Lexicon (again)

Flemingovia

Flemingovia

TNPer
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There are those who feel that there may be some in the Lexicon who would be open to the idea of a peace treaty, or somthing to end the war. What have others heard, and what do others think?
 
Unless it comes from someone who actually runs the lexicon is there much point.....

And I thought we had already accepted the war as over???
 
I've been working with Cartwrightia, Councilor of External Affairs for The Lexicon and we have come up with a draft proposal:

Peace Treaty between The North Pacific and The Lexicon
RECOGNISING that both The North Pacific and The Lexicon consider themselves to be at war with each other.
AGREEING that the large scale conflict the combatants are heading toward is in the interest of no-one.
ACCEPTING that the conflict was caused in equal measure by each combatant.
NOTING that neither combatant has been more successful than the other,
both parties agree that they are neither the victor nor the loser.

IT IS AGREED by both parties that:
a) this treaty shall bring an end to the conflict.
b.) all hostile actions are to cease and desist upon the signing of this agreement by both parties
c) each region shall open a consulate for the other to further the knowledge of and relationship between their former enemy.
d) these consulates shall be free of propaganda and abusive or otherwise insulting language, policed if needs be by moderators and/or administrators
e) nations are free to take part in both regions and shall not be refused membership due to events taking place during the conflict

Signed:
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Questions? Comments? Suggestions?
 
Do we have a "butt-kissing" smilie I can use here?

I thought we said we did not recognize a war? This treaty says we do.

I don't think we're heading toward any large-scale conflict do you?

And what's up with the "equal measure" bit? The spin is making me dizzy. :spin:

Bah, as far as I'm concerned we don't need to sign anything. Their consulate was closed at the request of IP. If they want to re-open it now, they can just ask politely.
 
I'd like to see something more like an apology from the high council.....

I agree with GBM as to the spin on this document.....they gotta be kidding....

NOTING that that neither combatant has been more successful than the other
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....don't make me laugh.....

If they want to sue for peace....fair enough....but an admittance of guilt and the aforementioned apology....and recognition of their absolute failure to even continue the war in the face of TNP apathy.....maybe then I'd consider putting our collective name to a treaty....


Obviously just a personal opinion and in no way indicative of TNP policy.....

Dai....
 
ACCEPTING that the conflict was caused in equal measure by each combatant.
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An easier way to do that is to come to a "no-fault" arrangement.

Such as: "ACCEPTING that the settlement of this conflict is beneficial to both parties, all hostilities shall cease with the understanding that no fault shall be assigned to any party in relation to the causes of the conflict or actions resulting from the conflict."

[edited by me to remove bad choice of words. :blush: ]
 
I don't really see how things are currently escalating toward a large-scale conflict, and I thought the entire mess was started because it was to the interest of the lexicon leadership.

Under this document, would the current trial of Fulhead Land be seen as a hostile action?
 
Limitless Events:
I've been working with Cartwrightia, Councilor of External Affairs for The Lexicon and we have come up with a draft proposal:

Peace Treaty between The North Pacific and The Lexicon
RECOGNISING that both The North Pacific and The Lexicon consider themselves to be at war with each other.
AGREEING that the large scale conflict the combatants are heading toward is in the interest of no-one.
ACCEPTING that the conflict was caused in equal measure by each combatant.
NOTING that neither combatant has been more successful than the other,
both parties agree that they are neither the victor nor the loser.

IT IS AGREED by both parties that:
a) this treaty shall bring an end to the conflict.
b.) all hostile actions are to cease and desist upon the signing of this agreement by both parties
c) each region shall open a consulate for the other to further the knowledge of and relationship between their former enemy.
d) these consulates shall be free of propaganda and abusive or otherwise insulting language, policed if needs be by moderators and/or administrators
e) nations are free to take part in both regions and shall not be refused membership due to events taking place during the conflict

Signed:
Click to expand...

