. We've set up our system of government to have so many checks and balances that by the time something has cleared all the red tape, it's a moot point, because the crisis has either abated or we've found another way to deal with it. We're discovering that to our dismay now. The Fulhead trial has been going on now for almost two months, and the defense has yet to present their case. We've lost our first prosecutor, and half the jury has wandered off, putting us back at square one.

Thank you for pointing out one of the flaws of our system. Should we not try to address that now? I'd like to think we could move beyond that parania now.

Pure democracy, where everyone has a say in everything, is not the best government. By the time you get everyone together and get everyone to agree on everything, it's too late or nobody cares. A democratic government that has some authority to act on it's own - representative democracy - may be more authoritarian, but it still gets things done, and still has to answer to the will of the people. We're not turning TNP into a dictatorship, nobody wants to see that, we're just cutting the red tape so that we can do things. If you'd rather the government sit on its ever-growing ass and do nothing, that's your choice. I'd prefer that we give it the chance to exercise a bit.

I never mentioned pure democracy once. There is a substantial difference between a democratic government being able to act on its own and a government which starts warping the underlying principles of the whole system. The debate isn't about red tape, the debate is about the destruction of the principles of TNP in the pointless and fruitless quest for security. I'll say again for effect:

"Those who sacrifice their essential liberties for a little temporary security, deserve neither security nor liberty and in the end lose both."

 

[Grosseschnauzer]

If you read the constitutional language concerning the NPIA, you'll see that the NPIA controls the choice of its own leadership, in terms that are stricter than the NPA.
In the discussion that led up to the constitutional amendment that addressed the NPIA, Tresville's original position was tha the NPIA should not have any oversight whatsoever, and that it shouldn't even be mentioned in the Constituion. The language that emerged was as a result of my efforts that persuaded Tresville that there simply had to be some sort of oversight over the NPIA, and that the best option with the least amount of exposure was to place that oversight authority with the Prime Minister.

When I became Prime Minister, I had to ask for a briefing of the NPIA and its current activities. And at the same time, I was having to temporarily oversee the Ministry of Defense, since, as you will recall no one had stood for election because the NPA had failed to complete an endorsement process in time, and a nomination/confirmation process was necessary to fill the office.

Without getting into details, the NPA and the NPIA had a "turf" disagrement over a certain matter. I had to remind both agencies that as Prime Minister I did have oversight authority under the Constitution where the NPIA was concerned, and I exercised it. The two entities resolved their issues amongst thmselves, but I insisted on an explanation of the issue and its resolution from both sides.

The NPIA Director has stated that I am the first Prime Minister who has insisted on exercising such oversight that the office is permitted to have over that agency. That is a big difference from your assertion, Hoar Chall, that I control the NPIA. I don't; the NPIA essentially controls itself. But I do insist on having some understanding of what it is up to, and responding according to my understanding of what authority and limitations the Constitution imposes and applies to the NPIA.

There is no evidence that the NPIA has, to this point, overstepprd its bounds or has infringed upon the rights of the citizens of The North Pacific. I can't speak for what the situation was under past Prime Ministers and the past leadership of the NPIA. You will notice that I am not discussing specifics that may disclose operatives, methods, or specific information, nor will I do so. The NPIA is constitutionally protected from having such information publicly disclosed unless needed for a criminal trial.

 

[Fulhead Land]

The NPIA Director has stated that I am the first Prime Minister who has insisted on exercising such oversight that the office is permitted to have over that agency. That is a big difference from your assertion, Hoar Chall, that I control the NPIA. I don't; the NPIA essentially controls itself. But I do insist on having some understanding of what it is up to, and responding according to my understanding of what authority and limitations the Constitution imposes and applies to the NPIA.

There is no evidence that the NPIA has, to this point, oversteps its bound or has infringed upon the rights of the citizens of The North Pacific. I can't speak for what the situation was under past Prime Ministers and the past leadership of the NPIA. You ill notice that I am not discussing specifics that may disclosure operatives, methods, or specific information, nor will I do so. The NPIA is constitutionally protected from having such information publicly disclosed unless needed for a criminal trial.

And this is a major problem then, isnt it. No-one runs the NPIA. So they can do or say whatever they want. You might have oversight but what can you do with it?


I think people are finally cottoning onto the step by step erosion of our liberty thats been occuring for months now. And, Mr Prime Minister, you seem to be leading the charge in the wrong direction!

 

[Monumental Proportions]

No-one runs the NPIA. So they can do or say whatever they want.

Hersfold is the Director of the NPIA.

 

[Zemnaya Svoboda]

In any case, the NPIA is answerable to 1 person? What laws define what the NPIA can do?

 

[Grosseschnauzer]

ZS, there is a subforum here that contains the current text of the Constitution and the Legal Code, that is kept up-to-date as laws are enacted,

The information you asked about is contained in those two documents. At the moment, it is completely current and includes the laws and consitutional amendments that were adopted during this last month.

The specific paeagraph concerning the NPIA is contained here:

C - There is to be a North Pacific Intelligence Agency whose duties are to collect and analyze confidential intelligence information for the benefit of the Regional Government and the region as a whole. The Prime Minister shall appoint the leadership of the North Pacific Intelligence Agency after consultation with the personnel of that agency. Any matter concerning the Agency's activities and personnel, except in the case of a criminal prosecution, shall be discussed in confidence without reference in any public record; however, there may be disclosure of confidential information in connection with a criminal or impeachment proceeding. The Prime Minister shall be responsible to the Cabinet and the Regional Assembly for the ongoing oversight of the Agency.

