mr_sniffles
TNPer
Art. 3, Section 2:
FD - Merging Ministries
- Thread starter mr_sniffles
- Start date
dont pick it up
TNPer
Im not a big fan of this to be honest, because I fail to see how this is changes the status quo. Sure we have one less ministery but I feel its a mask on the problem not a fix.
Also, as MoC I really don't Like how letter C is getting crossed out. Sure most of the cabinet vote is public, but there is room to fit what the cabinet has done in the Wire, and its something, IMO, that should be reported on.
Also, as MoC I really don't Like how letter C is getting crossed out. Sure most of the cabinet vote is public, but there is room to fit what the cabinet has done in the Wire, and its something, IMO, that should be reported on.
mr_sniffles
TNPer
You can still do that, just get a reporter to fill it in with the drama and quotes of the moment. But for raw facts, like the actual vote count and other things like that, just click the public cabinet thread.
Grosseschnauzer
TNPer
I don't believe we're ready to go forward with this proposal yet. The TNPU Commission is in place working on its mandate, and there's already some discussion about some current subforums being moved to the Culture and Education area. This suggests to me that the proposal to eliminate the MoCE is premature.
mr_sniffles
TNPer
This proposal phases out the MoCE at the next election, not wiping everything out immediately.
The university doesn't need to be run by any Ministry, let the Cabinet (or the MoC or the MoCE individually) have the power to appoint or remove a Dean, who serves an indefinite term, and set up a University area of the forum. Seems to me that would work better anyway, since you would have more continuity and have more confidence that the person running the University has the position because that is what they want to do.
Grosseschnauzer
TNPer
I've said before and I will say again that until the Commission settles upon what the governance structure should be, I do not want any avenues foreclosed in the meandtime.
And the fact that this proposal would take effect at the next election is a immaterial factor. If, and again I am posing a hypothetical, the Commission felt that the MoCE was the best place for a governmental connection to the University to be locted, then it should feel free to propose that without foreclosing options.
I think the MoC has plenty to do as it is, or should have in any event, so I'm not convinced that is the appropriate place for the MoCE functions.
I'm not convinced that the case has been made to retain the MoAE as its functions seem to be almost totally moderation duties, Why not deal with that Ministry and whether it should be in the government first?
(I'm not saying it should or it shouldn't just that this proposal pre-supposes what a thorough review would find. Since that thorough review of all three ministries has yet to occur, I think that this solution, as the saying goes, is putting the cart before the horse.
If you like, Heft, I'm willing to appoint another commission to focus on all three Ministries; I'll even agree to appoint you to be one of its members.
And the fact that this proposal would take effect at the next election is a immaterial factor. If, and again I am posing a hypothetical, the Commission felt that the MoCE was the best place for a governmental connection to the University to be locted, then it should feel free to propose that without foreclosing options.
I think the MoC has plenty to do as it is, or should have in any event, so I'm not convinced that is the appropriate place for the MoCE functions.
I'm not convinced that the case has been made to retain the MoAE as its functions seem to be almost totally moderation duties, Why not deal with that Ministry and whether it should be in the government first?
(I'm not saying it should or it shouldn't just that this proposal pre-supposes what a thorough review would find. Since that thorough review of all three ministries has yet to occur, I think that this solution, as the saying goes, is putting the cart before the horse.
If you like, Heft, I'm willing to appoint another commission to focus on all three Ministries; I'll even agree to appoint you to be one of its members.
I wasn't necessarily arguing in favor of this proposal, just pointing out that the MoCE isn't really necessary for the University (and, in my opinion, having the head of the university change every three months probably isn't the best way to go about it), though I would definitely like to see some consolidating of the Cabinet. The trick isn't necessarily to move responsibilities around, but to put those responsibilities in a position where they will be most likely to actually be carried out.
I agree that there isn't really much need for the A&E, and it should either be removed or consolidated with one of the others. I'm not really sure what the purpose of having a commission to study the three positions would be, exactly. So, a little expansion on that would be helpful?