Questions? Comments? Suggestions?
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I'm uncomfortable with MoIIA negotiating a peace treaty with a foreign region w/o the express cooperation of the MoEA, especially with the backlog of nations still not masked and accepted in the RA.

Also, a peace treaty to a war which never happened? Just because we all got excited and expected a NEW Coke doesn't really mean that a NEW Coke was ever really here.
 
THere is no way I would approve of this document for several reasons:

First, we do not cinsider ourselves to be at war with the lexicon. That ended with the declaration by the previous administration.

Second, we are not headed towards a large-scale conflict. Implying so gives the lexicon credit beyond their ability, and could gives the impression we are running shit-scared of them and signing this to avoid them hurting us.

Third "ACCEPTING that the conflict was caused in equal measure by each combatant." - that bit was a joke, right? They declared war on us with little reason and no provocation. We have asked for evidence to support the accusations many times, without response. I am not going to accept equal blame for something that we did not want and did not cause.

Fourth, section E could be used to argue for the return of IP and/or Cathyy to the regional assembly or the forum. They were forum banned for flaming, not for warfare, and that ain't going to change. the result would only be wrangling and legal arguments. The wording of that section is way too loose. "membership" of what? of the RA? of the forum? of the girl scouts?

But my bigger question is this:

Limi, you are minsiter of Internal Affairs of this region. What on earth are you doing working with a government minister of another region on a treaty between us without even the courtesy of mentioning the fact to myself, to the Minister of External Affairs (whose job this is), or to the cabinet as a whole before an agreement was drafted?

Even of you consider yourself to have been working as a private citizen, when we accept a ministry we also accept that all our words and actions will have official overtones. This will play in the lexicon as minister-level discussions, when you have not been authorised in any way to carry out such discussion.

You have gone way beyond your brief here, and behind our backs.

A while ago (before I was part of the government) I casually asked members of the Lexicon what would be needed to end the war. I got well roasted on their forum for not using official channels, and OTUS got banned by the Lexicon for passing my questions on.

If Cartwrighia wants to talk about peace, he cannot cherry-pick which minister he talks to. He comes officially to me or to Haor Chall as MOEA. End of story.
 
Limi...I think cartwrightia is taking the mick and dragging you into controversy....

I can appreciate what you have tried to do....but flem is right MoEA should have been contacted way before this stage....
 
So, to return to the original purpose of this thread. I think we can see from Limi/Cartwrightia's document the shape of a peace agreement that would be acceptable to the lexicon.

If the Lexicon were to officially and properly approach us with a suggestion of peace, would we be open to their approach, and under what terms?

Or would the desire of this government be to make official approach to the Lexicon at this time?
 
In all reality, probably the best way to deal with The Lexicon is to ignore them altogether unless they approach us in a rational and civil manner.
 
Great Bights Mum:
Do we have a "butt-kissing" smilie I can use here?

I thought we said we did not recognize a war? This treaty says we do.

I don't think we're heading toward any large-scale conflict do you?

And what's up with the "equal measure" bit? The spin is making me dizzy. :spin:

Bah, as far as I'm concerned we don't need to sign anything. Their consulate was closed at the request of IP. If they want to re-open it now, they can just ask politely.
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QFT

AGAINST this treaty.
 
Just because I'm feeling it...

Peace Treaty between The North Pacific and The Lexicon
RECOGNISING that both The North Pacific and The Lexicon consider themselves to be at war with each other.
Click to expand...
We do not recognize this war. We haven't since the new cabinet was elected, and I doubt that we even thought of it as a war before that...

AGREEING that the large scale conflict the combatants are heading toward is in the interest of no-one.
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The only "large-scale conflict" we're headed towards is one that the Lexicon might be planning.

ACCEPTING that the conflict was caused in equal measure by each combatant.
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Bullshit. A total fabrication. They declare "war" on us and we say "that's nice." Doesn't really constitute "equal measure," does it?