 

[Haor Chall]

If you read the constitutional language concerning the NPIA, you'll see that the NPIA controls the choice of its own leadership, in terms that are stricter than the NPA.
In the discussion that led up to the constitutional amendment that addressed the NPIA, Tresville's original position was tha the NPIA should not have any oversight whatsoever, and that it shouldn't even be mentioned in the Constituion. The language that emerged was as a result of my efforts that persuaded Tresville that there simply had to be some sort of oversight over the NPIA, and that the best option with the least amount of exposure was to place that oversight authority with the Prime Minister.

Well for starters, if the answer is hidden in constitutional language there isn't much hope that the majority of us will know about it. Although maybe thats the idea. Anyway, aside from illustrating that Tresville was the most anti-democratic PM under the current constitution, you say the NPIA leadership is more strictly controlled than the NPA.

... The NPA is run by an elected Minister. The NPIA well... who outside the NPIA (other than the occassional PM) actually knows what is does. But I will conceed to you, that as long as the PM does his job, this isn't much of an issue.

When I became Prime Minister, I had to ask for a briefing of the NPIA and its current activities. And at the same time, I was having to temporarily oversee the Ministry of Defense, since, as you will recall no one had stood for election because the NPA had failed to complete an endorsement process in time, and a nomination/confirmation process was necessary to fill the office.

Without getting into details, the NPA and the NPIA had a "turf" disagrement over a certain matter. I had to remind both agencies that as Prime Minister I did have oversight authority under the Constitution where the NPIA was concerned, and I exercised it. The two entities resolved their issues amongst thmselves, but I insisted on an explanation of the issue and its resolution from both sides.

The NPIA Director has stated that I am the first Prime Minister who has insisted on exercising such oversight that the office is permitted to have over that agency. That is a big difference from your assertion, Hoar Chall, that I control the NPIA. I don't; the NPIA essentially controls itself. But I do insist on having some understanding of what it is up to, and responding according to my understanding of what authority and limitations the Constitution imposes and applies to the NPIA.

There is no evidence that the NPIA has, to this point, overstepprd its bounds or has infringed upon the rights of the citizens of The North Pacific. I can't speak for what the situation was under past Prime Ministers and the past leadership of the NPIA. You will notice that I am not discussing specifics that may disclose operatives, methods, or specific information, nor will I do so. The NPIA is constitutionally protected from having such information publicly disclosed unless needed for a criminal trial.

The fact that you are the first PM to have actually exercised your constitutional oversight of the NPIA is concerning, although pleasing to hear that someone is doing their job right. But this wasn't just about the NPIA, only the first paragraph was about that.

 

[Hersfold]

What are you saying, Haor? Just because something is written in our laws, nobody is supposed to know about it? Sorry, but ignorance of the law is no excuse. If you can't be bothered to read the Constitution, whatever you allow to happen to the region is your own damn fault.

The NPIA well... who outside the NPIA (other than the occassional PM) actually knows what is does. But I will conceed to you, that as long as the PM does his job, this isn't much of an issue.

So you would rather me publically publish every little operation I have the NPIA undertake? That's wonderfully intelligent. Let's simply blow every single one of our agent's covers - would you like a full roster of the NPIA, or will their IP addresses be sufficient?

I'll note also that previous Prime Ministers have not had to enforce their oversight - I was Prime Minister for a time, so oversight was implied there. Other Prime Ministers, Tresville included, have been members of the NPIA and the oversight was implied there as well.

There's a damn good reason the NPIA is held in secrecy. If it wasn't, we couldn't do our jobs very well. Just imagine - if I had to publically report that Shoeless Joe had leaked Limi's plot, we'd be under control of the Lexicon right now.

Think.

No-one runs the NPIA.

I would ask that you please check your facts before posting idiotic lies, Fulhead. The same goes to you. Think.

The United Federation of Hersfold
Director, The North Pacific Intelligence Agency

 

[Haor Chall]

What are you saying, Haor? Just because something is written in our laws, nobody is supposed to know about it? Sorry, but ignorance of the law is no excuse. If you can't be bothered to read the Constitution, whatever you allow to happen to the region is your own damn fault.

It was a poor attempt at humour. Ignorance of the law is no excuse, true, it is just difficult to be enlighted when the constitution is an incomprhensible as ours. But anyway, thats distracting from the point somewhat.

So you would rather me publically publish every little operation I have the NPIA undertake? That's wonderfully intelligent. Let's simply blow every single one of our agent's covers - would you like a full roster of the NPIA, or will their IP addresses be sufficient?

Please. Don't be stupid, I didn't say that.

There's a damn good reason the NPIA is held in secrecy. If it wasn't, we couldn't do our jobs very well. Just imagine - if I had to publically report that Shoeless Joe had leaked Limi's plot, we'd be under control of the Lexicon right now.

Bull. You can spout your rhetoric all you like, but that doesn't make it true.

Think.

With the direction we seem to be moving in, I wonder how long it will before that becomes a crime.