I agree that there isn't really much need for the A&E, and it should either be removed or consolidated with one of the others. I'm not really sure what the purpose of having a commission to study the three positions would be, exactly. So, a little expansion on that would be helpful?
Grosseschnauzer
TNPer
Virtually all of the discussion about changes in the composition of the Cabinet has been focused on these three ministries.
I don't think there has been an overwhelming consensus about it. And I don't believe all of the responsibilities of the three ministries could be, or should be consolidated into one ministry.
One could argue, for instance, some might argue that the MoC shouldn't be involved in news gathering because shoud be outside the government given the freedom that exists in a democracy. Similar arguments have been made about the MoAE and the MoCE.
What hasn't been done is a thorough breakdown of the functions, and trying to see if there is a logical way to change it without overloading any particular ministry. And if some tasks are going to be shifted to forum administration only then that needs to be discussed with forum administration.
(And by the way, I don't expect that the MoCE will necessarily be the day-to-day head of the university, but would be a check on the university, responsive to the RA and the rest of the Cabinet.)
I don't think there has been an overwhelming consensus about it. And I don't believe all of the responsibilities of the three ministries could be, or should be consolidated into one ministry.
One could argue, for instance, some might argue that the MoC shouldn't be involved in news gathering because shoud be outside the government given the freedom that exists in a democracy. Similar arguments have been made about the MoAE and the MoCE.
What hasn't been done is a thorough breakdown of the functions, and trying to see if there is a logical way to change it without overloading any particular ministry. And if some tasks are going to be shifted to forum administration only then that needs to be discussed with forum administration.
(And by the way, I don't expect that the MoCE will necessarily be the day-to-day head of the university, but would be a check on the university, responsive to the RA and the rest of the Cabinet.)
Zemnaya Svoboda
TNPer
I like the presence of many ministries for the greater chance to get into a ministry. Although Heft's idea of more delegation makes sense...
Alright, I see. The commission idea makes sense, then, and I'd willing to help with that. Figuring out exactly what the various responsibilities are and should be for the ministries would definitely be an important first step in re-organizing them (if that is what we are working towards, which it seems to be).
Grosseschnauzer
TNPer
Give me a day or two, and I'll figure out who else to ask to work on this topic. To be clear, this will not involve all of the Ministries, just the Ministries of Communication, Arts and Entertainment, and Culture and Education.
In the meantime, if there are any members of the RA who are interested in serving on this commission, please post here or send me a PM. (That does not guarantee you'll be appointed, as I want to keep the size small enough to be effective, and I want to include ome of those who have held these three posts in the past.)
In the meantime, if there are any members of the RA who are interested in serving on this commission, please post here or send me a PM. (That does not guarantee you'll be appointed, as I want to keep the size small enough to be effective, and I want to include ome of those who have held these three posts in the past.)
Grosseschnauzer
TNPer
I wanted to formally notify the Regional Assembly directly that I have appointed a commision to study the functions that have been or should be assigned to the current Ministry of Communications, Ministry of Art and Entertainment, and Ministry of Culture and Education. The formal announcement can be found here (click me).
The members of the Commission are Heft, Hersfold, North harmoneia, and John Ashcroft Land. Each of these four individuals either have served or currently serve as the Minister for one of these three Ministries. I felt that in general, a better work product would come from a Commission if those appointed to it had held at least one of the Ministries in the past. It is fortuitous that a current Minister and the root administrator of this forum had held one or another of these Ministries in the past, but it does simplify the exchange of ideas in terms of functions which might better be transferred out of the Cabinet.
I will also note that invitations for appointment were extended to a couple of others who have previously served as Minister in one or more of these three Ministries, but they did not respond to the invitation. If I hear from them in the near future, i would be willing to add them to the Commission.
In the meantime, I am now formally requesting that further consideration of this proposal in the Regional Assembly be deferred until the Commission files a report, and I am able for forward the report with any recommendations. The subforum for the commission will be set up shortly, and I am sure that the Ministry Study Commission would welcome input as to the study and analysis it is to undertake.