NOTING that neither combatant has been more successful than the other,
both parties agree that they are neither the victor nor the loser.
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CONSIDERING that their "Unendorse FEC" campaign went over like a brick and their childish "forum bombing runs" did nothing but make them look like total assholes, I'd say that this is inaccurate. At the very least.

IT IS AGREED by both parties that:
a) this treaty shall bring an end to the conflict.
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It's hard to end something that never started.
b.) all hostile actions are to cease and desist upon the signing of this agreement by both parties
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So the Lexicon will stop carrying on this pointless exercise? Wowxxorz!!!!!1
c) each region shall open a consulate for the other to further the knowledge of and relationship between their former enemy.
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Insane Power chose to close their consulate. If they wish to reopen it, the channels are present, they need to only ask.
d) these consulates shall be free of propaganda and abusive or otherwise insulting language, policed if needs be by moderators and/or administrators
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More moderation is not the solution to this problem.
e) nations are free to take part in both regions and shall not be refused membership due to events taking place during the conflict
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You mean we're going to quit barring Lexiconians from being members here? And all their posting restrictions will be lifted? We'll quit censoring their posts and deleting threads they create? Wait a minute...

Questions?
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Did you say "hey, write me out a peace treaty that spells out the total opposite of what happened?"
Comments?
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Leave diplomacy to the MoEA.
Suggestions?
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Scrap this farcical garbage.l
 
mr_sniffles:
And that's Roman, Flem, HC, and OPA for a no right?
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What does it matter?

If we have a peace treaty to sign, it will go before the RA. This isn't.

I've spoken with Cartwrightia. Who is conferring with the Lexiconian High Council. I will keep the cabinet informed.
 
Haor Chall:
mr_sniffles:
And that's Roman, Flem, HC, and OPA for a no right?
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What does it matter?

If we have a peace treaty to sign, it will go before the RA. This isn't.

I've spoken with Cartwrightia. Who is conferring with the Lexiconian High Council. I will keep the cabinet informed.
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I'm talking about a Cabinet Vote on the Staggered Justice Terms amendment which Cabinet is ignoring and the fact that this peace treaty has been rejected by Cabinet thus no need to get the RA involved.
 
How does this look? I've stolen Roman's 'no fault' thing, hope you don't mind. ;)

Thoughts?

Peace Treaty between The North Pacific and The Lexicon

RECOGNISING the current conflict between The North Pacific and The Lexicon.
ACCEPTING that the settlement of this conflict is beneficial to both parties, all hostilities shall cease with the understanding that no fault shall be assigned to any party in relation to the causes of the conflict or actions resulting from the conflict.

IT IS AGREED by both parties that:
a) this treaty shall bring an end to the conflict.
b.) all hostile actions are to cease and desist upon the signing of this agreement by both parties.
c) each region shall open a consulate for the other to further the knowledge of and relationship between their former enemy.
Click to expand...
 
Posting as NPIA Director:

You lot may have noticed a definite upswing in the number of Lexiconers applying for RA membership - just before election time too, btw. They're all too late to run for office, fortunately, but Fulhead's trial will not be over before elections. He will be able to run for office, something which could present a security threat if we do not find some way to stop them coming in. Even if Fulhead doesn't run, I'm not too comfortable with them hanging around, especially when we've made it very clear they're no longer welcoem here.

I am considering moving an agent into the Lexicon to find out what's going on. Should any sort of peace treaty be passed, it is not likely to influence my decision. I do not trust these people any further than I can throw them, and I definitely think that signing a peace treaty is a bad idea - especially when they appear to have no interest in leaving us alone.

The United Federation of Hersfold
Director, The North Pacific Intelligence Agency
 
How about a clause stating non-interference of the others affairs plus a promise to limit their citizens from here. I know it sounds bad but quite frankly we don't want them here, they have no reason to be here, and we don't want them here. (did I say that already because I really can't state that enough.)