...Oh look, I can do the rhetoric thing as well. Constructive isn't it?

 

[Zemnaya Svoboda]

Hersfold is a meanie!

--edit--

C - There is to be a North Pacific Intelligence Agency whose duties are to collect and analyze confidential intelligence information for the benefit of the Regional Government and the region as a whole. The Prime Minister shall appoint the leadership of the North Pacific Intelligence Agency after consultation with the personnel of that agency. Any matter concerning the Agency's activities and personnel, except in the case of a criminal prosecution, shall be discussed in confidence without reference in any public record; however, there may be disclosure of confidential information in connection with a criminal or impeachment proceeding. The Prime Minister shall be responsible to the Cabinet and the Regional Assembly for the ongoing oversight of the Agency.

That there doesn't say anything about what the Agency is allowed or not allowed to do!

 

[freedom and pride]

Heft...Courteous, kind and cheerful now...3 important points I expect to be reminded when I need it, so I am more than happy to remind.

Now to fix these problems...why not abolish the grand jury. Have justices agree to hold a case then the people decide guilt. Trials go faster. If you really want...have RA serve as jury. Problem solved. next?

 

[Fulhead Land]

Anyway, aside from illustrating that Tresville was the most anti-democratic PM under the current constitution, you say the NPIA leadership is more strictly controlled than the NPA.

How well did I know that one?

What are you saying, Haor? Just because something is written in our laws, nobody is supposed to know about it? Sorry, but ignorance of the law is no excuse. If you can't be bothered to read the Constitution, whatever you allow to happen to the region is your own damn fault.

Theres a difference between reading and understanding something written in harsher legalese than most laws inacted in the western world!

I would ask that you please check your facts before posting idiotic lies, Fulhead. The same goes to you. Think.

Ok fine, someone runs the NPIA. You do, apparantly.

But who over-rules you? How does the government, and the people it serves, remove you?

With your god-only-knows disclosure policy, for all we know you could be rigging elections or anything!

 

[Poltsamaa]

As a former Prime Minister that was democratically elected my only interaction with the NPIA was to get the "evidence" that was apparently used to deny Fulhead Land registered voter status at the time!! The NPIA did all in its power to not cooperate with my requests and never delivered the evidence throughout my term as Prime Minister!!

It is my opinion that the NPIA is a lawless band of "defenders" answerable to no one and who only seek to remove "non-defenders" from the region!! They were uncooperative, unnamed shadows that offered nothing by way of assistance to my government at the time and went to lengths to make my job more difficult than it needed to be!!

All well and good to say I had oversight of this group, but when they had no interest in providing information requested by the Cabinet and for long periods of time ignored my inquiries, I question the motives of the group!!

Is the NPIA here to help TNP or is it here to assist a certain clique maintain power?!

I tend to agree with Haor Chall's statements here!! You are fast becoming what you all preached you opposed!!

 

[Hersfold]

I will not tolerate these ridiculous libelous claims.

But who over-rules you? How does the government, and the people it serves, remove you?

With your god-only-knows disclosure policy, for all we know you could be rigging elections or anything!

I am required by the Constitution to report to the Prime Minister. As I have said, Schnauzer keeps a very good eye on that. Any member of the Cabinet (the previous one, at least, haven't had much of a chance to do so with the new one yet) can tell you that I regularly discuss logistics with the Cabinet, or at the very least those who need to know, i.e., the MoD, PM, and other trusted contacts.

And I really don't have to get the NPIA to rig elections, your other region does a fine job with that on their own.

As a former Prime Minister that was democratically elected my only interaction with the NPIA was to get the "evidence" that was apparently used to deny Fulhead Land registered voter status at the time!! The NPIA did all in its power to not cooperate with my requests and never delivered the evidence throughout my term as Prime Minister!!

That occured under a different Directorship. I can't control events that took place in the past, especially if I was not in a position to control them at the time they occured.

It is my opinion that the NPIA is a lawless band of "defenders" answerable to no one and who only seek to remove "non-defenders" from the region!! They were uncooperative, unnamed shadows that offered nothing by way of assistance to my government at the time and went to lengths to make my job more difficult than it needed to be!!

Ooh, Polts is feeling ganged up on. Poor baby.

Yes, obviously the purpose of the NPIA is to defend the region against threats. Obviously our purpose is to see that those threats are removed. As said before, we are clearly answerable to the Prime Minister and through him the region. Your opinion that may be, but it is based on faulty information.

All well and good to say I had oversight of this group, but when they had no interest in providing information requested by the Cabinet and for long periods of time ignored my inquiries, I question the motives of the group!!

Again, that was a different time, a different leadership. I assure you the NPIA is not as it was then.

Is the NPIA here to help TNP or is it here to assist a certain clique maintain power?!

I tend to agree with Haor Chall's statements here!! You are fast becoming what you all preached you opposed!!

That, sir, is libel. The NPIA has no control over the democratic procedures within my region. If you continue to accuse my agency of such tactics, I will take this to the courts. I'll remind you that they tend to be a little faster with civil cases than they are with criminal ones.

What is the purpose of this topic? "Bash the NPIA"? If we are not discussing anything of actual value, I suggest the Regional Assembly return to its actual purpose, that of passing legistature for the improvement of this region. This bickering and sniping is getting us nowhere.