The members of the Commission are Heft, Hersfold, North harmoneia, and John Ashcroft Land. Each of these four individuals either have served or currently serve as the Minister for one of these three Ministries. I felt that in general, a better work product would come from a Commission if those appointed to it had held at least one of the Ministries in the past. It is fortuitous that a current Minister and the root administrator of this forum had held one or another of these Ministries in the past, but it does simplify the exchange of ideas in terms of functions which might better be transferred out of the Cabinet.
I will also note that invitations for appointment were extended to a couple of others who have previously served as Minister in one or more of these three Ministries, but they did not respond to the invitation. If I hear from them in the near future, i would be willing to add them to the Commission.
In the meantime, I am now formally requesting that further consideration of this proposal in the Regional Assembly be deferred until the Commission files a report, and I am able for forward the report with any recommendations. The subforum for the commission will be set up shortly, and I am sure that the Ministry Study Commission would welcome input as to the study and analysis it is to undertake.
Grosseschnauzer
TNPer
i anticipate being able to post the final report with recommended legislative language of the Ministry Study Commission by sometime tomorrow (Sunday) night (ET). It will be posted in this thread at that time.
It will involve language amending Article III Section 2, Paragraphs 7, 8, and 9 of the Constitution, an amendment to TNP Law 6, and a list proposing disposition of the subforms currently assigned to Communications, Arts and Entertainment, and Culture and Education,
It will involve language amending Article III Section 2, Paragraphs 7, 8, and 9 of the Constitution, an amendment to TNP Law 6, and a list proposing disposition of the subforms currently assigned to Communications, Arts and Entertainment, and Culture and Education,
mr_sniffles
TNPer
we're all salivating at the prospect.
Grosseschnauzer
TNPer
This is the text of the final report and recommendations of the Ministry Study Commission, as posted in the Prime Minister's Office this evening.
I propose that these recommended changes be substituted for the original proposal to "merge ministries." This package amends Article III, Section 2 of the Constitution, amends TNP Law 6, and includes a list of recommendations concerning a number of the subforums currently in use at the official forums.
I propose that these recommended changes be substituted for the original proposal to "merge ministries." This package amends Article III, Section 2 of the Constitution, amends TNP Law 6, and includes a list of recommendations concerning a number of the subforums currently in use at the official forums.
Haor Chall
The Power of the Dark Side
- TNP Nation
- Haor Chall
Looks good. I like it, it might be a good idea to get it up to vote before the next election cycle begins though.
mental imagination
TNPer
As posted someplace else.
I feel a old Beatles song coming on.
Hint 3 words 3 syllables.
I feel a old Beatles song coming on.
Hint 3 words 3 syllables.
mr_sniffles
TNPer
Queries:
What exactly will the MoCE be doing that the commissoner of the University won't be?
How will this relate better to what the Ministries currently do than what they're "legislated" to do?
How do we reconcile the fact that the MoAE still has more to do than the MoCE (more than theory)?
What exactly will the MoCE be doing that the commissoner of the University won't be?
How will this relate better to what the Ministries currently do than what they're "legislated" to do?
How do we reconcile the fact that the MoAE still has more to do than the MoCE (more than theory)?
Grosseschnauzer
TNPer
The Minister of Culture and Education would be the chair of the Board of Regents, which will be the policymaking body of the University. As chair, the MoCE would be the communication interface between the University's Board of Regent and the Cabinet and the RA.
The MoCE would have shared mod powers in the University''s subforums, as a pratical matter.
There is no Commissioner of the University, there will be a chancellor and a board of regents. (The Chancellor would be the chief administrator of the University.)
I don't know that the MoCE would still have less to do than the MoAe, the opinions of the Study Commission members was that the MoAE was totally unnecessary, and that those forums could and should be handled by the forum administration outside of the government.
The MoCE would have shared mod powers in the University''s subforums, as a pratical matter.
There is no Commissioner of the University, there will be a chancellor and a board of regents. (The Chancellor would be the chief administrator of the University.)