Also as long as Fullhead doesn't run for PM, we'd don't have to worry about splitting the vote. If Fullhead runs head on with a native for a ministry, it'd be more of a rallying cry to vote for the other guy.
 
Haor, your suggestion still includes an acknowledgement that we are in conflict with the lecicon, whcih contradicts the statement the previous cabinet issued. I would rather not do that. The conflict is now entirely one sided.

In addition I am concerned that the phrases "this treaty shall bring an end to the conflict....all hostile actions are to cease and desist" are a little vague. For example:

IP and Cathyy have been forum banned for trolling. Would this be considered a hostile action, and would we be required to admit them again?

I am banned on the Lexicon forum in retaliation for this. I think others are too. Would this be overturned by this treaty?

IP, Cathyy are banned on the IRC channel #tnp. Would the channel owner be petitioned to readmit them?

I am banned on the IRC channel #the_lexicon. Would I be expected to be readmitted there?

I am sure there are other areas too. I feel that a loose treaty or statement would lay us open to legal challenges.

Personally, I would rather not have a peace treaty at all. TNP issued a statement some weeks ago saying "as far as we are concerned the war is over." All that is needed is for the Lexicon to issue a similar statement. Then, when the dust has settled, we can open consulates again just as we would with any other region.
 
Sorry to keep posting, and I will remove myself from this discussion if anyone wishes, but...

IP and Cathyy have been forum banned for trolling. Would this be considered a hostile action, and would we be required to admit them again?
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Cathyy has already requested (through BW) that she have her ban lifted, telling BW that she would remove his ban from their forums if he got her back in here. I flatly refused. Sorry, Flem, I forgot to mention that to you.

While IP and Cathyy may offer these ban removals to some people, I highly doubt they are open to all. Even if they were, I would not be surprised if those bans were suddenly put back into place a week later.
 
Just to let you know, EW is actually unbanned from their forum
 
flemingovia:
Haor, your suggestion still includes an acknowledgement that we are in conflict with the lecicon, whcih contradicts the statement the previous cabinet issued. I would rather not do that. The conflict is now entirely one sided.

In addition I am concerned that the phrases "this treaty shall bring an end to the conflict....all hostile actions are to cease and desist" are a little vague. For example:

IP and Cathyy have been forum banned for trolling. Would this be considered a hostile action, and would we be required to admit them again?

I am banned on the Lexicon forum in retaliation for this. I think others are too. Would this be overturned by this treaty?

IP, Cathyy are banned on the IRC channel #tnp. Would the channel owner be petitioned to readmit them?

I am banned on the IRC channel #the_lexicon. Would I be expected to be readmitted there?

I am sure there are other areas too. I feel that a loose treaty or statement would lay us open to legal challenges.

Personally, I would rather not have a peace treaty at all. TNP issued a statement some weeks ago saying "as far as we are concerned the war is over." All that is needed is for the Lexicon to issue a similar statement. Then, when the dust has settled, we can open consulates again just as we would with any other region.
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Well the previous cabinet was an arse to release that statement.

Anyway, it does include that acknowledgement. But that is called compromise. Which, unless you are the NPO, is something which happens in diplomacy.

I have made clear to them that forum bans will remain, as they were done by the forum admins which are seperate from the government and that the forum bans were not related to the war but simply admin stuff.
 
PM from Cartwrightia:

Is Flem so set against peace that he has made this stuff up about The Lexicon attacking TNP?

All the delegacy candidates have professed a wish for peace. Voting begins today, and the current High Council are just caretakers. How the hell would this attack work?

I understand the removal of recent Lexi applicants from your RA, since war is nominally still ongoing, but accusing us of an attack while in discussions about peace and during a delegacy election is absurd.

If you feel the need, you can quote this PM on TNP forums - but only in its entirety to avoid statements being taken out of context.

I hope this matter can be resolved without too much mudslinging and radicalisation, although I doubt that my hopes will be realised.

Cartwrightia
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