 

[Blue Wolf II]

Ok, I am sure I am going to piss off some people with this but I feel it has to be said so forgive me.

I don't trust NPIA, it’s not because I am a raider, that doesn't make any difference to me, NPIA has sent agents into my region before and I don't care. What I am worried about is that NPIA is not at all swayed by public opinion, they are free to go whatever, whenever without fear of consequences and that runs the risk of opening up The North Pacific to considerable harassment.

The thing that worries me the most is that I strongly suspect that the NPIA directly yet accidentally started the TNP-Lexicon conflict and then tried to cover it up by denying that the agent that Lexicon caught was acting under orders of the NPIA. Its very easy for NPIA to deny this because, quite frankly, they don't let anyone know shit about what they do, they never release any information at all about anything. Even the information released during the recent Limitless scandal was done so by the current Prime Minister of the time, Flem, and not the NPIA themselves.

The NPIA is just so sketchy, the voters simply are not allowed control them and are not allowed to know about anything about what they do and that raises some red flags. We as residents and voters of this region have a right to know just what the NPIA is doing. Now Military Intelligence Head Hersfold suggested that the public can not and should not know this information because it will compromise his agents. However I say it should be the responsibility of his agency to present information about his departments activities and that that it is also his responsibility, and/or dilemma, to do so in a way that does not compromise active NPIA missions.

 

[Poltsamaa]

As a former Prime Minister that was democratically elected my only interaction with the NPIA was to get the "evidence" that was apparently used to deny Fulhead Land registered voter status at the time!! The NPIA did all in its power to not cooperate with my requests and never delivered the evidence throughout my term as Prime Minister!!

That occured under a different Directorship. I can't control events that took place in the past, especially if I was not in a position to control them at the time they occured.

Who was leading it is irrelevant, I'm relating my experiences as PM with regards to the NPIA!! I did not mention who lead it, only my dealings with the NPIA!!

Ooh, Polts is feeling ganged up on. Poor baby.

Thats the type of argument I expect from the NPIA!!

Yes, obviously the purpose of the NPIA is to defend the region against threats. Obviously our purpose is to see that those threats are removed. As said before, we are clearly answerable to the Prime Minister and through him the region. Your opinion that may be, but it is based on faulty information

No, it is based on first hand experience!! When PM the NPIA was not answerable to me, they went out of their way to be uncooperative and hinder my government!!

Again, that was a different time, a different leadership. I assure you the NPIA is not as it was then.

i can only relate my experiences with the NPIA, if it has changed from those days, good!! But I have no dealings with the NPIA to confirm or deny that!!

That, sir, is libel. The NPIA has no control over the democratic procedures within my region. If you continue to accuse my agency of such tactics, I will take this to the courts. I'll remind you that they tend to be a little faster with civil cases than they are with criminal ones

When the government removes the right to vote from a citizen based on NPIA intelligence, then they do influence democratic process!! Under current amendments, their power to so will be increased!!
This is not libel, although you are welocme to take this to the court!! Can't guarantee I'll be around in 2012 when the trial starts but I'll do my best!! These are facts based on my experiences and observations of the NPIA!!

What is the purpose of this topic? "Bash the NPIA"? If we are not discussing anything of actual value, I suggest the Regional Assembly return to its actual purpose, that of passing legistature for the improvement of this region. This bickering and sniping is getting us nowhere.

No, its called free and open debate!! No surprise you are concerned about it!!

 

[Hersfold]

NPIA has sent agents into my region before and I don't care.

*sighs* Again, that agent was not sent by us, they went in of their own accord and messed things up.

The thing that worries me the most is that I strongly suspect that the NPIA directly yet accidentally started the TNP-Lexicon conflict and then tried to cover it up by denying that the agent that Lexicon caught was acting under orders of the NPIA. Its very easy for NPIA to deny this because, quite frankly, they don't let anyone know shit about what they do, they never release any information at all about anything. Even the information released during the recent Limitless scandal was done so by the current Prime Minister of the time, Flem, and not the NPIA themselves.

What possible purpose could that have served? Yes, we intended to put the region at war, because it's such a useful prospective, to have us yelling at another region for no reason.[/sarcasm] Of course not! If you'd stop to think about things, how would the Prime Minister have gotten the information in the first place if I hadn't released it to him? Did I not post copies of the screenshots myself in the moderation discussion forum? You saw the screenshots yourself, I'm quite sure I sent you a copy, as you were the first one to raise a stink about Limi's ban. How can you possibly claim we don't release anything, particularly when you use that as an example?

The NPIA is just so sketchy, the voters simply are not allowed control them and are not allowed to know about anything about what they do and that raises some red flags. We as residents and voters of this region have a right to know just what the NPIA is doing. Now Military Intelligence Head Hersfold suggested that the public can not and should not know this information because it will compromise his agents. However I say it should be the responsibility of his agency to present information about his departments activities and that that it is also his responsibility, and/or dilemma, to do so in a way that does not compromise active NPIA missions.

As I've said, it's an intelligence agency. To tell every Harry, Dick, and Joe everything we we're doing 24/7 would rather defeat the purpose of the agency. It will compromise our agents, very obviously! How are they supposed to remain undercover when I publically announce every time an agent is sent into another region?!