I don't know that the MoCE would still have less to do than the MoAe, the opinions of the Study Commission members was that the MoAE was totally unnecessary, and that those forums could and should be handled by the forum administration outside of the government.
mr_sniffles
TNPer
thank you.
mental imagination
TNPer
Yes indeed.
I am not happy about the prospect of abolishing the position of MoAE.
I think the commission looked at the government structure based on the day-to-day tasks and responsibilities of each position. What they failed to recognize was the role of the MoAE as a representative of an important segment of this community. Historically, the minister with a finger on the pulse of the OOC has brought a balance to the cabinet. (or is that imbalance?) Either way, it is frequently a fresh perspective.
Having the position available has also served to encourage those who might not ordinarily make a bid for election to get more involved in the government.
Finally, in a formal way, having a MoAE is recognition of the importance we place on the Arts and Entertainment, and the pride we have in hosting THE BEST OOC forum in NS.
I think the commission looked at the government structure based on the day-to-day tasks and responsibilities of each position. What they failed to recognize was the role of the MoAE as a representative of an important segment of this community. Historically, the minister with a finger on the pulse of the OOC has brought a balance to the cabinet. (or is that imbalance?) Either way, it is frequently a fresh perspective.
Having the position available has also served to encourage those who might not ordinarily make a bid for election to get more involved in the government.
Finally, in a formal way, having a MoAE is recognition of the importance we place on the Arts and Entertainment, and the pride we have in hosting THE BEST OOC forum in NS.
Upper Kirby
TNPer
What she said, but more zazz.
Emperor Matthuis
TNPer
I agree with everything GBM has just said.
We also have the best MoAE in NationStates.
We also have the best MoAE in NationStates.
Grosseschnauzer
TNPer
Basically there are only two alternatives available:
To devide the constitutional amendment into two parts, one to revise the stated responsibilities of the Minister of Communications (which I believe is necessary in any event since the current language is outdated, and the second to delete the Ministry of Arts and Entertainment. These two parts are not conceptually related.
The other alternative is to leave the constitutional amendment as it is, and have the second vote on the same package.
I am bothered by the fact that the ojections to the proposal to eliminate Arts and Entertainment as a Ministry were not expressed until after voting begin. It was posted for about a week as FD befre the vote opened, so it is hard to respond ex post facto to the objections.
So should the remaining parts of the proposal be divided?
To devide the constitutional amendment into two parts, one to revise the stated responsibilities of the Minister of Communications (which I believe is necessary in any event since the current language is outdated, and the second to delete the Ministry of Arts and Entertainment. These two parts are not conceptually related.
The other alternative is to leave the constitutional amendment as it is, and have the second vote on the same package.
I am bothered by the fact that the ojections to the proposal to eliminate Arts and Entertainment as a Ministry were not expressed until after voting begin. It was posted for about a week as FD befre the vote opened, so it is hard to respond ex post facto to the objections.
So should the remaining parts of the proposal be divided?
Emperor Matthuis
TNPer
Dividing the proposal is in my view, a better solution because deleting the MoAE ministry is causing a lot of opposition.
mr_sniffles
TNPer
I can understand the importance in strengthening the MoAE by removing it from government interference or even distractions. But if this is the main obstacle (as I can't see any else) then perhaps we could mold the MoCE with the MoAE or make the MoAE an appointed position but with the expressed consent of the RA, as in PM's choice and vacancy procedures. No say in cabinet or government affairs (as it is in another world technically) though still accountable from tyranny (as we all know, seemingly harmless jokes about fish are always a precursor of the impending revolution with the most cuthroat of means.)
Sorry about weighing in so late on the discussion. I think the revision to the MoC duties is just fine. I'm sure it would pass on its own.
The MoAE should have a vote in the Cabinet. The notion that is "another world" is precisely the reason why that Minister's voice is important.
Edited to respond to Mr. Sniffles.
The MoAE should have a vote in the Cabinet. The notion that is "another world" is precisely the reason why that Minister's voice is important.
Edited to respond to Mr. Sniffles.
Grosseschnauzer
TNPer
Based upon the comments, I propose to divide the proposed constitutiona amendments into three parts. The first one amends the duties of the Ministry of Communications, as proposed by the Ministry Study Commission; the second one reflects the Commission's proposal to eiminate the Ministry of Arts and Entertainment; and the third one amends the duties of the Ministry of Culture and Education.
Amendments to Article III, Section 2, paragraphs 7 to 9 of the Constitution:
Does this meet everyone's approval (as in, voting on the three changes separately in the second vote?
Amendments to Article III, Section 2, paragraphs 7 to 9 of the Constitution:
Does this meet everyone's approval (as in, voting on the three changes separately in the second vote?
Haor Chall
The Power of the Dark Side
- TNP Nation
- Haor Chall
Well, I guess. To me it would make sense to roll the MoAE responsabilities into the MoCE (and change the name perhaps, MoAC or something).
Grosseschnauzer
TNPer
HC. from where I'm seeing things, the primary focus of the MoCE is on the E (for Education) these days.
(As an aside, I hope we get strongcandidates for the MoCE since whoever is elected will have a strong role to play in the start-up of the TNPU.)
(As an aside, I hope we get strongcandidates for the MoCE since whoever is elected will have a strong role to play in the start-up of the TNPU.)
Haor Chall
The Power of the Dark Side
- TNP Nation
- Haor Chall
Well, it could be "arts and education" or "entertainment and education" if you prefer.
Whilst I agree with you, since the majority of legwork regarding the uni falls to the Chancellor/Board of Regents, I'm sure the Minister in question would be able to handle both that part of things as well as the current "A&E" things as well. They are both, lets be honest, the Ministries which require the least work to keep running (as it currently stands) and I do wonder if the Minister in question actually had more stuff to do they might be better in the activity stakes.
Whilst I agree with you, since the majority of legwork regarding the uni falls to the Chancellor/Board of Regents, I'm sure the Minister in question would be able to handle both that part of things as well as the current "A&E" things as well. They are both, lets be honest, the Ministries which require the least work to keep running (as it currently stands) and I do wonder if the Minister in question actually had more stuff to do they might be better in the activity stakes.
Grosseschnauzer
TNPer
The MoCE is the chair of the TNPU Board of Regents, and votes where there are ties. So the MoCE's role in TNPU is approximatey equal to the Speaker's role in the Security Council.
The reai question is why the person handling the A&E has to be a minister. There is no suggestions to eliminate the A&E forums themselves, and there is no reason why forum administration can't add another Gobal Mod, if need be, to provide sufficient moderation in those particular subforums. The discussion with respect to the other ministries, at least for now, appears more settled.
If the Study Commission accomplished nothing ese, it has focused the discussion, which was not the case previously. Now the discussion is focused on Arts and Entertainment-- whether it should remain as a ministry. be aboished, or be merged. That, to me, narrows the conversation from the wide range of suggestions that we had before, and to which there was nothing near a majority opinion on any particuar alternative. In addition, the changes offered by the Study Commission has allowed an updating of the statements of the responsibiities of the Ministry of Communications, and the Ministry of Culture and Education in the Constitution, and TNP Law 6, and that is a good thing as well.
The reai question is why the person handling the A&E has to be a minister. There is no suggestions to eliminate the A&E forums themselves, and there is no reason why forum administration can't add another Gobal Mod, if need be, to provide sufficient moderation in those particular subforums. The discussion with respect to the other ministries, at least for now, appears more settled.
If the Study Commission accomplished nothing ese, it has focused the discussion, which was not the case previously. Now the discussion is focused on Arts and Entertainment-- whether it should remain as a ministry. be aboished, or be merged. That, to me, narrows the conversation from the wide range of suggestions that we had before, and to which there was nothing near a majority opinion on any particuar alternative. In addition, the changes offered by the Study Commission has allowed an updating of the statements of the responsibiities of the Ministry of Communications, and the Ministry of Culture and Education in the Constitution, and TNP Law 6, and that is a good thing as well.
mental imagination
TNPer
In response to the elimination of a office in question.