I already make reports to the Prime Minister. If that's not enough for you, too bad. Public reports of activities cannot be worded in any way that will not compromise agents. Use your common sense.

---

Let's just say, for the purpose of argument, since that's all we're doing here anyway, that I do exactly what you're suggesting. Every time I send an agent into a region, I announce it to the Regional Assembly. Every time I get a tiny bit of intel, I share it with the entire Regional Assembly.

Now, we have Nation X, who happens to in the RA and also a member of an enemy region - for the moment, let's say the DEN, since the NPA has had several conflicts with them of late. When I announce that the NPIA has sent a spy into an invader region, he's going to run to big boss of the DEN and let them know, probably with a screenshot or at the very least an exact copy of my post. If the DEN General has any brains, he won't do anything immediately. Then as I disclose all the intel this particular agent is gathering, the DEN General looks for patterns in the information being gathered. What new member had access to this information at such-and-such a time? Once he's narrowed it down to a possible suspect, he logs their IP address and e-mail, sends it to every invader organization he's allied with, and launches a massive war against TNP. The DEN, allied with several other invader regions, could very easily overtake the region if they endorse someone who's already very high on the list like Conch Divers is right now. All they would need is a reason to do so and the ability to cripple an already hindered Intelligence Agency. Once the dominos are set, all they have to do is knock them down, and TNP as we know it ceases to exist.

Brilliant plan. Let's start it up right now, shall we?

Edit: Typing fast when you're annoyed does not make for very good speling.

 

[Monumental Proportions]

All in favor of ending this NPIA bashfest?

 

[Hersfold]

Aye. This is atrocious.

 

[Poltsamaa]

Oh, yes!! The NPIA is above critcism or query!! Close this before anyone else expresses their opinion!!

 

[Former English Colony]

If we want a discussion on the NPIA, let's have it in an appropriate place and cut any personal attacks (OR taking things too personally).

 

[Poltsamaa]

I hadn't noticed any personal attacks, at least not from those criticising the NPIA!! Why is the Regional Assembly inappropriate to discuss this?!

 

[Blue Wolf II]

Wow Hers, you ignored everything I said completely and substituted my words with your own.

No, I did not say NPIA intentionally started a war. I said I think they accidentally started one, which is true because no matter what that agent working for the NPIA is still...well and NPIA agent. Then again I think it goes deeper than that based on some of the things you said in the past and the PM you sent Scardino when the same person spied on LWU.

No, I am not saying that you should reveal everything, just the past, done and over with operations. I believe they call it "declassified information" in the intelligence business.

No, NPIA did not provide Flem with that info, he said himself that Shoeless came to him and that he was the only Minister on at the time, hence why he banned Limi right off the bat. I remember that clearly.

Hers, you’re overreacting and refusing to compromise or even listen to a proposition for a compromise. Is that any way to act?

This issue needs to be addressed I say leave the topic open.

 

[Former English Colony]

And who said I was referring to you specifically poltsy?

I just meant setting up a topic for discussion about the NPIA, since other concerns regarding security seem to have fallen by the wayside by focusing on the NPIA.

 

[Poltsamaa]

And who said I was referring to you specifically poltsy?

I just meant setting up a topic for discussion about the NPIA, since other concerns regarding security seem to have fallen by the wayside by focusing on the NPIA.

I wasn't referring to myself either, I was referring to people in general!! I hadn't seen any personal attacks in this thread, except maybe Hersfold's childish taunt at me earlier!!

As for a separate discussion thread, this looks to be it as it was moved out of the Definition of Treason discussion!! But if it gets moved elsewhere, thats fine as long as the Admins don't close discussion because they don't like what is being said!!

 

[Romanoffia (Guest)]

All this begs the question what is the purpose of this thread and why the sudden bash-fest on the NPIA? What is even more strange is the fact that it appears that there is suddenly a small faction that seems to want to poke out the "eyes" of The North Pacific in the intelligence department.

The NPIA is a vital resource upon which this region depends when it comes to being aware of what threats may arise from elements outside the region. There is no real issue involved in this bashing of the NPIA and the accusations I hear against it are factitious, contentious and, at best, absurd. This sudden and apparent campaign against the intelligence gathering capability of this region makes me wonder, and I'll leave it at that.

 

[Poltsamaa]

All this begs the question what is the purpose of this thread and why the sudden bash-fest on the NPIA? What is even more strange is the fact that it appears that there is suddenly a small faction that seems to want to poke out the "eyes" of The North Pacific in the intelligence department.

The NPIA is a vital resource upon which this region depends when it comes to being aware of what threats may arise from elements outside the region. There is no real issue involved in this bashing of the NPIA and the accusations I hear against it are factitious, contentious and, at best, absurd. This sudden and apparent campaign against the intelligence gathering capability of this region makes me wonder, and I'll leave it at that.

Enter Roman with his blustering rant devoid of any specific response to comments he disagrees with and a not so subtle accusation that anyone who dares question the NPIA is most likely part of a takeover plot!!

People posting their concerns and experiences with the NPIA they should be free to do so!! I've not seen anyone call for it to be disbanded!!

What I have stated and others have alluded to as well, is that the new laws being pushed through the Regional Assembly allow people to removed from the RA pending trial for accusations of treason!! Who do you think would bring the "evidence" to the government that would lead to the charge of treason in most cases?! The NPIA!! If not, then why do we have the NPIA?! Therefore, the NPIA can have quite an influence on our democratic process by way of removing nations' right to vote in elections and in the passing or rejecting of legislative change!!

The NPIA, to most people, is group of unknown nations who secretively pass "intelligence" to the government of the region!! They are unelected and largely self-regulating if they are regulated at all!! When I was PM, they were uncooperative and did all they could to hinder my government!! That is my experience with the NPIA!! They denied a resident of TNP citizenship based on "evidence" they either did not have or refused to show myself or the Cabinet!! Is this the type of intelligence department we need?! If they refuse to provide information to the Prime Minister then who are they answerable to?! What are their motives?!

Can we trust this group to be upfront and genuine about "evidence" when they have an open door to remove a nation's citizenship in light of their behaviour during my term as PM?!

I'm not so sure that I do!! Does that make me a spy or someone who wants to tear the region down?! I don't think so!! I think it means that I have an opinion, one I have chosen to express civilly here!! If that is enough to make a member of the NPIA suspicious should I prepare my defense now for my impending treason trial?!

 

[Hersfold]

Before this continues, I'd just like to say that I personally will not be closing this topic. I'm obviously a bit biased about this discussion, and I'm not going to open myself to further accusations of bias by moderating it.

No, I did not say NPIA intentionally started a war. I said I think they accidentally started one, which is true because no matter what that agent working for the NPIA is still...well and NPIA agent. Then again I think it goes deeper than that based on some of the things you said in the past and the PM you sent Scardino when the same person spied on LWU.

I apologize, I was allowing myself to read words that weren't there.

No, I am not saying that you should reveal everything, just the past, done and over with operations. I believe they call it "declassified information" in the intelligence business.

Even so, the example you quoted to support this was not accurate. Not all information we have would be the best to declassify, either, due to ongoing conflicts. Usually when something could become declassified, there's not any reason to declassify it anyway, as whatever it is has become a moot point.

No, NPIA did not provide Flem with that info, he said himself that Shoeless came to him and that he was the only Minister on at the time, hence why he banned Limi right off the bat. I remember that clearly.

What you heard was incorrect. Shoeless Joe contacted me first, and I made the decision to give the information to Flemingovia. He acted on it in what way he deemed appropriate, but the information came from me as Director of the NPIA. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Hers, you’re overreacting and refusing to compromise or even listen to a proposition for a compromise. Is that any way to act?

To be completely honest, all I've seen so far is people posting abrasive opinions against the NPIA, probably with the intention to shut the agency down. I've yet to see any attempt to make a reasonable suggestion. I would also point out that nobody who has posted such opinions is a member of the NPIA, and in all honesty have little business mucking around in something they do not fully understand.

 

[Romanoffia (Guest)]

All this begs the question what is the purpose of this thread and why the sudden bash-fest on the NPIA?  What is even more strange is the fact that it appears that there is suddenly a small faction that seems to want to poke out the "eyes" of The North Pacific in the intelligence department.

The NPIA is a vital resource upon which this region depends when it comes to being aware of what threats may arise from elements outside the region. There is no real issue involved in this bashing of the NPIA and the accusations I hear against it are factitious, contentious and, at best, absurd. This sudden and apparent campaign against the intelligence gathering capability of this region makes me wonder, and I'll leave it at that.

Enter Roman with his blustering rant devoid of any specific response to comments he disagrees with and a not so subtle accusation that anyone who dares question the NPIA is most likely part of a takeover plot!!

You seem to take all this quite personally as is evident by the fact that you take any disagreement with your opinions as an attack upon your person.

I have given a very specific response to the misguided and uneducated opinion that the NPIA should be abolished as you seem to be indication. That very specific opion is this (and let me educate you on this matter): Anyone who even remotely suggest that this region's intelligence agency be abolished is either totally disconnected with reality and what it takes to maintain the proper level of intelligence at worst or a fool at best. You can take that any way you want and distort it with ad hominem as usual.

If you insist upon bolstering your abrasive style by employing irrelevant and inane personal attacks, be my guest. I won't waste my time stoping you from doing so. In fact, I encourage you to have at it. If you want to insult every person who disagrees with you as your main means of promoting whatever program you promote, please, by all means do. If you wish to engage in divisive propagandization, go ahead.

Frankly, I am offended at the hairbrained accusations you are making about the NPIA and every other 'element' you seem to have a personal gripe with. If you are going to be libelous in your accusations, why not just pull out all the stops and just go for it?

I for one am going to ignore your abrasive venting of spleen because, to tell the truth, I don't want to have anything to do with it and I will not take part in that type of divisive trash.

To be honest, I think you owe an apology to this assembly for not only your abrasive style, but also for the unfounded and paranoiac accusations.

If you insist upon continuing your abrasiveness, I will move for your censure.

If you continue with your abrasiveness, do not expect me to respond to anything you say until you can discuss things in a civil manner devoid of ad hom bile.

 

[Poltsamaa]

You seem to take all this quite personally as is evident by the fact that you take any disagreement with your opinions as an attack upon your person.