As I see it you have had the MoA&E for some time now. This is one of the few if not the only region that has such a position for the A & E section of your forum. The reason I and a few others like this forum is because of the uniqueness of this position.
This position has given me a chance to actively read up on all the positions in this forum and has given me a clear perspective as to what the youth thinks of real world politics and as how it is taken seriously by your group as to making sense of this jumbled up mess called Government. I have pulled a few small stunts as modirator while I was in this position and have seen the way this group has handled the situaion. (two thumbs up in my book) There was no hand slapping but a reminder to the rules of said position and the appropriate action that should be taken (again another 2 thumbs up). (A complement for those who can not see what I heard.)
This position gives a person who has either gotten frustrated with the way politics is handled and wants to get reacquainted through this forum,or is a new comer who is given the chance to participate with a group of people who still believe in the system as a whole believing in the rights of the group as a whole. But now I am beginning to loose faith in what the people of this forum believe in.
This reminds me of a bunch of so called politicians sitting around bored and looking to loose weight in one area and put it in another area. *reminds me of a old song. "lets do the shuffle."
If my pleas of keeping this position open fall on deaf ears then as I said earlier with an off the wall plea (quoting a Beatles Song) Let it be.
Then here is my suggestion of said name for merge.
Minister of
Arts and
Communication =MAC
I have waited until now to see if other people who are long time standing players make a stand.
Enough said from the rambling fool.
M I? the fool or is this government the true fool?
You are now returned to your daily regiment of active duty.
mental imagination
TNPer
Hmmm.
mr_sniffles
TNPer
Legally, this is to return to a vote on the 27th. So get your last words, stones, and bombs in before the cut off date!!
Haor Chall
The Power of the Dark Side
- TNP Nation
- Haor Chall
The problem is, whilst I appreciate where MI is coming from we haven't managed to fill all the positions in the government as it is and we rarely actually have competition in elections, so the MoAE position does seem unnecessary in that light- there is no reason why the responsibilities of the MoAE (which are largely OOC) can't be handled as part of forum administration. As for the suggestion that this is just a shuffle, I don't understand how you reached that conclusion-even if it moves some of the responsabilties around this proposal would remove a ministry position completely (there would be one less Minister- the parts of the MoAE would be given to an existing ministry not a new one). Kinda the opposite of what John Reid wants to do with the Home Office.
Heck, if you wanted, you could have one of the GMods specifically an OOC/AE mod, so you'd kinda have an MoAE just not as part of the cabinet. Other than that, as I suggested before, you could roll the MoAE and the MoCE (as they are easily the two least worked ministrys) together. We just don't need the MoAE and we don't seem to have sufficient people to fulfill the number of government positions we have currently. The MoIIA, the MoEA and MoD have masses to do, whilst the other Ministrys do far less, it makes sense therefore to merge some of the smaller Ministrys together.
This isn't proposing removing the OOC forums, or in anyway "downgrading" them or reducing them in their importance to the region. What it is is a realisation we don't need to have to have a Minister to fulfill the duties the MoAE does and that we currently have too many Ministrys to fill as it is.
Heck, if you wanted, you could have one of the GMods specifically an OOC/AE mod, so you'd kinda have an MoAE just not as part of the cabinet. Other than that, as I suggested before, you could roll the MoAE and the MoCE (as they are easily the two least worked ministrys) together. We just don't need the MoAE and we don't seem to have sufficient people to fulfill the number of government positions we have currently. The MoIIA, the MoEA and MoD have masses to do, whilst the other Ministrys do far less, it makes sense therefore to merge some of the smaller Ministrys together.
This isn't proposing removing the OOC forums, or in anyway "downgrading" them or reducing them in their importance to the region. What it is is a realisation we don't need to have to have a Minister to fulfill the duties the MoAE does and that we currently have too many Ministrys to fill as it is.