Not at all, I just grow tired of the innuendo from you whenever anyone questions something about this region!! Your eagerness to whip up a conspiracy by taking artistic licence with what people post is second to none!! I'd prefer you discussed what I said rather than what you wanted me to say!!

I have given a very specific response to the misguided and uneducated opinion that the NPIA should be abolished as you seem to be indication.

How can you respond to something you have not bothered to read?! I have never called for the NPIA to be abolished!! Again, this is your "take a few words and twist it into a major conspiracy" angle that I alluded to!!

That very specific opion is this (and let me educate you on this matter): Anyone who even remotely suggest that this region's intelligence agency be abolished is either totally disconnected with reality and what it takes to maintain the proper level of intelligence at worst or a fool at best. You can take that any way you want and distort it with ad hominem as usual.

Show me where anyone has called for the NPIA to be abolished!! As for disconnected with reality, errrmm....no comment!! I wouldn't want to resort to ad hominem!!

If you insist upon bolstering your abrasive style by employing irrelevant and inane personal attacks, be my guest. I won't waste my time stoping you from doing so.

I'm not aware of any personal attacks I have made!! I don't believe pointing out your penchant for leaping to dramatic conspiracy theories based on "reading between the lines" to be a personal attack!! Its a well-known trait of yours!!

In fact, I encourage you to have at it. If you want to insult every person who disagrees with you as your main means of promoting whatever program you promote, please, by all means do. If you wish to engage in divisive propagandization, go ahead.

I haven't insulted anyone!! However, accusing anyone who dares question the NPIA of having ulterior motives (nudge, nudge, wink, wink!!) is a low act designed to intimidate people into not expressing their views and/or tarnish the people that express those opinions!!

Frankly, I am offended at the hairbrained accusations you are making about the NPIA and every other 'element' you seem to have a personal gripe with. If you are going to be libelous in your accusations, why not just pull out all the stops and just go for it?

Please point out anything I have said that is libellous!! What exactly have I asked for from the NPIA?! As far as I'm aware, I have stated my experiences in dealing with the NPIA, those experiences are factual!! Should I not post my experiences if they paint the NPIA in a negative way?!

I for one am going to ignore your abrasive venting of spleen because, to tell the truth, I don't want to have anything to do with it and I will not take part in that type of divisive trash.

Heaven forbid!! You just wanted to pop into the thread, imply that anyone who dared question the NPIA was part of a plot to overthrow the government and slip out the backdoor without anyone noticing!! Well, I noticed you and locked the backdoor!! Sorry for spoiling that for you!!

To be honest, I think you owe an apology to this assembly for not only your abrasive style, but also for the unfounded and paranoiac accusations.

I haven't made any accusations, I've relayed my experiences with the NPIA!! The only paranoic accusations I've seen are yours, implying we are all in a plot to overthrow the region and disband the NPIA!!

If you insist upon continuing your abrasiveness, I will move for your censure.

Be my guest, but I thought you were going to ignore me!!

If you continue with your abrasiveness, do not expect me to respond to anything you say until you can discuss things in a civil manner devoid of ad hom bile.

I have not used ad hominem!! And I haven't been particularly abrasive to my knowledge!! But whatever floats your boat!!

 

[Daimiaena]

Poltsamaa....hiya.....just wanted to say I hear what you are saying....that when you were prime minister and the NPIA was under a different leader it behaved in a way that can be interpreted as innappropriate.....

Blue wolf.....the NPIA really had bugger all to do with my amatuerish attempts at espionage....I offered them my services and Hersfold to be polite went along with it....as previously stated I provided no info of any use at all.....I caused a war....for which I am truly sorry.....the LWU incident is another example of me being crap not the NPIA...okay???

Romaoffia...I gotta admit no-one has stated that NPIA should be abolished...all I've seen is some people asking about respsonibilty of authority for an admittedly {and quite understandably}shady organisation.....

Hersfold...it is in the very nature of the NPIA to be put under this kind of scrutiny every now and again....as you say....{paraphrasing}by people who don't understand how it operates....and that's exactly the problem....an intelligence agency that is transparent is not very useful......and there will always be those who wish to know more about it....

Dai....

 

[Fulhead Land]

What is even more strange is the fact that it appears that there is suddenly a small faction that seems to want to poke out the "eyes" of The North Pacific in the intelligence department.

That, sir, is libel!

I shall summarise, if I may, to try and calm this discussion down.


Hersfold, your accusations of libel and the talk (not necissarily by you) of the topic being closed is doing nothing for your agencies reputation as"open and honest".

Many of us here feel that the NPIAA is too secretive and its non-discolusre is harming our civil liberties and democracy as a whole. There is concern that the agency is not a tool of the people, or even necissarily the government as demonstrated by the testimony of Polts.

As for a lack of sensible suggestions, heres one: we want the NPIAA to become a tool of the people. If the agency wont give us the disclosure we ask for, we legislate to get it.

And no, I am not trying to remove the NPIAA far from it. Before the accusations start

 

[Poltsamaa]

I'm not sure disclosure is such a huge issue with me, at least as far as disclosing information to the general population!! Any intelligence agency does require secrecy and that their findings be held in confidence by those who need to know!! I have no problem with that in a general sense!!

My grievance was that as Prime Minister information was withheld even from the Cabinet that was reviewing the removal of citizenship from a nation based on evidence purported to be held by the NPIA!! To me, this showed the NPIA was not answerable to or even working for the region and more specifically the regional government!!

This is the biggest concern to me in light of the legislation being discussed in the Regional Assembly as this legislation will allow for nations to have their Regional Assembly membership stripped from them based on suspicion of "treason" for a period of time that going on historical examples could run into months!!

I've not asked for the NPIA to be disbanded, I have asked for their role to be clarified and to also have some indication that the members of the NPIA (whoever they are!!) are accountable to someone!! I truly fear that contrived charges of treason will be used to remove undesirables from the Regional Assembly based on "secret evidence" or worse still non-existant "evidence" for the purpose of ensuring certain bills pass the Regional Assembly or to ensure certain parties win elections!!

My experiences with the NPIA do not instil me with much confidence that this mysterious group can put aside their politics and monitor events for the benefit of the region as a whole rather than their own views as to what should happen in the region!!

 

[Haor Chall]

It's just a shame this has been dragged somewhat off-topic.

 

[Poltsamaa]

It's just a shame this has been dragged somewhat off-topic.

Heh, it happens...although what has been covered despite the rantings does connect with what you initially discussed...slightly, if you ignore the pissing contests!!

The problem with who is overseeing the NPIA is my major concern and that is the issue you raised in the first part of your original post!! If the people in the NPIA are also the ones overseeing it, then it is the self-regulating secret society I refer to!!

I also share you concerns that the changes to the oath and the current bill being discussed in the Regional Assembly move the region closer to what the people proposing the bill claimed to despise!!

 

[Haor Chall]

Could a forum mod/admin perhaps split the solely NPIA stuff into a seperate thread. It is a discussion worth having, I believe, but I'd like this thread to remain more broad in scope like the original topic.

 

[Fulhead Land]

I also share you concerns that the changes to the oath and the current bill being discussed in the Regional Assembly move the region closer to what the people proposing the bill claimed to despise!!

And that, really, is the big point

 

[Hersfold]

I've not asked for the NPIA to be disbanded, I have asked for their role to be clarified and to also have some indication that the members of the NPIA (whoever they are!!) are accountable to someone!! I truly fear that contrived charges of treason will be used to remove undesirables from the Regional Assembly based on "secret evidence" or worse still non-existant "evidence" for the purpose of ensuring certain bills pass the Regional Assembly or to ensure certain parties win elections!!

Then why are we still arguing? We've answered your questions, just read the Constitution. If you don't trust us, that's your problem. I fail to see how we could possibly hold a trial in this region with "secret evidence", when all trials have to be done by jury and in public. Use common sense, Polts, it's all here in the topic for you, you just haven't read it.

The NPIA's "duties are to collect and analyze confidential intelligence information for the benefit of the Regional Government and the region as a whole," according to the Constitution. As for accountability, "The Prime Minister shall be responsible to the Cabinet and the Regional Assembly for the ongoing oversight of the Agency." It's in the Constitution, it's already been posted here once. What more do you want?

Haor, sorry, I'll work on splitting the topic soon. I've got to run right now.

 

[Fulhead Land]

If you don't trust us, that's your problem. I fail to see how we could possibly hold a trial in this region with "secret evidence",

How about when Tresville declared I was a war criminal back on the old forums, and banned me from RA ship and from citizenship and from elections, based on evidence that STILL hasnt materialised! Did that even exist? If it did, i think secret evidence is a fitting terminology!

 

[Poltsamaa]

I've not asked for the NPIA to be disbanded, I have asked for their role to be clarified and to also have some indication that the members of the NPIA (whoever they are!!) are accountable to someone!! I truly fear that contrived charges of treason will be used to remove undesirables from the Regional Assembly based on "secret evidence" or worse still non-existant "evidence" for the purpose of ensuring certain bills pass the Regional Assembly or to ensure certain parties win elections!!

Then why are we still arguing? We've answered your questions, just read the Constitution. If you don't trust us, that's your problem. I fail to see how we could possibly hold a trial in this region with "secret evidence", when all trials have to be done by jury and in public. Use common sense, Polts, it's all here in the topic for you, you just haven't read it.

The NPIA's "duties are to collect and analyze confidential intelligence information for the benefit of the Regional Government and the region as a whole," according to the Constitution. As for accountability, "The Prime Minister shall be responsible to the Cabinet and the Regional Assembly for the ongoing oversight of the Agency." It's in the Constitution, it's already been posted here once. What more do you want?

Haor, sorry, I'll work on splitting the topic soon. I've got to run right now.

I suggest you read the legislation I referred to that was the cause of my concern, Hersfold!! It is clear that people will be stripped of their RA status BEFORE a trial commences if they are accused of treason!! The "evidence" would be secret until it is disclosed in trial, if ever!! Refer to the incident I also mentioned under Tresville's government where to this day no evidence has been forthcoming and a nation was denied Registered Voter status based on "NPIA evidence"!!

I provided clear and concise reasons for my concern and you have neglected to read any of it instead citing the Constitution which I had not raised as a concern!!

I'd appreciate it if you actually countered my concerns rather than posting information that has no relevance or bearing on what I said!! Perhaps then your patronising manner might actually carry some weigh backed up by having a point!!